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Has been my home for 25 years, I love this place. I know some here have ties also.
Oh me oh my, it’s messy!
Don’t know what else to say other than please pray for the place 👍
Indeed. It looks messy. Haven't been out in a few months, and my local team sound wary about us travelling out there. ☹
I too love the place, and just want to see it happy again. HKers deserve it.
Tonight is even worse. Police Station on fire, petrol bombs chaos 😢
Doesn't look good.
One of our friends daughters is off to study at the uni for a year. Mildly worried about her TBH, but I'm thinking th euni would pull it if it was genuinely dangerous.
Fond memories of my time there. The handover was so strange, like the irrepressible energy of the place took a quick check then carried on regardless. Scary.
My GF is from there, she's finding the whole thing quite upsetting.
Sadly this kind of thing was inevitable post-handover, as China wants to make HK China, and a good sized chunk of the HK population don't want that at all.
Allegedly the Chinese have been loading the police with mainlanders and making is easier for them to settle in HK to attempt to drive "mainlandisation", the locals were always going to push back at some point.
I have fond memories of the place, lived and worked there back in the late 80's before the hand over.
Sadly I dont think it will end well. China will enforce whatever it wants, no compromise. Gradually they will squeeze the protesters until they stop protesting. Either because they are visiting a re-education center, or have fled overseas in fear of thier life and liberty.
The West are too scared to do anything, plus, should we actually be interfering with internal problems in another country ? We dont have a good track record around the world when it comes to messing with other countrys, so even if its right to now do so, I dont see that being the general view eveyone will hold. Can of worms is an understatment.
Look at what China has done elsewhere when faced with any form of disent from its population.
Oddy enough I have been praying for HK as have mates that are from there who work there.
And dad’s partner’s daughter works there iirc.
It does sound/look horrendous so thoughts are with you to stay safe as poss.
👍😊
I had a great time there whilst travelling in 2002. Been following this recently. Feel sorry for the people of Hong Kong.
China will STOMP on the protesters soon. It won't be the white shirted goons we saw earlier this month beating on protesters with sticks it will be the military using tanks and guns. The protesters are pushing too hard and China as Trimix stated earlier will not tolerate dissent in the masses for fear it will snowball into a wider revolt against the communist party.
Winnie the Pooh and the Communist Party won't care about the whining from the West about casualties and in 10 years time the event will be washed from the Chinese memory like Tiananmen Square has been, or it will be used to accuse the West and Colonial troublemakers of stirring up anti Chinese rioters that needed putting down and help fan Chinese patriotism in preparation for the Pacific Expansion program.
I suspect it will get quieter as the school and university holidays finish, it's bad but not on the 1967 level....yet. Theres a lot of big social issues in HK that have been bubbling over and now unleashed by the recent protests. It started in 2014 and now is providing a vent for those stuck in the system here, massive gaps between rich and.poor, an economy run by property agents and the real fear of being overrun by the Han Chinese.
Even my wife is discussing getting a full fat GB passport, shes BNO at present. The times are definitely a changing.
Although I should add I'm working in Beijing at the moment, nothing on the local TV here 🙂
Sadly, we are all responsible for this situation as we've watched Tianamen, then still bought container after container from the regime that drove tanks over its own people. China sees the west as being weak.
The one thing that *might* save the people of Hong Kong - the threat of a complete block on trade with China by all wesstern nations if the regime commits mass murder - will never happen, because we all like our cheap, plastic tat.
The west sells out the brave people of Hong Kong in order to keep its people pacified with plasma tvs.
Sorry, I’m gonna nudge this back. Today was peaceful 🙏
Those who’ve commented thnx.
It’s going to get bad again tmw.
Solution ? I’m not qualified. Prognosis ? Terminal I fear 🙁
Even my wife is discussing getting a full fat GB passport, shes BNO at present. The times are definitely a changing.
