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Nobody (except the exceptionally wealthy perhaps) buys expensive cars with cash, for a number of reasons. Mine include:
1: Using cash to invest in things that make money, not almost definitely lose money (in some rare cases you can make money on a car, I once sold an M3 CSL for a couple of grand more than I paid for it after ragging it for six months, crazy).
2: Some people want a new car every year or two. This is very easy to arrange with finance as you can often port the finance to another vehicle without much hassle, and don't need to put up with idiots coming to test drive the car you're selling; the dealer or finance firm will come and pick the car up.
3: Liquidity. If I suddenly need money, I can hand the car back and stop paying for it. Sure there is likely to be a penalty and a credit score hit, but I won't have an expensive lump of metal sitting on my drive that I can't afford.
If the rate I'm paying on the finance is greater than the rate that my savings are attracting, for sure I'm losing out, but financing makes "owning" a car pretty much stress free, and you can get some really great deals. I currently drive a Merc S65,you could argue that this sort of car wouldn't exist without financing, as nobody in their right mind would pay that sort of money up front on a car. The monthly payments are surprisingly low and the interest rate on the finance is just 1.8%, while my investments are earning more than this.
Oh and just to add some more fuel to the fire of this thread 🙂 I've owned loads of BMWs over the years and they are absolutely fantastic cars to drive. The engineering is massively superior to the junk that VAG (excepting the skunkworks AUDIs) or the frenchies churn out. RWD makes for a better driving experience.
BUT THEY ARE RUBBISH IS THE SNOW AHAHAAHAHA? When it snows stick winter tires on if you really need to get out and about for the three days a year there's actually snow on the ground, for the other 362 days of the year enjoy the brilliant driving experience RWD gives you 🙂
BMW envy (well any nice car really but BMW seem to suffer from it the most) is a curious thing in this country; back home in the states on more than one occasion I have had strangers come over and start a conversation about a car I'm driving, and the attitude is almost always "Wow I love your car, tell me about it", whereas here in the UK I've had no end of small minded plebs driving aggressively and looking at me with hate in their eyes. Hey it could have been someone from this thread, reading some of these green eyed posts!
The engineering is massively superior to the junk that VAG (excepting the skunkworks AUDIs) or the frenchies churn out
Bo lucks.
Btw I don't envy BMW drivers any more than any other car. I don't drive one, but I'll let you into a secret - I can afford one 🙂
The reason people look at you funny when you are driving one is that conspicuous consumption is not generally admired in this country...
Oh and with regards aggressive driving - the majority (but not all) of the aggressive driving I see here is done by the people in BMWs and Audis - not the other way round. Again, simply an observation.
back home in the states on more than one occasion I have had strangers come over and start a conversation about a car I'm driving
I wonder where you're from. In the UK BMWs are so common that you wouldn't talk to someone about one unless it was a particularly rare one and they were into BMWs.
I think the answer for most of those with "executive cars" is that actually they can't afford them, well as they're mostly on lease agreements they don't own them anyway.
I drive a 51 plate 330d touring and when it's not in the garage having the suspension replaced (again) it's ace. It's as sweet to drive on the motorway as it is on a B-road, goes like stink, has more airbags than I can count, does an average of 44mpg and the straight 6 diesel sounds brilliant.
It's certainly no status symbol but it is a lot of fun to drive.
Whats the mileage on it Wozza?
I think the answer for most of those with "executive cars" is that actually they can't afford them, well as they're mostly on lease agreements they don't own them anyway.
Also if they are company cars, the company will not be paying anywhere near the prices quoted above.
Dear BMW, I'm interested in buying 250 of your finest....
It's as sweet to drive on the motorway as it is on a B-road
Except in winter. 😛
Personally can't understand why someone would be happy shelling out anywhere between £250-£350 a month for what at the end of the day are some pretty mediocre new cars. BMW 316 or 318, Audi 2.0ltr Diesel Estate - hardly cars that set the heart racing are they? Dull, dull, dull. Automotive porridge? Struggling to get my head round it to be honest.Why not spend the money on something nice to drive instead. Sure if you want a BMW for the same money as that new 318i you could have a 4-5 year old M3 Coupe and still have cash to spare to cover the extra fuel and insurance. For less than half the price of a boggo and boring new 2.0 A6 you could get a ten year old RS4 - a car that is no longer depreciating at all.
