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Never mind poxy 3 series bimmers, can someone explain the huge number of Range Rovers (mainly the "cheaper" sports) on the roads?R
I do know enough people whose earnings are well in the six figure category, and even they claim RRs are too expensive..!
I drive a 1999 318i se touring. It only cost £1000 with 12 months mot and lots of the toys.
Bargain!
My bikes cost more! 🙂
@big dave - read mine and the following post again - increased costs is sometimes a myth.
Basically the BMW parts bin is most better sourced parts than the competition. Yes you pay the premium but yes, they last a lot longer. And the customer service is great. Even at the dealer, becuase of the age of the car I get charged max £199 for a Service (inc parts) and max £450 for all brakes and discs. I did lots of research for tyres, including BlackCircles and the like - couldnt beat the dealers price.
Plus. they have a "lifestyle" cafe, so I get my car serviced on a Saturday, on a while you wait basis, while I sit in the cafe and have a free bacon roll and coffee (or two) while i read the paper.
When I chose my company car a BMW would have been about £20 a month less than my Mondeo but to get the same spec in toys etc would have been about £30 more...and I can easily get my bike in the back of my car.
You will find quite a lot are company cars on basic spec for the status symbol of having a BMW. Also to be fair i dont really like german interiors. VW;s are fairly similar as well interior wise.
I was listening to Radio 4 tonight. Apparently, in the last 430 years social mobility amongst the top 10% of earners has increased at 8 times the rate of any other income group.
The rest of us have had to make do with cheap credit instead.
I recently got a 5 Series company car after many years of believing the (negative) BMW hype.
1) The emissions and therefore tax are about as low as you can go among a vast range of manufacturers.
2) The lease cost is very competitive with all the run of the mill shite due to the residual value of the car.
3) It's without doubt the most comfortable best handling (at real world pace) car I've ever had.
Reasons 1and 2 are why they are so popular if you ask me.
£250 a month really isn't a lot of money on a car. I run complete bangers, and I recon that all in its £100 a month for tax, insurance, mot, fixing it, and so on. If I ran a 5 year old car it'd be double that, so why not pay the smidge extra for something brand new?
I am about to take delivery of an A6 SLine SE estate 2.0 tdi - it is costing less on a lease than a medium spec Mondeo or Insignia - £270 a month. Look around and some good deals are available.
£250/month isn't a great deal...
I wouldn't spend it but a bloke at work recently bought a fully loaded Skoda Yeti - only the 1.2tsi. He is paying £350/ month.
He is the sole bread winner, is on about 'average wage', has a young kid & rents a house but deems £350 an acceptable amount to spend on a car!
Just been offered a brand new VW Touran tdi from my old personal lease company for £160/month; (+3?)
I had a SAAB 9-3 Sportwagen for a number of years on personal lease; what I paid didn't even approach depreciation tbh - do the maths, unless you buy and are happy with a banger, why the heck would you buy a vehicle outright or through other forms of finance?
I am about to take delivery of an A6 SLine SE estate 2.0 tdi
Molgrips approovz of dis chois.
The lease companies can offer cheaper deals on BMW's at the moment as there getting 3 years worth of free servicing from BMW, so when they sell a company a fully maintained lease package, they can afford to knock a few quid off as there not going to have to pay anything towards the service costs over the typical 3 year term.
Also on the 1 and 3 series BMW are moving away from run flat tyres and so replacement tyre costs are going down.
And BMW assist offer a 3 year breakdown package which keeps costs down again as there not paying so much to the AA / RAC.
Plus some of the BMW's are tax friendly.
Making it a good deal for BMW, the lease companies and the company car driver.
I had a SAAB 9-3 Sportwagen for a number of years on personal lease; what I paid didn't even approach depreciation tbh
thing is, it probably comfortably beat the depreciation the lease company took, as they'll have paid 20-25% under book for 40 of the things..
Timing is key - i had a 911 that i paid 1/5th of its original price for (all receipts were with it and original sales receipt was $224,000), my RS4 was 50% of it's original price after 18 months now selling for same as I paid generally.
I'll never buy a new car ever.
Look at the prices of the previous model 5 series, the big petrols are not expensive cars now and still have a lot of life in them.
As others have said, co2 etc make lease beemers very attractive to the "business user"
And they look nicer and less plasticky than mercs.