She should get a proper GB passport as life in HK will get even harder from now on as most of the rich has other passport long time ago. No point opposing China as HK is part of China and eventually all laws will be the same as those in mainland China. Centralisation is the norm in China.
If the West intend to "fuel" the tension in HK it will only add to the suffering of HK people. Put it this way they might live under a Chinese system but at least they are alive. China cannot afford dissenting voice regardless due to their more than 1.4 billion population. Taiwan is different in the sense that it is the retreating KMT govt that presides over the island, but eventually it will also be China.
If I can recall the transition period is set at 50 years ...
Joint Declaration in 1984 stated 50 years of agreement correct. Dear Lord, Monday looked the end of Time.
I’ve been here 25 years, I retire soon and will stay here no matter what. But holy moly I’ve not seen viciousness like this since I was a copper in Cardiff in the 1990s
Sadly, we are all responsible for this situation as we’ve watched Tianamen, then still bought container after container from the regime that drove tanks over its own people.
Things are never this simple and the way not to deal with difficult regimes is to simply cut them off - this has been demonstrated time and time again. Tiananmen happened before we started buying container after container from them when they were a closed nation to the rest of the world. Since they've opened up a bit things have got a lot better for Chinese people. The rise in China as a global economic superpower has softened the regime and brought more freedom and prosperity to billions of people who before were below the poverty line living in squalor without access to education, medicine, electricity, clean water etc. (probably a realisation by the regime after Tiananmen which has caused them to go down the current road and giving people more freedom and prosperity). Still a long way to go for China, but there is more personal freedom there now than before. These things don't happen overnight and shouldn't happen overnight. The Arab spring didn't go down too well - all happened too quickly destabilised the area with a lot of warring factions that were previously held in a precarious balance and a delicate stalemate and disrupting all of that has been an absolute disaster with the key players still in power but destroyed nations and the civilian population slaughtered.
China is going to need the rest of the world going forward more than ever before. It faces an unprecedented population crisis as the years of the single child policy has caused a massive imbalance in the split between the sexes and a reduction in the population growth in China meaning it will have to attract millions of immigrants over the coming decades to sustain its growth and maintain its population. And to attract highly skilled and educated immigrants it's going to have to be an attractive place to live - which means freedom, prosperity and all the usual trappings of the Western world. China is changing.
But hopefully things will quieten down in HK. I've visited there a number of times and its an awesome place with awesome people. One of the few places in that part of the world i'd love to go back and spend more time. But I guess more alignment to the 'mother country' was inevitable which will be hard for those in HK.
The only aspect that I oppose is the alignment (not a law yet I think) of the usage of Chinese written language. HK is still using the "long form" of traditional writing (just like Taiwan) but China is using the "new" form of simplified characters. As far as written language is concerned the South (including south China long time ago) traditionally has more ways of expression in both written and pronunciation. Like all dynasties they come and go but at the moment China is in the Communist "dynasty" so standardisation is the norm. Overseas Chinese (descendent living all over the world) has a choice of learning both language but in S.E. Asia only Malaysia permits formal Chinese independent schools while countries like Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand, Brunei, Burma etc all "eradicated" formal Chinese schools and the Chinese descendent in those countries have all gone native. Although Chinese in those countries no longer have their own written language they can still be scapegoat for all religious tension like in Indonesia a while back.
China is going to need the rest of the world going forward more than ever before. It faces an unprecedented population crisis as the years of the single child policy has caused a massive imbalance in the split between the sexes and a reduction in the population growth in China meaning it will have to attract millions of immigrants over the coming decades to sustain its growth and maintain its population. And to attract highly skilled and educated immigrants it’s going to have to be an attractive place to live – which means freedom, prosperity and all the usual trappings of the Western world. China is changing.
It's one hypothesis, but look at the Arab world for an alternative. Simply pay westerners enough that they ignore the lack of freedoms and blatant human rights abuses and racism.
