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Hey guys
Need some advice on a possible new house purchase and down the line an extension.
Looking at a semi-detached house and plan to build a single storey extension (well, may be two storey but unlikely) not un-similar to the one neighbour has.
Couple of photos below from the garden/patio of the house we may buy.
As you’ll see (if I managed to post a photo) the neighbour has a side window on their extension that looks into our possible patio. It’s likely if we built something that window would be blocked.
In my mind we’d not get permission, is that likely? I’ve also got a little voice in my head saying they knew darn well the neighbour may also build something similar and sod them.
Has anyone had a similar predicament? Is the window there to stop such extensions?
If it’s within permitted development rules I think you are guaranteed to be able to do it are you not?
The whole purpose of that window appears to be to gawp at next door's patio. You could stick a six foot fence up there tomorrow so I can't see why an extension would be more objectionable as long as they have access to it for maintenance.
Might fall foul of the 'Right to Light' planning laws. Unfortunately, the neighbour got there first buy building the extension.
My understanding in this case you can only build if you get their express permission to 'block' their window (that may involve paying them)
I thought windows overlooking other properties like that had to be obscure glass? But there would be no reason for you not to get permission - the fact they have done what they have done makes no difference to your plans.
didnt think you were allowed to build with windows directly overlooking. Pressumably that got through planning either as a light thing, or under Permitted development?
I suspect you could do what you want under PD, and may well get it through planning, but equally, do you want to move in to a new house and start off by falling out with the neighbours?
Neighbours must be sociopaths if they've not specced frosted glass on that window anyway.
I'd agree with the permitted development comment, and be amazed if it was a "right to light" issue.
But hopefully a planning officer or architect will contribute to this thread and offer more definitive advice.
Put in an identical window in the new extension!
Right to light is a separate civil matter, not a planning one. How old do you think the extension is?
Irrespective of an extension If I bought that house I'd be firing a hedge or fence up there to regain privacy.
They may not like it but their own stupidity.
Aahh, I agree with both sides of the argument.
What other reason would they have putting a window there than to stop others/right to light?
Going to speak to planning but that'll take ages and house will likely be gone.
EDIT: Extension is 5 years old.
I thought windows overlooking other properties like that had to be obscure glass?
Yes that looks like a breach of their planning permission. We have a near neighbour that has been pulled by our planning department for that and compelled to re-instate the obscure glass.
Look for another house as our experience is that once the neighbour starts taking the piss they never stop, too much is never enough and life is too short for that sort of grief.
Looks to me like they've built right up to the boundary.
It means you might have to come into your boundary by some distance so that your new ridge line meets the 45 degree rule (if that's what it is, I forget now).
It might have been placed cynically. It does completely knacker your chance of a party wall.
That said, it might not be legit. I would investigate whether they should have put a window so blatantly overlooking your plot.
My parents neighbours had to remove a window from their extension for that reason. But. Didn't exactly do wonders for their relations with the other neighbours involved...
They've got a rear window and a skylight anyway..
Is there another window on the other side of the extension?
Bit of a cheeky chancer if you ask me... By doing that they've effectively prevented you from doing the same which seems out of order to me so I'd be supprised if you weren't allowed to block that window off.
I'm No expert on these things though.
5 years? No way will that have 'acquired' the right to light in that period. Do the new neighbours seem batshit? Surprised it got through planning with non obscured glass. As has been said, 45 degree rule is likely to be more problematic. The normal form would be to build wall to wall if they've gone all the way to the boundary.
Neighbour appears to have already blocked their window with photo frames.
My guess is that the plans said frosted / obscure glass but the builder forgot or couldn't be bothered.
A quick perusal of the local authority planning portal should answer that.
Doesn't look too problematic. Looks to be inside their boundary so you won't be building up to it anyway. You'll probably want to leave a bit of a gap to allow for maintenance. Something will be allowed under permitted development assuming it has PD rights. No technical reasons not to do it, only issue might be pissing off your new neighbours. If you like the house I wouldn't let it put me off.
On the legality of their window it should be obscure unless the sill is above 1.8m iirc. Does look quite high but maybe not quite that high.
Building normally needs to have been in place 20 years to gain right to light.
If the current occupiers built that window I think it would put me off. Wether you've the right to build or not (I think you do if it's only 5yo) it needs reasonable neighbours and possibly you being compensating (eg, you pay for the removal of their window, maybe a velux as well), or you'll end up with bad relations.