I've, in the past, owned beemers. I've had 530d estates, 330d sport estates and an m3 of all my cars they've been an absolute pleasure to own and drive. I've had many a pleasurable drive around europe in them..
Got a few mates who work in 'sales'....BMWs are the choice of the aspirational office worker everywhere....usually in grey too.
They are nice cars but there are lots of nice cars out there....its funny when i've been to one of these mate's place of work and see the car park full of them....or Audis a few years ago when they were all the rage....and before that it was the new Mini....you get the idea, a lot of new cars on the road are fleet vehicles and people in that kind of stifling environment are always desperate to follow fashion even when it means they all have the same cars!
For me a good car is one that doesnt break....and BMW havent been anywhere near the top of any reliability lists for some years now....the last list i saw 8/10 of the top manufacturers were from the far east.
They are nice cars but there are lots of nice cars out there....its funny when i've been to one of these mate's place of work and see the car park full of them....or Audis a few years ago when they were all the rage....and before that it was the new Mini....you get the idea, a lot of new cars on the road are fleet vehicles and people in that kind of stifling environment are always desperate to follow fashion even when it means they all have the same cars!
You can't hide it you know.
Hide what?
Why drive a BMW ? other cars will do the job cheaper.Personally I cant think of anything worse to spend money on than a penis extension ,that and not having any money to buy one
I am about to take delivery of an A6 SLine SE estate 2.0 tdi
And woopee for you
I collected my C200 Merc last week. Very pleasant it is too. Its averaging over 50mpg so far, it is comfortable and my wife and son like it.
Its not that much on the tax (Company car) because the emissions are low and the fuel savings over my previous company car (Vio dualiner) will balance it out.
All i was bothered about was that i could fit my bike in the boot and i can 🙂 Couldnt swallow paying £350 for folding rear seats.
I have driven VW's, fords and volvo's over the years and this is by far the nicest car i have driven on a daily basis.
Am i pleased i have a new car on the drive that i like to drive - Yep
Am i bothered if somone else prefers to run used - Nope
WOuld i buy a new car if i had to fork out £30k of my own money - nope
Its just the way things are and you run with it.
5lab - agreed, but until I can buy a car at cost and in bulk its the best way surely? 😉
Never mind BMW's. they're not that far out of reach. Should you desire. What amazes me is the number of high end range rovers being driven around by 'yummy mummy's who clearly aren't on the way to work. So hubby has probably got the BMW/merc as a company car. But thats a **** of a lot of money for a second car that's basically just doing the school run
MF - are you sure it's an A6 SLine SE? One or the other surely.
thegreatape - Member
MF - are you sure it's an A6 SLine SE? One or the other surely.POSTED 3 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
SE in this context is Special Edition, which gives met. Paint and some other bits (parking sensors, bigger wheels) for a couple of hundred quid, so it works out better value than a standard s-line.
It's BMWs not BMW's fer ****'s sake. GET IT RIGHT.
The plural of car is cars not car's so why should it be BMW's?
If you aspire to a lifestyle accessory affordable by only 1% of the world's population, at least learn to punctuate.
My 328 touring cost me £300 🙂
Cheers, Rich
It's BMWs not BMW's fer ****'s sake. GET IT RIGHT.
The plural of car is cars not car's so why should it be BMW's?
If you aspire to a lifestyle accessory affordable by only 1% of the world's population, at least learn to punctuate.
Ooooh get her! Actually, it is perfectly acceptable to use an apostrophe to separate the s to indicate
plurals when the word is an acronym or abbreviation.
mastiles_fanylion - Member
I am about to take delivery of an A6 SLine SE estate 2.0 tdi - it is costing less on a lease than a medium spec Mondeo or Insignia - £270 a month. Look around and some good deals are available.
A mate of mine just got one of them on a similarly excellent deal. I must have a gander down the local Audi garage.
I am about to take delivery of an A6 SLine SE estate 2.0 tdi - it is costing less on a lease than a medium spec Mondeo or Insignia - £270 a month. Look around and some good deals are available
Yup just put in final details for next car and Audis come back cheaper than Fords as the resale value is much better. Should be here in March with some luck.
Why did I order what I have? Well I like my cars I could run around in a second machine but I earn good money so I like to reward myself in various ways and one of those ways is a nice car. It has nothing to do with looking good in front of others it's just I like cars. Some people spend way more on bikes than I do but that's what they choose to do.
