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I've got a hospital appointment coming up soon. (Hydrocele Testis, since you ask, although if you do a Google images search, you'll wish you hadn't)
We've got a new manager at work and I saw him for the first time yesterday. I mentioned I would need to book a day off work soon for a hospital appointment.
One of the directors was there at the time and he said if it was a short visit, we could adjust my shift to fit it in, if it was an all day visit, which it is with a full anesthetic, I would need to book it as holiday.
I didn't say anything at the time, but that didn't sound right to me.
Do pre-arranged hospital appointments count as sick days, or do I have to use up one of my holiday days ?
Pre-arranged means you have plenty of warning, you're not sick you have an appointment and should make arrangements yourself. Unpaid leave, shift exchange or annual leave..
Agreed.
When I have been in staff positions in the past, hopspital appointments have always been booked as sick leave.
there is probably some expectation that doctors/dentist/opticians appointments should be done in your own time, as far as possible.
If they make you take leave, I would have a day off sick some time when the weather is good to claw the day back.
Unpaid leave sounds fair enough. I just don't want to use up a day of my paid leave if I don't have to.
Is that the law or are you just guessing/using common sense ?
What? Really? That sounds like bollocks. (no pun intended MTG... 🙂 )
So what you appear to be classing as sick is either an emergency or contagious disease.
What if I needed to start my chemo - do I have to take holidays?
Sorry, but genuinley surprised at the agreement this should be a holiday.
Kev
This'll be interesting.
Many people confuse leave, as in "leave of absence", with holiday, as in putting your feet up . Sometimes you have to use your leave of absence for non pleasurable stuff.
to clarify, I was referring the earler Drac and njee posts
Is that the law or are you just guessing/using common sense ?
There is no law to give you the time off for hospital appointments.
If they make you take leave, I would have a day off sick some time when the weather is good to claw the day back.
Incredible. You're paid to work not go to hospital, unless you work at a hospital. 😀
Strictly speaking it should be holiday or unpaid leave but for my team I'm pretty flexible (I need them to be able to work extended hours or weekends from time-to-time so happy for them to take time off for appointments - although for a full day one they'd have to take that as sick if didn't want to take as holiday)
it's not the law; i've worked in places where there's actually been specific provision for hospital appointments (iirc it was up to 4 hours paid, then beyond that but not more than 1 working day you made your time up during that pay period, then anything after that was sick leave).
Good point from big_scot_nanny, I hadn't thought of that.
Hopefully this will be just one day knocked out, then back to more or less normal the next day.
What would happen then if it was some long course of treatment that went on longer than my 28 days paid leave ?
Does it say anything in your contract?
Mine says that time doesn't have to be made up and you don't have to take it as unpaid leave or from your holiday. We do expect people to try to arrange appointments either early or late so that they can still work if appropriate.
What would happen then if it was some long course of treatment that went on longer than my 28 days paid leave ?
That's not a one off appointment though is it the same as Chemo for that matter. I take it your still fit enough to work or you'd be off anyway.
As I said they are not obliged to give the day off but they can use discretion and grant you one or change shifts.
eye appointments are during works time - work pays for them
if its a couple hour appointment nothing is said you just tell them where your headed
anything that takes a day we book a day off
Fair enough, I shouldn't have confused the issue with hypothetical scenarios.
I'm assuming I'm going to be OK to work the next day, although I'm guessing I won't be cycling in until it's healed a bit more. Maybe it will be more than one day off.
We've had a few mechanics leave since a recent TUPE, so I'm in a fairly strong bargaining position.
All the remaining mechanics get on well and have always cooperated with each other to cover shifts.
I don't think it will be a problem, I just wondered what the legal situation is if they insist I take it as paid leave.
If you can get a copy of your contract, have a look, there maybe something in there. Found this on our intranet for one of our subsidaries
"Employees should arrange their appointments outside normal working hours whenever possible. For employees working part-time or on a rota basis, appointments should be arranged for days when they are not working. For full-time employees, when appointments cannot be made in an evening or on Saturday, then they should be made at the beginning or end of the working day. Providing that the employee notifies his/her line manager in advance, time off for these appointments will be treated as paid time off. In the event that an employee needs to attend a series of appointments, the pay arrangements will be considered on a case by case basis, in consultation with Human Resources."
If you're not fit to work the next day, you may be a tad tender, then yes that would class as a sick day.
You're question was fair the "That's bollocks' crowd who clearly have no idea of employment law were a mile off.
Incredible. You're paid to work not go to hospital, unless you work at a hospital
Not incredible. I consider employment to be give and take, as in, I don't mind doing extra to get the job done as long as it works the other way at times. If the employer is unreasonable, then I am unreasonable in response. By the logic in the above statement, if a person was admitted to hospital for a period of time you would extect them to use holidays?? That's incedible.
+1 FuzzyWuzzy here, we have a brilliant team and there's lots of give and take to make things work out for all parties.
But when I was employed it varied from a nod and a wink, because we did well over the required hours on a regular basis, through to insistence on anything pre planned being taken as 'paid leave'.
Does seem counter intuitive to the discussion on a thread last year re being ill on holiday, and being entitled to take the holiday time again as it was a right to have the full allotted holiday.
Off to cross check with our trade association to check what's in our current contracts on this one.
Just ask your surgeon for a sick note on your discharge papers, that'll normally cover the day if the op + appropriate recovery time.
By the logic in the above statement, if a person was admitted to hospital for a period of time you would extect them to use holidays??
No that's not what I said at all. You'd be unfit for work if hospitalised for an extent of time, a day appointment isn't that. Taking a day sick as you had a couple of hours appointment at the hospital and your employer made you take unpaid is ridiculous. They don't have to pay for day appointments, some employers will allow the flexi-time as as demonstrated above, others may just let you go but if they don't going sick because of this is silly.
