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This should be worth watching on Channel Four, this Monday at 22.00. This the first time that this very brave organisation (Hope not hate) has allowed cameras to follow one of their undercover investigations. The film was due to premiere at a film festival but due to safety concerns for the staff at the venue it was pulled.
Oh yeah, looks like a bundle of joy for a wet evening
I expect that will be a difficult but important watch. Cheers for the PSA.
Oh yeah, looks like a bundle of joy for a wet evening
IF you're not bothered by the far right, don't worry your little socks about it.
@weeksy I’m sure you’ll not be out at that time on a Monday testing your courage against an inanimate trail? Broaden your horizons!
It is allowed not to be positive about articles you know. This places baffles me that you're not allowed to disagree with things
Broaden your horizons
Why? It only seems to make people angry/unhappy if you look at threads on here. Staying within my bubble means I can remain positive when many other seemingly cannot.
Surely you'd just not post then? Some people are both very worried about the Far Right and also interested in ways in which to stop them.
Should be a good but difficult watch.
Surely you’d just not post then?
Why? Why does everything have to agree these days. Why do people who are negative towards something not allowed an opinion as much as anyone else.
It's a bit of a bugbear for me on this site, as soon as you don't agree with a thread you're pulled up on it.
I don't really do politics so I have no idea what it'll be about, but reading the blurb it doesn't sound like fun. Hence my comment
@weeksy I wouldn’t regard your first response as positive! Staying in a bubble and ignoring the outside world allows hate to fester, getting involved, even if it’s in a small way can help improve our lives and the lives of others.
Well I mean I for instance hate football and hate top gear, but I'd not go on those threads to say how much I dislike them, I'd just ignore. I'm sure you'd find it pretty weird if people constantly posted on the thread about your pads racing to say that they weren't interested and found it boring....(To clarify, that's not my view of the thread).
Also, what @wheelsonfire1 said
Fair call. *Thumbs up smiley that doesn't exist any more*
It is allowed not to be positive about articles you know. This places baffles me that you’re not allowed to disagree with things
OF course you can - as you clearly demonstrated, you can say what you want.
But here's the thing - so can I.
This places baffles me that you’re not allowed to disagree with things
Don't talk soft. Of course you're allowed to disagree with things. But that same allowance extends to others who by turns may disagree with you.
It’s a bit of a bugbear for me on this site, as soon as you don’t agree with a thread you’re pulled up on it.
... good?
Is this not how we learn things?
Should be an interesting watch. Hopefully it will be about actual far right nut jobs rather than anyone who doesn’t believe in unmanaged immigration.
Admittedly I never asked any of them how that squared.
I have. Didn't end well.
Meh, looking at that poster just makes me think it'll be sensationalist blurb, i doubt anything new will be in it, we've seen a fair few behind the curtains stuff before, a lot of us have grown up around a lot of the nutters and after the riots earlier this year, we kind of know the proper far right are a bit of a laughing stock now, rather than a great threat to the survival of the UK.
I expect that will be a difficult but important watch. Cheers for the PSA
My thought as well.
Though having taken my parents up to the annual cousins reunion today, I feel I've been inside this programme. The three non racists retreated to the washing up when it got political.
Surely you’d just not post then? Some people are both very worried about the Far Right and also interested in ways in which to stop them.
Ots a shame they aren’t as worried about the rise of far left terrorist sympathisers round the world
@weeksy. You have to be on messsge if you don’t want shooting down. I agree with you staying in your own bubble is far better than getting angry about things you can’t change.
Ots a shame they aren’t as worried about the rise of far left terrorist sympathisers round the world
Extremists of any creed are rarely a good thing. Though you generally need to go in the other direction if you're looking for genocidal maniacs. "Far left terrorists" tend to be anarchists or communists rather than ethnic cleansers.
It's not for me but given a "lesser of two evils" scenario I'd rather be on the side not typically associated with words like "Reich."
the rise of far left terrorist sympathisers round the world
When did this rise in far left terrorist sympathisers round the world happen? I can't say that I have heard of it.
In contrast the rise of the far-right in Europe and the United States is well documented.
Watching it now. There's some very impressive people in HnH.
even the torygraph reviewed this well!