Don't own a car, but can someone tell me the answer to a question that has been slightly intruiging me?
How much is a drivers side wing mirror for a Mercedes C-220? Seeing as i punched one off a car after the drver tried to drive over me to get to the lights. (I did try to headbutt him through the window but couldn't get through.. :oops:)
Just to add my twopeneth worth, my bro in law has spent the last few weeks heavily researching his next personal contract hire car (or whatever it's called) and had come up with the conclusion you get audis and mercs far cheaper than beemers! His current alfa is £310 a month (ridiculous if you ask me for something he'll never own) but has found several mercs and audis 50/70 cheaper, mostly on e class and the 6 series audis.
How much is a drivers side wing mirror for a Mercedes C-220
About £150 plus labour and paint, so anywhere from £300 to £500
After over a decade of cars from the VAG group I recently bought a 3 year old 325D Touring as I fancied something a bit different (for me) and a bit bigger.
After I flog my Leon it'll have cost me about £6k.. and I think I got a lot of car for the money. It's silky smooth, still does 40+mpg and makes my 500+ mile/week commute a lot more relaxed - money well spent IMO!
Oh, and it's not black, or grey, or silver... 😛
Its not some thing I worry about because its each to their own etc etc. However when you work it out say a £25k car, which wont get you much BMW these days... on 0% finance thats just under £700 a month over 3 years which to be fair is affordable if you are on a big salary and think cars are worth paying alot of money for!
If you want to get really picky you can look at all the BM's, Mercs etc etc parked on the drives of houses that are relatively low in value. If its a company car you can then go down the lines of thinking, well surely if they are in a position where they get a nice company car, then they should be able to afford a bigger home? Then again its all each to their own and people can spend their money as they like. I think the majority of the population would think its stupid spending £3k on a mountain bike!
Mastiles thats a good deal, I bet its only a business deal though or I would be selling the wifes car and getting one for her!
You will find quite a lot are company cars on basic spec for the status symbol of having a BMW.
What is the status symbol of having a BMW? You automatically come across as a ****?
Anyone in the SE who wasn't on the property ladder 10 years ago is f***ed as far as I can see. Me and my missus dream of a 3 bed!
We've got a 3 bed semi in the SE. £240,000 it cost. I earn about £25-27,000 (hourly paid so it varies) Mrs PP a bit more.
If we wanted we could afford a BMW too, no bother. But we plough all our spare cash into either savings or the house. Last year we chucked £12,000 (not credit either) at a kitchen, and we've just bought a £5000 motorbike, for instance.
The only debt we have is the mortgage, and there's money in the bank for holidays etc
I suspect that a lot of people are up to their eyeballs in debt to pay for stuff like this. Buying a BMW on a Vauxhall wage. Holidays and Christmas paid for on credit cards..... Keeping up with the Jonses, I think they used to call it.....
I'm more struck by the ammount of cars sat idle on drives, nearly everyone a top end car.
But my take is that they are lease or company. I can see some starter homes down the road, and I wouldn't be generalizing if I said every car was a Mini or series 1 or 3 BMW and a good few A6's
I'd say never judge people by their cars. A lot are on credit and I know salesmen that change jobs for the cars ( the ones that think it's classy to wear cufflinks)
What is the status symbol of having a BMW? You automatically come across as a ****?
Not within certain circles you dont - people obviously like them
I'm extremely pleased that people keep buying expensive cars.
My Discovery cost me £10k - it was 5 years old, and whoever bought it paid £46k new. Apart from insuring it, and fuel at 30mpg, it's cost me £300 for a suspension compenent in the 10k miles I've driven. It's £200 or so for a service.
Assuming I don't do anything stupid with it, it'll still be worth £8k two years hence, when I'll swap it out. Ownership costs (excluding fuel & insurance, but including servicing/parts - new cars tend to have this covered for 3 years etc) over 3 years/35000 miles would be around £85/month or 8.5p mile.
There's no way that I could get a new Disco for anything close to £85/month, so I'm happy with my choice.
