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In basic terms, I've just hit a major snag with selling my house.
2012 - Previous owner built garage on farmers land
Farmer agreed to gift land, on the basis that house owner paid for and commissioned whatever survey and paperwork was required to transfer ownership. This was never done.
2015 - We come along and buy said house. Our solicitor sends us deeds which show a garage and house within a red boundary line and asks us to confirm it's ok. Looks ok to us so we proceed.
2021 - We sell house STC. Turns out current boundary on land registry shows our garage is 2/3s over the line. Queue much panicking. Fortunately, we get on really well with the son of the farmer (farmer snr now passed away) and he very kindly agrees to gift us the land, as long as we deal with and pay for the legal bits.
I guess the two things that irk me are:
1 - The previous owners knew about this and never told us.
2 - Our solicitor from when we bought this house says it's our fault, because the plan didn't match what was on the ground.
I just wonder if anyone has ever had something similar and what your experience was? Do we need to go out with a big measuring tape and start checking the boundary and location of garages and outbuildings for all future purchases? It seems pretty likely the delay this is going to cause will cost us the sale of our house, so I may not be looking at this in the most objective way.
I'm pretty sceptical about solicitors and surveyors when it comes to houses. You do have to do your own research and read all the documents rather than take everything on spec. It is a pain, especially when you are paying a large sum of money to professionals to do this for you. I'd say you should be looking at the plans and seeing how it compares to what is on the ground.
If the farmer is agreeable it shouldn't be too tricky. An ID1 and TP1 form and a trip to the land registry office. Should be done in an hour.
We've had one house we tried to buy where registry plan obviously didn't match what was on the ground - in that case it was mentioned to solicitor, seller remembered they moved fence out but had forgotten to claim under adverse possession, solicitor took to mortgage company who changed valuation, delays whilst seller claimed land, indemnities asked for in case there was ever counter claim, ended up with the chain breaking up. Wish I'd kept my mouth shut as the assumption was that it was unregistered land left over from the original builder's cabin/storage, and being surrounded on 4 sides by walls (with only one side able to access, it being part of their garden for 20+ years) it was sort of a done deal.
On this current house we did go out and measure up based on past experience, due to an unusual boundary line and some obvious adjustments to boundary walls over the years. It is certainly within 12" of where it should be, but even if I had found it to be out I'd not have told the solicitor.
Our solicitor from when we bought this house says it’s our fault, because the plan didn’t match what was on the ground.
Unless the solicitor actually visits the property (which they don't in general) how would they know what's there? They've probably got a point.
I'd def be peeved at the previous sellers though as you paid for something wasn't actually theirs to sell.
Luckily the farmer didn't hold you to ransom!!
Yeah, I think I'll be paying much closer attention to the plans in future.
If the farmer is agreeable it shouldn’t be too tricky. An ID1 and TP1 form and a trip to the land registry office. Should be done in an hour.
We've been told that to resolve, we have to commission a survey to establish difference between legal and actual(£800+vat), pay for additional conveyancing (£500+vat) and then whatever the landowners solicitor will charge! We're in Scotland, not sure if that makes a difference.
Doesn't a dispute require disagreement between two parties? In this case you and the farmer seem to agree which makes it an admin issue at worst!
Yeah, maybe the wrong wording. I guess an admin issue, unfortunately an expensive one that may cost us the sale of the house.
We’ve been told that to resolve, we have to commission a survey to establish difference between legal and actual(£800+vat), pay for additional conveyancing (£500+vat) and then whatever the landowners solicitor will charge!
Not sure why you'd need a survey. At least in E&W it's fine to draw up a boundary agreement between the parties as to exactly where the boundary is, and then apply to LR to register the new boundary based on that agreement.
If you wanted it fixed with mathematical certainty then a survey is the way to go, but if all you're doing is altering the boundary to make the garage within the curtilage of your land, that should be reasonable straightforward.
IAALBNACOANASOE*
(I am a lawyer but not a conveyancer and not a Scottish one either)
Sounds to me like you just need to suck it up and deal with it. You can't change what has gone before. The fact that the farmer is happy means this should be quite straightforward.
