[Closed] How bad is the recession?

Hats off gwj72, good stuff.
aka_Gilo, it could have been expressed better. I'm sure that the people who have been having a proper bad time recently are warmed by your comments and comforted by the fact that even though you have done quite well over the last couple of years, that you too are suffering due to not being able to extend your house.

binners - Member

The rules are stacked in the favour of big business and they're becoming more so. If you asked me if you should starta small business now. I'd say you'd have to be out of your ****ing mind.

I shouldn't say this working for an organisation that provides capital for small business start-ups, but I couldn't agree more.

don - you don't want to let it go: fine carry on. I have nothing further to add.

i refer Gordy to the comment i gave some while ago

Honestly. I'm bitter about the fact that people like me are invisible. There's a lot of us but we don't even figure on the radar. Nobody cares! Really. Nobody gives a ****!

I hate to do this. Ah well I don't, but I know I'm going to get called troll on this...

When you had your successful business with your international clients. Other than yourself and your family - who did you give a **** about?

The rules are stacked in the favour of big business and they're becoming more so. If you asked me if you should starta small business now. I'd say you'd have to be out of your ****ing mind.

don - you don't want to let it go: fine carry on. I have nothing further to add.

i refer Gordy to the comment i gave some while ago

Sorry - I'm not sure what you're on about but there's is no need to elaborate. I won't be lingering in this thread. 🙂

Tioraidh.

gwj72 - I'm not even going to dignify that statement with a response, other than the obvious. **** you!!!

I have nothing further to add

Chill binners, it's Friday...
I think the level of angst that appears in some of the threads indicates that there is a lot of pressure on almost everyone. 🙁

I am genuinely suprised that some people comment that they wouldn't know there's a recession on - pleased for them of course, but I am curious where they live / work. From my perspective it's been appalling for the last 3-4 years and doesn't seem to be improving.

We took on massive debts and were spending money that none of us actually had. And I mean WE: the government, banks, companies, the people. IMHO we properly lost the plot, there were riots outside Topshop and Ikea FFS!

Why does this myth persist that British consumers are responsible for the credit crunch, and the global recession that followed ? How can people so easily forget the cause of the recession ........it only happened just a couple of years ago, not 50 years ago ffs.

I have always been impressed by Tory politicians, and press which they own, ability to manipulate people's opinions. But their ability to convince people to deny things which they have experienced, by simply repeating the same lie over and over again until they believe it, quite frankly baffles me.

And if there's one thing I've learnt as a result of coming on this forum is that people who would be described as "educated" appear to be particularly vulnerable - I don't see less educated manual workers so ready to accept that nightime is daytime simply because they have told so many times.

I started to formulate a theory as a while back as a result of coming on here, that "educated" people might have an unexpected tendency to be gullible because they are likely to have predisposition to willingly absorb, digest, and regurgitate, information which is fed to them.

And with politics I guess there's also a tendency to accept only that which fits in comfortably with your beliefs, whatever the evidence suggests. A bit like the creationists who despite the fact that they might very well be quite highly educated, insist on ignoring all evidence and believe that the universe was created in 6 days, because anything else just doesn't fit into their beliefs.

The credit crunch and the global recession that followed was caused by US subprime loan crises and the collapse of US financial institutions. Something which British banks, as with other banks across the world, were highly exposed to.

At the very heart of the crises/recession is deregulation, incompetence, and greed.........[i]by the banks[/i] - not the British consumers.

There is a case to be made that there has been far too much dependency on credit in recent decades, but that is a direct consequence of the neo-liberal experiment which demanded lower wages, a boom, and a deregulated market. The immediate answer is for working people receiving a living wage and strict regulation - the "red tape" so despised by the Tories.

But the reason for the credit crunch/global recession isn't because British consumers defaulted on their debts, it's because of US subprime mortgages and dodgy dealings by British banks.

And if there's one thing I've learnt as a result of coming on this forum is that people who would be described as "educated" appear to be particularly vulnerable - I don't see less educated manual workers so ready to accept that nightime is daytime simply because they have told so many times.