I just wanted a large car to transport my family and it was marginally cheaper than a mid-spec Mondeo. I have had the nice fast car (TT as most will know 😉 ) and now it is time to get a family car and my opinion is that I don't need something fast, just something practical, should be reliable and is warrantied. We all make our choices for our own reasons.
Regarding leasing - mine is capped at 10k per year but I won't go over that - I just get a car through my business as it is a tax efficient way of getting rid of profit and I get to drive a nice (IMO) car.
And the cars I have always got have been covered by the BRVLA (?) 'fair wear & tear' policy which means small scratches etc are not penalised on hand-over.
Whats the mileage on it Wozza?
About 155,000 with FSH. Paid about £3000 for it a year or so ago.
Except in winter. 😛
He's right you know. Winter driving is a bit "interesting". 😆
ermm no. You're mistaking hate for envy 😉BMW envy
It's because, in the UK, the people who aspire to BMW, Mercs and more recently Audi's tend to <stereotype mode> [i]drive with little care for other road users[/i] </stereotype mode>.
This means that since the 80's (when this attitude kicked in) there has been a massive social negativity to b|00#y minded w@^(£+ drivers.
European BMW drivers are fine and Merc's, BMW and Audi's are all well engineered cars. In the UK it's linked with a certain social mindset.
Which is not to say that I've never come across well mannered drivers of Germanic cars. They are out there but like UFO's there's not many of them.
randomjeremy - Member
RWD makes for a better driving experience.
Why's that?
Mercs? Mercs are for old people. My mum had a very nice E-Class - hardly ever went over 70. Never ever floored it. Whoever got it after she traded it in got a bargain.
The one and only BMW I ever drove had been ragged - and more interestingly had an almost unreadable black speedometer. I'm guessing the previous owner had chosen the trim so that he could negate 'speed management' as much as possible..
BMW envy (well any nice car really but BMW seem to suffer from it the most) is a curious thing in this country
Does it really exist? Seems to me people from all walks of life drive them these days. Same with Mercs and Audis. True, they used to be seen as exotic and even my dad aspired to own a 3 series but I don't think that is the case these days.
European BMW drivers are fine
Not in Spain or Portugal. No-one can drive well in those 2 countries, regardless of vehicle marque.
Try driving in California on the bendy roads. The yanks are so perplexed by the concept of a corner they slow down to 15 mph.
As a bmw driver, its quite unpleasant how anti people are towards the badge, with no real meaning behind their dis-like, as far as I can tell and reading this thread.
Mine is a company car.
It has low Co2 so was a cost effective choice.
I picked the equivalent of a MKI Escort - the 120d for some rear wheel driving fun - I treat it as you would a hire car and it is great to drive - has real soul, versus say a golf gti or similar. Equally I pick my moments and always try to be a courtious road user.
Our family car for ages has been a clapped out Mondeo which is befitting of my earnings, when trying to juggle mortgage, 2 children, wife, biking, etc.
I had a friend in my car tell me cocks drive bmw, which is far from pleasant, yet beyond the car, we rub along well - strange behaviour?
A guy on bikeradar who I was trying to agree a price for a 456ti frame, said if I arrived in a bmw or similar the deal was off, that was an interesting lesson in the art of negotiation for him, as I pointed out I took offence to his comments and withdrew the offer I had made.
Does make me think I might pick a different car when it comes up for renewal to avoid this stigma that comes with driving a bmw. Which is sad, as I like driving them.
randomjeremy - Member
RWD makes for a better driving experience.
Why's that?
At a very basic level because one set of wheels is providing the driving force, and one is providing the steering, rather than one wet of wheels doing everything.
Big Dave - Member
BMW envy (well any nice car really but BMW seem to suffer from it the most) is a curious thing in this country
Does it really exist?
It's alive and well in this thread 😉
"RWD makes for a better driving experience.
Why's that?"
Becuase the car gets pushed forwards rather than scrabbling to pull the car forwards. BMW also used it in their own adverts, the front wheels just steer, rather than having to put power through as well.
The best bit of RWD is in corners though, where rwd helps to give more neutral handling. FWD cars tend to push out wide and understeer out of corners. RWD tuck in and accelerate you out of the corner, helping steer the car round the corner. It just feels nicer and if done with skill can make for a much more rewarding drive.
