[Closed] How angry are Americans?

The penny may be dropping.

It's a less severe version of whoever it was that said society is only three meals away from revolution.

Give them more guns

I had a similar discussion about this with some American friends. They reckon the anger and frustration comes from the fact that they are all absolutely wound up because of the amount they have to work. They only get two weeks per year holiday if they are lucky and many have to keep down two jobs to make ends meet. Their general quality of life is pretty miserable.

Huge generalisation of course, but IMHO as a nation they're "doing it wrong". They seen obsessed with money and status, they basically live to work.

I've always said the 'American Dream' was the unwavering belief that if you're the 'little guy' you can, and indeed should, be screwed over and exploited by 'the big guy' for their benefit - in exchange for the small chance that one day you might be 'the big guy'.

There has to be a point when you wake up one day and realise you're never going to be the 'big guy'.

If you make everything a competition, then there has to be losers as well as winners, by definition. My generally progressive father-in-law couldn't understand this point.

It's all relative. The loser in a pie eating competition still gets to eat all the pie they want.

I sometimes struggle to see the US as a first world country.

EDIT That's following the Wikipedia definition:

in modern usage, "First World country" generally implies a relatively wealthy, stable and functional non-theocratic democracy with a reasonably well educated population, or just any developed country.

My ex FiL who was in the oil drilling business told me how most of his American colleagues were infatuated by bigger houses/cars/boats etc. In one instance a close colleague got two promotions in the space of two years; but wasn't entirely happy about the second one as he'd just bought a bigger house and a boat and now was going to have to think about even bigger ones again. It is a view constantly regurgitated by hollywood movies where the successful guy in the movies (always a man and usually white) has the big house and the big car.

I work with Americans every day. Mostly, they are not dicks and not that angry.

We don't talk about the Donald though. He is a dick.

I wouldn't judge Americans as a nation but our parent company is American and we have a lot of contact with them

To say they have a strong work ethic is putting it mildly. When they visit us for a week or two they are mostly stunned by the acceptable level of slacking and by their own admission weekends are mostly 'lousy' or 3/10. "You rode your bike this weekend? In the rain? Holy crap last time I rode was 2011 or was it 2012??!!" etc etc

I think if they didn't speak (roughly) the same language things would be very different

It's all relative.

Yes and no. Depends what the aim is. You can't all be CEOs, otherwise who's going to clean the toilets? Furthermore, America needs a quota of toilet cleaners (until robots are perfected, which is a significant point), so they could be considered losers.

Unless we make sure toilet cleaners get a good wage and can afford a decent standard of living, in which case not so much of a problem. And if you want to ensure the toilet cleaners are ok, well then you might just be a leftie.

There does seem to be a lot of consumption/consumerism in the general day to dayness of America/Americans. Not only do many people live in detached houses with garages, but those garages all have electric door openers. The fridges are enormous, and are always full. It seems that mountain bikers buy a new bike every couple of years - and the UK style of buying a new frame and swapping bits across seems to have confused American marketing managers who reckon we should surely all be on 27.5in bikes by now.

Honestly, anger and fear go hand in hand. So with a media telling you to be scared 24/7, with politicians knowing they can get elected by playing on your fear, it's no wonder people are more scared and therefore more angry.

I don't have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It's a depression. Everybody's out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel's worth, banks are going bust, shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter. Punks are running wild in the street and there's nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there's no end to it. We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat, and we sit watching our TV's while some local newscaster tells us that today we had fifteen homicides and sixty-three violent crimes, as if that's the way it's supposed to be. We know things are bad - worse than bad. They're crazy. It's like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don't go out anymore. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we are living in is getting smaller, and all we say is, 'Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials and I won't say anything. Just leave us alone.' Well, I'm not gonna leave you alone. I want you to get mad! I don't want you to protest. I don't want you to riot - I don't want you to write to your congressman because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street. All I know is that first you've got to get mad. You've got to say, 'I'm a HUMAN BEING, God damn it! My life has VALUE!' So I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell, 'I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!' I want you to get up right now, sit up, go to your windows, open them and stick your head out and yell - 'I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Things have got to change. But first, you've gotta get mad!... You've got to say, 'I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Then we'll figure out what to do about the depression and the inflation and the oil crisis. But first get up out of your chairs, open the window, stick your head out, and yell, and say it: "I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!"