As for the need for a growing population to fuel growth, not so sure there either. China's economy is built on exports and still has a large rural population. So growth can be sustained if they can export more and more. As well as urbanisation increasing per capita growth as productivity increases. In a socialist economy* it costs the same amount for a subsistence farmer as it does an engineer, but the engineer gives you far more productivity.
*no economy is actually truly like this, it's a model/theory.
HKG in total shutdown today.
😐
HKG in total shutdown today.
Soon HK will be put in quarantine ...
They can fight but they will not win and unless they have another passport they will be stuck in HK.
Note that the Government in China refer to the protesters as Terrorists.
This will not end well. Sadly the West are powerless and will be ingored by the Chinese.
No point opposing China as HK is part of China and eventually all laws will be the same as those in mainland China. Centralisation is the norm in China.
Sadly this. As awful as it is this is the truth. It's China so China's rules. The tragedy is British colonialism really.
The tragedy is British colonialism really.
In what way for this specific case.
Thinking of the upside apparently Hong Kong currently buy a fair amount of their crowd control weapons from the UK so with all the tear gas being sent off there may be one or two export orders coming in.
Note that the Government in China refer to the protesters as Terrorists.
This will not end well. Sadly the West are powerless and will be ingored by the Chinese.
As far as I know some of the media people (more like private media/web channels) are actively supporting the protest. The problem is that these media people have another passport(s) or another country(s) they can go to but most of the protesters may not have this choice, and protesting will only put their own livelihood at risk.
Majority are young people and should put their energy in finding ways to migrate to another country legitimately rather than fighting the lost cause.
Chinese Armed Police are massing in Shenzhen and China TV has put out a video showing armoured cars and quoting when the Armed Police can be used....
In what way for this specific case.
Because European colonialism lead to the power vacuums, instability and loss of face that caused anti-democratic and anti-western populist backlash across East Asia - eg China, Japan, Vietnam and the Philippines.
Anyhow, the easiest way to get a bit of revenge for this is to start selling Taiwan weapons at knock down prices.
Chinese Armed Police are massing in Shenzhen and China TV has put out a video showing armoured cars and quoting when the Armed Police can be used….
Eventually they will use the army to stop the protest.
If China can quarantine 20 to 30 million people what is HK? China can relocate 10 million people easily to the Northern ghost city(s) (few of the northern cities are practically empty) of near inner Mongolia. There the people will suffer harsh winter ...
Army will be from different province and will Not have sympathy towards the HK locals. HK police have been rather restrained so far but the protest has not stopped so will be viewed by the politburo as incompetent ...
If China does that then they are idiots, foreign investment is already Crashing, if they hollow out Hong Kong it will crash even further. They will then lash out and further isolate themselves from the global community.
Obvious it was going to happen and I don't think we have seen anything yet. The UKs craven and spineless handover is a real low point.
The UK could have never have hung on to HK and it didn’t have the right to either.
The PLA would have marched in and humiliated Britain if we had not ceded it in 1997.
If China does that then they are idiots, foreign investment is already BFF dashing, if they hollow out Hong Kong it will crash even further. They will then lash out and further isolate themselves from the global community.
China knows that foreign investment slow down will just be a temporary hiccup and once normality is restored the foreign investment will start to flow back slowly, and they can wait because there is money to be made.
Just as much right Rayban as hanging on to the Falklands or refusing to give the Chagos islanders back their land.
Spineless and inept. If it had been a small powerless country do you think we would have handed it over?
The UK just gave the territory back because they were scared of china.
Foreign investment won’t return as quickly as they think it will, it certainly hasn’t returned to Russia yet. It was going in the right direction for a while but the last decade or so has seen Russia piss their economy up the wall.
Just as much right Rayban as hanging on to the Falklands or refusing to give the Chagos islanders back their land.
Spineless and inept. If it had been a small powerless country do you think we would have handed it over?
The UK just gave the territory back because they were scared of china
complete and total bollocks - the falklands were an uninhabited island. HK was annexed by a war where we were the aggressors.