Anyone that built a window like that has to be considered of doubtful reasonableness!
check on Rightmove to see when the neighbours bought their house - and therefore if it is them that built the window or a previous owner. They might dislike the window as much as you do
Is there another window on the other side of the extension?
Patio doors on far side, window on end and sky lights so ample light.
Just back from the architect (handily next door to my office) and envisaged no issue but the need to build a fair bit back from their wall unless they are happy to share the drainage/party wall.
Mumble grumble.
I would test the reasonableness of the neighbours by chatting with them and casually mentioning how the window overlooks the patio. It's enough of a hint that their reaction will tell you everything you need to know.
check on Rightmove to see when the neighbours bought their house
Good shout!
EDIT:
I would test the reasonableness of the neighbours by chatting with them
Yeah, but then he may smell! This would all be sorted by a quick chat.
Did you speak to the neighbours? Mention potential plans if you buy the property, they may be cool about it.
Also means you get to see if they are nice neighbours and not the crazy kind that want to cut half of your hedge down.
That window looks like its supposed to be high level, to try and dodge overlooking issues. Planning would not approve a window looking directly over a neighbouring property like this and it would normally only be possible if it could be proved it didn't ie too high too look out of (ie clerestory) or obscured. Or you prove theres a 1.8m or 2.0m fence or hedge forming the boundary so any window looks at that. This window is effectively on the boundary even if its 100mm behind the actual line. Therefore that window would have no right to light/view etc if you built an extension you could effectively ignore it! Heights of extensions on boundaries is dependent on PD rights if going down that route and orientation etc if not there is ample guidance on most councils websites to determine the rules as they would apply to your case.
I would also imagine that extension has been done under PD rights and they maybe asked the original owners if they minded and they said no.... either way its a particularly thoughtless piece of design.
Not sure when that extension would have been built (looks 80/90's) but you certainly couldn't do it now.
unless they are happy to share the drainage
Looks like their gutter and valley is already discharging into 'your' gutter? Any agreements in place for that?
^ Good spot
With the larger window on 'your' property and the neighbour overlooking like they, a few well chosen 'appearances'* would quickly see the window either frosted or walled in asap.
.
.
.
.
*Poopscoop could volunteer, he seems both well appointed and happy to share all with strangers. 🫣
Oooo interesting thread.
I wonder if they have planning permission or a building warrant for that?
It would also appear their extension wall foundations go into your property? Do they have permission for that? This is a good one for your arsenal.....
If you are going to put in an offer maybe have a wee chat with them first, they may be flexible and agreeable to your proposals.
Looks like their gutter and valley is already discharging into ‘your’ gutter?
Is this not quite normal on a semi-detached house ?
Some good answers on here. If its only 5 years old, the plans for their extension should be an easy check on the relevant planning portal.
However, its been there 5 years, the window is there, and its not frosted. So arguments for what it coulda/shoulda been is largely academic, and just screams (high risk of) falling out with the neighbours if you bought it. Its got the makings of one of those Daily Mail stories where neighbours have spent 15 years and all their savings arguing over 3mm land (example).
If there enough dubiety and concern at this stage. Move on and look for something more 'cut and dried'?
Looks like a good place to put a small trampoline or a basketball hoop.
Give it six months and they’ll agree to you building your extension.
You could speak to a planning consultant and gauge their opinion. They would give you a quick answer.
Daft place to put a window but they can have absolutely no reasonable objections to you building a mirror extension. That doesn’t mean they won’t though…
Shame the current owners didn’t elect to build the same extension with a party wall agreement at the same time. Would have have been a relatively cost effective move and negated this situation.
If its only 5 years old, the plans for their extension should be an easy check on the relevant planning portal.
This.
Is it not possible you can find another house this just seems like you risk falling out with your neighbours.
Is it not possible you can find another house this just seems like you risk falling out with your neighbours.
Been looking for a while, want to keep to walking distance of kids primary which limits us just a wee bit. That and our area is silly price wise. And we're fussy. Well, i'm not, i just want a garage for fettling.
You'll be able to build some kind of extension, but a two storey is unlikely. You can probably extend the dormer to almost full width if you want more space upstairs. Friend did that to a very similar looking house and it made a big difference. Looks.like the garden has space for more sheds or a home office too.
Big up the dormer. You might get better value out of it.
Our kitchen extension was built about 2ft away from the boundary. Apparently the neighbours at the time both fell out over their respective planned extensions... and the neighbour next door got in there first (not our current neighbours, they're great).
