[Closed] House build -

1. Sounds like you may have a chance of getting it under that recent policy and therefore technically avoid 'planning permission'.
2. If it's two storey it wouldn't count as PD. If it's single storey it might but you would have to do it later or you would breach the part of the policy that you quote (i.e. not exceeding the existing building envelope). If you have to get planning for (1) then they may restrict the PDR under condition.
3. It can be done with lots of time and effort and surveys etc but think about whether you want your house/workshop to flood and how you might mitigate the impact on yourselves.
4. Depends on whether you are going for planning or the redundant agricultural conversion route...talk to the LPA. If you have to get planning permission you might well end up doing it all under the same app.

My understanding of 'external dimensions' means the building envelope, so you wouldn't be allowed to infill the L shape.

I think the best thing to do first would be to talk to a local architect who knows local policy inside out, or a local experienced planning consultant.

[i]I think the best thing to do first would be to talk to a local architect who knows local policy inside out, or a local experienced planning consultant. [/i]

This, plus also the Council planning dept as others may have tried to do the same for the building you're looking at.

4 days to the auction so a bit late now. We had previously dismissed it due to the uplift but we went to visit and it is a nice site so did a bit more digging.

Site history shows refusal for offices under planning, same as the other site down the road but they eventually got that through.

1 & 2: That is what I was worried about, it would be a bit cramped without extending. I am wondering if we could get PD rights and then apply to extend before we finish the build. If we ended up paying an uplift based on that planning we could offset costs up to that point (ie most of the build) as they were needed to get to that stage. Or worst case we end up having to go full planning and we'd be looking at handing over £100k to the previous owners.

Worst case if we cannot get planning I would convert it to offices, use the land for my sheep and run my business from there and renting out some of the stone barn offices.

Flood wise it's a worry. I've got some ideas on what i would do.

How is the uplift clause worded? I've seen a few in auction legal packs and they have always given a more detailed description of when the fee would kick in, or more precisely under what conditions it wouldn't be deemed applicable. If yours is a bit vague you might have a get out but I certainly wouldn't bet on it without proper legal help.

There's a lot of ifs in there to worry to me but it is a great opportunity so maybe worth taking a chance. Can you put a reasonable value on the property as is, maybe based on renting it out for horses? If you can get it for that figure or below then everything else is a bonus.

Final word, I've been to few property auctions recently and any potential development sites have gone for way over guide with fierce bidding so don't get your hopes up.

I can only answer point 2, but you can't include any extensions in the prior approval applications. If you are successful in gaining prior approval under class Q then you would have no permitted development rights to extend and would have to apply for planning permission, see paragraph (a) under most classes under Part 1 of the GPDO. Most (but not all) councils are generally against extensions to barn conversions as they aim to retain their agricultural character, you'd be best speaking to them or having a read of any relevant policies in their local plan.

Just renovated a school. As it was a change of use to residential all pd was subsequently revoked. However this local council have been a bunch of ****s from start!

Not (directly) related to your Q, but I'd query buying floodplain land for sheep. At least, if that's the only land you have for them and can't move them anywhere when the river comes over.

Is any of the land you're looking at above the likely max river level, cos otherwise you might be better looking elsewhere. Also, 3 acres? How good is the grazing and how many sheep? The land will need resting so you'll need something like three times the area that they'll actually use at any one time.

Apologies if you've already thought of this (and sorry I have nothing helpful in answer to your actual question!)....

Just got a PD through here (barn to resi under class Q). I agree with Morpho1 - you must stay within the building envelope and you would not subsequently have the same PD rights a normal house has.

You may already know all this but also note the points in PD around structure - essentially you are applying to change the use of a building (for which certain changes, like doors, windows, roofing material etc are accepted as "reasonably necessary" for the building to become a house), but not to change it substantially or rebuild it. It's obviously a grey area but the government did tighten it in March.

If you haven't seen it already, Martin Goodall's planning blog is very good IMHO. He's written on PD a number of times since the changes in 2014.

We have abut 10 acres in total for sheep that we rent. We just want more than the 0.7 acres we have here at our rental place.

Even without the extension it is still a possible to have a nice house, I will pop back this weekend and measure. Would be single storey with 2 double beds. Watching GD last night with the old Forge building with the big curved extension in an AONB...how the hell do these people get planning?

Pinched these from the brochure, will get my own tomorrow:

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I understand we completely lose any PD rights following the conversion. Including the ability to build any new agricultural barns so anything else will need planning.

I am going to look through the planning history again as there is some history, will check out Martin Goodalls blog too, cheers.

We've been going to the property auctions for the last year. Some farm land is going way over, some stuff is struggling to make guide and the council round here is a complete PITA.

I prefer an 11 acre plot of land which has a 36m modern (1999 built) barn. It's a south facing hill side so I would build into the hill but it's AONB so planning would be a pain. It seems possible in other areas but not this one...

just spotted this: http://wam.n-somerset.gov.uk/MULTIWAM/showCaseFile.do?action=show&appType=Planning&appNumber=15/P/2429/CUPA

Funnily enough we have been looking at the field adjacent to this which has a right of way over this land as they share a bridge over the river. The sale has been held up due to probate and the buildings are in a dilapidated state so it would be a full planning application.

The barn in the this PD application is a steel portal frame with sheet metal roof and no sides - ie not really an old agricultural barn but a fully viable one that last time I was up on the side was full of stacks of large round hay bales.

