[Closed] How dead do you need to be?

I guess a better question is how old stuff has to be before doing stuff counts as archeology. Maybe it is like the tipping point from "vintage" to "antique"

I read somewhere it was a 100 years, so no one was left who knew the person personally.

There's no answer to this. it's tricky, You can get tangled up in all sorts of cultural offence. The answer is always get permission first, . Find descendants, find cultural representatives and be aware of disposing of the remains afterwards (give them a final say in what happens to the bones/mummies)

I guess a better question is how old stuff has to be before doing stuff counts as archeology. Maybe it is like the tipping point from “vintage” to “antique”

Thats the same question. So its ok to dig up a king from 1000 years ago, but if you dig up Aunty Vera that died 15 years ago you'd get arrested.

Glad I've chosen cremation

Vintage is generally 25 years, Antique is 100 years... got a mate in the trade

Glad I’ve chosen cremation

+1

and someone gets to hide my dust in some bog up a remote forest up a hill somewhere.

https://www.talkdeath.com/cemetery-overcrowding-leading-europe-recycle-burial-plots/

Glad I’ve chosen cremation

There's a memorial garden at Wendover where people scattered their loved ones ashes. Sadly it's on the HS2 route so is gone.

Glad I’ve chosen cremation

Thankfully so have most humans through history. We've Christianity (how will you be resurrected if you don't exist anymore) to thank for burials becoming a thing, it's surprisingly recently (1890-1900) that cremation was made popular (and legal) in the UK again.

Glad I’ve chosen cremation

+1. Cremation should be mandatory. Or; because cremation would cause more pollution, how about maceration and composting?

I think I'd quite like my ashes to be mixed into some concrete or something, so that my physical remains could then end up being part of a nice building somewhere. Or perhaps a motorway flyover.

We’ve Christianity (how will you be resurrected if you don’t exist anymore) to thank for burials becoming a thing

I think the opposition to cremation somewhat predates Christianity...

and someone gets to hide my dust in some bog up a remote forest up a hill somewhere

maceration and composting?

I think 2000AD had the best idea- resyk!

there is quite a lot of calorific value in a human once burning well, so just burn in the body in an EFW and generate some electricity, with the bonus of no ashes to worry about as the remains will be mixed in with tonnes of bottom ash. winner all round.

Its a question that`s bothered me for some time about archaeology. Just how dead do you need to be before its “OK” to dig up graves? 50 years? 100years? 500 years? where is the cut-off point?

God knows why, but I found myself talking to someone the other day about this...

The answer seems to be 'it depends' for example, when we die, if our loved ones decide to have us buried, you or they don't own the grave, they're buying a grant for exclusive burial and with so many of us being born and dying these days, the standard grant can be as short as 25 years. It can be renewed, and you'd hope your off-spring would outlast you by 25 years, but it's not always the case and 25 years after we die, if no one renews the grant your headstone could be removed and the plot re-used. But they can't remove your remains. You need a court order to exhume remains and a really good reason.

That's not always been the case though, in Cardiff we have 'Dead Man's Alley' a short path built in 1891, it cut through the ground of a Church that's stood in one form or other since around 1100 including it's grave yard. Even now, the graves it crosses over are undisturbed and marked.

I'd say if remains are discovered, or searched for because of a discovery of some historic documents or something, historians can excavate them because they're unmarked, but if it's a marked burial, they'd need a court order and a good reason, however old they are.

I'd happily be ground up and fed to starving animals or people.

My liver might be a bit chewy

Soylent Green

I read somewhere it was a 100 years, so no one was left who knew the person personally.

I believe this is correct.

Many years ago I was working on a building site in Bethnal Green, at one point, unexpectedly, the diggers started to drag up coffins and skeletons to the surface. And quite a lot of them.

An investigation discovered that back in the Victorian days there had been a workhouse on the site. Deceased residents were simply buried on the grounds of the workhouse. Many included children and babies, their tiny coffins were heart-wrenching.

Someone contacted the Daily Mirror which made it into a news story. It was however decided that the work could continue as the cemetery was over 100 years old and no living relatives were likely to be alive.*

The bones and pieces of coffins were collected and burnt in heaps, simply to acknowledge respect for the deceased. It wasn't straightforward and bits of bones/skeleton were everywhere, you could easily find yourself standing on part of someone's skull, for example.

Edit : * Sorry I mean no living relatives who knew them and are likely to be alive.

my physical remains could then end up being part of a nice building somewhere. Or perhaps a motorway flyover.

Upset the right/wrong people and that's a distinct possibility.

When I worked for the local council many moons ago I use to help out in the cemetery's grave digging if there was no tractor work and as oldmanmtb2 said a grave plot was for 100 years as it was deemed all close relatives would be dead by then. Though there were headstones that went much older than 100 years but then there were still a lot of empty plots available in the cemetery.