We couldn’t even defeat the North Korean army with the Americans - we’d have never held out in the 90s against the PLA. That’s crazy talk.
We did return HK to China against the wishes of the population though - as we're seeing now.
Foreign investment won’t return as quickly as they think it will, it certainly hasn’t returned to Russia yet. It was going in the right direction for a while but the last decade or so has seen Russia piss their economy up the wall.
Unlike Russia China has been slowly but steadily progressing for the past 50 years in an "orderly" fashion ...
Russia has its boarder with Europe so is perceived as a threat so need to be seen as the bogeyman while China is in the far east not even close to Europe. Also China has never been the aggressors other than trying to deal with their own territory.
Rayban - Chagos islands? We are in breach of international law adn UN resolutions in not giving them back
There is Zero moral differnce IMO between the three situations. Only one have we given back - the one where a major power was involved.
so go on - whats the moral differnce between Hong Kong, chagos islands and falklands?
In what way for this specific case.
Simply put if it had always been china it would still be china and the inhabitants would know no different. But this had been put better above ⬆️
Simply put if it had always been china it would still be china and the inhabitants would know no different.
Or alternately they might be treated like the Uyghurs
I'm pretty sure re-education via imprisonment is incoming. 🙁
so go on – whats the moral differnce between Hong Kong, chagos islands and falklands?
The Falklands islanders want to be British?
Like Scottish independence they were offered a vote and chose to remain British. If Denmark decided to invade based on it previous being Viking we might help you out, wouldn't even need the Vulcan as youre closer.
I have a bad feeling about the next 48 hours, I think there could be some very bloody retribution against the protesters coming up. China's economy is flatlining, the gov know this could lead to widespread civil unrest on the mainland, and they may want to make an example of HK in the meantime.
I began this thread and was at HKIA yesterday. Simply incredible. There is a huge amount of BS fake news circulating from both camps. PRC will only intervene as a last resort. However, that juncture may have been reached.
The Chinese military are 20 mins outside Hong Kong.
This is not going to be pretty.
God save the people of Hong Kong.
Is this what they are protesting over
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Hong_Kong_anti-extradition_bill_protests
@tails yes, that was the original stimulus. When nobody paid attention to peaceful protests, they provoked a fight which by damn they got and tragically are still getting. Situation is horrible with no solution apparent at the moment.
TINAS - and the hong Kong citizens did not want to be Chinese citizens - but what chance where they given?
the Chagos islanders were illegally thrown off their land and the UK government has refused to let them back in defiance of international law and UN resolutions
Of course the other difference is the Falkland islanders are white!
They did before Britain took it - and if it weren’t for the humiliation of the opium wars then we might never have had the PRC in the first place. It was t our place to keep it just as it’s not our place to keep the Chagos islands.
Give any protestors who can leave British citizenship and send arms to Taiwan - that is the most we can and could ever do. The difference is not because falklanders are white, the difference is that HK was Chinese sovereign property whilst the Falklands were not originally Argentine property.
So we can defy international law and the UN to stop the chagos islanders getting their home back, we can defy international law and kill well over a thousand young men to assert sovereignty over the Falklands but over hong kong all we could do was roll over?
The Chagos islands still belong to the UK!
Point out where we broke international law on defending the falklands and what right Argentina has to the Falklands.
Explain how fighting a nuclear armed PLA is comparable to fighting the Argies.
And the Chagos islanders have chosen to be part of the uk like the falklanders tj?
We too easily fall into the premise of viewing this from a Western perspective / culture.
China is not Western, it does not think like us, act like us.
Just look at how the tiananmen square has been erased from history undert the direct gaze of the whole world. They control the internet in China. They control how public opinion is formed, recorded and taught.
They will view any disruption as an insult to their nation first. Any disruption will be squashed, not negotiated away. To negotiate it away, or modify their behaviour as a result of external pressure is just not Chinese. Economic pressure is a distant second thought when it comes to restoring order in their country.
