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...the BAC TSR-2 strike / reconnaissance project? I'm an engineer who loves all things trains-planes-automobiles, weapons technology, space exploration etc. etc. Yet it was only during a visit to Cosford last week that I learned of the most advanced tactical strike and recon' jet that never was. How on earth did this pass me by? A fascinating aircraft with a multi-faceted politico-industrial tale interwoven and ultimately neutering what could have been a history making aviation project.
I'm stunned that I knew nothing of it. But thanks to a visit to the museum, I've got lots of reading, model making and other research to do. 😀
'Cos we canned it. Probably a mistake. Trashing the tooling certainly was.
Cool! Love Cosford all round, in fact had first (and so far only) flying lesson (in a powered glider) whilst in Air Cadets - remember being particularly impressed at the then-radical design of the TSR-2, not least on account of it resembling the Angel Interceptors from Captain Scarlet 8)
A typical example of a time where we lead the world in so many areas and just frittered it away through a string of crazy political blunders as we sucked upto the US. The Americans basically told us to cancel the project as they wanted to sell us their inferior F111 and didn't want the competition in the export market. Its a shame we didn't have the balls and courage to try to stand on our own two feet a bit more. This was basically the end of the independent UK Aerospace industry. A great shame.
An alternative point of view is that we simply couldn't afford to keep developing planes on that scale. We were spending an insane amount of gdp on aviation.
lovely looking thing, could be argued that the days of single/limited mission aircraft was coming to an end anyway, but it certainly laid bare the inter-service squabbling that still goes on to this day and no one comes out of it smelling of roses.
Arguably it did lead to the Tornado, which is perhaps a more cable aircraft.
Thread needs a picture for those who don't know what it looks like.
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I'd never heard of it either, until I went to Cosford a couple of years bac.
Arguably it did lead to the Tornado, which is perhaps a more [i]cable[/i] aircraft.
Fly-by-wire? 😉
It was a ground breaking aircraft and we didn't have the balls to build it and be dammed.
I think there was a lot of pressure from America and we still owed them big time for them saving us during the 2nd World War.
However I believe it was the wrong decision to cancel this aircraft and give up our lead in this area.
Tsr2 had to be one of my favourite aircraft as a kid- it was the highlight of troops to Duxford. Still love it now.
This quote pretty much sums it up-
"All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics. TSR2 simply got the first three right." - Sir Sydney Camm
I also loved the p1154, basically the offspring of a harrier and a phantom which could have beaten the jsf to being the first operational supersonic stovl aircraft by some years!
Massively over budget, probably obsolete by the time it entered service (if it ever did as there were some issues that were never solved).
Bureaucracy gone mad as well - they had whole committees set up to determine the position of a single switch and a whole other lot of people to work out exactly what wording should be on the caption below it.
56 people turned up for one meeting. The chairman said this is stupid, go away and sort yourselves out and come back again with less people. 58 attended the next meeting...
see, if he'd said "fewer" they'd probably have understood 😀56 people turned up for one meeting. The chairman said this is stupid, go away and sort yourselves out and come back again with less people. 58 attended the next meeting...
The project should have been awarded exclusively to BAC at Warton. There'd have been 20 at most at a critical design review meeting and the decisions arrived at would have been implemented quickly and unambiguously. It would have more likely been delivered on time and commissioned and obsolesence would have been years away.
Damn shame.
Damn shame.
Well, I suppose it was alright - but I would have preferred to see the Blackburn P150 come to fruition!
[i]but I would have preferred to see the Blackburn P150 come to fruition![/i]
The only just supersonic Buccaneer? that would have been even more of a massive waste of time than the TSR2
Yep, a classic case of politicians getting too involved. From an engineering point of view you couldn't fault it. But the organisational aspect it was a disaster.
I disagree regarding the Tornado. It is a classic case of a committee trying to design a race horse and ending up with a donkey. It was out of date from day 1 and outclassed by its rivals - a generation behind in technological terms.
An alternative point of view is that we simply couldn't afford to keep developing planes on that scale. We were spending an insane amount of gdp on aviation.
The French and Dassault have managed to though, haven't they? Arguably delivering more capable aircraft at lower cost within faster time periods than BAE and our European partners ever have.
Typhoon was a joke, we'd been developing that since....what...the 1970's? before it reached operational squadrons in the 2000's.
I disagree regarding the Tornado. It is a classic case of a committee trying to design a race horse and ending up with a donkey. It was out of date from day 1 and outclassed by its rivals - a generation behind in technological terms.
Not too dissimilar to the Tiffie then.
nickc - Member
lovely looking thing, could be argued that the days of [b]single/limited mission aircraft[/b] was coming to an end anyway, but it certainly laid bare the inter-service squabbling that still goes on to this day and no one comes out of it smelling of roses.
Hardly, seeing as how TSR is Tactical/Strike/Reconnaissance, so a multi-rôle jet.
Getting rid of the Gannet was inexcusable as well; an extremely capable anti-submarine/AEW aircraft, with one engine shut down, it could loiter for eighteen hours.
Tough as old boots, too; I put together a book on it once, had loads of terrific photos, including one where both wingtips ripped off at the hinge, pilot flew it back to base with a third less wing each side!
From an engineering point of view you couldn't fault it
IIRC it has engine resonance and overheating, problems, but I guess they could have been fixed.
I was recruited and did an apprenticeship as part of the scale up for TSR2. Shame it never made it but then I wouldn't have made it to a Buccaneer squadron which were without doubt the best days of my life. That's the aircraft I go all gooey over.
But without it, how will Japanese schoolgirls protect us from the meteors?!
The way in which it was cancelled still rankles, fifty years on.
Roy Jenkins announced the canning, with no advance notice. The plans were destroyed along with the tooling and jigs, in front of the workforce who'd committed themselves to building it.
From an engineering point of view you couldn't fault it
IIRC it has engine resonance and overheating, problems, but I guess they could have been fixed.
Also the delays caused by the complex undercarriage designed to handle rough improvised airfields which was a pointless feature on a large aircraft with a high wing loading which would require a long take off run.
But it had blown flaps, didn't that give it unusually high AOA capability and a comparatively short take-off run?
I think they did also have trouble with the gear though.
There was a big article in the aircraft mag I used to get as a kid, it's all remembered from there, I could be wrong 🙂
When I think about the TSR 2, I always think about the
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[/img] because it was the next feature in the mag.
Yes, they had big problems with the main gear. I've got some videos at home and even on smooth runways it was causing a problem.
CZ it was designed to drop a nuclear bomb, a mission that was already moving to the navy, and a secondary mission of recon, that was moving to satellites.
Too expensive ( at the time) too complex, the way it was cancelled was badly handled but it was probably the right decision
I have a vague memory from the cancellation time of large amounts of money being rumoured to have changed hands under tables from a certain US aircraft manufacturer. That's on top of pressure from the US govt.
Political donations?
Sold out, me thinks.
There was a possible export market - I think Australia had almost signed on the dotted line but at the last minute they went with the F111 instead as it seemed cheaper. That too suffered many problems and may have actually ended up costing them more than the TSR-2 would have cost.
There was a big article in the aircraft mag I used to get as a kid, it's all remembered from there, I could be wrong
I remember that - called "take off" I think. you put them together in a burgandy folder and I think the first mag had a feature on the A10. had the whole set but then wife forced me to throw them out when the kids arrived 10 years ago 🙁
Yes!
I heard from someone on the ground during tests that it had a hugely noisy radar profile. Hardly feasible for a recon. Another straw that added to the case against.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Collections-Lots-/29399/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=take+off+magazine
Some on ebay....