Home WiFi Question. Worth upgrading a VM Router?

I use the Virgin router as a modem only and years ago added an Appple AirPort Extreme. They are no longer made so I’ll be interested to follow this thread.
I looked at Tp-Links range (AX 1800 wifi 6 dual might be ok?) and it’s almost impossible to differentiate as there are so many parameters.
I don’t want our brains cooked by super powerful Wi-Fi but it would be good to have a little better coverage.
Tp-Link mains plug / wifi extenders work pretty well here. (Sends the signal through the mains) We have 2 wifi and one that does Ethernet to avoid cabling upstairs. We’d still use those perhaps as our house has thick walls and so seems incompatible with the latest “Mesh” (wire free extender) systems.

I don't think the issue is with WiFi range, but device capacity. I tried getting a free signal booster out of VM, but when I used the app I had excellent signal strength through the entire house.
I've used one of I those TP link mains Ethernet extenders in my garage/mancave for a camera looking over my bikes. It worked pretty well.

I’m well into smart-home stuff now so similarly have loads of devices. The forums are full of people having problems as their free ISP routers are struggling with capacity. Early on I upgraded to a Unifi network & have experienced no such problems! Also comes with great management software which, whilst not perfect gives you quite a lot of control & makes identifying & solving network problems pretty easy.

They’ve recently released a new router called the UDR which is perfect for home use. You can use your existing router in modem-only mode (if it supports it, pretty sure the Virgin one does) or just plug straight in if you have fibre. It also features a built-in WiFi 6 access point.

The TP Omada system is apparently good also, bit less spendy but no experience personally.

Probably not doing yourself any favours though if you have LOADS of wireless cameras as they’re going to eat up a lot of bandwidth. Wired via PoE is the best way, I have a couple of Unifi PoE switches which my cameras connect to.

I don’t think the issue is with WiFi range, but device capacity.

It's what I did, but I have two-foot thick internal walls so the VM hub didn't stand a hope. I have a dropped-spider Asus router for normal things and a dedicated £20 little box of awesome for the IoT stuff.

Reconfiguring the Virgin hub to act as a modem was an utter pain in the penis. Yell if you go down this route and I can likely save you a lot of grief, it took me days.

Also have VM and have put the router into modem mode with Google WiFi throughout the house and garage. WiFi pucks are back hauled over Ethernet, which is also run to all main rooms so work laptop, kids Xboxen, etc are all hard wired. It was a few years ago so the memory is faint, but I do seem to recall a real ball ache getting the router into modem mode so I’d advise taking Cougar up on his offer.

I found the virgin router to be terrible like you’ve experienced. Kept disconnecting from the work servers and teams call quality was abysmal even though I was getting 100mbps on speed tests. I bought a TP-Link AX1800 and put the virgin box into modem mode, it’s been rock steady since without any drop outs.

Definitely replace the free router!

I also converted the VM router into modem mode.

I went with Google Wi-Fi pucks as a mesh network. It’s kind of ok but I need four pucks with 2 of them back hauled via power line adapters to cover a 1700sqf house. One puck is obviously hardwired as the router. Even then I drop the signal more often than I’m happy with. Wouldn’t buy again tbh

Same as some of you I put the router into modern mode (found it pretty straight forward following the virgin instructions), and attached it to some tp link deco mesh jobbies (one wired in and one other at the back of the house). Only a 1000 square foot house but no problem with all the thousands of things that want to connect to your WiFi these days.

When setting up the new WiFi I used the same ssid and password from the virgin box to save reconnecting everything.

When setting up the new WiFi I used the same ssid and password from the virgin box to save reconnecting everything.

Someone mentioned the tp-link Omada range, it’s likely not for you as all the various services that are present in a aio ‘router’ such as fw/router, management console, switch & wifi access point are different components.

I’d head over to routertrack world & see what the rate that fits your budget. Note they are us based so there could be some regional discrepancies.
https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/tools/rankers/wifi-router/view

That said the unifi dream router is also likely a good shout.

