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I always thought the elite were smart - after all that's how they got to the top in the first place.
But the current state of affairs in the US seems to be panic - a more serious version of the unionists' panic in England after Murdoch published his 'the SNP might just win this one' poll re Scottish independence.
They're not really surprised are they? After all, the 2008 shock has led to a moribund recovery at best - with wealth inequality increasing they're surely not surprised that some populist extremist has made some dishonest'I'm on your side' noises to the masses and stolen a march on the incumbent elite...
It's hardly the first time in history this happened - Hitler did rather well out of this strategy in the 1930s (I don't think this counts as Godwin's Law does it?)
Luckily for us, Farage is a clown and we don't really like the extreme Right in the UK - Mosley never made any progress in the 1930s... so I don't think we quite have the same situation here...
There was something on Radio 4 news at lunch today that the Republican party may, in desperation, refuse to let him stand as their candidate... but all those people who apparently want to vote for him are unlikely to take to that too unkindly. All seems like a bit of predictable mess to me...
[url= http://newsthump.com/2016/03/03/psychiatric-hospitals-filling-up-with-time-travellers-sent-back-to-kill-donald-trump/ ]They ignored all the warnings...[/url]
Luckily for us, Farage is a clown and we don't really like the extreme Right in the UK - Mosley never made any progress in the 1930s... so I don't think we quite have the same situation here...
We've got JC.
The world has gone barking mad.
The GOP is so riddled with competing voices calling for ridiculous policies and vested interests that they have no idea.
And Trump presses the buttons of all the disenfranchised lower middle class who feel threatened by, well anything. A bit like all those people who voted for CallMeDave because of the right wing press in the UK.
There's an interesting photo going round of a Trump campaign baseball cap and a Bernie one. Guess which once is made in China and which one in the US
I always thought the elite were smart - after all that's how they got to the top in the first place.
Big big lolz!
That would imply that the playing field is level! Hahaha! Good one!
The world has gone barking mad.
Yes and No. When the middle and lower classes (ie: majority of the people) see their chances of a secure job/income and financial security in retirement getting torn away by the incumbent elite, you want to get rid surely? History shows that when those at the top take more than the masses feel is their fair share, and leave them with the scraps, that extremism takes over?
JC does come across as nuts, as does his Chancellor but a lot of people are losing out badly from Osborne's games and did so from Brown's idiocy, so you can see why they're getting traction...
My prediction is that come the next election, Labour will have split into a centre left party by those who think Corbyn has no chance of winning, and Corbyn and his gang. Meanwhile the Tories will have ripped themselves apart into two seperate parties: a Eurosceptic right wing, stealing Farage's support and a more moderate Europhile group - so we'll have more extremist parties in the UK too - more so than we do now
brooess - Member
I always thought the elite were smart - after all that's how they got to the top in the first place.
If by 'elite' you really mean 'rich and powerful', then they've only really got 2 tricks:
1) pulling up the drawbridge*
2) divide and conquer
(*followed by dropping a faceful of boiling shite into the faces of those below)
I think everyone can, should and does vote with their own self interest at heart.
Whilst that means for some people voting tory is the obvious choice (the rich, the retired, etc) and for others voting labour makes sense (the poorest, those subscribing to Keynesian economic theory, etc) those in the middle have a different view. You could put either in power and it would make not one iota of real difference:
*War in Iraq - did you notice apart from the news?
*Cut's to benefits or tax under the Tories - probably didn't affect you
*Disability allowance cut because computer said no? - You're on a sport themed forum, probably don't even know how much it is per week.
But we do have dreams and a conscience. And so what actually swings elections is how persuasive the guy selling us his views is. He's not convincing you to vote Tory or Labour, he's trying to convince you that what happens to the rich or the poor actually has any impact on you what so ever. That could be in how he's going to make your dreams come true, or tugging at your heart strings to help those poorer.
Which is why Trump won't be president. It's one thing convincing republicans to vote for right wing rhetoric. It's an entirely different kettle of fish to convince the guy in the middle come the real eelection.
Trump absolutely storms home in Florida, Rubio suspends campaign 😯
http://giphy.com/gifs/vintage-french-revolution-guillotine-wSRFaMfu2WeD6
Oh bollocks. Can we older types survive in a young society?
Because no one cares about the people he is ranting at None whites/Muslims/Women etc There is a large group of voters who think like the way Trump Speaks.
I hope Bernie wins over Clinton and Trump as America is bat-poop-crazy enough as it is.
It's pretty simple tbh, they just got used to a situation where they could depend on the votes of a huge section of US voters, without ever actually representing them. So they could merrily benefit from the support of assorted racists, misogynists, religious fundamentalists, teabaggers, nuggets, steamers, zoomers, trailertrash, rockets, kneejerkers and knuckledraggers without ever worrying about what they actually wanted. After all, they'd never vote democrat. And so they happilly encouraged that side of their support and gave the impression of pandering to them, never thinking that they'd ever have any real influence. Whether intentionally or not, Trump's inherited that block almost without trying. Cruz especially should have seen it coming since it's exactly what he was hoping to do.