I used to have a colleague ten yours younger than me who was highly disgruntled that he was forced to drive a poxy Audi A4 like all the other reps. He once said to me "I will not be satisfied with anything less than a beemer on my drive." His problem was that he had a caravan at Abersoch, which is the Welsh posing resort for rich builders and footballers from Cheshire and he judged people by the car they drove; he even said to me once: "They're all nice people; they drive BMWs, Mercs, Porsches.... lovely cars...."
He approached the boss several times asking for a BMW and each time was told "If you don't like it, there's the door!" Eventually he gave up his well paid secure job here and talked himself into a job with a competitor who isn't doing very well, one of the conditions being that they gave him a BMW M3. Then we heard that he had bought a chalet at Vulgarsoch, which was at the end of his life and he and his wife had needed to take out a mortgage for £90,000 to buy the new chalet that they were contractually obliged to put on the site.
I can only conclude that BMWs are status symbols for muppets.
Global - Sorry I think you are wrong BM's are very good cars and I would have one tomorrow if I could, but unfortunately unless you can get one through a business it doesnt make economic sense.
I think that all the premium car manufacturers get a bad rep because at the end of the day sales reps etc aspire to them and see them as a status symbol etc etc, and couldnt afford to buy one for themselves, so it starts the I'm better than you penis envy thing, which is a shame.
They are all very good cars, but unfortunately very expensive to buy privately.
@nickf That's the sensible way to do it, buying the right car at the right age and condition for the right price. It's a bit of a balancing act, but not that hard to get right.
One mate had a stirng of BMWs and I was unimpressed/less than impressed with all of them - particularly a 525e which wallowed all over the place.
I saw an ex-work colleague the other day who has a new 5 series.
There is a road to Camberley (red road?) that has lovely sweeping corners and real flow - he doesn't like it as he feels out of control !!!
One night I was driving back on the motorway and it was teeming down with rain and aquaplaning was the order of the day. One BMW that passed me lost control and went into the central barrier and I saw about 3 other pulling over into the hard shoulder for some reason on my journey home.
Overrated status symbols in my view.
SE in this context is Special Edition, which gives met. Paint and some other bits (parking sensors, bigger wheels) for a couple of hundred quid, so it works out better value than a standard s-line.
I'm obliged.
"There is a road to Camberley (red road?) that has lovely sweeping corners and real flow - he doesn't like it as he feels out of control !!!"
Could just be that he prefers dull less entertaining cars like Audis that dont offer the same amount of feedback and driving entertainment.
Personally can't understand why someone would be happy shelling out anywhere between £250-£350 a month for what at the end of the day are some pretty mediocre new cars. BMW 316 or 318, Audi 2.0ltr Diesel Estate - hardly cars that set the heart racing are they? Dull, dull, dull. Automotive porridge? Struggling to get my head round it to be honest.
Why not spend the money on something nice to drive instead. Sure if you want a BMW for the same money as that new 318i you could have a 4-5 year old M3 Coupe and still have cash to spare to cover the extra fuel and insurance. For less than half the price of a boggo and boring new 2.0 A6 you could get a ten year old RS4 - a car that is no longer depreciating at all.
If cash up front is the problem then get a personal loan out to cover the purchase cost. The best thing is at the end of the loan period you will still have a car to sell or part-ex. With a finance package you are left with either a massive final payment, or nothing. You won't be limited to a poxy 10k (or whatever the leasing company dictate) miles a year either.
It's like when you compare it to bikes - what would you rather take to your local trail centre. A brand new Halford's special for £400, or for the similar money a 5-6 year old high spec but used Specialised, Marin, Orange, Santa Cruz etc. Sure you might have to replace the odd part now and again but think of how much more fun you will have.
SE in this context is Special Edition, which gives met. Paint and some other bits (parking sensors, bigger wheels) for a couple of hundred quid, so it works out better value than a standard s-line.
"Parking Sensors" - is this a 'must have' option? Surely you have passed your driving test at some point?
I'm getting a company car, and haven't got a clue what my choices are.
I last time worked for them was in 1996 and the first A4s had just come on the scene as company cars. What would the equivalent be today?
You won't be limited to a poxy 10k (or whatever the leasing company dictate) miles a year either.
You're limited to what you choose and pay for not what the lease company decides.
It's all about choices, some go second hand cheap £500 bangers, some go for second-hand executives for £8k that were once £40k and some go for a brand new £28k car. It's a choice and can't get why people feel the need to criticise others choices.