As others. VM box soon proved crap in the old house. Installed a to link Deco mesh (3 nodes). Was rock solid. Have since gone to another provider and as everything was hooked up to the mesh it just needed plugging in. Then we moved and went back to VM. Same again it's working a treat. Gets periodic firmware updates. Should be backwards compatible with other models in the range for expansion if needed. All good stuff and not loads of money.
This time of year is a good time to get them as black Friday is just round the corner. Just make sure you get a Gbit (minimum) ethernet model in case you need to backhaul.

Yes. I too have a deco mesh system hanging of the vm crappy unit, it’s been really stable no freak dropouts since. When my old ASUS router died we used the vm one for a couple of miserable weeks. As above clone the settings and the devices just pick it up no hassle. I didn’t find the switch over very demanding technically tbh. I have had to buy a wired switch to get more Ethernet ports for the wired stuff though; NAS etc.

Never used the Virgin router except when I’ve first had them just to check they work. Then into modem mode as I’ve always had my own strains of access points and now ASUS MESH.

Agree with the setting up your own SSID and passwords. Don’t really understand why folks stick with the nonsense that comes setup on ISP routers when you can easily change that to your own settings.

Now using the BRSK ONT connected to my ASUS MESH system.

I also went the TP-LInk Deco route with the VM router turned into a modem. Personally, I was fearing that bit might be a bit fraught but it turned out to be a very straightforward exercise. Overall, wifi has been pretty solid since the change. It was a case of finding that sweet spot between value for money (aka not too expensive) but something that actually did what I wanted it to do. The Deco's seem to fit that bill.

That said the unifi dream router is also likely a good shout.

I'm in the process of switching from a Synology mesh to Unifi as the last update to 1.3 "screwed the pooch" for functionality. The RC was in June and the final release should have been ok to install but I'm no longer able to get all devices to connect wirelessly. It appears that the 36 device limit for the router only has been applied to the whole network. Hopefully we'll only need the router and one access point to get full house and out building coverage like now.

Agree with the setting up your own SSID and passwords. Don’t really understand why folks stick with the nonsense that comes setup on ISP routers when you can easily change that to your own settings.

Given that computer security is my day job these days, I don't trust that the stock passwords aren't algorithmically generated and figure it's only a matter of time before it's considered broken. Plus I can set it to a complex password that I can remember.

Now using the BRSK ONT connected to my ASUS MESH system.

Was that straight forward? It's likely where I'm going to end up, if Openreach ever get around to fixing the manhole down the road so that Brsk can finish the install.

Openreach ever get around to fixing the manhole down the road

I hope that you're not holding your breath. Premises move 8 months in the planning, we moved last Monday and the number didn't port across. It's still not ported across!
This and the constant "Due to the high number of calls. . ." messages while calling support suggest that they have knowingly understaffed and complaints are baked into the process (for ignoring). An absolute shower.

Well, I have an explicit date and I'm not dealing with them directly so... 🤷‍♂️

I have the latest VM hub - and use it as a modem. I use TP Link Deco 5 mesh system for the WiFi, mainly as I couldn't get a good signal in my office (attic) or my wife's (back bedroom) using the Virgin box as a WiFi router.

Generally it works well - but guess what, I get a lot of drop outs - phone will tell me that it is no longer connected to wifi, so use mobile data etc. Also Sonos continually drops out in our kitchen - it is on the same network, I should be getting 200 Mbps etc. Tis buffering etc. Decos constantly moved to try and get more stability.

It has been doing my head in for about 4 years. Virgin tell me it is not them (though they are very sneaky on speed and bandwidth). I have tried loads of things (even a new Virgin hub) - and it still happens.The Deco is dual band - 2.5 Ghz and 5 Ghz. Yesterday, I stopped it broadcasting on both - and it is now on just 5 Ghz. And now it seems to be fine. Sonos has been working for most of the day.
Perhaps it's just a coincidence?

The Deco is dual band – 2.5 Ghz and 5 Ghz. Yesterday, I stopped it broadcasting on both – and it is now on just 5 Ghz. And now it seems to be fine. Sonos has been working for most of the day.
Perhaps it’s just a coincidence?

My Plusnet router did that, was fine when I turned off the 5Ghz. Solved it by splitting the 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz and giving them different network names.