I assume that most modern cars are FWD for 2 reasons 1. If you go beyond your skill limit in a FWD all that tends to happen is that the car understeers and scrubs off speed. If you go beyond your skill limit in a rwd you can end up in a spin. 2 It costs more to build a chassis that takes power to the rear wheels.
However in real world most people can drive quicker in a FWD than a RWD.
I think the *hate* some people have goes back to the OP question - they assume they cost loads and that the drivers are willy waving. In all honesty I couldn't afford a BMW or Audi - I had looked into an A4 Avant base model and it was out of my price range this time around (£340 per month) and had accepted I would be getting a more modest car - I had looked at Modeos, Insignias (which I really like the look of BTW), Octavias, Mazda 6s etc then (due to really boring reasons) I didn't get around to ordering the Mazda I had decided on and the offer I found had gone, taking the price of it back up to £310 a month. Then the great offer on the Audi came up - it just happened that an Audi main dealer specialising in business leases got a load from Audi ex-stock and were the fully loaded ones. I had no choice on colour but it was cheap.
If someone thinks I am willy waving then go ahead, think that, but they are wrong.
JPcapel the cars aren't the problem its the sales people and detritus that are attracted to the brand to 'tell the world' about themselves.
The cars themselves aren't bad at all.
The other issue is the UK marketing. It really is bad for the brand here in the UK. Strip out the cringeworthy 'power' advertising its actually a lovely proposition.
Hence you can't blame other punters for saying 'BMW's are for cocks' as we see the perception given from the advertising.
Take Audi- they concentrate on quality (i.e. good). Take BMW and previously they have told us that its the ultimate driving machine.
The latest 'joy' makes my skin creep.
I drive a BMW too, but im not a sales person and dont feel like a drive like a cock, but yet because I drive a BMW I am a cock according to a fair few people on this thread!
Haterz gonna hate I guess.......
crispo read the above.
One of my mates used to sell cars for a living. In his time he worked for Jeep, Ford and BMW. One of the reasons he quit working for BMW was that he thought most people who walked in to the showroom had an attitude.
Ironically he now sells construction equipment and he likes to be seen in the blingist Audi he can get.
A guy on bikeradar who I was trying to agree a price for a 456ti frame, said if I arrived in a bmw or similar the deal was off, that was an interesting lesson in the art of negotiation for him, as I pointed out I took offence to his comments and withdrew the offer I had made.
There are some very strange/weird people about with funny attitudes to cars?
I would have borrowed one just for the day to P him off. 😉
I drive a BMW too, but im not a sales person and dont feel like a drive like a cock, but yet because I drive a BMW I am a cock according to a fair few people on this thread!
There's no smoke without fire. 😉
Ten years ago you'd have been safe in assumingthe numpty behind you on the motorway was in a BMW if you couldn't see the grille of his car in your mirrors, nowadays it seems to be Audis. That aside, they are simply well designed and engineered cars especially if you appreciate [i]driving[/i] as opposed to simply getting from A to B. They aren't as far ahead of the opposition as they used to be but are still at the upper end.
Nearly bought one when I was looking last year but TBH I didn't enjoy driving the one I tested (320D Tourer) as much as some other makes. What was surprising was that you could spec up a Mondeo or Insignia to a high level to compare against the BMW & they worked out a similar price (full OTR that is).
The worst attitudes I have seen in showrooms were, by far and away, those in the Mini showroom (which was a huge contributory factor in my wife buying a Mazda 3 four years ago). My business partner also had a pretty rubbish experience with them which made him almost pull out of a purchase at the last minute.
Ohh, and Volvo - asked them to send me a brochure and they told me to look on the website for a PDF download.
Ohh and Honda - told us to come back in the new year (we were looking over the Christmas break) if we wanted to test drive one as they were quiet so were going home early. Err, and you are quiet because...
I've driven a few decent cars as we have a fair variety of pool cars at work, and I've been able to borrow cars occasionally. As a result, I've driven most 3 series sized stuff.
There are two sides to the 3 series. One is the image - "I'm a go getter who needs to sit 6 inches off your back bumper, because I've got a photocopier lease to sell. RAAWR!", and of course Surf Mat, and the actual car.
The other side is the actual car. They're probably about equivalent in terms of reliability, fit and finish, comfort etc. to their competitors. However, they win out on two big points. Firstly, BMWs don't lose much money, and they don't emit a lot of CO2. This makes them fantastic value as company cars. Secondly, the 3 series is streets ahead of the Merc and Audi equivalents to drive. Hugely, massively better. The 320d actually does a decent impression of a big petrol engine, and the car goes round corners.