Just down the road from us they are digging up and reburying a fair few and finding all sorts of artifacts

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-59077550

Archaeologists have been working on the site and about 3,000 bodies have been removed from the church, which dates back to 1080, and will be reburied elsewhere.

I once discussed the potential for having sky burials in the Chilterns, you know something else the red kites could feast off...

There's an old graveyard behind the engineering block at Leeds. I was told by the prof that organised the landscaping of it that it was xx years after the last burial before you could do anything. They got parliamentary permission to act way before then as the place was dangerous and used some of the old gravestones to create a path and piled the rest in a corner and grew some grass over them.

I often think this when passing through the cemetery. Mainly, how long until the council sell it off to housing developers. These dead old dead people are taking up prime locations.

When I go they can put me in the bin for incineration at the veolia plant and generate some energy for the grid.

25 years after we die, if no one renews the grant your headstone could be removed and the plot re-used. But they can’t remove your remains.

Just squash your bits down a bit like a bin you can't be bothered take out yet?

I often think this when passing through the cemetery. Mainly, how long until the council sell it off to housing developers. These dead old dead people are taking up prime locations.

My dad (priest) did some exorcisms on a couple of houses that had been built on a saxon age burial ground 😬

My dad (priest) did some exorcisms on a couple of houses that had been built on a saxon age burial ground

did it work?

My youngest used to point at the cemetery as we passed and said that’s where the dead people live 👻

Free exorcisms with every house sold.

did it work?

Ask Carol Anne

did it work?

To my knowledge yes, but could just as easily been the new occupants being told what their house was built over having a "how do we solve this" moment without any appearance of ghosts or the like before the exorcisms.

but could just as easily been the new occupants being told what their house was built over having a “how do we solve this”

So Saxon demons weren't bothering them? How disappointing.

My mate had a job pushing gravestones over. Some kid had been hurt playing in a graveyard by a gravestone falling over. My mate wandered the graveyards of Edinburgh with some bit of kit to measure how wobbly the stones were. Anything past a certain amount of wobble he had to push over.

Probably the oddest job I've come across ever!

@FB-ATB 200ad and resyk +1. Might as well get some useful stuff out of me when I'm gone. It's not like I'm going to need my corneas when I'm dead!

I normally give it two weeks at least before grave-robbing. I'm not a monster.

My dad (priest) did some exorcisms on a couple of houses that had been built on a saxon age burial ground

.

did it work?

It appeared to for a while but then the houses got repossessed

t appeared to for a while but then the houses got repossessed

Bravo!!!

In the Uk there is some law about this - eg I knew I guy who studied bones and was allowed to dig up Napoleonic war dead in the UK.

It appeared to for a while but then the houses got repossessed

I heard the banks got spooked and decided to call in the debt. They can be so ghoulish sometimes.

We own a small graveyard and headstones need to be left in place 100 years but can be moved sooner with family permission. As mentioned above some are unstable and have to be laid down or repaired. I usually repair them as it looks better. Not sure about digging them up. I've had to do a fair bit of digging to remove brambles and old tree stumps but I've not needed to go down very deep yet. Does feel a bit wierd going at a grave with a pick axe and shovel.

My dad (priest) did some exorcisms on a couple of houses

Never go into a warehouse during a full moon!

On coffins, modern coffins last about 5 years before rotting away yet I've done re-openers where the first coffin have been buried 10's of years and made out of solid wood and they were as strong as the day they went in.

I also helped to exhume a body so it could be examined by the police. always remember that as the grave was shielded with tarpaulin and half a dozen coppers standing around watching and the police coroner present.

That repossessed joke deserves more love

We own a small graveyard

Wait; what?

How does anyone get to 'own' a graveyard? I mean, did you buy it? Was it land attached to a property you bought?

WE NEED ANSWERS!

I want a graveyard... 🙁

When I die I want my remains to be spread over the South Downs. I don’t want to be cremated though.

Some kid had been hurt playing in a graveyard by a gravestone falling over.

He wasn't just hurt he was killed. The council paid out compensation after getting slated at the fatal accident inquiry. I imagine that caused a lot of other councils to up their game.

When I die I want my remains to be spread over the South Downs. I don’t want to be cremated though.

Landmine?

Quite like the idea of cremation via power station. Or put me in the food recycling.

In the Uk there is some law about this – eg I knew I guy who studied bones and was allowed to dig up Napoleonic war dead in the UK.

I love how this post stands for almost everything about the internet.

Wierdest H&S visit was to a school extension on top of an old graveyard in Southwark. Everything was being re-interred down towards Barking and the contractors were separating all the bones form the old woodwork and sieving each loading shovel of earth removed.The whole area was tented over to avoid upsetting the kids still at lessons.