2.5 Ghz and 5 Ghz. Yesterday, I stopped it broadcasting on both – and it is now on just 5 Ghz.

^ Not a problem - just a surprise (Know I know about it)
Maybe I now split networks

Yell if you go down this route and I can likely save you a lot of grief, it took me days

This is me. I tried last week (about 6 times) to put the Virgin Hub 3 in modem mode using the IP address webpage. The box does it's usual light display for 5 minutes then the light just goes red and it hangs. It's supposed to turn a fetching magenta apparently.

Is there an easy way to do this without paying a man (or woman)?

Switched our hub 3 several times this past month, fine every time. Perhaps you've a problem?

dedicated £20 little box of awesome for the IoT stuff.

Tell us more?

I've not reconfigured a connected device for years. Much easier to change any new WiFi hub or mesh to the old SSID and password. For bonus points change your mobile hotspot to the same details. Makes sharing it's connection with all your devices out of the home seamless.

Now using the BRSK ONT connected to my ASUS MESH system.

@cougar sorry, I seem to have quoted myself. Ugh.

Anyhow, yes. It is easy.

All I needed to do was unplug the patch cable from the BRSK router and plug it into my router.

First time I did it I was impatient on the DHCP assignment and figured ‘it must be more complicated than this’. Emailed BRSK. Got a fast reply: just unplug our router and plug yours in. I rebooted the ONT box and router on attempt 2. Got an IP address within a couple of minutes - no settings to change, no faff, just replaced their router with mine.

Who actually makes the VM router?

The ISP branded and provided router on my FiLs fibre installation were made by Thomson, and the absolute crappest router i've ever seen.
They wanted to charge him £60 to replace it when it got damaged during some building work.
You can only buy them direct from the manufacturer, with minimum order quantities in the hundreds at about $7-8 a pop. Shipped.
Reliability probably improved once it'd had a brick dropped on it from 3m up.

They offered him an upgrade to their Luxury Dual Band, High Power Router for £4-5 extra, monthly on his contract over 3 years. About $12-13 from the same source as the basic router.

The spare TPLink i had under the stairs has now done 5 odd years without missing a beat

@mert Netgear made hub 3 and 4, I'm not sure who makes hub 5. I moved away from them due to the older hubs having a problem with modem mode and third party routers. There was a coding fault in the modem chipset that they were unable to cure with software which would slow things to a crawl over the course of the day. A 200Mbs connection was buffering HD TV every evening.

I've just done this after switching to VM from BT.
I've got 4 ASUS routers* that are AIMesh compatible and set up the VM box as modem only.
It's been running for about a month and it's pretty stable. VM speed does seem to vary massively though as they (or so I'm told) can restrict bandwidth depending on demand. Sometimes its 360 and sometimes it's 80. However, the wireless seems pretty good and the AIMesh seems to make ease of connectivity around the house with no dead zones.
*3 are in the house and one is down the end of the garden in the shed connected via a powerline - it is still on the same wireless SSID though.

This is me. I tried last week (about 6 times) to put the Virgin Hub 3 in modem mode using the IP address webpage. The box does it’s usual light display for 5 minutes then the light just goes red and it hangs. It’s supposed to turn a fetching magenta apparently.

Caveat, this is the Hub... 4 I think, the one they give to peasants like me who are on cable rather than fibre. The short form is, there are two things I didn't realise.

1) Rebooting takes bastard ages. It takes I'd guess between five and ten minutes to power up. Be patient.

2) The Internet is awash with wrong information. The fact is that in modem mode, one and only one Ethernet port will be live and it will be the one which first responds. Not port #1, not the one at the top or bottom, but the one the router first sees. So if you do what I did and plug in both the downstream router and a laptop for testing, the only time it'll work is if the testing fails. Toss a coin, wait another eight minutes. Hateful prick of a thing.

Tell us more?

This thing.

I reviewed it and everything. It's excellent.

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/customer-reviews/RHIAFDS48CP6U/

The (ahem) lightbulb moment for me was realising: I wanted seamless 2.4/5GHz roaming Wi-Fi throughout the house without having to reconnect to different access points but... IoT cares not a jot. A bulb in the dining room isn't suddenly going to want to connect from the bedroom. Connecting boggo Tesco smart lights to a £200 Asus routerbeast took ages, when it worked at all. Pairing to this little pocket rocket instead was near-instantaneous.