The current leader will act with overwhelming strength and its wishfull thinking to hope otherwise.
Point of fact: HK Island was leased in perpetuity during the opium wars, Kowloon and NT for 99 years. The 99 years were up in 1997 and HK Island could not sensibly exist without Kowloon/NT (water etc) hence the handback. Macau was similarly leased to Portugal and, IIRC, handed back in 1995.
And the Chagos islanders have chosen to be part of the uk like the falklanders tj?
They just want to live on the island we stole from them to give to the US.
TJ, you're conflating several different colonies, former colonies, parts of the Uk with huge differences in how/why they are how they are.
Just because one set of islands has a history doesn't mean another shares it. You didn't mention Gibraltar, Jersey, Shetland?
TINAS
My point is the hypocrisy
Chagos islanders - despite being in breach of international law and UN resolutions they are not being allowed home - why - because the US has a base there
Falklands - we killed a thousand people to assert sovereignty and breached international law
Hong Kong - nothing we can do - just give them to china!
Did the hong kong peoples get a vote on remaining a colony / becoming independent?
All three are island colonies / protectorates / whatever
We can defy international law and the UN when it suits but over HOng KKong we could not
the moral difference between the 3 is zero. The difference is that when the people are white we fight for them. When they are brown we do not, when we need to appease a major power we roll over
It was obvious that this would happen in Hong Kong - we just abandoned those people to their fate. We didn't even give them right to settle in the UK. its disgraceful
Fellas, please stop the bickering 🙏 myself, at least two other forum members and 7 million HK people are potentially looking down the barrel of a bloody huge gun. So, please, on topic.
I am a home owner here, my family rely on me as do all other residents.
I pray otherwise but 175 years of HK history may be rewritten this week. We are all scared 😞
Did the hong kong peoples get a vote on remaining a colony / becoming independent?
To the best of my knowledge they did not, and if they had then the order of desires goes something like:
1. Fully Indenpendent
2. British Colony/dependancy/whatever
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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3. Chinese.
Source: My GF is a Hong Konger. It's worth rembering that while mainland Chinese/Hong Kong Chinese are (I think) ethnically thre same (Han Chinese) they have different languages, Hong Kong speaks Cantonese, the Mainland Mandarin. That the Chinese govt is trying to prevent Catonese being taught in Hong Kong schools is a whole other thread in itself...
Loughor, get yourself over to the Roundhouse for a well earned beer. Perhaps dinner at Manchu afterwards.
When it's all blown over, and I'm back out there, how about a pint or two?
Stay safe.
Flashy old chap, if that is still on the table I shall happily pay for all you need 👍🙏
I shall even show you a new trail or two if that is of your persuasion ! Thank you for your support 🙏
It's certainly a scary situation. Putin has already demonstrated (if you're a country of significant military power) you can do pretty much what you like (e.g. Crimea) and get away with it as no one these days is going to risk war over something that doesn't directly involve them (and has no impact on things like the global oil supply). Anyway it's only really the US that would have any power to intervene in HK and I'm guessing they'll just be fine with economic sanctions at best. The UK has no power to do anything.
I'm actually more surprised China hasn't already overtly intervened but it seems inevitable they will soon, they've already laid all the groundwork both with their messaging and deploying paramilitary forces on the border.
Unfortunately the demonstrators are caught between two nightmarish outcomes, China quashing the protests and imposing direct rule under their mainland laws or the HK people stopping the protests and China implementing effectively the same thing just in a more under-hand and slower way. I can't see any possibility this ends up with HK staying properly under a two-systems agreement.
China seems to be acting quite restrained ATM (I'm not there, so don't know).
Is this because if they go in mob handed then Taiwan can say to the world "Told you so"?
Got to say I'm not picking up any of the vibes you lot are and like Loughor I live here.