Hopefully for the knuckledraggers
I couldn't possibly comment for fear of upsetting some users delicate sensibilities, I'm quite proud that my small circle has never given these mouth-breathers any quarter.
The odd association of UK/US 'patriotism' (nationalism) and that evil ideology has always confused but interested me.
Given the events of 80 years ago it is very much an insulting contradiction, probably the most visible declaration of hypocrisy ever?
You have to be on messsge if you don’t want shooting down. I agree with you staying in your own bubble is far better than getting angry about things you can’t change.
As has been pointed out to Weeksy, you're most welcome to voice your opinion, which is a right that those holding contrary positions are also welcome to exercise. The irony of you suggesting "staying in your own bubble" rather than voicing an opinion is incredible. 🙂
Given the events of 80 years ago it is very much an insulting contradiction, probably the most visible declaration of hypocrisy ever?
Absolutely this, never ceases to amazed me that my parents generation, whose on parents fought in the war, are so blind to the hypocrisy.
I'm home alone thus afternoon so I may knock off early after my last meeting and watch this properly.
Given the events of 80 years ago it is very much an insulting contradiction, probably the most visible declaration of hypocrisy ever?
You know what - I'm not convinced most of the British public saw it that way. They were proud to fight against some scummy 'foreigners' that had the audacity to threaten to invade these green and pleasant lands. The political persuasions of those 'orrible upstarts and the persecution they were meating out on Jews, Romanies etc was pretty irrelevant and/or unknown. The racist attitudes and antisemitic thoughts of most of the British great unwashed at the time was pretty vile too. They weren't saving the world from fascism, just saving themselves from having to live like a Kraut.
was pretty irrelevant and/or unknown.
The Holocaust became public knowledge around '42/43 when the American govt published the first reports of mass murder in eastern Europe, and it was pretty common place to have German Jewish GI's and Jewish neutralized German UK service men in regular units that had either fled Nazi Germany before the war, or had relatives there writing to them. And of course once the Allies reached mainland Europe it very quickly became obvious how the Nazis treated civilians, captured and injured soldiers and even their own. I think rather than unknown, certainly by mid war, most soldiers were aware of who they were fighting. Not least because as well as all the things above, they were being briefed through news-reels lectures and reading pamphlets about what was going on.
I think UK far right are attracted by post war revisionism and rehabilitation of some Nazis because of the cold war and the idea spread by some former Nazis that the plan 'all along' was to join forces to defeat Bolshevism (all a load of bollocks obvs) , and the usual other things that some folks are attracted to; the image, the weaponry, the 'elitism' and for some the idea that the Nazis were right all along - however unpalatable that seems.
Just finished watching this. Edited for effect as I'm sure there's a lot of dull legwork involved too, but both fascinating and scary at the same time.
Especially on the day Richard Tice MP referred to jailed rioters as "political prisoners" FFS
Ots a shame they aren’t as worried about the rise of far left terrorist sympathisers round the world
Rightwing fantasist whataboutery at its finest. If you're worried about left wing terrorism and would like to discuss it, start a thread with examples of the things that concern you?
If you’re worried about left wing terrorism
It's the "Baader–Meinhof phenomenon"!
Aka the "frequency illusion".
Anyone pick up on the Marina Hyde dig at Musk today saying that there's no need for him to invoke "my struggle". Top work from her as ever! Will try and catch the documentary later.
Excellent documentary and brave, methodical and dedicated work by HNH. No showboating, just quietly doing good stuff, despite some very real threats to their safety.
we kind of know the proper far right are a bit of a laughing stock now, rather than a great threat to the survival of the UK.
The people featured in the documentary after not a "laughing stock". They're dangerous.
we kind of know the proper far right are a bit of a laughing stock now, rather than a great threat to the survival of the UK.
That really did not age well now the documentary is out there, people jailed for making threats and buying the weapon to carry it out.
More worryingly the comments from the Britain First guy saying he hopes the country continues to go downhill because that is when they will have more appeal and power. Someone has learnt a lesson from history, shame it's not the main political parties.
More worryingly the comments from the Britain First guy saying he hopes the country continues to go downhill because that is when they will have more appeal and power. Someone has learnt a lesson from history, shame it’s not the main political parties.