I must admit I always find it a bit hard to care about Clark Griswold's Christmas bonus as he 'needs' it to pay for a swimming pool. His house is massive already! 🙂

To say they have a strong work ethic [b]forced on them[/b] is putting it mildly.

FTFY.

Also worked with 'murcans, on occasion.

Mostly they weren't angry dicks, either.

I can't say I'm over-enarmoured by the working culture, which does appear to very much value bums on seats over productivity, and being seen to be doing something over actually doing something.

Happiness = Reality - Expectations

Sure it's hard to achieve the American dream but what's amazes me is why the Britishh are so angry... I mean with expectations like that 😉

Oh and those northerners... then there's the Welsh... oh and the Londoners... angry angry...

Re: consumption
Does make for a great second hand bike market. People who must have the latest and greatest before they even have tried the sport...

Northwind has it.
Just as in - Bowling for Columbine - when they linked a lot of the Americans gun problems, to the fear and paranoia that is fed to them by their media.
Their politicians know this and choose when to use it.

Work with quite a few 'Mericans

"Do you own a gun"
"Yerp, lots of them"
"Why?"
"To protect myself and family"
"What are you so scared of?"
"All the bad guys, and the government"
"And you say things are bad in Britain?"

Angry and scared...

I'm sat in my beige cube right now. If I bob my head up I can look out onto the rainy Seattle street below.

I've been in the US for around four years now, the first three and half in California, then up here since August.

It's truly a great and terrible place, with winners and losers all around. I'm not really sure how I feel, I love it and loath it. Most of the people I know are pretty chill, and not very angry - but to be fair I mainly know middle class, middle aged, high tech workers.

I get 26 days PTO (N.B.this includes sick days), decent money and I work 8-4 most days with subsidised travel from my (just a bit too nice) suburban home (conveniently near a fantastic little MTB park). My wife has just had knee surgery arranged at a time to suit her in a beautiful new hospital. It will cost half a new bike, (insurance will cover the other $100k). My kids school is newish, has reasonable teachers and decent facilities. The skiing is 40 minutes form my house, and I see mountains whenever the clouds let me.

Every day we drive in past big homeless encampments, about 2/3 of the country are 3 paychecks away from joining them. My employer can fire me for wearing odd colored socks. My kids have 'active shooter' drills at school. In many states a poor person can only get treatment at the local A&E. A significant portion of my pay (which is progressively taxed at 28% - no state tax in Washington but it was another 9% in California) goes to fund the world's largest military which is routinely deployed in ways I don't approve of. If I mess up in some way my family could end up on the street/living out of a car. My kids might grow up in a country with restrictive abortion rights (I'm looking at you Republicans). Our household income is pretty good (probably top 5%), but if we (I) earned much less life would be significantly less comfortable - and I don't mean buying a smaller yacht - I mean thinking about paying the bills at the end of the month.

I'm not angry - but I can see how people get that way, and I think it will be an interesting election year.

Unless we make sure toilet cleaners get a good wage and can afford a decent standard of living, in which case not so much of a problem. And if you want to ensure the toilet cleaners are ok, well then you might just be a leftie.

That there is Communism at work.

Under President Truman's 1947 Federal Loyalty-Security Program, citizen molgrips will be indefinitely imprisoned until he repents his evil thoughts.

Don't forget you can get loyalty points for flushing out any Reds in the beds, loyal STW posters.....

I've lived in Colorado for 10 years. I work 40 hours a week. I ride my bike, snowboard or climb at least four days a week. I get 4 weeks paid holidays a year. I own three guns. I have a very liberal circle of friends. I would never consider living the UK again. Sure it has it problems and a percentage of the population are dicks, but where doesn't?

seadog101 - Member

Work with quite a few 'Mericans

"Do you own a gun"
"Yerp, lots of them"
"Why?"
"To protect myself and family"
"What are you so scared of?"
"All the bad guys, and the government"
"And you say things are bad in Britain?"