We’ve been told that to resolve, we have to commission a survey to establish difference between legal and actual(£800+vat), pay for additional conveyancing (£500+vat) and then whatever the landowners solicitor will charge!
As Jakester says, if you are both in agreement then no need for a survey. Download the site plan from the land registry you draw the new red line where it is supposed to be. Not sure about the rules in Scotland and it is more complicated if the properties are mortgaged but I did it when I bought a garage from a local block. Luckily the seller was perfectly happy not to use a solicitor, as was I, and I filled out the forms, he signed his bit, land registry updated the records. All very easy and cost £30 or so. I did go to a conveyancing solicitor first as that seemed the right thing and they wanted £850.
This is the form: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/registered-titles-part-transfer-tp1
Solicitors are useless, sadly you have to do most of the work yourself and they'll cover themselves against any fault.
Although far from making the sale of your house harder, I'd have thought showing how 'on side' the neighbor is would be a positive.
At the end of the day, if you don't do it for this sale you'll have to do it eventually if you ever want to sell - bite the bullet.
If only your neighbour were a Belgian farmer he'd just move it.
Yup, always check the land registry plans against what you think you are buying because solicitors don't visit the property to check themselves. For the price it costs its worth checking the neighbouring registered plans too - according to the land registry my dad's old garden partly belonged to both him & his neighbour..
Check the plan on scotlis https://scotlis.ros.gov.uk/
and then book an appointment with registers of Scotland to see what they suggest.
We’ve been told that to resolve
By whom?
Don't want to be mean but:
Do we need to go out with a big measuring tape and start checking the boundary and location of garages and outbuildings for all future purchases?
Yep. It's up to you to check the boundaries, check the plans, check what you think you're buying is actually what it says on the tin.
You pay for all these surveys - they give you the details. It's up to YOU to check them.
Kind of a "what am I actually buying 101" really.
(You asked about future purchases, so if anything you current experience should show you how important it is to do so, no?)
By whom?
By our solicitor.
At the end of the day, if you don’t do it for this sale you’ll have to do it eventually if you ever want to sell – bite the bullet.
100% I will do whatever is required to get it sorted. I'm very thankful that our farmer is such a decent guy.
Yep. It’s up to you to check the boundaries, check the plans, check what you think you’re buying is actually what it says on the tin.
You pay for all these surveys – they give you the details. It’s up to YOU to check them.
Kind of a “what am I actually buying 101” really.
(You asked about future purchases, so if anything you current experience should show you how important it is to do so, no?)
Well, it's pretty clear to me now that I can't rely on the solicitors. However, one of the key things your purchasing solicitor is responsible for is advising you of any issues with land ownership and boundary. For instance, when I sold my last house, I as the owner was asked to confirm that our garden was fully within the boundary of ownership.
Either way, it doesn't matter much. A life lesson for future.
Although far from making the sale of your house harder, I’d have thought showing how ‘on side’ the neighbor is would be a positive.
Absolutely. It's just that we have already sold the house and the delay may mean the buyers have to pull out.
Not sure why you’d need a survey. At least in E&W it’s fine to draw up a boundary agreement between the parties as to exactly where the boundary is, and then apply to LR to register the new boundary based on that agreement.
If you wanted it fixed with mathematical certainty then a survey is the way to go, but if all you’re doing is altering the boundary to make the garage within the curtilage of your land, that should be reasonable straightforward.
I was just going on the advice I was given. I'll look into this.
Thanks all!
Yep, exact same thing with an eb bloc garage when I sold my house int he UK. Solicitor when I bought was the same one that was acting for the seller and failed to sign over the deed for the garage at the same time as the deed for the house, despite there being a clause to say that the garage can only be sold to the owner of the house and with the house.
Cue my time to sell and a massive rush round to get the deeds signed over. Me doing it, ME. It cost me 5k as a bribe to the previous owner to get him to sign over the ****ing deeds because his wife was putting him under pressure to "obtain value" from the mistake. I should have sued the solicitor. In the end I was just glad to get the house sold.
TL;DR: Solicitors are useless and the house purchase process in the UK is a nightmare.
Solicitors are useless and the house purchase process in the UK is a nightmare.