All I needed to do was unplug the patch cable from the BRSK router and plug it into my router.

Ah right, that's handy to know. I was fretting about dual NATting. Ta.

so we suffer the same issues as the OP (fast vm broadband, good enough signal but stuff stuttering/dropping out, (sonos being the worst but the kitchen lights made a UDI before now) but reading the thread and understanding about 60% of it, is there a numpty plug and play way to increase stability for the many many devices in the house?

This thing.

I reviewed it and everything. It’s excellent.

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/customer-reviews/RHIAFDS48CP6U/

The (ahem) lightbulb moment for me was realising: I wanted seamless 2.4/5GHz roaming Wi-Fi throughout the house without having to reconnect to different access points but… IoT cares not a jot. A bulb in the dining room isn’t suddenly going to want to connect from the bedroom. Connecting boggo Tesco smart lights to a £200 Asus routerbeast took ages, when it worked at all. Pairing to this little pocket rocket instead was near-instantaneous.

Thanks!
So where does this connect, in one of the ethernet ports in your mesh system?

Do you have any notable issues with the fact that it means some devices are not connected to the same network as the phone that you might want to control them through? I *think* most of ours should be ok, but things like Sonos are only controllable by a device on the same network.

This thing.

I reviewed it and everything. It’s excellent.

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/customer-reviews/RHIAFDS48CP6U/

The (ahem) lightbulb moment for me was realising: I wanted seamless 2.4/5GHz roaming Wi-Fi throughout the house without having to reconnect to different access points but… IoT cares not a jot. A bulb in the dining room isn’t suddenly going to want to connect from the bedroom. Connecting boggo Tesco smart lights to a £200 Asus routerbeast took ages, when it worked at all. Pairing to this little pocket rocket instead was near-instantaneous.

Thanks!
So where does this connect, in one of the ethernet ports in your mesh system?

Do you have any notable issues with the fact that it means some devices are not connected to the same network as the phone that you might want to control them through? I *think* most of ours should be ok, but things like Sonos are only controllable by a device on the same network.

They generally need to be on the same subnet, you can have multiple ssid’s using the same subnet. I suspect Cougar has simply set the box up as a accesspoint on the same subnet as the main ssid is on.

interesting, but surely only necessary because the Asus router is, despite being pricey, a bit crap at doing it’s job!? FWIW the Unifi UDR I got recently has zero problems with my (many) cheapo WiFi devices, and doesn’t really cost that much more than the £200 Asus + travel router

It’s generally the wifi clients that are a bit carp & force the split of ssid’s, on more prosumer devices like the Omada or unifi & likely Cougar’s asus you can have multiple ssid’s per accesspoint so you could well solve it simply by spinning up a IoT dedicated 2.4GHz ssid.

Connecting boggo Tesco smart lights to a £200 Asus routerbeast took ages, when it worked at all.

I find this odd, the few (very few) cheapy wifi smart devices i have connect to my AIMeshed Asus router beast(s) in seconds. Certainly quicker than i can press keys on the various apps and interfaces.

Though, more than 95% of my smart devices are on zigbee or z-wave networks (smartthings and hue) which now it's starting to go home based instead of server is much slicker, and low powered.

It’s generally the wifi clients that are a bit carp & force the split of ssid’s, on more prosumer devices like the Omada or unifi & likely Cougar’s asus you can have multiple ssid’s per accesspoint so you could well solve it simply by spinning up a IoT dedicated 2.4GHz ssid.

So where does this connect, in one of the ethernet ports in your mesh system?

I have it just a wireless repeater with its own SSID because, as above, it doesn't matter for fixed-in-place devices. My 'mesh system' is a mesh of one mesh-capable device.

Do you have any notable issues with the fact that it means some devices are not connected to the same network as the phone that you might want to control them through?

No. The catch is that you need to hop the phone over to the tinyrouter SSID before pairing. Once paired it's all the same network just a different entry point.

interesting, but surely only necessary because the Asus router is, despite being pricey, a bit crap at doing it’s job!?