Anyone know how much gas it takes in a crematorium to fully combust a human body, either with or without a cardboard/ wicker/ wooden box? Seems like the risk of quite a bit of additional and avoidable CO2 to me.

My oh is an archaeologist, so I asked her. To knowingly dig up human remains requires a licence. Obviously your not going to be granted the licence to dig up remains of any age without good reason.
All remains must be treated the same, wether a 3000 rear old corpse or a 50 year old corpse, under tents out of sight and treated with respect.
If a body is unknowingly exhumed, if say the bones are mixed with animal bones or not easily recognised a licence can be applied for afterwards.
More than once a mattoc has gone through a skull. It's not all trowels and paintbrushes

Never go into a warehouse during a full moon!

Especially if you're a dyslexic priest. That could be very embarrassing.

Quite like the idea of cremation via power station.

You'd have to be ground up into quite small pieces to go through the gas turbine.

I'd like to be shot into the sea in a trebuchet. Cremated or whole, don't mind.

Or; because cremation would cause more pollution, how about maceration and composting?

Its a good idea environmentally but its tarnishes the occasion if mourners have to put ear defenders on as the coffin glides through the curtain into the chipper

Its maybe also  less elegant than an urn of ashes  to be  handed handed uncle Alan's mortal remains in four 25 kilo polythene sacks to be tearfully forked in at his favourite beauty spot (which seems to be a lot more popular with rats these days)

Quite like the idea of cremation via power station

I'm pretty sure new crematoria are more efficient but possibly not self-sufficient yet. Unless they get to keep and sell all the gold teeth

and was allowed to dig up Napoleonic war dead in the UK.

You'll probably find napoleonic war dead in any field in the uk if you sieve fine enough.

The origin of the line 'I'll grind their bones to make my bread' in Jack and the Beanstalk has its origins in a term for war-dead 'They gave their bones to make your bread' which is a reference to the practice of gathering up the dead from the battlefields of Europe bringing them back to the uk, grinding them up and selling them as fertiliser.

Its only since the WW1 that we've honoured and memorialised the soldiers rather than the generals from conflicts, before that, to all intents and purposes we ate them. There were dedicated 'Bone Grinders' in Hull  - businesses that received cargoes of bodies  from the Napoleonic battlefields and sold them on as fertiliser.

It's more about how much loot is in there, isn't it? And by loot I mine items of archaeological value of course.

I loved the darkness of 2000AD; they used to have some cracking themes and ideas of a dystopian future. 21st century reality is far more mundane and boring.

Anyone know where full stories can be found? Is there an archive available? I'd love to read through some of those.

Or perhaps a motorway flyover.

Appropriate user name…

businesses that received cargoes of bodies from the Napoleonic battlefields and sold them on as fertiliser.

What a splendidly heartwarming anecdote to start my weekend off with😂😂 I actually remember watching a documentary a while back where they talked about this. Grim..

I’d like to be made in to an entrant on the Bad Taxidermy website.

+1 for repossessed joke😂

Maccruiskeen, that stuff’s fascinating, any references for further reading?
Wasn’t there a crematorium somewhere in UK built next to a swimming pool so the pool could be heated by the furnace, iirc Daily Mail was outraged - seemed like an ingenious use of resources to me!
Fwiw ideally I’d like to be fed to pigs if I can’t heat a pool!

Wasn't it viv stanshaw who suggested "standing them upright in the victory garden as there's bags of calcium and goodness in the buggers yet"

Wasn’t it viv stanshaw who suggested “standing them upright in the victory garden as there’s bags of calcium and goodness in the buggers yet”

I think he was channelling Jeremy Bentham who's head still needs to attend meetings at UCL. IIRC its still his really body on display but not his real head. It went a bit nasty looking apparently so that's kept in a box and only comes out when important business is discussed.

He had the idea that rather than having an avenue of beech trees leading to your country house you'd have the stuffed and mounted corpses of your ancestors

gas it takes in a crematorium to fully combust a human body

Quite a lot and there are sizeable bone fragments left that have to be pulverised to get that run of your loved & probably bits of others mixed in too!

It’s more about how much loot is in there, isn’t it? And by loot I mine items of archaeological value of course.

People interpret grave goods as a signifier of high status -  that people buried with valuable possessions suggests they were venerated individuals.

Maybe it was  just the grave of someone who was  such objectionable arsehole that people couldn't bear the sight of anything that reminded them of him. They've basically been fly-tipped with all their gaudy shit that was cluttering up the place..