Is that the catch on lease cars, limited mileage?
GAP insurance? If you write the car off within three years, not only do you get the current value, but the GAP insurance makes up the shortfall so that the total amount you get back is the same as you paid for the car new.
I've lost count of the number of times people have slammed on their brakes in front of me trying to get me to run into the back of them, perphaps fianaces are tight or they fancy a new car....
"I've lost count of the number of times people have slammed on their brakes in front of me trying to get me to run into the back of them, perphaps fianaces are tight or they fancy a new car...."
... or they think you are driving too close 🙂
Is that the catch on lease cars, limited mileage?
Some are limited to 10k a year, but the biggest catch is you have to pay for ever tiny bit of damagae when you hand the car back. I've heard of people being charged £2500 for a respray when the car has only a few scratches and stone chips that you're always going to pick up no mater how carefull you are. The lease company won't get the paintwork done, but will pocket the money and sell on the car as is.
Is that the catch on lease cars, limited mileage?
No. You set the limit but obviously pay extra the more you have, it's doesn't vary that much though.
Some are limited to 10k a year, but the biggest catch is you have to pay for ever tiny bit of damagae when you hand the car back.
Not paid a single penny yet.
In the event of a write off the GAP insurance on my car only pays out on the difference between the insurance payout on the car and the amount owed to the finance company - probably only an issue for the first 12 months or so of the lease agreement. Given the amount of hassle I had after having a lease car stolen and never recovered I can't believe anyone would deliberately write off their car to claim on a GAP policy. A year later I am still getting random bills off the lease company.
I drive a nearly 4 year old BMW 320 M Sport, had it from new. Came through a company arranged personal lease with a purchase price of about £25k. I receive a car allowance and a condition of this is a car no older than 6 years and no more than 120k miles on the clock.
I could have had a cheaper new runaround but as my allowance and saving on company car tax covered the cost of the lease on the BMW I decided to go for it as it seemed nice to have it over the Vactra I had before.
Apart from it being a little small for my young family it's been the best car I have ever (and will ever) own (through finance). At Christmas I can either make the final payment and buy it outright or give it back. At the moment I'm torn which way to go but chances are I will go for something that costs me a bit less each month so I can pocket the difference.
As I see it comparable motors from the more conventionally common manufacturers are priced similarly to equivalent "premium" brands and from my experieince the level of finish on my my BMW is overall a little better. This may not be an issue and it's not in massive areas, it is just a bit slicker.
How does insurance work for a leased car?
Oy! Gary_C, now I'm upset. I thought you were keeping an eye out for a little diesel for my Mrs. That 1 series sounded spot on. 😉
Generally, I gotta say that I'm continually shocked at how many new, high cost motors are on the road. Not that many folk have company cars these days, so there must be a fair few folk who lease/buy on a personal basis.
That's their choice.
I'm more focussed on cost of ownership and generally work on an assumption that any car itself (depreciation, oil changes and tyres) should cost me no more than £1k per year (c.20k miles). More than that and I start to get depressed. 😥
I have friends who have bought expensive motors new (not a Beemer but a V70 & a Sharan) but they both have the sense to see them as long term depreciating assets and plan to keep them for at least 10 years. The depreciation is not unreasonable when you work on those sort of timescales. I might even possibly consider a big Beemer oil-burner on that basis.
'cos everybody is a drug dealer innit
Ohh someone mentioned Christmas and BMWs. Are they still an issue in the snow?
I'd like a Golf, am I way out of touch?
Ewan, with may car it's treated as my own (registered in my name) and I insure it as my own car.
In terms of maintenance I pay a monthly fee which equate to about a grand a year and fro that i have no further servicing, repair or (lately) MOT bills. I wouldn't epect a lot to go wrong with a new car but as I've gone through 6 tyres due to nails and screws and have not had to pay anything towards them it's not so bad.
"Ohh someone mentioned Christmas and BMWs. Are they still an issue in the snow?"
Its not a BMW problem! Its people not understanding that rear wheel drive cars are more difficult to drive in snow. I guess that does kind of show that that most people buy BM's as status symbols though, as they quite clearly dont have a clue which wheels drive the car!
Touch of the green eyed monster here which is a shame.
BMW make very good cars I think that's unquestionable as do Audi, Mercedes and many others.