I started to formulate a theory as a while back as a result of coming on here, that "educated" people might have an unexpected tendency to be gullible because they are likely to have predisposition to willingly absorb, digest, and regurgitate, information which is fed to them.

have always been impressed by Tory politicians, and press which they own, ability to manipulate people's opinions

This is tedious at best.

Just because someone has a differing opinion to you doesn't mean that they are gullible and have been spoon fed the opinion by whatever newspaper they happen to read. To not be able to see this is incredibly ignorant! Blah blah blah daily mail. Blah blah blah gaurdian

Anyway FWIW I share the same experience as the banker. I've noticed things getting more expensive and I'm nervous about commiting myself to financial obligations, but I've kept my job and things are continuing as they were just a bit more cautiously.

The banking crisis crystalised the problem but it wasn't the entirely to blame. Building up a huge government debt wasn't done by the banks but it was made a big problem when they stopped lending money. Also some responsibility has got to lie with the people who borrowed too much money in the first place.

This is tedious at best.

So why the long spiel countering my comments then ?

If it's "tedious" people will simply ignore it and no other comment is necessary......that's a TopTip that is.

trailmonkey - Member
i got laid off around 6 weeks ago and i'm finding it hugely difficult to find another job.

it feels like the 1980's again in my world

But with nearly 6 inches up both ends and Dartmoor to play on, unlike the 80's

Chin up chimp, better than the 80's? 😉

 

and greed.........by the banks - not the British consumers

You wot?

So we weren't greedy when we bought houses too expensive, or we ran up huge credit card debts? We wouldn't have done the exact same thing in their position?

Do me a favour.

You seem to be starting from the premise that all wealthy bankers are scum, and adjusting your view of events and people to back that up.

Do you actually know anything about this financial industry you slag off?

he did not criticise them for the view he explained why the view was formed abd repeated
It would have been far more powerful retort if you had disproved thispoint with an argument

The credit crunch and the global recession that followed was caused by US subprime loan crises and the collapse of US financial institutions. Something which British banks, as with other banks across the world, were highly exposed to.

Building up a huge government debt wasn't done by the banks but it was made a big problem when they stopped lending money.

Also some responsibility has got to lie with the people who borrowed too much money in the first place.

This is what they have achieved it was not banking it was governments borrowing. It was not banking it was those that borrowed the money.

While many causes for the financial crisis have been suggested, with varying weight assigned by experts,[11] the United States Senate issuing the Levin–Coburn Report found “that the crisis was not a natural disaster, but the result of high risk, complex financial products; undisclosed conflicts of interest; and the failure of regulators, the credit rating agencies, and the market itself to rein in the excesses of Wall Street.”[12][13]

no credible economist I am aware of is blaming government [ except for not regulating bans well enough ] nor borrowers.
You may wish to read on the selling of mortgage securities as well to see hwy the affect in america was so large

Molgrips

Dont believe the hype.

My company is doing OK, I wouldn't say it's doing good, but I get by, I also get to help out a lot of people and I very much like that 😀

That said I don't have any faith in the banks or financial systems and since the recession they have definately become worse.

We as a race have found ourselves in a cold dark place and that comes down to philosophy and very poor leadership.

The individuals who are in charge of our resources as a species are only concerned with power and control. Their short sighted incompetence and lack of ability to manage resources efficiently and effectively, makes it far less likely that we will survive as a race.

They are the enemies of us all, and should be dealt with accordingly. Unforunately they control the judicial and financial systems and as such the army, police and advanced techonological weaponry.

We are allowed to believe that we have control by a democratic process that is mearly a sham, however if freedom is the individuals right too choose and no one in their right mind would choose to go along with the madness that is our modern way of life.

Are any of us truly free ❓

We are slaves to the will of individuals who care nothing for our race or the world that gave birth to it.

It is my opinion, that we are at war.

Molgrips

Dont believe the hype

I don't, that's my point.

They are the enemies of us all, and should be dealt with accordingly. Unforunately they control the judicial and financial systems and as such the army, police and advanced techonological weaponry

😯

You really are paranoid.