Friends got agri-resi permission on Norfolk recently. Barn is a modern I beam steel thing clad in cement fibre sheeting. They're basically building a house inside the steel frame and recladding the barn in a similar material - the existing frame then sits between their insulation layer and rainscreen. Results in huge window reveals I think.

It's a bit of a joke really - council turned them down for an attractive modern barn style rebuild but have had to allow them to proceed with something that has had to be based on an unattractive building with zero architectural merit.

Anyway, this also meant that they were height restricted. They're dropping the floor inside to get a mezzanine level. Could you add more space that way? I realise dropping the floor might not be the best idea on a flood plain!

Going back to measure up and see how wet the field is after a couple of days of bad rain.

Was up till the early hours trying to decipher legal writings for the uplift, this is the main section that explains the trigger:

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The trigger seems to be when the property is either used or sold/disposed of so we may not have to pay any uplift until later, not as soon as planning anyway so it would be possible to get a mortgage to pay the uplift as the house would be built. It does clearly state outline or detail permission though. I guess "used" means when you start to build? Or just after so you have the build costs but value of a house on land is normally higher than the vlaue of the land with planning and the build cost as you have the return on investment so to speak, otherwise it would make no sense for people to buy land and build on it for profit.

I also noticed it clearly states C3 so that is normal residential. So we could, if all else fails, turn it into a holiday let. I can't imagine build costs will be particularly high as as it is a blank canvas.

I also found some more local flood surveys and found NO history of actual flooding of that site in any records and it is actually protected by the local flood defences. I would say half of the villages and towns around this area are also in similar flood zones. The chance of flooding is given as 1 in 100, which could obviously mean it is due a flood, but the expectation is that due to the flood defences and the sluice nearby the flooding would be mild and quick and subside quickly too so you have to make provision for the building to withstand such minor flooding and be put back into use quickly.

I had thought about upper levels but I can't see it being possible. If anything I want to raise the internal floor up another 20-30cm and fit underfloor heating, we have plenty of room for a ground source heat pump and I want some heat recovery ventilation which I assume can put the heat back into the heat pump.

The rusty metal section covers a concrete block wall, I would insulate behind this and refit the metal as I quite like it. In fact the only thing we would change would be to fit some bi-fold glass doors to the most of the open section, possible some stone on the left where the kitchen will be, and on the other side there is a double door sized opening into the base of the L which would be a bedroom so we would hide a bedroom window behind some fake barn doors for privacy onto the road and so it still looks like a barn. It's a pretty setting and no desire to ruin it.

My workshop would possibly have a green rood on top as this would reduce the water run off and help disguise it and I'd try and get planning for some car port extensions to the side of the workshop so we can keep the cars and trailers more hidden and they would be deep enough to keep enough hay for our needs as well and then double up as lambing shelters for a couple of weeks a year. Dual use seems to make a lot more sense. We currently erect a temporary shelter during lambing and then take it down.

I also found that next door, a house with 4 bedrooms, a 1 bed annexe, 3 acres of paddocks, gardens and large stables sold just over a year ago for £375k. Round where we are now that would be £600-750k It needed modernisation (70's kitchen with Aga, storage heaters etc) but was in good condition with new rendering all round so maybe the agents ball park £250-300k figure with planning was a bit high.

A 2 bed single story house would in my eyes be worth no more than £300k, maybe as low as £275 so that would put the value of the land with planning in the region of £200k so looking at £50-60k payable as uplift. Still a kick in the balls and would pay for a nice fully kitted out work unit but the land would be a lot more expensive with planning so it would still work out cheaper.

I think you're overvaluing the land.

Land value is generally taken as value of completed house less cost of build with an allowance for developers profit. 75k to turn a barn into even a 2 bedroom house seems far too low to me.

What services has it got? Will the water or electricity need upgrading? Where's the nearest point to join the networks? Those costs alone can be tens of thousands if it's any distance.

It has mains water and electricity with quite a modern CU and meter (but will replace those). Sewerage will be a septic tank type solution depending on what is required in that location. Just checked the phone and the house next door can get BT infinity and I get 4G there too.

Round where we are now a plot less than 0.4 acres with planning for a 3/4 bed house will go for £250k. This location is somewhere I am not so familiar with housing wise but spend a lot of time walking on the hills that overlook the plot. I do think the initial expectations might be a bit high, maybe allow £200k as the maximum as the land is of limited value. I did check today and you cannot see the main barn from the main AONB vantage point, just the old metal barn I will be replacing.

Made a floor plan, definitely not high enough for an upstairs but I can probably still put some of the plant (water tank, network, renewables control stuff etc) in the roof, keeping the main open plan living room full height to make the most of the new beams.

1sq = 1x1m, green are current walk in openings, blue are current "windows"

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"used sold or otherwise disposed of for value"

IANAE, so something that you need to check with someone who actually knows what they're talking about 🙂

Well the auction was last night and....

We thought screw it and bid up to our maximum we wanted to spend that was based on the risk and what we felt we could still make money on if we only got B1 business use (as the identical barn a hundred yards away has recently got) and not even the residential which I think we can get. Final price was bang on our max after a slight bidding war and the other guy bailed.

Now own this:

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and this:

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and 3 acres of the green stuff:

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For less than the profit I made selling my 1 bedroom flat in town.