Angry and scared...

I watched an interesting programme last night on Sky News, about Guns and the Police in the US, their idea that everyone is either a 'Bad Guy' or a 'Good Guy' is frankly terrifying - 'bad guys' aren't human, they're more akin to physical manifestations of demons in the minds of a lot of people, which makes them terrifying, but also it’s only right to kill if you can. No grey area, no difference of opinion - it's them and us - a lot make it a race issue, but it's not really - it's a 'them and us' issue - if they don't look and sound like you, they're a 'bad guy' - a lot of poor people, which of course means a disproportional number of non-whites are 'bad guys' until proven otherwise.

The US Police in the programme were taken to Scotland and saw the police deal not only with the usual drunks, but with people with mental issues and knives - they all understood the idea of "preserving life" it just never occurred to them that that extended to others. When they returned home they had to deal with a guy with mental issues who was smashing his house up with an axe – they admitted that usually, they’d have shot the guy – but they tried the British way, it took a lot more of them, and more time but they arrested him and shoved him in the back of a car with a friendly “see a doctor!” Afterward they interview the Police Officer, he looked a bit gutted really, he admitted no one got hurt, but he didn’t seem think the potential risk to him (shotgun, piston, body armour 10 mates for back-up) was worth not shooting the suspect and that seemed to be the cause of these recent police killings, the Police involved had dehumanised the ‘bad guys’ to such an extent that the merest chance they might be injured, wasn’t acceptable, but shooting someone, 2, 4 even 18 times was.

I've lived in Colorado for 10 years.

A bit of an out lier in terms or US States. Colorado and Utah are the only States where I've thought I could live here. The whole LDS thing means getting a job in Utah would be hard, so that only leaves Colorado.

I spent a month in San Francisco before Christmas and from what I saw my conclusion was that although America likes to think of itself as the leading developed nation, I would put it around halfway down. In terms of health provision, education and the way the country treats its poor (the homelessness around SF is staggering - camps under freeways etc) they've really messed up. We should take them back, sort it out...

My wife has just had knee surgery arranged at a time to suit her in a beautiful new hospital. It will cost half a new bike, (insurance will cover the other $100k)

Medical coverage varies a lot. Good jobs come with good policies and you get more money covered - but not everything. If you need more treatment than your policy covers - tough, you have to fork out. And lots of things wouldn't be covered.

A friend of mine who has decent family income from a stable professional job has mental health problems, and was sectioned for two weeks for her protection *against* the wishes of her own doctor. Her insurance would then not cover it, so she then had a three grand bill to pay.

I'm not angry - but I can see how people get that way

I have a problem with this attitude. You SHOULD be angry, because your country easily has the money and the means to help those who suffer greatly, but it chooses not to. That is shameful.

Sure it has it problems and a percentage of the population are dicks, but where doesn't?

That's no excuse. America SHOULDN'T have problems, it doesn't need to; it simply chooses to have them, because it doesn't care. That ****ing boils my piss, frankly.

Actually let me clarify that. A lot of Americans care, there are of course many good people as everywhere else, but enough of those who hold power don't. And they brainwash the people who would otherwise vote for change. Which is equally ****ing disgusting.

My employer can fire me for wearing odd colored socks.

For that reason alone it would be a no-go for me....

And can we please stop referring to the Yanks as Americans as that may cause upset to the Cannons and Wet Backs.
I'd rather we called them Sceptics.

Yanks are people from New England only.

Molgrips +1

It's odd but when I went to China and people asked what it was like, the best description I could give of the experience and general feeling of people's lives was like a more polluted version of America but with better food. I know it can't really be true but the end result felt eerily similar even if they got there by different routes.

My BiL fainted a few months ago in disneyland - buggered up the queue for one of the rides 😆

They took him to hospital and investigated the living shit out of him. All because he has a decent medical plan. He didn't need half that stuff doing, and he saw how much each individual specialist was charging for 15-30 minutes.

At the same time there are hundreads of thousands / millions of people with third-world medical provision in the same country.

It's utterly ****ing nuts

He's English btw and couldn't believe how unproductive his company was when he moved over there

Funnily enough working in America everyone over here thinks that Europeans are overworked, underpaid with a dire quality of life.