Thats all quite profound for a Friday morning kaesae. If anyone needs me I'll be underneath the table, tinfoil helmet on, awaiting the apocalypse 😉

I think in fairness some of the opinions expressed here are close to the truth but way over simplified. There wasn't one simple cause of the banking crises. And given nobody has mentioned the role of the auditors and the accounting standards board yet, tells me we have no economists posting.

But if it makes it easier to digest, lets get a posse up, with some torches and pitchforks. And go and get Fred Goodwin before he has a baby's face off.

+1 gwj72.

I don't, that's my point.

Your account would be credible if we [UK] all /or a large number of us defaulted on our loans prior to the crash resulting in this crippling banks and causing the subsequent depressions. Is that what happened? I am happy to see your evidence or a link to suggest this. I think that is just not true tbh.

Of course it is more complicated than demonising bankers but suggesting govt borrowing or individual borrowing was responsible it is not accurate; regulation is a factor but that just shows you cant trust a banker 😉

Of course it is more complicated than demonising bankers but suggesting govt borrowing or individual borrowing was responsible it is not accurate

I've been saying all along that it's spectacularly complex soup of interdependent factors - financial, economic, regulatory, social and psychological. Saying 'oh those damn bankers' is utterly pointless and actually damaging. So I'm not claiming anything so simple as 'it's the fault of the borrowers'.

Binners raises some important issues. It's too easy to bankrupt a UK company and start again. In other countries then abuse of company assets can lead to prosecution for mismanagement with fines payable from private rather than company assets. A two-year ban on starting another business or being the director of a company would also limit the scope of serial fraudsters.

I heard that one particularly unpleasant character I used to know is currently living it up in Cyprus on the ill-gotten gains from bankrupting businesses paying himself and other businesses he owned with money the companies didn't have. Who paid for this lifestyle? The creditors. And as Binners notes, it was all done legally.

It will get better OP!

When? god knows but every country has been there.

Interestingly, it was Glorious Leader - Comrade Gordon, while chancellor, who deregulated company law to allow that to happen. I'd assumed that it would be a Tory who'd pulled that particular stunt.

After it happened to us twice I did a bit of research and discovered that there are indeed people who do it on a serial basis. Gleefully skipping from Limited Company to Limited Company, unconcerned about the trail of misery that they leave behind for honest and unsuspecting people.

Somehow I doubt we'll be seeing it repealed any time soon though. Depressingly

Interestingly, it was Glorious Leader - Comrade Gordon, while chancellor, who deregulated company law to allow that to happen. I'd assumed that it would be a Tory who'd pulled that particular stunt.

why ? it should be pretty obvious by now that the Labour party are economic neo liberals. tories and nulab = two cheeks of the same arse

here's a pic of maggie and gordon highlighting their irreconcilable differences.

[img] [/img]

Difficult to know who to hate more in that picture isn't it? Given both their legacies.

It wasn't political bias. I'd just assumed it would have been a change in law that went along with the whole Big Bang deregulation of the city under Thatch. Apparently it was quietly brought in by Gordo.

At least with the Tories, they'd gleefully trumpet the fact they were about to shaft you. At least you knew where you were

are you suggesting that the tories are a slightly better choice as sir at least has a chance to 'lube up' 😯

Oh Christ! What have you done? I've now got the thought of Gordon Brown 'going in dry' seared into my brain now

AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! 😯

Wonder how Thatcher feels knowing that people will celebrate her death. As a generally compassionate country it's a rare occurence.

I don't thinks she is currently capable of thinking enough to feel anything. If nothing else she had a clear vission and made it very clear how she intended to achieve her objectives. You at least knew what you were voting for.