Some can't seperate the nobby image from the actual motor, which is very, very good.
Funkydunc do you know him as well? If its the same lad hes a top lad/down to earth and warm fella isn't he?
Hora - Lost you there? Do I know who as well?
Figures from 2010:
What Car? 10 most reliable manufacturers:
1. Honda
2. Subaru
3. Mitsubishi
4. Lexus
5. Toyota
6. Mazda
7. Nissan
8. Skoda
9. Kia
10. Mini
Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-1686756/Most-reliable-cars-2010.html#ixzz1XS1Rt6Ai
Which? most reliable new cars
1 Kia Picanto - 98.1%
2 Mazda3 - 97.6%
3 Daihatsu Sirion - 97.0%
3 Honda Insight - 97.0%
5 Honda Jazz - 96.2%
6 Toyota iQ - 96.1%
7 Toyota Prius - 95.4%
8 Volkswagen Golf Plus - 93.3%
8 Mercedes-Benz SLK - 93.3%
10 Mazda2 - 93.2%
Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-1686756/Most-reliable-cars-2010.html#ixzz1XS1c7XfX
Warranty Direct most reliable (Jan 2010):
1 Suzuki
2 Honda
3 Mazda
4 Toyota
5 Skoda
6 Smart
7 Citroen
8 Hyundai
9 Nissan
10 Ford
Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-1686756/Most-reliable-cars-2010.html#ixzz1XS1jfoHN
And now the least reliable (2010):
Which? least reliable new cars
1 Land Rover Discovery 3 - 67.8%
2 BMW 3 Series convertible - 73.9%
3 Hyundai Santa Fe - 75.0%
4 Renault Mégane CC - 75.7%
5 Volkswagen Eos - 75.7%
6 Land Rover Range Rover Sport - 75.8%
7 Jaguar S-type - 76.0%
8 Ford Focus CC - 77.2%
9 Citroën C4 Grand Picasso - 77.4%
10 Volvo S80 - 77.6%
10 Ford S-Max - 77.6%
Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-1686756/Most-reliable-cars-2010.html#ixzz1XS25GF8W
Warranty Direct least reliable (Jan 2010)
1 Jeep
2 Porsche
3 Landrover
4 Alfa Romeo
5 Chrysler
6 Jaguar
7 Audi
8 MG
9 Mercedes
10 Saab
Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-1686756/Most-reliable-cars-2010.html#ixzz1XS29N7hi
2011's figures so far (best):
1 Toyota Corolla 4.00
2 Suzuki Alto 7.00
3 Honda HR-V 8.00
4 Ford Fiesta 14.00
5 Honda Jazz 16.00
6 Volvo S40 18.00
7 Mazda 2 20.00
8 Mitsubishi Colt 21.00
9 Lexus IS 21.00
10 Toyota Yaris 22.00
Worst:
1 Mercedes-Benz SL 349.00
2 Mercedes-Benz CL 327.00
3 Land Rover Range Rover 295.00
4 Mercedes-Benz S-Class 287.00
5 Nissan Pathfinder 269.00
6 Renault Espace 264.00
7 Jeep Grand Cherokee 256.00
8 Mercedes-Benz V-Class 248.00
9 Renault Vel Satis 247.00
10 Citroen C8 238.00
http://www.reliabilityindex.com/
Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-1686756/Most-reliable-cars-2010.html#ixzz1XS29N7hi2011's figures so far (best):
1 Toyota Corolla 4.00
2 Suzuki Alto 7.00
3 Honda HR-V 8.00
4 Ford Fiesta 14.00
5 Honda Jazz 16.00
6 Volvo S40 18.00
7 Mazda 2 20.00
8 Mitsubishi Colt 21.00
9 Lexus IS 21.00
10 Toyota Yaris 22.00
I would only look at either the Volvo or Lexus for rep mobiles out of that list from an image point of view.
mmmmm Lexus RX400H
mmmmm Lexus RX400H
New car perchance?
All that reliability stuff needs to be taken with a massive pinch of salt.
The 2010/2011 numbers include the Renault Vel Satis, which isn't sold here any more, and in any case only dribbled out of the showrooms. The Citroen C8's still on sale, but I've only ever seen about three. SAAB have essentially closed down, so again, you're hardly talking representative samples, and MG disappeared in 2008.