It is true that many people feel that their car is a status symbol, others just enjoy driving, some do big miles and want a large comfortable car and so on, the list of motivations is endless.
The only truism that I have noticed is that we as a nation seem to judge affordability differently than was the case in the past. Now something is affordable if you can afford the payments whereas in the past something was affordable if you had the savings or cash handy.
Then, we invested in the future, now we borrow from it which does seem a little risky but with interest rates at 0.5% why not?
Oy! Gary_C, now I'm upset. I thought you were keeping an eye out for a little diesel for my Mrs. That 1 series sounded spot on.
My new BMW is diesel in fact its my first diesel and I am way impressed, powerful, MPG is amazing and it has less emissions that a fairy's fart.
And I've never had any problems with any of my BMWs in the snow.
My 1 series was terrible in the snow. When it snowed I just left it parked on the drive, as it would embarrassingly get stranded on the slightest incline.
Maybe it's down to driving technique.
Any RWD is more difficult in the snow that FWD. However you just have to accept the car will go sideways, and that you have to be prepared to keep momentum up.
3 years ago I was getting up stuff in a RWD MX5 that most people were struggling up in FWD. However if I had stopped and tried to get going again it would have been impossible.
🙂
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Maybe it's down to driving technique.
Well if it is I never found the right technique, and I have driven plenty of RWD cars in the past. I have never had a problem in any other car, but getting the 1 series started on a uphill incline covered in snow was very difficult. It probably didn't helped that mine was fitted with wider rear tyres than most of them. Maybe a few bags of gravel in the boot would have helped?
Jason - Your on to a looser trying to get any rwd started on a hill in snow.
Maybe it's down to driving technique.
To some extent yes, but you can't get away from the fact that most rear wheel drive cars are absolutely rubbish in the snow compared to front wheel drive - unless you have winter tyres of course. Weight, wide tyres and rear wheel drive are all enemies of snowy conditions.
Back in the depths of Wales where I grew up, most of the local farmers used to keep an old small lightweight FWD car somewhere in the barn for when the snow arrived. Usually these were French cars, Renault 5, Peugeot 205, Citroex AX etc with thin tyres. This meant that when the snow arrived, they could still get out and about, down to the shops etc, etc. You'd be surprised how good any of these cars is in the snow - better than a lot of proper 4x4's
To some extent yes, but you can't get away from the fact that most rear wheel drive cars are absolutely rubbish in the snow compared to front wheel drive
I don't doubt that, but for us in most of the UK it really isn't a great issue in that we don't have regular heavy snow.
How much more would/does it cost to run a second hand BMW? eg 2002-2005 5-series estate? I'm comparing to eg Accord, Mazda6, Mondeo. There seems to be a lot of choice, and you undoubtedly get a lot of car, but what kind of premium would I be paying on insurance, etc?
Funkydunc - how come you don't have the chains on the drive wheels?
St - is that a grand a year on top of the lease fee or is a portion of the £xxx a month account for that.
"Funkydunc - how come you don't have the chains on the drive wheels?"
Its not my car! It was a picture that did the rounds last year when there was a thread about numpty BMW drivers!
And for the record I would never buy a 1 series as they are tiny, poorly built and no cheaper than a 3 series, I cant see why any one would buy one ?!!?
Lad used to work for us had a Audi A4 convertible on a lease deal.
He couldn't drive it as he needed 2 new tyres and the lease company had a T&C that stated only certain brands could go on and he couldn't afford them.
He was such a ******* cock.
Back in the depths of Wales where I grew up, most of the local farmers used to keep an old small lightweight FWD car somewhere in the barn for when the snow arrived. Usually these were French cars, Renault 5, Peugeot 205, Citroex AX etc with thin tyres. This meant that when the snow arrived, they could still get out and about, down to the shops etc, etc. You'd be surprised how good any of these cars is in the snow - better than a lot of proper 4x4's
& most I guess, would have proper winter tires on, makes such a difference, we used to run winter tires all year round on all our farm kit (Peugeot 205).
Forget BMWs, instead take a drive around Kensington, Chelsea, Mayfair or similar and marvel instead at how many multi-millionaires there must be given that you are driving past many hundreds of properties which all cost well over £1m. And many with £80,000 cars parked outside. I don't know why but it fascinates me that there are just so many people that can afford that kind of thing. Good for them and all that, nothing against them.