Nail and head. If you look at the pattern of increasing popularity of National Socialism / Nazism in the run up to them gaining power and the atrocities that followed it's strongly aligned to but lagging a bit behind economic and other problems at a societal level escalating.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
The people featured in the documentary after not a “laughing stock”. They’re dangerous.
I'd say that for many of these people, their ideas are dangerous, the people themselves are often Weird Little Guys. Molly Conger - who has made a career tracking and following many of the folks who took part in the Charlottesville marches, and who's podcast that is has said in the past, that luckily for us, most of these guys think that they are going to be the leaders of the movement that they hope to create, so when they all get together, their egos get in the way of them actually achieving anything. Another researcher, Daniel Harper who contributes to the I don't speak German podcast, often says the same things about the groups he infiltrates, many of them are such narcissistic arseholes they can't actually organise themselves or others.
That's obviously not to try to underplay that some of them go on to do horrific things individually, and websites such as 8-chan Daily Stormer, and Daily Showa and bear much of the responsibility for the (hateful term) "Gamification" of hate that is promoted and goes unchallenged, but at that point you're well into the Gamergate theory of right wing harassment campaigns, once you start poking into this world, you realise that many of the folks who're the target of this documentary are just the surface layer.
To be fair to those journalists, they play around the edges. To go any deeper risks go up by some measure. Especially internationally.
, many of them are such narcissistic arseholes they can’t actually organise themselves or others.
The same was largely true of Hitler's inner circle.
Personally I think it's dangerous to assume that someone with an agenda won't put some effective machinery behind the figureheads. There's plenty of disenchanted behind looking for an excuse / justification to kick off.
A great many of the Nazis were deeply weird people, and some of them (including the man himself) were, by the war's end, serious drug users. But they were broadly hierarchical and organised, they obviously didn't think twice before shoving their colleagues under the bus if they thought it would help them, but ultimately; they had a plan.
Many of today's neo-fascists are not those people. Again, their ideas are hateful, and some of them individually - Anders Brevik, Brenton Tarrant for example go on to do horrible horrible things, but they are the outliers. As RM suggests, the actual folks pouring money into these idiots are often shielded, and are never really investigated, and for the most part aren't yer actual fascists The most interesting and pointed part of that documentary is the fact that much of this stuff is just about moving the conversation, so that very right wing capitalism-conservatism is seen as as moderate and normal.
Yeah, it's probably OK. When has a weird little narcissist ever successfully led a fascist movement to power?
“It makes no difference whatever whether they laugh at us or revile us … whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again …”
for the most part aren’t yer actual fascists
This is Peter Thiel, multi billionaire who has funded lots of right wing "weirdos":
"Liberalism is exhausted, one suspects that democracy, whatever that means, is exhausted, and that we have to ask some questions very far outside the Overton window."
Or
[I] no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible..."
Sounds a wee bit fascist. Musk also seems to think democracy is overrated.
Yeah, it’s probably OK. When has a weird little narcissist ever successfully led a fascist movement to power?
Where did I say that I thought it was 'OK'? But Matthew Frost - the subject of the documentary isn't going to rise up to be the next idiot strutting about in a cos-play uniform, It's politicians like Trump and the people surrounding him that are the danger here. For the people behind the scene pouring money into these morons, that's the plan. They don't want to reinvent the thousand year Reich either, but they do want their very right wing version of ultra capitalism to seem like it's normal, and part of the plan to make that happen is fund these idiots to help them be more prominent.
Thiel and Musk just want to not have to explain themselves or have some-one say "no" to them. Similar, I think, to much of the Silicon Valley ultra-rich (see also; Sam Bankman Fried) I don't think either of them are fascists in that sense. Ultra-Libertarians is a better description.
Ultra-Libertarians is a better description.
Even that doesnt apply since they aint overly fond of libertarianism aside from for themselves. Think the closest is the robber barons or trying to get back to pseudo feudalism with the big man ruling his area.
