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Hi, We are selling our house and agreed to fund an electrical safety check (EICR) on our house as a result of not being able to find original documents for new consumer unit etc. It has a C2 observation for the surge protection not being fitted according to manufcturers recomendations. The tester is saying that we need a different type of surge protection. The consumer unit is only 4 years old and is all Hager. I have a firend who is an industrial spark and he cant see anything wrong with the current setup. I was just after other peoples view before I go back to the company that has done it to question why it needs to be replaced. There report states it is working fine. But they want to come back to replace it with Hager SPD kit (HGVME02SPD). Does anybody know how this differs from the one currently fitted.
Well you have got exposed conductors with the crimps and the terminals are all in the wrong positions.
Never fitted a Hager one but I can’t imagine a company like that in the installation instructions say lash it round in a bit of 2.5 twin and stick some fork crimps on it.
It doesn’t look great
K +1, and both the type and dimension of cable seem odd for the main switch, what's connected to that and what's the total load? In answer to your original question - no idea, sorry.
We are selling our house and agreed to fund
Well that was your first mistake. What if throws up a load of problems, have you agreed to pay to resolve those?
Contrary to what the others have said, I cant see anything wrong with it, please let me know what you see that I cant. Those forked crimps are those supplied by Hager (see link to ebay item), and the cable size is fine - it can be a smaller cable than the incoming cables as the fault duration is so short there is little chance of the cable overheating. Many other CUs have the same arrangement, others have the SPD fed via a circuit breaker. Hager do it that way. Its a Type 2, so OK for most installs, you may need a Type 1 IF your earthing is a TT system.
At the worst when inspecting, it should be a C3 recommendation to improve (it isnt a safety issue), but, unless yours is a TT system, what you have is fine, and I’d be asking for clear wording on why it has been merited a C2, and detail the regulation it is not conforming to.
K +1, and both the type and dimension of cable seem odd for the main switch, what's connected to that and what's the total load? In answer to your original question - no idea, sorry.
The cables can be as small as 1.5mm.sq.
That CU comes with the SPD fitted, so unless part has been "borrowed" for another job, it should be ok
10 Way High Integrity 100A Main Switch 2*100A 30mA Type A RCCB With Factory Fitted SPD Size 6 VML910CUSPDRK
alanl+1
Op asked the difference and what might be the reason for reccomeded change, it wasn't asked if it functions as it has been stated that it does.
The device isn't one that the has been designed to fit that board. Yes it is functional but the layout of the terminals is inconsistent with the rest of the board with unnecessary cables and exposed conductors as mentioned. Look at the quoted HGVME02SPD and you will see it is designed to fit.
The device isn't one that the has been designed to fit that board. Yes it is functional but the layout of the terminals is inconsistent with the rest of the board with unnecessary cables and exposed conductors as mentioned. Look at the quoted HGVME02SPD and you will see it is designed to fit correctly.
A quick look at blurred online images of the CU and I think that the part numbers for the SPD are correct, OP, have a hunt around for a better image (my link isn't working for some reason)
I do agree that the crimps aren't to Hager's standards though 🙂
The board is clearly a lazy and careless install but doesn’t merit the C2 for the SPD. I’m surprised that the state of the board wasn’t commented on just from a neatness perspective, though.
The DIY-style setup is how Hager boards come from the factory- search for the part number (VML910CUSPDRK) and you’ll see some stock photos.
A different but related question- why would you fit surge protection? My install is 10 years old and doesn’t have it. Is it a recent requirement or advisable in certain situations/locations/parts of country?
Yup, my error, it's only going to the surge protection.
A different but related question- why would you fit surge protection?
There have been a lot of Electricity Network problems where either a cable in the street has decayed, or the substation has failed in some way. This has caused a rather high cost for the Electriciy Providers, who have to compensate the people who have been affected. What happens is that one phase of the electric fails, or the neutral fails. Most street supplies originate from a three phase transformer. If one phase or the neutral fails (broken cable/damage to the transformer etc), its possible that 400+ volts will come down your line and zap any electronic items. Many items are not bothered by the excess voltage, but some are ruined by the over-voltage surge.
The IET (electrical overseeing body) in their wisdom thought it should be the Customer who needed to protect themselves from the Electric Distributors faults, so they brought in Regulations that said that all new Installations should have appropriate surge protection, which may be good enough to protect the electronic equipment in a house. There used to be a get out where you could say the cost of the electronic equipment is so low that fitting a Surge protection device would not be financially viable. The price of SPDs has since come down, so they are pretty much compulsory for new installs, consumer unit replacements etc. It isnt a safety issue. They do not make the installation safer (well, maybe for the few seconds if there is a fault on the Network, but, that is such a small insignificant risk, it can be ignored), they are fitted as financial insurance, in that they cost £30ish, but a new TV could be £500.
Is it worth fitting one? Possibly. You can buy them as a separate box to fit at the side of your existing consumer unit, total cost would be around £50-60 for the parts. If you have electronic equipment (who doesnt?) then it could be a good idea to fit it. But, they do not protect against lightning strikes and other such massive surges. Have I got one fitted - yes. Would I be bothered if I didnt have one - not really.