The reason people look at you funny when you are driving one is that conspicuous consumption is not generally admired in this country...
On the contrary, I think it is far too much admired.
Deviant do you buy cars based solely on reliability figures? You sound like a fun guy 😉
One of my mates used to sell cars for a living. In his time he worked for Jeep, Ford and BMW. One of the reasons he quit working for BMW was that he thought most people who walked in to the showroom had an attitude.Ironically he now sells construction equipment and he likes to be seen in the blingist Audi he can ge
Stuart?
Yep brummy Stu! Small world ay. Unfortunately dont get to see him that much these days, as he's all loved up and my lifes a bit mad.
The reliability surveys throw the odd curve ball with niche cars that didnt sell in big numbers sometimes skewing results but the big names at the top; Honda, Toyota, Suzuki, Kia etc sell enough cars that the results can usually be trusted....its also telling that companies like Kia and Hyundai started off the current war over warranties by offering 5 and 7 year warranties years before the european manufacturers got their arses into gear.
The last european car i owned was in 2007, i'd spent 12 years driving Fords, Citreons, Peugeots, Volkwagens and Fiats and become used to spending money on cars....everybody else did too, part of adult life isnt it?
Er, no actually....bought from the east at the end of 2007 and havent had to put anything other than tyres on my cars since....managed to convince the other half to swap too and her Mitsubishi (7 years old) hasnt gone wrong yet either.
*randomjeremy....yes i do buy cars on reliability, not really that interested in image any more....i see my car as a glorified umbrella, something to keep me dry in crappy weather thats all and the less money i have to spend on it the better as far as i'm concerned....i have the mountain bike and a motorbike for fun*
In your experience...
I have a Mazda 3 from new (now 4.5 years old) and it has had electrical problems (central locking failed, alarm going off because it wasn't recognising the key, windows not operating), brake system faults (a very common problem with the DSC) which cost me £400 to repair even with a 50% contribution from Mazda, rapid tyre wear (12k out of a set of front tyres is considered 'normal' for this car).
Most disappointed in it to be honest.
It's very important to your self-esteem to have a vehicle that has a presence on the road and commands respect from other road users.
I've just bought such a vehicle for cash, and I notice that even BMW and Audi drivers give me road room.
It's a white Ford Transit 🙂
12k (average annual mileage) is fine for a set of tyres....try riding a motorbike and having to change them every 2-3k!
Regards personal stories....you're right everybody has personal experience that refutes the figures.
Funky, thats him. Thinks the world of his missus 
12K for a set of tires? I got just under 40K from the last set, and they were still legal but I didn't want to drive around the akes at Crimbo with worn tires.
It's a white Ford Transit
+1 or any other large van.
i was cruising around the alps in a large fiat ducato like this:
[img] 
[/img]
i pimped it using black gaffa tape..... big speed stripe through the middle of it. wanted to have two stripes but ran out of tape.
12k (average annual mileage) is fine for a set of tyres....try riding a motorbike and having to change them every 2-3k!
No it isn't not for a 150bhp car driven carefully.
I have had 16k and counting out of the tyres on my car and I rag it quite regularly.
12k (average annual mileage) is fine for a set of tyres....try riding a motorbike and having to change them every 2-3k!
Jesus H, what are you doing to them 😆 ? 18k and counting on mine and that's 4wd with close to 300bhp
It is a known fault with the suspension set-up on the car - they eat tyres 🙁 And they are £120 a pop too.
Selling it this month and getting a cheapo second car to run around in when needed - gonna get something that can be cheaply and easily repaired by an independent dealer and I can chuck no-name tyres on when it eventually needs them.
Haha.. they don't! Pretty much all the people I know that have BMW's don't have money for it and just lease them. At least that's how it works in the US .. Enjoy now, pay later (or never).
Jesus H, what are you doing to them
It's called cornering... Plus R&D in bike tyres is aimed to grip. R&D in car tyres to longevity.
jsgrl925ws - Member
Haha.. they don't! Pretty much all the people I know that have BMW's don't have money for it and just lease them. At least that's how it works in the US .. Enjoy now, pay later (or never).
What do you think they pay the lease with? Magic Beans?
