[Closed] History degree? educate me

"What sort of bubble are London/uni people living in?"

If she was from Cambridge then why are you refering to 'London people'?

As for history degrees I couldn't agree more, load of old twaddle 😉 .

She's clearly deluded but don't lump all students/grads/Londoners in the same boat!

Well if she's got a good degree from Cambridge then she's obviously pretty bright and probably quite hard working and organised. A lot of employers would like those qualities I would think - if they were hiring, which perhaps they are not in a recession.

I agree she's got no right to expect a well paid, guaranteed job. However the fact she's studied history is of no consequence. She's probably very bright and has worked hard for her degree.

It'll be a sad day if the "you should only study subjects relevant to the world of business" types get their way. There's far more to education than learning to use the words "synergy" and "going forward" ten times in every sentence in some dreary meeting about monthly sales figures.

You're right, she should do an NVQ in Specifics Management...that would make her infinitely more employable. 😀

What has history taught her about the employment prospects of History graduates?

Ive got a Degree in Hard Knocks and,Common Sence, strangeley a lot of students fail to gain.

Cambribge you say, she could become a spy.

However the fact she's studied history is of no consequence

Yes it is. If she'd studied computer science, or engineering or something similar she'd have no problem getting a job.

I've got a degree in history, and I agree with kennyp - while it may not be directly relevant to many jobs, it gives you a good broad understanding of the world, and skills like research and critical analysis of evidence, as well as good writing ability are surely useful in many jobs.

That said, I've never done anything related to it as a job, and went back to uni to get a music degree (which is the area I now work in). But I certainly don't regret my history degree.

I don't know about when you were at school, but when I went to school we were kind of lead to believe that if you went to a good uni and got a good degree, it almost didn't matter what subject it was in - you would end up with a decent job. This might have been true when my teachers were growing up, but it's not now that every man and his dog has a degree.

It's a shame some of our political leaders weren't better aquainted with the history of, say, Afghanistan and Iraq, or of financial bubbles and their inevitable end... but no, you're right, history is pointless.

At O level, history was merely a case of remembering lots of information, rather than being expected to analyse or apply anything. I'm assuming a history degree is something more than this? I mean, I'm sure while there are lots of places who would find someone with a good memory a useful asset, I've met lots of thick people with good memorys who do a good impression of someone who is intelligent.

At O level, history was merely a case of remembering lots of information, rather than being expected to analyse or apply anything

You must be pretty old then, I did my History O-level in 1985 and it was very much about analysis and very much not about remembering dates.

History is all about analysing data sources now a days. Even at GCSE, there is very little need to know much history but a great need to deal with sources and analyse them.

Which has its good and bad points. I suppose as said learning to critically analyse sources is probably more useful in the long term particularly if your job has nothing to do with the past.

But frankly I enjoy learning a little bit of history from lots of different time periods rather than analysing to death the effect the seed drill had on villages in rural wiltshire in the 1700s.

University teaches you so much more than the subject studied, a thing that modern employers don't seem to 'get'.

Its symptomatic of the way society seems to be going. School children are referred to as students. Until they go to Uni they are PUPILS. My fiancee completed an NVQ 4 in Childcare Development with work in 9 months or rather 'graduated', cap and gown and everything!.. I mean seriously come on! She holds Childcare Professional status she has a 'profession'. Which years ago was just 'looking after children'!

A degree is sadly (considering their cost) not enough anymore.

You'd be amazed at how many hedge fund managers and venture capital bosses have history as their first degree (typically from oxbridge). As they tend to hire in their own image, I get the impression having worked in this field that they do not look disfavourably on history as a degree (one once told me that his main criteria to begin with was had he heard of the university, and if he hadn't (and in fairness he probably only knew about ten), the application went in the bin.
But it's getting increasingly hard to get high-paid jobs in town now straight out with a humanities/social science degree. Best to have a more specific quantitative background (economics, ppe). From the people I knew who studied history at oxbridge, many chose to go into law, another two years at uni, or took part-time on the job accountancy qualifications with an eye on climbing the corporate ladder through the finance division.

It could be worse - she could have an Archaeology degree.
My old house mate studied history and he now makes computer games.

University teaches you so much more than the subject studied, a thing that modern employers don't seem to 'get'.

Kennp...do nt doubt the young lady is very clever, but having witnessed many a graduate saunter through our works there are different levels. It was more her misguided belief that she is so good she should be getting megabucks for whatever it is she wants to do and that employers should jump at the chance to employ her and that employers are just out to exploit the "worker,graduates"
Welcome to he new "real world"
Walk before run come to mind

[i]You must be pretty old then, I did my History O-level in 1985[/i]

I'm still young enough to beat most people on here in a race but yes, I'm older than you.

Turned out the degree was not related to the job,

To me its about the level attained and the abilities a degree indicates. All degrees cannot relate to the job. Its the reason we are seeing 'joke shop' degrees like 'Golf Course Management' etc.

What you refer to is about experience.

"It was more her misguided belief that she is so good she should be getting megabucks for whatever it is she wants to do and that employers should jump at the chance to employ her and that employers are just out to exploit the "worker,graduates"
I dare say you probably work for a proper company, which has to make a profit, protect the downside, and employ commonsense, effective and generally nice people. But for the banks in particular, the arrogant "im the centre of the world" mindset is essential - this is how the major banks have acted (and continue to act) after all. Actual intelligence can actually be a hindrance - you start asking those damn silly questions like, will this person with no job and no prospects be able to pay back this loan? Better to be thick as a plank with the arrogance of Ceasar. Unfortunately having bailed out the banks, I think the young lady's presumption and arrogance sets her up very nicely for a career in high-finance.
Sorry for the ex-banker (by choice) rant.