It does still need a bit of suspension of disbelief tbh- here's a man whose supporters keep saying they like him because he "tells it like it is", when he obviously and constantly doesn't. To say the least. His inconsistencies alone make that clear even if you don't believe in fact checking, how can you "tell it like it is" when you've got 2, 3, 4 competing versions of how "it is"?
brooess - MemberJC does come across as nuts
Share with us his greatest nutty hits? I've not seen him do anything as nuts as going to war with doctors, selling the royal mail and banks for less than they're worth, or slashing the welfare safety net while giving tax cuts to the well off...
Thing is that on many policies, Trump is well to the left of the Republican party (Indeed, Cruz has made that a key point of his campaign)
so he's a sort of Blairite Nigel Farage 😀
Says either whatever the first thing that comes into his head or whatever will appeal to the audience he is yelling at or sometimes just shout random words out that mean nothing. If you hear something you like then great he's for you (if you don't listen to what he tells the guys down the road then you will still be happy)Thing is that on many policies, Trump
I've also just bet against Trump getting the nomination. Now as the others fall it's time for the establishment to rally the troops and pick it's 1 alternative. Trumps lead is big but if the others endorse one then it's a very different story.
Plus the Republican party isn't bound by the results of the primaries. They could easily go with someone else if they wanted. Problem would then be Trump running as an independent and splitting the vote.
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/07/donald-trump-why-americans-support ]This seems to be important. [/url]
In each of the speeches I watched, Trump spent a good part of his time talking about an entirely legitimate issue, one that could even be called leftwing.[b]Yes, Donald Trump talked about trade[/b]. In fact, to judge by how much time he spent talking about it, trade may be his single biggest concern – not white supremacy.
The GOP has been "right wing" in the sense that it has been dominated by very pro-business folk, and has kept a broad base of ordinary Americans by chucking in a load of social-conservative culture-war stuff about te gayz and abortion.
That primacy of business people has collapsed fairly suddenly under the pressure of someone who is arguing for the sort of rolling back of free trade that some people attribute the significant rise in US real wages and reduction in US income inequality in the early 20th century to.
I've only anecdote (anyone have a poll?) but significant numbers of Sanders democrats could conceivably vote Trump in a general, assuming Clinton to be the democratic nominee.
It's certainly an odd year... 😕
The trade argument is a good and powerful one but I'm not convinced it can make America great again as he puts it. Partly cheap labor has driven the off shore move and party free trade. Slapping trade tariffs on imports will result in a killing of any export market for US goods as the world responds.
It did also prompt me to look at Car/Truck Production
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_vehicle_production
The US is the 3rd largest producer/manufacturer behind China (probably mostly domestic) and the EU. Not to be sniffed at, though they still import 25%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_vehicle_production
which I assume would be made unpleasantly expensive by a Trump president. It would probably lead to some fairly punitive actions from the EU and Japan at that point.
The other problem he has (that the US really seems to struggle with) is the president needs to be supported by not only his party but his opponents. If Obama had it tough trying to get bills through congress imagine how Trump will do fighting the ideals of his own party.
Though if the Republicans go nuclear and try and get Cruz/Kasich to unite for the others against Trump as a single candidate and Berny fancies a solo shot all bets are off!
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/13/bernie-sanders-supporters-consider-donald-trump-no-hillary-clinton ]“As horrific as Donald Trump is, and he is a horrible, racist, misogynist idiot, I don’t think Hillary Clinton is any better. I feel like with Trump, he could at least inspire a revolution, even if it is against him. I prefer chaos to stagnation.”[/url]
[b]Not a poll[/b], treat with great caution. But interesting...
Just remember the people who select the two parties candidates are a tiny part of the overall electorate. The real battle will be who out of the two main candidates (Trump & Clinton) appeal to the bulk of the population. These voters will either vote Democrat or Republican because that is how they vote or they will have listened to what the two have said in the primaries. Trump so far has attacked women, the Hispanic vote and the coloured vote (by refusing to condemn the KKK). That means he is going to struggle to win much.
Also remember that in a presidential vote you don't have to win an overall majority of the vote, just the majority of representatives that each state votes in the electoral college. Clinton will win a lot of the big states (Florida, California, New York) which effectively means that Trump will have no chance.
Maybe a good time to have a late running independent on the ballot paper.
Will Trump be bad for the Republican elite ? Obama and Romney each raised and spent huge amounts, in fact Obama outspent Romney nearly 2:1 in 2012. There are just as many of the elite on the Democratic side, arguably more ? The old school Republican's are more worried about a Clinton victory than a Trump one.
[url= https://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/ ]linky[/url]
The old school Republican's are more worried about a Clinton victory than a Trump one.
That they are but do they think Trump means a Clinton victory, on the odds I looked at today not well backed for Trump. The only decent price was laying the bet against him getting the nomination. Clinton is the clear bookies favourite at this point.
cause they are all raving lunatics. trump is the least scary of them i reckon.
but all those people who apparently want to vote for him are unlikely to take to that too unkindly
What, and vote for goddamn socialist Hilary Clinton, a WOMAN?? AHAHAHA!