Commuting along the M4
Anywhere between J5 and J13 of the M4 is sensible commute distance to BMW UK who are based in Bracknell. Like most manufacturers, they do excellent lease deals for their staff to keep them in virtually-new BMWs all the time. Same reason that Milton Keynes is full of virtually new VAG cars.
Others have said as well that for company car drivers BMW have the magic combination of low CO2 and reasonable list prices that make them much cheaper in terms of tax than most rivals. Good retained value means fleet managers are more likely to offer them too.
For the people on car allowance (as many ex-company-car drivers are) they're still a pretty affordable option. I'm hardly senior but my car allowance would just about stretch to a leased 3-series - I bought a 6-month old Civic instead and pocket the difference. Buying a 2-3 year old 3-series and keeping it a couple of years before buying another is what a few colleagues do quite affordably too.
As for the RR Sports and stuff - a combination of mortgage equity withdrawal (idiots believing the value of their house will only go up so add £40k to their mortgage to buy a car) and there are plenty of people about in their 50s now with their mortgage paid off - so even in a modest job they have plenty of disposable income to spend on things like cars.
Debt - like most of today's problems!!
When I see someone who has a ‘nice car’ but lives in a rubbish house, I automatically think chav!
[b]Vinte[/b] - When I see someone who has a ‘nice car’ but lives in a rubbish house, I automatically think chav!
Careful up there on your pedestal.. 😉
Maybe they just have different priorities?
Ecky-Thump - Member
Oy! Gary_C, now I'm upset. I thought you were keeping an eye out for a little diesel for my Mrs. That 1 series sounded spot on.
Damn ! 😳
No doubt a similar one will crop up. It was a cracking little car too, 177bhp so it wasn't a slouch, 50mpg from Cumbria to Rochdale, & that was with me, shall I say, 'making good progress' on the M6, 61 & 60. Only £90 P.A. VED as well.
Vinte that's called 'Ghetto fabulous'. A lot of black guys in Huddersfield were like that when I was younger.
The best bit of RWD is in corners though
Unless you are too heavy with the throttle, in which case your life is suddenly in danger (assuming you've got the traction control off).
However in real world most people can drive quicker in a FWD than a RWD.
Er, in what real world is this? In the actual real world it doesn't make any difference to your driving speed, since you should in NO WAY be anywhere close to the limit of a good FWD car. No doubt it feels nicer but your speed should be limited by the fact it's a public road far more than which wheels are being driven.
In your experience...I have a Mazda 3 from new
We all know you had a bad car, and that particular model had problems. However that doesn't change the fact that Mazda are over all an excellent brand for reliability.
12k (average annual mileage) is fine for a set of tyres..
Is it bloody hell.
Well not quite Molgrips - all Mazdas with DSC built around that time had the same problem - 3s, 5s, 6s - and Mazda have always been reticent to accept liability. Some people sucked it up and have paid (according to forums I joined) up to £1.2k to repair. Others like myself fought hard to get contributions.
I think that the OP might be suffering from "observational bias". Audi and BMW have 6-7% each of new car sales market share. There aren't that many out there. However look for them and you'll notice them.
As for how people can afford them?
1. Company cars. As has been pointed before, due to good residuals and low co2 they can often be a tax /lease efficient as other makes, ford/vauxhall etc..
2. Leasing. Again due to residuals they are relatively (subjective term) as cheap as as other makes, ford/vauxhall etc..again.
3. Some people really can't afford them but want a "premium" brand and use a high (too high?) proportion of their income.
4. Some people (high disposable income, net worth) can afford them. Or in other words - Welcome to Surrey! Down here the OP would be asking "How can people afford Lambos, Ferrari, Bentley" etc...Again it's observational bias - there aren't that many around but you notice them.
Can I just ask where you can get an Audi A6 for £270 a month please, cos I'm struggling to get even a base model anywhere near that let alone an Sline... Or are you putting up a big deposit?
It's a business lease through Bolton Audi - typical 3 x 24 terms. But yes - until I found that, I couldn't even find an A4 Avant apart from the very basic low power model I could afford and it was still more than the A6.
I had a Mk2 Golf GiT 16v which clocked up 40k between tyre changes and in the 90k miles I covered in it only ate through one set of discs and pads. It was a bloody hoot to drive too.