Is this not day case surgery rather than just an appointment? In which case as above you'll be given a sick note for day of op plus anything else necessary.
Our place gives us 2 hours paid leave for doctors hospital appointments (per appointment) anything after that is either paid holiday, or unpaid leave, whatever you decide.
as people have said, an appointment isn't sick leave.
Quite a lot of confusion here!
As jet26 said, this is not just an appointment, it is SURGERY. And you may feel groggy for a day or two after a general anaesthetic. So perhaps it's best to plan to be off for 2 or 3 days.
You are entitled to this time off, as self-certified sick leave. What is in your contract about being paid during sick leave? If you will receive full pay, that's fine - go ahead with this.
If however you are only entitled to Statutory Sick Pay (which is nothing for the first three "Waiting Days"), then you may choose to take paid Annual Leave instead. You have the legal right to do this.
So it depends which you value most: the money or the holidays. But please stop calling it an appointment - it's an operation. If they need any convincing, just show them the Google results 😯
If you're not fit to work the next day, you may be a tad tender, then yes that would class as a sick day.
So given he's having to take a full day because of the anesthetic which is making him unfit to work, presumably he only needs to take the actual time of the op as holiday (or make up the time), the rest he can take as sick?
I've had that op done (twice). Don't plan on being very mobile for a few days afterwards, and you'll not be able to ride your bike for at least 3 weeks afterwards...
Our policy for appointments:
Reasonable time off (up to a maximum of 2 hours
ordinarily unless your manager has consented to
additional time off) with pay will be allowed for
hospital, doctors and dentist appointments, or
for emergency medical or dental treatment. You
are, wherever possible, expected to ensure that
routine appointments are made before or after the
working day (i.e. within the first or last working
hour), or possibly around a lunchtime period
(with agreement). Where this is not possible, it is
expected that appointments will be arranged to
minimise disruption to your work. It is accepted
however, that there are cases where you have
no control over appointment times, e.g. those
allocated by a hospital or clinic, where you have
been subject to a waiting list process.
An operation and subsequent recuperation would be covered by sick pay - not holiday.
Why dorsn't he get someone to phone in when he is having the procedure to say: "graham's not fit to come in at the moment" There you go. He's off sick.
It's a procedure he's having so yes if he's unfit for work following it then he can't work which is sickness. Does that allow sickness on the day of the procedure? Bit of a grey area as it's prebooked but it's not a case of going along for a check up.
Anyway good luck let's hope they ease the pain but keep the swelling for you.
I was recently diagnosed with testicular cancer. I was off work for 3 weeks and this was on full pay. On return to work i was sent to the company doctor to see if i was indeed fit to return. It was advised that i could return as long as the company gave me the necessary time required to attend follow up appointments at the hospital.
Part of the follow up is CT scans, blood tests and Oncologist appointments (still waiting to hear if i need chemo or not). The company have been fine with this and have given me time off to attend all of these on full pay. they are not legally obliged to pay me but they do tend to do this for personnel if it is a genuine case.
What your employer is doing is not legally wrong but certainly moraly wrong. It's just a shame in this day and age the law hasn't changed to offer more protection to employees.
Where I'd work it would be taken as sick leave or at least not from one's holiday allowance.
As the time and day of hospital appointments are outside your control we generally allow paid absence.
You are having a ga so won't be at work the next day (rule applied to all main and day theatres) . You should only tell your work that you require some surgery and you will be away for two days if all goes to plan. You don't need a sick note as you can self certify for the first five days. Good luck
My employer takes the general approach of:
'It's not the time that you put in, its what you put in during that time'
I have paid leave for hospital appointements, nobodies watching the clock, BUT reports etc have to be completed on time and to an acceptable standard...
Where I work medical appointments are taken as part of life and require no time off to be booked, just a chat with manager to show that it is reasonable. If it was all day then or longer then its sick leave.
Specialist hospital appointments are authorised absence, general GP/dentist appointments are unpaid absence where I work.
It would be unpaid leave for me or holiday. Haven't had paid sick days for yonks not since I worked for a medium sized company. In the world of small employers such things as sick days and good holidays are a thing of the past (or so I've found)
if he's unfit for work following it
I don't think he'll be fit for work during the appointment either.
[i]"But please stop calling it an appointment - it's an operation."[/i]
OK, I didn't think the distinction was all that important, I just thought of it as an appointment for an operation. I can see now there is a difference.
[i]"You are having a ga so won't be at work the next day (rule applied to all main and day theatres)"[/i]
I wasn't aware of this rule either. I've had no information from the hospital at all, other than a date and time. It was my GP who told me it was a GA, and then, only after I asked him. I thought they would have told me not to eat for 12 hours beforehand, that's normal procedure for a GA isn't it ?
Considering my job involves driving buses, heavy lifting and making safety critical repairs, I need to be both physically fit and mentally alert, so it looks like at least one extra day off.
Most of the replies here are based on common sense and flexibility between staff and employer.
With the old management, that's just how it would have been for me. They would probably even have sent one of the service crew in the van to pick me up from the hospital and give me a lift home afterwards.
The new director's got a bit of a reputation for confrontation though.
It's the way he instantly said I could book the day as holiday that got me wary.
It's not that big a deal, but I'd rather use my limited number of days of paid leave, or "holiday", as holiday if I can.
[i]"Just ask your surgeon for a sick note on your discharge papers, that'll normally cover the day if the op + appropriate recovery time."[/i]
This sounds worth a try. I was going to contact the hospital for more information anyway. I'll ask them how long they think I'll be unfit for work and if they can issue a sick note in advance.