So I'd say, exercise a bit of caution TBH. You'll be ghosting them in the street quicker than Gozer if you're not careful.
If you're really lucky you could offer a sackful of cash to remove the window and get a party wall agreement. All the best with that one.
generally, as planning permission goes you can't extend out in front of the 45degree line from the window of a habitable room. That is to day, if they have a window facing out backwards, and it's 2m from your extension wall, you can't go out more than 2m. Regardless of their window, they're in breach of that rule.
No idea how that would be interpreted for the extension above, which is bizarre, but if they haven't broken any rules in building it, I think you're stuffed. Additionally, even if they have broken rules, you'll probably be unable to have that resolved prior to buying the property (this stuff drags on) - so I'd probably be looking elsewhere.
pull the planning permission from the planning portal and pop the plans on here, I recon it might all have been done without planning, in which case I'd stay well clear.
With all that said, the development may have been legal under permitted development rights. I can't see anything specifically in there that stops them..
You’ll probably want to leave a bit of a gap to allow for maintenance.
We have the same thing with our neighbour (no windows though). 20 odd years ago I extended up to the boundary minus about 2" to allow space for the gutter to still be on our side. 2 years ago they did an identical extension next to it. There is a next to useless 3-4" gap between the two walls which is of no use to anyone - possibly a bit more sound insulation than a shared wall, but not much.
I would test the reasonableness of the neighbours by chatting with them
Yeah, but then he may smell! This would all be sorted by a quick chat.
First off you need to check the planning docs and see any specific conditions.
They may well have had an agreement with the current or previous owner...
Lots of speculation, the window may have been frosted and replaced or the builders might have just put one in long enough to take a photo to satisfy building regs then removed it (often happens with fire doors)...
EITHER WAY .... you can check out the height (looks well under 1.8m) and blah blah but everything else aside surely you are better talking to them NOW than after you spent money on a survey or put in an offer to buy the place or whatever.
If they got arsey I'd just build the highest permissable deck then take up naked outdoor snooker.
AndyKirk I think will know better but i think technically there should be two downpipes connected to a shared surface water drainage via *i think* connection chambers to allow isolation at each property.
As someone else mentioned the gutter and valley going into your gutter doesn't seem right at all when it could have fed out into their garden easily. It looks like they have taken the owner at the time for a ride on this along with the window issue.
How big is the gap between the fence and their wall? Your extension would have to match that gap I expect, then they would have to sort out their valley and gutter as you would have a mirror pitch yourself with your valley and gutter correctly draining out past the extension to a soak away in your garden.
Politely, sod their window
Please buy it. We’ve not had an epic neighbourly dispute thread for ages. This could be a 50 pager!
are there any alotments nearby?
OP, is the property in a conservation area?
Looking at the window in the extension I don’t think I’d be too keen on having them as neighbours… too high a risk of conflict in days / months / years to come
Walk away and find another to buy
If they got arsey I’d just build the highest permissable deck then take up naked outdoor snooker.
That's a whopping 30cm height unfortunately. Maybe naked snooker on stilts?
https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permission/common-projects/decking/planning-permission
Oh and the obscure glass rule generally applies to upper storey windows on side elevations, not ground floor.
That’s a whopping 30cm height unfortunately. Maybe naked snooker on stilts?
naked gym TRX might be a good substitute.
Looking at the window in the extension I don’t think I’d be too keen on having them as neighbours… too high a risk of conflict in days / months / years to come
Walk away and find another to buy
This 100%.
Assuming they are the people who built the extension - this doesn't pass the dick/idiot test. Whether they are either idiots or dicks, they are clearly hugely inconsiderate. Why on earth would somebody think it's acceptable to put a window there?!?!
Even without an extension, first thing you would be doing is either asking them to remove/obscure it, or putting up a fence/hedge directly in front of it with the express purpose of blocking it. This is going to put you in conflict with them from Day 1. In their eyes, you will be unreasonable one..... after all: if they understood why the window was problematic, they wouldn't have put it there in the first place.
I'm a bit triggered by this as I have a neighbor who's hobby is trying (and usually succeeding) in causing conflict between herself and her various neighbors. She has mental health issues - but she's also an extremely nasty and vindictive person. The sorts of things she's done would blow your mind. This sort of red-flag would have me running for the hills.
I used to own a house with this exact set up, with the neighbour having newish brickwalled conservatory with a window just like that. It was built about 100mm back from the boundary. Our garden was about 50cm above theirs. It was a pisstake and built when our house was rented so presumably they got away with it.