Progress?
what a load of crap, nowt wrong with BMW's or any german mark cars. All vey nice quality cars. Its all about choices, some folk spend there money on MTB's, road bikes, going out and getting pissed every weekend. Others spend there money on there car. I work in the motor trade (selling cars) and plenty of folk have there cars as there pride and joy (hobby etc)
Sad to some maybe, but so is biking through woods to other folk. Horses for courses and all that. Other times there are people with disposable incomes who enjoy cars, Cars do nothing for me as i work with em and see em every day. And I really dont care what i drive so long as i can get my bikes in or on the roof of my car (My choices)
My wife on the other hand, works very hard and is a profesional with degrees and a master degree. She earns plenty of her own money and is a real petrol head and loves cars. She chooses to drive a high powerd German sports car. Is she on an ego trip or does she just like driving a nice sports car?
Im just glad there is people like my wife and others out there as they keep me and others in a job. Just like folk who work in bike shops must think of me and other cycle mad folk.
I struggle with long sentences
but to the OP.
A friend of mine worked in BMW Finance late 2000's. End of 2008 he said we're screwed. What we've been doing for years is getting money from the wholesale markets and giving it to our customers to buy our cars. Now the credit crunch has halted the wholesale markets we can't sell cars.
Nuts isn't it. No wonder it's all gone pop.
A mate who used to work at Ford said the only bit of the business which makes a profit (and therefore holding the whole business up) was finance...
All I want is a Mk2 Golf GiT again. I'd happily settle for one.
The finance epitaph is something very profound. It's been staring us in the face for so long...I've a friend who designs diesel engines for Ford who pretty much told me the same thing. High end consumer goods, along with housing have priced themselves beyond the reach of most of the people who aspire to possess them.
How long before mountain bike components meet the same fate?
2012 Giant prices to fall so I guess that's ****!
ha.. just spoke to my sister and her fella is getting a BMW in the next few weeks....
..... through his work via finance! £240/month. and it's part of his job. he has to take the car.
what is VAG? i keep thinking vagina, but i'm guessing it's got very little to do with that....
what is VAG?
Volkswagen Audi Group...
cars really are very cheap though, compared to historical values. I remember distinctly my dad bought the absolute bottom of the range volvo 440 (not a great car..) in 1993 for £11000 cash. Equivilent car now is a volvo s40, which starts at around £16000. That's a <50% increase in 18 years, or a smidge over 2% increase per year (way below average inflation). That isn't an extreme example either. a base model escort would have been about £10000 then, and £15000 now.
My dad's 440 had 118bhp, and did 30mpg. it had keep-fit windows, cloth seats, and distributed locking. The steering had no power assistance, and the tape player just picked up FM. if you were hot you opened a window, if you wanted to keep to one speed you held your foot very still and hoped the road was flat.
Progress? I'd say so.
molgrips - Member
Unless you are too heavy with the throttle, in which case your life is suddenly in danger (assuming you've got the traction control off).
whilst fwd is easier to control a power-on slide than rwd, if you find that with a heavy right foot, your life is 'suddenly in danger' in a rwd car, you should probably go and get some training
Er, in what real world is this? In the actual real world it doesn't make any difference to your driving speed, since you should in NO WAY be anywhere close to the limit of a good FWD car. No doubt it feels nicer but your speed should be limited by the fact it's a public road far more than which wheels are being driven.
why shouldn't you be near the limit? if you can see the road is clear ahead, and you're confident in your car's abilities, why not push the envelope? even at sedate speeds, without a big powerslide or whatever, slip angles on tyres are related to the forces going through them. Even well within the envelope of grip, round a given corner, with power applied to keep a constent speed, a rear wheel drive car will corner at a different attitude to a fwd car. some people notice this and enjoy it. its the same as trying to slow (beneath the limits of traction) a bike through a corner, if you apply only the front brake, the bike trys to push on, and doesn't have much stability, but if you apply the rear, the bike is still keen to enter a corner
Different country and different set of situations for us here in Oz:
We bought an ex-demo Freelander for 20% less than list price with only 600 km on the clock. Looking at the value of three year old ones here, it's likely to depreciate a further 20% in the first three years, costing us $10k in these three years. It is on finance, and this rate is a little higher than savings interest rates, but not by much. However, it does come with full warranty, and roadside (and not-so-roadside) recovery for these three years. Given that I'm pretty new to the vastness of Australia (more the consequences of breaking down), and that depreciation is much lower here ($10K would probably only get you a 10 year old banger with mega-kms), buying a new car makes more sense than the UK. Secondly, it's a 4wd, and we frequently use it as such. Strangely, the next nearest new 4wd that actually works off road (a Pajero, Patrol or Prado) would be an extra $10k over what we paid.