I am not sure tbh
look at privatisation, there was a very credible case put forward [at the time] that she did this to pay for benefits [ to cover up the PSBR] and marketed it as a principled policy stance to the masses.
The iron lady and not for turning were perhaps the start of soundbite politics. IIRC she had elocution lessons as well so it may have been the start of mass media politics or the acceleration in presentation. So we get smiley Tony and happy caring Dave. We dislike Grumpy gordon and anonymous miiliband etc

Thatcher's privatisation programme was announced in the [url= http://www.conservative-party.net/manifestos/1979/1979-conservative-manifesto.shtml ]1979 Conservative manifesto[/url]. It was a philosophical choice.

I did not know that [ obviously]
however reading the section it was quite limited in scope and showed no actual moral objection to many of the nationalised industries like rail which she then privatised iirc.
Interesting though thanks

We want to see those industries that remain nationalised running more successfully and we will therefore interfere less with their management and set them a clearer financial discipline in which to work.

High productivity is the key to the future of industries like British Rail, where improvements would benefit both the work-force and passengers who have faced unprecedented fare increases over the last five years.

Obviously it is fair to conceed you make a valid point but the scope was vastly increased to fund PSBR will try and see if i can find a link to the article I recall. I am doubting my own recall mind

15000 jobs going just what did they all do, and get paid for not to do, as now nobody will be doing their jobs.

I've no doubt that the need for cash was higher than forseen in 1979. I think you'd agree though that the 79 manifesto was a clear statement of what was planned and those plans were carried out with conviction that sometimes tipped into ruthlessness.

I was studying economics at the time and it was fascinating watching monetarist economics being used to effectively control inflation whilst producing the textbook side effects of high unemployment and a shake out of less viable businesses. By the time John Major was in charge Britain was very much on its financial feet again.

the 79 manifesto was a clear statement of what was planned and those plans were carried out with conviction that sometimes tipped into ruthlessness.

I can't remember the detail beyond seeing inflation below 5% in the 80s from the high teen figures inherited. I'm sure there's a graph somewhere but I couldn't find one that goes further back than 89 with a quick Google search and my wife is hassling me to go to an "apero". Happy Googling.

whilst as a business we are staying in credit the area we work in north manchester bury rochdale oldham has taken a significant hit and is not getting any better virtually every suburban pub is gone most independent shops have done the same unemployment is rising..

Binners ...

Just as a point of interest, the creditor who put themselves into insolvency, then pre-packed and re opened they didn't happen to use the same or similar trading names did they ?

Had a very similar experience ourselves, with the director doing just that (which is perfectly legal with the intention of business salvage) BUT there are very strong phoenix laws under the Insolvency act which prohibits the use of any previous trading names etc. Abuse of this is a Criminal offence by the director resulting in full liability of all debts, as well as criminal charges including fines and imprisonment.

We bought that to the attention of the Director who had pocketed our possessions and lo and behold payments were made.

Also worth looking at your old sales contracts (assuming you have already) as to when ownership of the work done was passed to them. Normally this would be stipulated as being on receipt of payment, in which case you could look to re-posses the active website (or demand payment for same) Can you re-posses a website ????

Regards the economy, very similar boat to Binners, holding onto what was a solid business by the skin of our teeth, due mainly to cash-flow rather than turnover.

With credit being so tight amongst the business community what used to be produced on 30-90 terms now gets paid for upfront. Banks certainly are not interested in business investments, nor lending. To the contrary we lost our overdraft facility, and had to put down substantial deposits to retain streamline and retail finance.

Small firm loans have all but disappeared, and product development and innovation is going out the window.

The only reason we keep fighting on is the employees we have, who we care about a great deal. We have been able to weather the worst of it by selling off personal assets, and thankfully sublet a portion of our business premises.

Our Lease holder also came to the table with a significant reduction in rent in order to retain us which again, has got us through the worse of it. Collective arrangements such as this are to the benefit of all.

Unlike the RBS who forced one of our competitors into insolvency in order to obtain the premises that were held as debenture. Similar to us they withdrew their overdraft facility pushing them to the brink despite remaining profitable in trade. Not fans of them all.

The CBD around us would have over 50% vacancy rates, so a lot of business has already folded unfortunately.

Its certainly not a lost cause, and we have undergone extensive streamlining and cutbacks but I am confident that things will improve.