This is Peter Thiel, multi billionaire who has funded lots of right wing “weirdos”:
The same Peter Theil that has Labour bent over a table and is extracting as much government and nhs data as he can for Palintir, Wes Streeting and Starmer both bought and paid for
Even that doesnt apply since they aint overly fond of libertarianism aside from for themselves. Think the closest is the robber barons or trying to get back to pseudo feudalism with the big man ruling his area.
Bellends works quite well.
Wasn’t the head of Hope Not Hate found to be making stories up about a muslim woman having acid thrown on her amongst other ‘hoaxes’?
I don't know, was he?
The same Peter Theil that has Labour bent over a table and is extracting as much government and nhs data as he can for Palintir, Wes Streeting and Starmer both bought and paid for
Yes, the current government are also fascists, as well as fanatical centrists and are awaiting the dawn of the fourth reich.
Wasn’t the head of Hope Not Hate found to be making stories up about a muslim woman having acid thrown on her amongst other ‘hoaxes’?
Ah, the Nigel Farage 'just asking' tactic.
He did, it was a tweet which was then fact checked.
His other 'hoax' was a made up list of towns where there were far right/nationalist protests being held.
Both shared via X where people routinely confuse activity for action. It is quite literally a place that generates thousands of storms in thousands of teacups.
He justified both by saying that as a result anti-racist messages were being made front page news.
Foolish to be quite frank, as if racists and bigots don't provide enough actual evidence in their behaviour to justify countering. No need to make shit up, they'll provide you with the justification.
Wasn’t the head of Hope Not Hate found to be making stories up about a muslim woman having acid thrown on her amongst other ‘hoaxes’?
No, but he was accused of promoting and stoking the protests that had made up those stories
So, the story goes like this. Some unidentified source tries to stoke up anti-immigration feeling by the usual tactic of being "a concerned local" the list was supposedly made up of immigrants held at detention centres in loads of locations who were the usual bogeymen; suspected rapists child molesters and so on. It's totally fictitious, they're all made up, and designed solely to provoke demos (and hopefully a bit of argy-bargy with the cops) to get into the press.
Nick Lowes and Hope Not Hate were then accused of spreading and promoting the planned demos presumably in the hope that it would encourage counter-demonstrations. There was quite a fuss with lots of folks essentially accusing HNH of using the fakery (that they knew was fake) to their own ends just as much as the original plan was, and that a better use would've been to perhaps highlight the fact that it was all a load of made up shit. To make it worse perhaps, Nick took to Twitter to admit that they knew it was all fake, but legitimatised the behavior by saying;
"Yes, the list was a hoax, but just look at the front pages of today’s papers. An anti-racist message is being transmitted to millions of homes this morning"
So that's the story.
Beaten to it by R-M
a better use would’ve been to perhaps highlight the fact that it was all a load of made up shit.
The problem here is, this doesn't work.
I've no idea whether the story is a failure to fact-check - the tweet posted here says "reports are coming in" which may well have been true in itself - or a deliberate intent to mislead. But the Right and their bootboy tabloids have been dining on this tactic for years, tales of "immigrants" coming here and getting free castles or what have you, "share if you think this is a disc race" and it gets shared to **** and back. The fact that it's a lie is neither here nor there. The Mail worked out decades back that they could report whatever the hell they wanted as headline news and then recant two days later in a small boxout on page 7.
It's too late, the message is out there, it's in people's heads. Going "yeah, it's not true" changes nothing. Look at brexit. Christ, we're still dealing with the MMR anti-vax fallout caused by Andrew Bastard Wakefield and that was in the 1990s, how is "he made it up" working out for us there?
I'm ashamed to be thinking this, but would a horrific murder by right wing extremists be "more effective" in making the public wake up to the reality of what these groups are trying to do and why their lies need to be stopped?
And then I remembered Jo Cox and realised I was thinking bollocks.
They are like a cancer in society and enough people still want to keep on smoking regardless.
That's like most 'isms/ists' isn't it. It's clearly an inate part of the human condition and will be a constant factor in social unrest.
Doesn't mean the march to combat or attempts to eradicate it stop, just means expectations are managed and the task is clear.
"Don't be afraid of work that has no end" rings true.
The problem here is, this doesn’t work.