You could be right, I honestly don't know. This isn't a normal house, it's two terraces knocked through. What I do know is that even with what I thought was near line-of-sight betwixt router and bulb, setup was a pain in the bollocks and "Alexa, bedroom on" would turn on three of the five bulbs. Shoving a travel router in the same room fixed it. I suspect that the actual issue is that the Wi-Fi component in the Calex bulbs is just nasty, it's what you get when you pay £8 for a bulb rather than Philips' asking price of £47 with lube extra. Regular devices are fine, my desktop sees 250MB of a 350MB connection over at the other end of the building.

I could, and probably should, have deployed an actual mesh. But I tried that initially as documented on STW previously and it didn't end well. And at £20 vs £200 then... 🤷‍♂️

I found if i turned the VM hub to modem mode the ethernet ports on the back stopped working, so I just turn off the WiFi under advacne>wireless (or something) and have my Mesh system plugged into the router, along with various other etherneted things.

I found if i turned the VM hub to modem mode the ethernet ports on the back stopped working, so I just turn off the WiFi under advacne>wireless (or something) and have my Mesh system plugged into the router, along with various other etherneted things.

That’s because it’s a aio modem/fw/router/switch/accesspoint & when you enable modem mode it’s a modem.

We have a VM Router (I think it is a 3, but it is hidden away at the moment.) I have a couple of devices hard wired to it in addition to a link to a mesh network (Orbi in my case). I've left it in Router mode, but the Orbi has a different subnet, so no issues with two DHCP servers. I did turn of the VM Wifi to reduce the amount of networks around the house. Seems to work for me!

Update - I have had to switch to 2.4 Ghz only through the TP Link Deco - because neither printer recognises 5 Ghz!

so we suffer the same issues as the OP (fast vm broadband, good enough signal but stuff stuttering/dropping out, (sonos being the worst but the kitchen lights made a UDI before now) but reading the thread and understanding about 60% of it, is there a numpty plug and play way to increase stability for the many many devices in the house?

You're doing well at 60%!
So...
Looks like I need a new router
I should set the ID name and password to the same as my current to avoid having to reconnect everything
Ideally I want 2.4 & 5GHz (most of my bulbs etc. Are 2.4 only) or just 2.4

How easy (or not) is it turn the hub into WiFi mode?
What (not too expensive) hub is recommended? (I don't think I need an expensive mesh system due to the construction of my house, I also have a few plug in TP link boosters kicking about if need)

How easy (or not) is it turn the hub into WiFi mode?

modem mode? https://www.virginmedia.com/help/broadband/reboot-or-reset-hub

I’d suggest an ASUS RT-AC86U just because when you do want to MESH it up it’s easy to add another unit or two. There are cheaper routers that will do the same WiFi and routing job though.

Having your router in an open space, fairly central to your WiFi gadgets can be helpful. They don’t perform as well from inside thick-doored cupboards and brick corners.

Edit. You’ll want both 2.4GHz and 5GHz as while the range is worse, the speed is better with 5GHz than 2.4GHz. And if most of your devices are 2.4GHz the 5GHz ones can use the whole of the 5GHz bandwidth.

Edit edit. These TP-link boosters, they’re not WiFi boosters are they? They’ll not do great things for performance. Those mains-wire boosters are probably OK. if you can set them to the same SSID as your main network I suppose they’ll act as access points?

The numpty way would be a Google or nest WiFi with multiple nodes. Very simple to setup and just works. If you can get the vm router into modem mode that's better but not essential (turn the WiFi off on it if you don't use modem mode). Forget range extenders, they are a sticky plaster.

if you can set them to the same SSID as your main network I suppose they’ll act as access points?

Not properly as there is no handoff between them. It's a bit of a bodge.

Not properly as there is no handoff between them. It’s a bit of a bodge.

What hand off are you expecting them to have?

Generally wifi roaming is heavily client controlled.

If a accesspoint has the same ssid/pw combination devices can move from ap to ap as signal strength changes, but it’s the client that generally manage this.