Yes & no, solicitors provide you with a copy of title deeds - it's down to you to check what you are buying/were offered matches those deeds. I know when I next move I'll be downloading the deeds to check before I even engage solicitors.
Yep. I do that even when browsing for property. It's £4 to download direct from the land registry. Take the plan when looking at the property and at least eyeball the boundaries
Solicitors are useless and the house purchase process in the UK is a nightmare.
Yes & no, solicitors provide you with a copy of title deeds – it’s down to you to check what you are buying/were offered matches those deeds. I know when I next move I’ll be downloading the deeds to check before I even engage solicitors.
They/we also carry compulsory professional indemnity insurance to pay out in the event of any mistakes, which you won't get if you do it yourself.
They/we also carry compulsory professional indemnity insurance to pay out in the event of any mistakes
Usually pretty well caveated so they don't actually payout, though. I doubt the op will have a claim, for example
Makes me laugh when people slag off solicitors/estate agents/car sales etc etc. It always seems to be a case of zero trust and I can do better. But then you get examples like this which show that its probably not a straightforward job and as with everything in life, you get good and bad. You get what you pay for.
My wife is a conveyancing solicitor for the last 25yrs. The company she works for has a really bad reputation with all the local estate agents. They are run off their feet with repeat customers and in general are really really expensive because they dont have to go shopping about for new business. Sounds like a nightmare doesnt it.
Well the reason they have a bad reputation with local estate agents is they go through everything with a fine tooth comb. They will not bend for anyone and will not process anything unless everything is perfect. They take a lot longer than other solicitors and pride themselves on their customers getting 100% service, even if it is expensive and takes longer. Basically they do the job properly and charge appropriately. But joe public want quick, easy and cheap.
I am just in the middle of purchasing a new house. You should have seen the face on the housebuilder when we told them we wouldnt be using their suggested solicitor as we get it for free. I believe they have had a pile of issues to resolve with regards to my purchase and unless it is 100% it will just keep getting sent back to them.
...Solicitor when I bought was the same one that was acting for the seller and failed to...
IANACS, but surely in most cases acting for the buyer and seller is a conflict of interest...?
Unless the solicitor actually visits the property (which they don’t in general)
as maybe, but that's their problem, not yours. They're taking responsibility for it (in my view)
when we bought a couple of years ago, the solicitor submitted all the paper work and the redline boundary was for a house a few doors up. Always had been, just an error back in the 1930s, but my OH noticed and got them to sort it. TBF to the solicitor they admitted they should've picked it up and they didnt charge us for sorting it out and going through the process again.
FWIW you can access the land registry parcel data for free, if it would help to see what Land Registry consider to be "the boundary".
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/inspire-index-polygons-spatial-data
though you would need to be GIS capable.
Drop me an email and a site address/google maps location if you want me to email back a screenshot (as ive always got GIS open)
nickjb
Usually pretty well caveated so they don’t actually payout, though.
Sorry, but I can safely say with experience across multiple different firms and insurers that this is complete bollocks. If you have a valid claim, then the insurance will respond. That's what it's there for.
But then you get examples like this which show that its probably not a straightforward job and as with everything in life, you get good and bad. You get what you pay for.
Exactly. Pay peanuts, get monkeys (or, rather unqualified poorly-supervised conveyancers).
IANACS, but surely in most cases acting for the buyer and seller is a conflict of interest…?
It's permitted where the clients have a common interest and have given their informed consent:
https://www.sra.org.uk/solicitors/standards-regulations/code-conduct-solicitors/#rule-6
MY MIL had almost exactly this happen with a previous house purchase albeit with a secondary driveway. The second driveway dated back to the 90's and had a dropped curve but no one to find any paperwork to clearly say it was part of her property.
We tried for 18 months to officially rectify the fact that the driveway did not fully appear on the plans she was asked to confirm were correct by the Sols but to no avail.
In the end she ended up selling the house with complete transparency re the driveway and her buyers were happy to take the risk (as minimal as it was).
IANAL but could you not get something in writing from the farmers son to give to the buyers and then cover the costs of registering that parcel of land post completion? I suspect it will always be added as an additional title to your main title rather than the initial title be amended.