So yes, it's an expensive car by some standards, but for a fully functional 4wd, it's actually quite cheap - a fact that's surprising over here when you actually look at car prices.
My biggest mistake was selling my MkIV Golf GTI instead of bringing it. That was 10 years old, with 100k miles (160k kms), and would cost me $15k to buy in that condition here. I sold it for 1300 GBP before I left, not thinking it worthwhile bringing.....
I guess where I've rambled to with this is that if I have to spend a huge amount on a car (which over here unless you want mega kms or almost mega kms and a Kia you have to), buying a new car can sort-of make sense. And for the record, I do earn a good wage by UK standards (maybe less so by Australian standards), but I certainly work for it. For a lot of people who own nice things (cars, houses, bikes), they have done the same as me - worked very hard for a career and are now starting to enjoy the benefits. Perhaps I could have been more prudent and put the money towards a deposit for a house; but as prices here rise quicker than I can save, I can't see that happening any time soon. Buying the house I rent for the price of a shoebox near central Manchester would cost $600k - there's no way I can afford a mortgage anywhere close to that any time soon.
Yes NOWT wrong with the cars. Its the advertising that creates negative perceptions and makes you think self-righteous cocks.
A lot of bmw owners will buy into the engineering, steering etc. There will be a fair few though who see themselves as having 'made it' to their neighbours if they acquire (note that word, not buy) one..
Pity as not every Audi driver drives inconsideratly but the few who do give them the bad name.
Advertising can give the wrong image and consequently draw the wrong crowd to a brand.
Over here in 'der Vaterland' a client of mine works at a BMW garage. She told me that only about 1% of their customers buy a new BMW outright. The overwhelming majority of new cars are leased.
New i30 classic- in the paper this morning for 9k new. I am TEMPTED!
Probably going to Llandegla tomorrow with my wee one. Can't wait to get up, put my baggiest shorts on, my full face, Leatt and loads of pads. I'll then stick my unnecessarily burly "trail bike" on the roof, head over to N Wales burning off a few poxy Hyundais on route, and then use my Beemer's rwd to spray stones over everyone in the car park. Then it'll be off round the red holding everyone up, before back for a much higher calorific intake than I've just burnt.
Wave and say hi...
I have a company car worth about £20k. If i didn't have it i would buy a car for <£5k.
When you are given a list of cars, you pick the best one.
People drive german cars for the following reasons: -
1. They are very good
2. they are cheap to own and run
3. They like the way the look
They don't own them: -
1. To impress anyone - they are mostly smart enough to know that nobody is impressed by middling saloon cars.
Don't think it's BMW's that create the attitude, I think it's people's perception that ur a w**nker if u display wealth. I drive a jaguar xf, through my company (I'd rather enjoy the earnings than give an additional 20% to the taxman). I used to commute 110 miles a day so all I cared about was comfort.
In the 2 years I have owned it EVERY panel has been damaged, the badges stolen, and the paint keyed twice. I once walked up to my car in a tesco car park to watch a lady crack my door three times with the corner of hers so she could get her obese backside out of her own. On walking up and up and asking if she was right she started having a go that I shouldn't drive such a large car (she was in a galaxy s-max) !!
Sent the obligatory letters to get her to pay for touch up (£75) but obviously never paid, cheers for that.
As to cost, just over £420 a month ex vat on a 0% finance. Not cheap but I won't lift the bonnet the entire time I own it (touch wood), if I want rid I simply hand it back, if I want to down grade / upgrade I can without hassle. the balloon is stupid low (again I hope). It was cheaper than an equivalent mondeo once the spec was matched and finance put into the equation.
And knowing people within the industry, I've been told that there is very little (if any) margins in a new car, in fact some are actually loss leaders. But manufacturers know (obviously land rover know better than anyone) that money is made on servicing, accessories and the big windfall when they get the vehicle back and they get to sell it on again.
And remember, every person who buys a new vehicle is taking the first step in creating a Market that will trickle down, looking at the jaguar website now there are hundreds of XF's less than half sticker price at the 3-4 year (ex lease) point entering the Market. Absolute bargains !!!