Your assumptions on how Americans are is very different from reality, as there's are about you.

Do not make the mistake of taking note of polls, as has shown recently most polls are complete and utter crap.

The OECD put the quality of life of the UK significantly behind that of the US in their most recent survey.

Been doing a bit of work on a us-based social media property this week and I've not noticed significantly more anger than on UK equivalents.

Both nations have been very grumpy the last couple of weeks.

The standard of written English seems much lower though. Is that something you ex-pats have observed?

Your assumptions on how Americans are is very different from reality, as there's are about you

I do know quite a few Americans quite well.

The OECD put the quality of life of the UK significantly behind that of the US in their most recent survey.

The results of those surveys depend heavily on how much they weight buying power or disposable income, the mean of which in the US is quite high.

People in glass houses should not throw stones. I have had the great fortune to live in 4 very different countries so far in my life and by far none of them were perfect in anyway whatsoever. However to believe what is written in one survey and to ignore the huge problems in ones home country is very naïve.

It is easy to bring the attention of a speck in another persons eye than it is to deal with the large branch sticking in your own.

People in glass houses should not throw stones

That makes it sound like a competition - like it's a personal thing, whose country is the best?

It's not - it's pointing out wrongness where you see it. I see it here as well as in the US. I'm absolutely not ignoring the problems in my own country - but we're not talking about that, this thread is about America, not which country is best. We could start another thread about the UK but it does come up quite often in general.

We could start another thread about the UK but it does come up quite often in general.

Just about every other thread!

And yes, America is well and truly f***ed up, a land of plenty for the rich and one of destitution for the poor; with guns thrown in just for added misery.

And the really scary part is that most of the Tory party would prefer the UK to be more like the US!

What I am trying to say is that you are taking what you read in the press and inaccurate polls and stating it like fact. A bit like what Donald Trump does. It simply is not like that. One thing that you find incredulous is normal to other people and vice versa.

Don't me misled by inaccurate facts, that is the downfall of meaningful conversation.

A good example is the above regarding destitution for the poor and how f$$ked up America is, yet according to OECD and World Bank figures, the US and UK both have 15%, the same level. So whilst pointing out that one country is f@cked up, the one you are living is no better.

A better question to ask would be why does Italy have 30% of their population living below the poverty line?

My employer can fire me for wearing odd colored socks.

I regularly stagger about the place in odd socks. Thankfully I am my employer and couldn't give a toss. Don't think I'd get on well working in the USA though.

What I am trying to say is that you are taking what you read in the press and inaccurate polls and stating it like fact

I'm not.

A good example is the above regarding destitution for the poor and how f$$ked up America is, yet according to OECD and World Bank figures, the US and UK both have 15%, the same level. So whilst pointing out that one country is f@cked up, the one you are living is no better.

Income inequality is higher in the US though. And tens of millions of people have no health insurance. Don't you consider that fact alone to be a f@ck up?

I'd also wonder how many of the people living in the US were counted for the OECD stats, the large undocumented populations would have a significant impact if they were included.

Of my one experience all I can say is it's a really strange and quite ****ed up place.
The rights of the individual to do what you like are paramount but the fact that you can get your luggage searched at the airport while you are not present and things like that just don't stack up. The pick 3 random principles and say your willing to die to protect them while ignoring everything else.

The US has the income inequality of a third world country, and very poor social mobility, yet people are still indoctrinated with the myth of the American Dream. That's enough to make people pretty angry.

http://www.salon.com/2015/03/07/the_myth_destroying_america_why_social_mobility_is_beyond_ordinary_peoples_control/

it's a 'them and us' issue

Sadly, that's a human characteristic not an American one. I've been on the thick end of "them and us" and I don't live in Merica.

Income inequality is higher in the US though. And tens of millions of people have no health insurance. Don't you consider that fact alone to be a f@ck up?

Especially for a country which could so easily afford to provide a decent standard of living for everyone. The total lack of a safety net is just barbaric in a supposedly first world country.

That's one the main reasons I want to be a leftie. To erode the concept of 'them' and 'us'. In other words, let's help those who need help, instead of blaming them for their own situation.