There is some management in newer wifi6 platforms which allow accesspoints to set minimum signal strength thresholds that doesn’t force a client to use another node it simply prevents it hanging onto a node with poor signal strength.

Would this work?

NETGEAR Wireless Access Point (WAX204) - WiFi 6 Dual-Band AX1800 Speed | 4 x 1G Ethernet Ports | 802.11ax | WPA3 Security | Create up to 3 Separate Wireless Networks Linky

Claims to support up to 64 client devices. I assume this means anything that's connected to the WiFi? I'm running at about 40 I think. I don't think I need to go full mesh. My biggest bugbears are the TV streaming using Chromecast (next room though stud wall) and my office connection on Teams (directly above).

Or.... Do I wait for Black Friday and get a Google Nest WiFi so I could add to it in the future if ever required?

Captmorgan hits the nail on the head about handoff (well, roaming in reality.

Ive got a unifi setup hanging off the back of VM. Its vastly better but probably overkill.

For a more appropriate consumer setup, the amplifi units are pretty good, as are the tplink mesh networking. Its worth remembering that wired backhaul is always a better solution than mesh, its just mesh is SO convenient.

Its worth remembering that wired backhaul is always a better solution than mesh, its just mesh is SO convenient.

This thread has reminded me that the previous occupants of this house have actually wired ethernet in exactly the right places for me to do a wired backhaul between my TP Link Deco units, would just need to do a bit of rearranging with the Hue box/get some sort of switch. This may escalate.

Dream Router was installed yesterday. Some observations:

Wifi6 is good and we need a hardwired access point in one bedroom to provide patio browsing and cover the coffee machine smart plug (espresso machine is good to go when I get up, no hanging around).

The set-up was slightly marred by Zen doing things slowly (there have been an national fault that cleared whilst connection was ongoing).

Can recommend Draytech modems for BT supplied FTTC, zero config just daisy chain it and the Router and log in via console settings only.

Some of the fine tuning settings on the console are a little hidden. To change DNS server one needs to click on the WAN entry to reveal all.

The router was reasonably cheap too at £250-ish and domestic management aren't unhappy to have it in the hallway on a console table.

Today is fire up the NAS and the associated pi-hole (some DNS fiddling required)

Some of the fine tuning settings on the console are a little hidden. To change DNS server one needs to click on the WAN entry to reveal all.

This may escalate.

Nah, I just got three, 4 port switches (living room/office/buy two get one free!) and an 8 port for the cubby (NAS/printers).

Took longer to sort out new patch cables than to get the switches in and working.

they seem to change the layout of the menus etc fairly often,

They do that. The year old tutorial has one way of setting a fixed route but the pi-hole needs a second fixed route for a different IP which is causing some head scratching.

One final observation when hard-wiring between devices, don't use a cheap crimping tool! 6 plugs were wasted as the pins were not making contact with the conductors. (The Screwfix cat6 cable is twisted solid copper not aluminium with a plated outer).

Reason #976 why I keep telling people to stick with CAT5e.

don’t use a cheap crimping tool!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/VDV226-110-Pass-Thru-Modular-Crimper-Yellow/dp/B076MGPQZQ/ref=asc_df_B076MGPQZQ/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309816003291&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8609797732255537962&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007226&hvtargid=pla-521136788062&psc=1

why I keep telling people to stick with CAT5e.

The option of cat5e wasn't available in shorter reel lengths when I wanted to buy, 305m would have been too much and very expensive.

Ok. Update for those interested. I managed to get a Google Nest WiFi and point for £63 from Argos (crazy BF price, cheaper than just the Router direct from Google), so I now also have a basic mesh system. Setting the Router to modem mode was pretty easy - but finding the correct port to plug the ethernet cable in was pot luck (can see how this has caught people out, thanks for the heads up on Cougar). The system was pretty easy to set up though as I'm used to Google Home. I ended up using the same SSID and password so all my devices connected automatically (thanks again for the advice on here)
The difference is massive. Teams just works perfectly. All devices are connected.
I Chromecast in UHD earlier and it worked flawlessly (it was hit and miss before and would buffer all the time despite 100+ meg).
I should have upgraded ages ago. So for anyone else that is struggling, ditch the standard Router, you won't regret it👍