The general gist I am getting is people are starting to get peed off with the protestors disrupting day to day life, Hong Kong people can be very small minded in that respect (i.e. if it doesnt affect me it's not my problem).
I understand that some paramiltary forces are already in town "helping" the police which would proabably explain some of the recent heavy handed actions, however small groups of protestors are also not helping themselves, especially at the airport at the moment.
Expect an escalation from them and then a short Sharp reply, the Chinese government are being very restrained, they just need a good legitimate (to the outside world) reason to wield the hammer.
Had my mum Whatsapping me earlier asking if the tanks have arrived yet, what is your news showing you?
I cant blame the protesters for doing what they are doing. They are creating a world wide stink. What else can they do. What would you do.
Either fight publically now and go down kicking and screaming. Or do nothing and go down suffocating slowly.
I would pick the former myself.
Had my mum Whatsapping me earlier asking if the tanks have arrived yet, what is your news showing you?
dunno if you can access twitter, but this has been fairly widely circulated (videos of a million military vehicles posting up in Shenzhen)
https://twitter.com/AlexandreKrausz/status/1160947525442056193
My brother's family live in HK so it is a bit worrying particularly as my nieces are 8 and 11.
They are not there at the moment but will be returning via the airport in a couple of days. His wife works for a large bank there and there is talk that it may relocate people to Singapore if things start getting worse.
I would like to see the tech giants take some initiative. A threat from Apple to move production from China would probably have more influence than any UK posturing but I will not hold my breath waiting for it as I think that they (and the other big tech companies) are morally bankrupt and shirk the responsibility that comes with their economic power.
Falklands – we killed a thousand people to assert sovereignty and breached international law
What laws did we beach? (Not snark, I didn't know we'd broken international law).
I'm not sure it's simply racism that made us defend the Falklands but not HK, though racism may be a part of it.
1: As I understand it Argentina has no serious legal claim on the Falklands, while China does have a legal claim on HK
2: Argentina invaded, whereas China negotiated.
3: Going to war with China is not really feasible. Britain had the ability to 'take back' the Falklands, it quite simply does not have the strength to face China.
Easily - at the risk of sending this waaaaay off topic sinking the Belgrano, bombing argentina were the most obvious breaches - altho the bombing of argentia was the most amazing piece of work.
tjagain
Doh! It’s a long time ago and I’m ashamed to say I’d forgotten about that. Thanks for putting me straight.
The captain of the Belgrano disagrees. Also, Argentina was never bombed.
All that is for a different discussion, however.
Indeed it is. ~And CFH is right on that about the mainland bombing. My mistake
WTF are you going on about the Falklands for? It's nothing like the current situation in HK.
The Argentinian military junta invaded the Falklands as a last gasp act to regain some popularity (we would likely have negotiated a hand back of sorts with them anyway but they just wanted a show of power and to stir up some nationalism). Whilst the Belgrano was sunk outside of the exclusion zone it (alongside other Argentinian naval units) were preparing to launch an attack on the British task force (we know this from intercepted signals). You really think we should have waited until they'd launched an attack rather than pre-emptively sinking a ship acting in a hostile way belonging to a country that had just invaded islands under UK sovereignty)
Also the SAS/SBS were on the mainland but in an observational role (i.e. to give early warning of their planes taking off). There was speculation sabotage missions were planned but they never happened.
WTF are you going on about the Falklands for?
Right back at you...
CaptainFlashheart
All that is for a different discussion, however.
Please? Responding to the post from a hong Kong resident above
As an HK resident I'm a little confused what the hell the Falkland War has to do with the situation here, then I realised I'm on an online forum and some people......
Perhaps those who need to argue over the Falklands can start a new thread.
Preferably a thread in the middle of the Atlantic hours from here...................nooooo, Im just adding to it now. Sorry !
CFH: don't mention the war
TJ: he started it
CFH: no he didn't
TJ: yes he did, he invaded poland the Falklands