The problem was if I wanted to build something the same there would be an inaccessible gap between the buildings, and I would have to modify the foundation for their conservatory. But because it was slightly stepped in on their side there was no possibility of extending the party wall and making a tidy looking thing. So really the only feasible thing would be to step in a lot more on my side which would render any extension less useful. I discounted it before I bought the house.
The neighbours were generally pretty cool but the conservatory was very definitely their most precious room. To be fair it was a really smart thing with wood burner, music set up etc. Once I got to know them I'm pretty sure if we interfered with that it would have been a declaration of war.
If the house is only good to you with an extension on boundary I'd be careful. Life is too short to fight with your neighbours and that has conflict written all over it. Either that or buy it, have the conversation and then decide where to plant you leylandii and bamboo hedge.
What you could do if you buy, is build your extension over the boundary to meet next door, and put the dividing wall in line with the boundary, so next door get a slightly larger room, once they knock down the existing wall. This would also tidy up the guttering.
Obviously you would need to agree this first which may be difficult before you buy it.
Walk swiftly away.
If the house is only good to you with an extension on boundary I’d be careful. Life is too short to fight with your neighbours
This is good advice. If you're still keen, an attitude test disguised as a friendly chat is a worthwhile exercise. I'd probably mention the need for a higher fence at that point for privacy - if they start munching their gums at that, you know what you're in for.
I'd go and knock on and discuss the plans with them. Sound them out.
You could offer to have your builder install a larger skylight as compensation.
A chat with the potential new neighbours before purchasing would seem like a great plan.
I’d probably err on the side of being totally up front- say that you’re considering buying next door, and are planning on putting in a very similar extension to theirs, which would mean they lose the side window. You’d rather run this by them now than later. What do they think of this? Their reaction to that should be pretty clear - both what they say and how they react.
Unlike with “real” neighbours don’t worry about the conversation turning sour, as if it does then that tells you that you’re in the process of dodging a bullet. On the other hand if they understand and have no issue (e.g. “yep, the previous owners put that on and we always thought it a bit weird”) then you’re onto a winner.
Buy it, move in, plant 50 metres of Leylandii then sit out the back smoking skunk every evening
The full back catalogue of Phil Collins is on Spotify, to round out @binners plan.
If I'm honest, I'd just discount the house. We have some neighbours like batfink's. My experience is, passive aggressive tactics, like putting that window in purely for the purpose of blocking anything you wanted to do, are right up there for them. I agree its a bit of a red flag.
I'm not really sure how much point there is in a friendly chat.
Most folk don't like being doorstepped at the best of times, even less so by a stranger who may become their neighbour and wants to **** up their extension and wants to know, on the spot, how they'd feel about that. It's kind of an aggressive thing to do, so even if they don't outright tell you beat it there's a fair chance it won't make the impression you want.
Cheers all for the replies, love this place.
Our council planning portal has everything on from 1980 onwards and no note of this wee addition to be seen. I suspect the seller may be wrong on the construction year.
I'm popping over tonight to have a chat with the neighbour to asses their dickish levels. May even bring some pre-emptive frozen sausages if they transpire to be prize throbers.
I’m popping over tonight to have a chat with the neighbour to asses their dickish levels.
I honestly can't see the downside. Anything they do with you giving them a heads-up is only going to turn acrimonious later or they might turn out to be perfectly reasonable. I'd certainly be trying to find out before spending further time and money.
Perhaps not particularly relevant to the larger conversation regarding whether moving there would be a good move or not/neighbour disputes/planning etc, but regarding the location of that window specifically...
It looks quite high up the wall. My sister has a similar window in their living room, which overlooks the side of their garden that wraps round the house. It lets light in, but you really can't see much out of it, as it's too high.
To use it as a lookout to keep an eye on the neighbours, they'd probably have to stand on a step for it to work.
It's probably just a window to help let in light & when viewed from their side, probably doesn't actually provide a clear sight-line onto that patio.
It’s probably just a window to help let in light & when viewed from their side
That would seem more likely than
putting that window in purely for the purpose of blocking anything you wanted to do
If you're lucky they'll be perfectly reasonable and knew from the outset that putting a window there was risky, and that if someone in the future had the same idea as them then they'd have to suck it up.
However, they may be unreasonable and see it as their entitlement as they got there first, and you'll be stuck next to them forever.
I'd chat to them now before doing anything more.
Even if the window falls foul of planning, is that a road you really want to go down with neighbours that will object to your extension because of a window that probably lets in marginal light now?