Sure, I'm not the marketing director of Hope Not Hate, I'm pretty sure they probably know their playing field better than the people arguing with them about their tactics.
kcr
Free MemberThis is Peter Thiel, multi billionaire who has funded lots of right wing “weirdos”:
Always worth remembering that the only reason Elon Musk was the first CEO of the merged x.com and Confinity- which became Paypal- is that Peter Thiel was such an enormous * that nobody wanted him to do the job, they chose instead to vote for the guy whose company was only in the merger in order to destroy them as a competitor. But then they got to know Musk, and as soon as they did they fired his ass because while Thiel was an enormous * at least he wasn't a total incompetent. Musk then proceeded to get enormously rich based on Thiel's business decisions while still thinking he was a genius and knew better.
When there is so much depressing news, and it's a dank October day, it is lovely to see a little ray of sunshine which warms the cockles of your heart :0)
Tommy Robinson has been charged under the terrorism act after handing himself in at a police station in Folkestone, Kent.
The PCS union at work was drumming up support for the anti-Tommy march.
The brilliant thing about Stephen Lennon being held under Schedule 7 is that it is aimed at terrorist suspects entering the country and being stopped at the border. That must make it double painful for him!
He is also being held on remand so he won't be attending his own march.
Also in today's news, another right wing "outlier":
A Nazi-obsessed extremist who stabbed an asylum seeker in the chest and said he was “exterminating the invasive species” in a “terrorist manifesto” has been found guilty of attempted murder.
Callum Parslow, who has Adolf Hitler’s signature tattooed on his left arm, repeatedly stabbed Nahom Hagos, 25, in the attack at a hotel previously used to house asylum seekers in Worcestershire.
In a post he tried to publish on X after the attack, Parslow said he had “done his duty to England” and had “exterminated the harmful, invasive species”. He tried to tag Tommy Robinson in the post, as well as prominent politicians such as Keir Starmer, Rishi Sunak, Nigel Farage and Suella Braverman.
Somebody like this doesn't spring out of nowhere. They are sitting in their bedrooms reading stuff like the pseudo scientific nonsense peddled by Matthew Frost and his associates, and using it to justify their so-called manifestos. That's why it is important that the people investigated in the C4 documentary are exposed to daylight.
There's many outsiders to society - ”weirdos” as you like to call them - who have not a fascist bone in their body please don't equate them with it. -edit: other than that don't mind me, carry on. Going to try watching it later.
Nick Lowles, the group’s chief executive, said: “I think it’s going to be a lot angrier, regardless of whether Lennon is there or not. This one is very much aimed at the prime minister, the police, and this sense of injustice around the riots. My understanding is the police are quite concerned about the public order element.
“The chatter in the football hooligan WhatsApp groups is that they are coming in quite big numbers. And given that many of the people who will be there have a kind of liking for violence or disorder, I can understand why the police are worried.”
I used ”weirdos” as a reference to an earlier post (hence the quotes). I'm not equating "outsiders to society" (whoever they are) with anything. I'm talking about Fascists, and unfortunately a lot of them are very much part of our society.
Tommy Robinson jailed for contempt of court
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c704eedkqkvo
"such a controversial figure he may be placed in solitary confinement by prison governors, as had occurred the last time he had been jailed, and there was medical evidence he had previously suffered trauma, panic attacks and nightmares"
Oh that's a shame.
I know, bless him. What a foul man.
Big up HNH who according to Guardian prepared a dossier to suggest a breach of the injunction.
I like this..
The court was told by Sasha Wass KC, for Robinson, that he was a journalist and it was his “principles that have brought him before the court”.
She argued for mitigation on the basis that her client had pleaded guilty “sooner rather than later” even though he previously failed to turn up at a hearing of the case in July.
Robinson was ordered to pay costs of £80,350.82 sought by the solicitor general. He was reminded by Mr Justice Johnson that he would still be subject to the injunction after his release and liable for sanction again if he breached it.
Exactly how did he think this was going to end?
Clearly thick as well as an odius racist..
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Boo hoo...although tbf I'd happily see him serve his sentence in the general population..
Exactly how did he think this was going to end?
Martyrdom. There will be fury erupting amongst the FREE ARE TOMY brigade.
He knew this was going to happen, hence skipping the last court date and going on his holibobs whilst stoking the rioting.