It's almost certainly going to be a broken convention (no overall winner) and traditionally the candidate with the most votes don't always win. The GOP establishment hates Trump but hates Cruz (who is just as nuts!) almost as much. Will they vote for the long way third candidate - very unlikely. It's a Hobson's choice but I think that they will vote for Trump.
Want to see how screwed up the GOP is, watch party members on FOX news in the US. They have some bizarre ideas.
That Clinton woman is grinning from ear to ear that disgusting woman. Pui!
The debate was watched in the far east by women there and the general comment is that Clinton woman is a nasty woman. The other bloke that was debating against her was a better person.
Clinton might win,[b] let's hope not[/b], but if she does the Merican industry will suffer ...
A bit like the borrow to spend lefties UK parties ...
Luckily we have JC and we know he is no Jesus Christ.
Maybe they already know that he's irrelevant...
that disgusting woman. Pui!
Chris won't like that.
[img] 
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perchypanther - Member
that disgusting woman. Pui!
Chris won't like that.
Ya, I know he could be the hipster PC clown innit coz this group of people are also grinding from ear to ear. I bet they like saying "look at me! I am cool! I am a hipster. We have Clinton woman!" 😆
Going back to the original question.... This pretty much sums it up....
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/05/republicans-donald-trump-party-anger ]The Republican Prty created Donald Tump. No wonder they can't stop him[/url]
[i]Still, the way to defeat Trump will not come through clever tactics or even the sharpest mockery. It will only come by understanding the roots of his appeal. Many of those rallying to his flag now are white, blue-collar Americans angry about jobs lost or wages frozen through globalisation and free trade; angry about faraway wars that seem to make no sense and fail to bring the catharsis of victory; and angry about an elite class apparently able to write the rules for its own benefit, gobbling up the wealth and leaving the taxes to be paid by the little people.
Trump’s Republican opponents can’t offer a remedy for those three wounds: they are too implicated in each of them. [/i]
binners - Member
Going back to the original question.... This pretty much sums it up....
The approach from the lefties is generally applying some sort of "facts" twisting and hitting it repeatedly to make sure it overshadowed the opposition. Their approach is also very subtle and stealth to convey being "civilised"
The righties usually apply the in your face approach that many see find it difficult to comprehend to the point of seeing them as mad. I think they are a bit lazy when it comes to twisting facts hence are see as the scaremongers.
If the right wants to defeat the left all they got to do is to apply the "gentlemanly" approach of toning down their delivery and by supplying alternative facts and to question the legitimacy of the "research facts" from the left.
Ya, I like the research facts coz that never ends. Have you read research journals? Ya, look at the come backs that goes in circle ... never cease.
If the right want to make them presentable then simply use those research facts coz they are all peer reviewed. Why reinvent the wheel when the arguments are already on-going ...
Now we can see who are the "rational" ones ... 😆
edit: oh ya ... my view on politicians ... ZM all of them regardless of affiliation.
Trump is popular because he rejects mass immigration and "neoliberal" economics which impoverish the West. It isn't rocket science. If a leader on the left were to do the same thing, they would also see their popularity rocket.
badnewz - MemberTrump is popular because he rejects mass immigration and "neoliberal" economics which impoverish the West. It isn't rocket science. If a leader on the left were to do the same thing, they would also see their popularity rocket.
The left will never use these line of arguments for the following reasons:
1. Utopian.
2. They need support from alternative voters en-massed. i.e. immigrants or recent immigrants.
I have more reasons but really can't be arsed to explain the feeling of the lefties coz they know that themselves ...
😀
edit: what the immigrants do not know is that the more immigrants that join them the more competition they will have to face from their own immigrants ...
Good points chewkw. That was certainly the strategy under New Labour as revealed by one of Blair's aides.
I have a feeling we are having something of a reverse Berlin Wall moment, though. There is such despair about the levels of immigration that any serious politician will now put reducing it at the centre of their manifesto, and increasingly have to mean it, unlike the current government.
Having encouraged an atmosphere in which the religious zealots and the "Tea Party"-type hooligans have reduced American political debate on the right to the level of "He's not even an American! Where's the birth certificate? Pay no tax! Shoot who you like!" gibberish, the GOP are now looking at the end result of their own cynical manipulations and have nobody to blame but themselves.
The interesting thing is, it's actually quite interesting. Like living inside a Hollywood thriller sourced from John Grisham or Robert Ludlum-land...
Trump so far has attacked women, the Hispanic vote and the coloured vote (by refusing to condemn the KKK). That means he is going to struggle to win much.
He doesn't want to win 51% of black people, urbanites, fundamentalists, and Hispanics - they're never going to vote for him anyway. He couldn't GAF if they don't like him.
He wants to win 100% of the white semi-urban/rural "common sense" vote - and he's doing really well among them (including women). Whites might be a contracting share of the electorate but they actually show up to vote every year.