Even when it is their own fault, they need help to get out of their situation, not sanctions.

The total lack of a safety net is just barbaric in a supposedly first world country

Same can be said about the UK. You pretend that the countries are very different yet they are not.

You use income inequality as a good example, but based on the UN figures the UK and the US are roughly the same.

Again, there seems to be a fascination / obsession in the UK to sling mud at the US yet the big stick in the eye at home is not being addressed. Very odd behaviour.

Not really we have the NHS so one really can say there is a safety net for those without adequate health insurance

If you want to accuse others of pretending use another measure.

FWIW there is some merit in your broad point but it is also ok to compare and contrast as in some areas we are better than them [ healthcare is clearly one of the, as is gun laws] and in others they outperform us .

The US has Medicaid and medicare. No one slips through the net.

The mis-information peddled in the UK media that people don't get treated and die in the US is about as accurate as the crap that is peddled in the US media about the NHS.

Don't believe everything you read.

How angry are Americans?

[img] [/img]

Fairly?

Again, there seems to be a fascination / obsession in the UK to sling mud at the US yet the big stick in the eye at home is not being addressed.

Not at all. This thread isn't about problems in the UK (we have 1000s of threads on here which cover that).

Don't believe everything you read.

Perhaps you should read a bit more eg http://www.amazon.com/2-00-Day-Living-Nothing-America/dp/0544303180

Ok, so it is just about feeling better about yourselves. Understood.

You use income inequality as a good example, but based on the UN figures the UK and the US are roughly the same.

Based on virtually every other figures the US is far, far worse. But yes it's a problem here too, well done. Whataboutery at its finest.

LHS do you actually post on ST other than to get all huffy and defensive if anyone says a word of criticism about America?

Ok, so it is just about feeling better about yourselves. Understood.

Nope. Nothing wrong with looking at other societies and passing comment on the good / bad in them.

Have you read the OP at all - you might find that the topic of whether Americans are happy with America has made national news and lots of people are discussing it. It's called current affairs.

Using the two most common indexs

1. The ratio of the average income of the richest 10% to the poorest 10%

UK 14%
US 15%

As a comparator, Norway is 6.1%

2. The ratio of the average income of the richest 20% to the poorest 20%

UK 7.2%
US 8.4%

As a comparator, Norway is 3.9%

So no, not far far worse. Bad compared to Norway though.

I post when I want, I am like all others on here, take exception when incorrect information is being peddled as fact.

The US has Medicaid and medicare. No one slips through the net

Are you trying to be taken seriously on this thread or are you just taking the piss?

Yes its universal coverage and range of services is directly comparable to the NHS provision.

Don't believe everything you read.

Ok, so it is just about feeling better about yourselves. Understood.

Why so defensive?

I'll discuss inequality and problems wherever they occur and I have knowledge of them. Especially as ff says when someone starts a thread about it clearly asking questions intended to promote a discussion. Which this is.

Do you not want us to discuss the US? or say anything bad about it?

Let's not start down the comparison of NHS level of service to other countries. It's not a stellar universal record that's for sure.

The US has Medicaid and medicare. No one slips through the net.

Except for the poor, which seem to die more....

[img] https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2014/09/wealth.pn g" target="_blank">https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2014/09/wealth.pn g"/> &w=1484[/img]

I say plenty bad about the US, I live there for around 6 months of the year. Just take exception to incorrect facts.

Where would you like me to start? Standard of driving is awful. There, is that good?

Let's not start down the comparison of NHS level of service to other countries

you could have reasonably said the second part of that posut bit its ludicrous to compare that basic coverage [ with eligibility criteria] to the NHS and clearly more people fall through the cracks there than here. All you have to do here is turn up and that is the eligibility criteria met for any required treatment currently available for the required duration The US provision is not like this, is often time limited and we all know this.

Lets not compare them as I doubt anyone supports your view.

For every graph, there is another story..

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/may/02/uk-child-death-rate-scandal-poverty

The US has Medicaid and medicare. No one slips through the net.