Archaeologist here. I've seen hundreds of skeletons but don't excavate them myself as we have specialists for that. Never used a tent but do use sun netting (this is not in the UK). Preservation is highly variable and depends largely on soil chemistry. Sometimes the bone is solid, sometimes like cheese, sometimes vanished. 'Field anthropology' can help determine whether a coffin or shroud had been used, largely by looking at whether bone movements occurred in a void. For example, if you're straight in the dirt your bones tend to rest in anatomical position but if you were in a box your jaw will drop, fingers and toes spread out etc. The positioning of grave goods can also be indicative, with 'wall effects', alignments where objects had been resting against a coffin.

Cremation wouldn't (traditionally) protect you from our prying eyes and hands 😀, as mentioned above, funerary urns contain plenty of fragments, sometimes identifiable.

Then we'll rip your teeth out to know what you ate and where you grew up, and plunder your Petrous portion (inner ear) for aDNA testing. Then you get your own set of finest quality ziplocks for all your sets of bones. Bloody luxury!

They’ve basically been fly-tipped with all their gaudy shit that was cluttering up the place..

MrsMC will need burying in quite a large skip then. Maybe a shipping container....🤔

Ha got to love the way there is an expert on almost everything posting here. 🙂

What is the reason for using the inner ear I guess it just usually has the most DNA material remaining?

@grum, yup it's just a matter of preservation likelihood. Teeth can work too. I work (ed before Mar 2020) in the tropics so our success rate is about 5%...

Being morbidly objective about such things, the idea that you can let dead bodies rest in place forever is basically impractical.

When you think about the length of time that the country has been inhabited by humans (about 40,000 years) and the total number of people that amounts to, then consider the potential number of bodies that can be, then consider that you're likely to be digging up, or digging close to, bodies just by doing some moderate excavation work anywhere that there is a few feet or more of ground cover. Do this in or around a Village, Town, City or even just a point where roads cross and the chances go up again...

Arthur C Clarke stated in 2001 a space odyssey that "Behind every man now alive stand 30 ghosts, for that is the ratio by which the dead outnumber the living.", apparently that's pretty close to the mark: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16870579

Or; because cremation would cause more pollution, how about maceration and composting

It’s a thing, not sure how available it is but it’s better than cremation from a CO2 point of view - linky

Sky burial FTW though.

Ha got to love the way there is an expert on almost everything posting here.

I know - go to repository for archeology and cheesemaking at present. Maybe we should cross the streams and start a thread about artisan cave aged bog butter.

Being morbidly objective about such things, the idea that you can let dead bodies rest in place forever is basically impractical.

Thats why the Toynbee Tiler recommends we use Jupiter for the purpose

People interpret grave goods as a signifier of high status –  that people buried with valuable possessions suggests they were venerated individuals.

There's much confusion/debate now about the meaning of things like mirrors, swords, spears etc as a signifier of either high status or even whether the buried are even men or women.

Plenty of churches round my way that have been converted to houses, I always thought having a graveyard as a garden must be a bit weird

Or perhaps a motorway flyover.

A variant of nominative determinism…?

Anyone know where full stories can be found? Is there an archive available? I’d love to read through some of those.

@bridges if you go to the site or download the app you can buy some of the digital compendiums, progs or just subscribe. There are a few free copies of things in there too.

Regarding owning a graveyard, the church in the village of Ford, just outside of Chippenham, which is where my family is from, was sold to a bloke who’s a cabinet maker, I believe, and he has to maintain the graveyard as there are people in the village with family buried there.
In my case, though, apart from my dad who was cremated, my family are buried in Slaughterford, a tiny village in the next valley, and the earliest burials there are from the beginning of the last century, including one relative who was killed at the battle of Arras in 1917, so it’s over a century now.

It’s a tiny churchyard, the church was trashed by Cromwell and his troops on their way to Bristol, to subjugate the Irish, and it was the Victorians who restored it, in an unusual display of good taste! I’d very much like to be buried there, it’s a beautiful, peaceful place, and there are still burials taking place there.

This thread has reminded me of the fuss ‘King Arthur Pendragon’ and his ‘Druid’ mates are making about Neolithic remains that are on display in places like Avebury Museum, demanding that the remains of ‘his ancestors’ are re-buried, because it’s disrespectful.
As he’s an ex-biker from Yorkshire, I’m certain that any investigation into his distant ancestors will show Viking, rather than Britons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Uther_Pendragon
Eejits. #rollseyes

DG Rossetti had Elizabeth Siddall disinterred a year after she was buried to retrieve a book of poems he had penned.

I'd say when there's something that can be learned from it. ie plenty to learn about digging up 1000 or 4000 year old bodies. Not so much 10 year old bodies. But then again, if there's a pending court case and a body needs exhumed, then it's perfectly acceptable to do it to a recently buried person.

So aye, i'd say it's all down circumstance and what's to be gained from it i guess.

Me personally, I don't really care tbh, give the body to schools, or chuck it in the wheely bin for all i care. I'll be deed. 😆