You say surge protectors won't protect against lightening but locally (where we have a lot of lightening strikes) that's the main reason they're fitted. I thought surge protection was mainly to protect from lightening strikes hitting the power supply grid. That creates power surges which can damage appliances but more importantly cause damage to them that causes an electrical fire. Before they became a common fitment I bought socket blocks with surge protection; after an electrical storm that knocked out our power suppy we were the only people in the building with working computers, Tvs etc when the power came back on.
Surely the main 100a breaker on your fuse box *is* the surge protector? then you have a bunch of smaller breakers 'downstream' of that for your lights, plug sockets etc, with more sensitive breakers, 32a, 20a etc??
No to both lightning and the main fuse/breaker. This is an over-voltage surge. The circuit breakers/fuse protect against overcurrent, they arent bothered if it is 230v or 750v, they’ll happily sit all day on 1000volts so long as their current limit isnt reached.
The typical SPDs fitted in domestic properties are Type 2, and only give surge protection up to a set voltage, CBA searching what that is, but there is no way they can protect against a lightning strike. They may help if the lightning strike was 5 miles away, but would be totally useless if it happened on your street. For lightning protection you need a minimum protection of Type 1, these are not typically on the shelf in Wholesalers, they , mostly, have to be ordered in, as they are not fitted much, though TBH, it would be a good idea to fit them if you are worried by surges. Note there are numerous surge limits available, the cost of the SPD usually points to how good, and how protective they are, all will meet the agreed (BS?) standards, some exceed it by a long way.
For full protection, you’d have a Type 1 at the origin of the install (near the meter, or, where the power enters the building). You then have a Type 2 at the consumer unit, for domestic properties, this will usually suffice for the whole install, then, at the socket outlet you have a Type 3 to protect individual items. Note that a SPD is recommended every 10 metres. So one for a typical house is usually fine, but, if you have an outhouse a fair way off, then that will not be fully protected by a single SPD at the source, so you need another one closer to the far off circuits.
The circuit breakers/fuse protect against overcurrent, they arent bothered if it is 230v or 750v, they’ll happily sit all day on 1000volts so long as their current limit isnt reached.
Yes but that assumes the overcurrent is coming from a fault at the device. If the voltage surge comes from the mains end it might not trip the breaker (which as you say doesn't respond to voltage) but the higher voltage the device is exposed to generates a current high enough in the device to overheat it and start a fire. Anyhow EDF cite surge protection as protection against fires caused by lightning induced overvoltage in devices, I've just checked.
Nothing to add on the consumer unit but a thumbs up for having Vida/Dice!
Modern (read last 50+ years) electric trains have surgery arrestors on the input supply (nominal 25kv). Exactly for lightning strikes on the fixed power supply zapping the vehicle and stuffing up the transformer or anything downstream.
Granted the vehicle is worth a whole lot more than the average flat screen TV.
Anyhow EDF cite surge protection as protection against fires caused by lightning induced overvoltage in devices, I've just checked.
"Surge" (without resorting to French Llama puns) means different things to different industries. In this context we're talking about a surge lasting a tiny fraction of one second but which can massively spike voltage.
In the UK generation industry comparatively small surges and sags (undervoltage) last a minimum of several cycles while sags can overheat devices
I'd be interested to see the stats on domestic fires caused by electrical surges, I suspect that most sensitive equipment (TVs, etc) will blow a small onboard fuse. I can't find a more recent UK report,
UK: Electricity is a major cause of accidental fires in UK homes – over 20,000 each year.
France: According to insurance report statistics collected by government ministries MEEDDM and ONSE, every year in France firefighters are called to approximately 200,000 household fires. Of these, one quarter are caused by electrical sources. This represents a household fire reported every two minutes and an electrical fire every 8 minutes! https://blog.se.com/infrastructure-and-grid/power-management-metering-monitoring-power-quality/2018/06/26/countries-pay-huge-costs-in-life-and-money-for-electrical-fires/
One mate had his house burn to the ground due an electrical fire which started at the consumer unit. The insurers rebuilt the house and months later it burned down again due to a spot light in the cieling, the isurers rebuilt again and he has his fingers crossed. Another friend (teacher of electrics and electronics) did an off-grid setup for his girlfriend with solar panels and a wall off batteries. One day they smelt smoke and found the breaker box on fire. He cut the PV panel cable (brave man), put the fire out and hunted for the cause. The breaker supposed to protect the panels had caught fire. So that's two out of three of these anedotal fires caused by the consumer unit/protection devices designed to prevent injury and fire. Just to make you all feel safe. 😉
The breaker supposed to protect the panels had caught fire. So that's two out of three of these anedotal fires caused by the consumer unit/protection devices designed to prevent injury and fire. Just to make you all feel safe. 😉
Fires like this are almost invariably caused by loose connections and have nothing to do with the type of protection device fitted. Overtightening can be as bad as under tightening in this respect.
I'm a bit surprised and annoying that AFDDs haven't followed the general price point of RCBOs. Having said that David Savery hasn't got much faith in them.