Are you suggesting everyone in the US has full cover for everything? Cos they don't. From their own website:

Medicare is the federal health insurance program for people who are 65 or older, certain younger people with disabilities, and people with End-Stage Renal Disease (permanent kidney failure requiring dialysis or a transplant, sometimes called ESRD).

So someone who works two part time jobs won't get any health insurance, because part-time jobs usually don't come with it. Even the cheapest policies are very expensive, a lot more than private health cover here (because it has to cover everything). So you might pay $300/mo for basic emergency care and nothing else. Which is a huge burden for a lot of people. And even if you are insured, it has limits. If you are sick enough to go over those - you're in big debt.

Did you know for example that having a baby costs you $4-5k, because it's not usually covered?

Point out what's incorrect please LHS.

For every graph, there is another story..

Don't believe everything you read!

😉

You seem to be under the dillusion that everyone (except you) thinks the UK is perfect. It's not, but then neither is the US.

Of course they're angry - have you seen the line up for next President? They must be hopping mad.....

You have to take into account that average wages are $15,000 a year more in the US with an average tax burden of around 9% less.

If you do a compartor of how much of your tax burden in the UK goes towards NI and NHS contributions then compare it to the average spend on private healthcare coupled with the overall lower cost of living it all evens out.

I don't think the UK or US or other countries I have lived in are perfect, they are not by any means. I just take exception at incorrect facts.

LHS, instead of being ultra defensive can you provide any real world experience that has been asked. You obviously have some knowledge of life on both sides of the pond.

Well tell us the true facts then.

Which fact specifically, LHS?

You have to take into account that average wages are $15,000 a year more in the US with an average tax burden of around 9% less.

I would question the usefulness of that mean statistic.

As for it evening out - if you are talking about healthcare, insurance is not the whole story. Simply having insurance is not any guarantee of getting treatment for whatever's wrong with you. In the UK, coverage is FAR better.

If you do a compartor of how much of your tax burden in the UK goes towards NI and NHS contributions then compare it to the average spend on private healthcare coupled with the overall lower cost of living it all evens out.

At the median it might look roughly the same, but at the extremes it's very different. At the lower end it's much worse in the US than the UK (although the current Government is doing it's best to emulate US levels of poverty).

I just take exception at incorrect facts.

Junkyard, as with most people on here I am not going to engage your constant need to antagonize people.

I work in the US a lot and to me the biggest difference I see there between the US and UK in terms of inequality is how much of the inequality in the US is racially based. Basically some of the minorities in the US are underclasses, much more so than in the UK. I see this so clearly in US cities but it is very infrequently spoken about.

A good example on cost is that the average tax contributions in the UK to the NHS are somewhere around 800GBP if I recall correctly.

The average monthly individual healthcare premium in the US Is around $250, so $3000 a year.

So as a direct comparison, that means that people in the US pay around $1800 a year in healthcare costs more than in the UK.

Now take into account that average wages are $15k more, average tax burden is 9% less and that your healthcare costs are also tax deductible, you can see that it is not as crazy as the media make it out to be.

Yes, what tony said. Racial inequality in the US is a huge problem and is only getting worse.

Well said that man!

So as a direct comparison, that means that people in the US pay around $1800 a year in healthcare costs more than in the UK.

It's not a direct comparison BECAUSE THE COVERAGE IS NOT AS GOOD

Have you got me blocked or something?

Mean income is useless. That could just mean there are a lot of really rich people whilst everyone else is poorer. More information in this picture. The COMMONEST income bracket for an entire household is 15-20k.

[img] [/img]

Can you show your source for this mean income 15k more statistic please?

[quote=LHS ]Junkyard, as with most people on here I am not going to engage your constant need to antagonize people.

I am not antagonising you you said somethign factually wrong whilst lecturing us on not saying things that are factually wrong

We had already establishes that you were going to put no effort in to defending the wrong things you said

Feel free to blame me for your approach to informed fact based debate.

What excuse will you use to all the others who have said the wrong thing was wrong?

Again your broad point is not without merit but comparing that to the NHS was fatuous as were your subsequent replies.

Ok so I will tell you that the level of service in a US doctors is significantly better than a UK doctors, based on personal opinion of course.