[i]I think the young lady's presumption and arrogance sets her up very nicely for a career in high-finance.[/i]

Or presenting a third rate show where people randomly open boxes and suggest there is some kind of skill involved.

I'm currently doing a history degree. Close reading of and critical analysis of multiple sources of data would be the obvious transferable skills. As would the proven ability to apply yourself to serious hard work. All of the direct skills should be obvious.

@

[i]Dr_Bakes - Member
"What sort of bubble are London/uni people living in?"

If she was from Cambridge then why are you refering to 'London people'?

As for history degrees I couldn't agree more, load of old twaddle .[/i]

You were so hoping to get a rise out of me on this one right?!

I have a history degree. Actually, I have two of them. And now I churn out massed ranks of students with history degrees who leave Oxford year on year. To be honest, they seem to do OK out of it: a lot of them will take law conversion courses and end up at the bar or in a city law firm. The ones with a political conscience seem to end up in the civil service or a think tank. The ones with a social conscience go into teaching or NGOs. I don't know how far we can claim any credit for this, but they leave with the ability to think critically, analyze large amounts of material, work independently and in small groups and to develop independent and original arguments. The subject matter might be 'twaddle', but in terms of skills and employability I think we do pretty well.

In this case it may well be that she's been told that she's gifted or incredibly intelligent and built up to believe that she's a cut above the rest by parents, teachers, lecturers etc etc.

If she doesn't know any better and has had no experience of the real world then she can be forgiven her gaffs.

Thankfully in some respects a degree these days doesn't guarantee a specific starting salary though. I think that the drive to get so many people people into Uni was misguided by the Government and it has devalued Degrees as a result. They've achieved the quantity but at the cost of quality.

Degree snobbery takes many forms though. I once had an employer tell me in all seriousness that I had missed out on valuable life experiences by not staying at Uni.

It didn't even warrant a response from me, but I did wonder what a sheltered and blinkered upbringing the guy must have had;-)

I've got two Architecture degrees (Undergrad and Postgraduate) and openly admit that I am buggered for the time being, I recognise that am not owed anything, but I resent what was a promising career going down the drain because of other peoples excesses. If you come out with a degree that isn't job specific, particularly in humanities, language, social sciences, you will find yourself grouped in with the dross who should never have gone to university in the first place. Gaah!

All of the direct skills should be obvious.

Should be, yeah, in reality they very often aren't to employers.

I am currently doing a course in H&S Management(NVQ level 3/4 i think) as I was given the additional role as H&S manager (thought I'd better be at least qualified to do it)! I have been 'reigned in' by the lecturer as apparently in my 'homework' I go into far too much detail. The skills and level I attained at degree are just not required.

I can also detect that the lecturer is spouting fundamental untruths as my degree gave me a better base knowledge of the law (he has not done a degree). What concerns me is this disinformation is being disseminated to 20 odd other people who do not question whether he is right or wrong and apply this disinformation in their own workplaces, its self perpetuating. Hence (in my particular example) you get jobsworths 'banning' conkers in schools etc etc etc

[i]It was more her misguided belief that she is so good she should be getting megabucks for whatever it is she wants to do and that employers should jump at the chance to employ her and that employers are just out to exploit the "worker,graduates"[/i]

I pretty much agree with you there, even if I didn't come across that way. I was more trying to say that she shouldn't be criticised for studying history. If I could roll back time I'd do a degree in a subject I was interested in rather than the one I did do. The reality is that once you are in a job for a few years the subject of your degree (apart from maybe medicine and the like) is of no real importance.

@ Mattie_H - Member

"You were so hoping to get a rise out of me on this one right?!"

Right!

@ Dr_Bakes

It worked though didn't it?!

I've got two Architecture degrees (Undergrad and Postgraduate) and openly admit that I am buggered for the time being, I recognise that am not owed anything, but I resent what was a promising career going down the drain because of other peoples excesses

I would have thought architects were one of the main beneficiaries of the property bubble binge, hardly surprising they're one of the ones with the hangover. Other people's excesses (i.e., too much lending) created the ugly apartment blocks that architects spent most of the 00s inflicting on our city centres.

History - there's no future in it

As a qualified Glacial Geomorphologist and an employer I have 2 points

1. there was no work for Glacial Geomorpholigists when I graduated (we hadn't spotted the icecaps had started to bugger off - well, when I say we, I mean you - we actually sat on them and saw them disappearing but no one cared!) and,

2. as an employer I made the enormous error of employing a highly qualified languages grad straight from Uni, only after 3 months did I truly understand just how self important and arrogant graduates can be before some poor employer has had the job of knocking the edges of the jumped up little sods.

At this point I would like to unreservedly apologise to the AP Moller group who had the task of knocking the edges off me after I graduated, you are better people than you will ever know!!

[i]The reality is that once you are in a job for a few years the subject of your degree (apart from maybe medicine and the like) is of no real importance. [/i]

It certainly explains why there's so many useless sods in my profession. Having a degree in IT certainly doesn't make someone good at the job (in IT) but at least it proves a reasonable understanding of some of the more basic concepts.

I have a Physics degree and don't see any vacancies for a brand new graduate. In November opportunities open for Medical Physics which I'll be looking into, but until then I'll do anything. Interview next week for temporary work as technical author.

A history degree did f*** all for me so I started my own business 25 years ago.

O Level in '85 huh...... a year after I graduated having taken time out in between school and uni. Does that make me an old git?i

Blimey we come across as a bunch of miserable old basterds

Everyone seems to be in some kind of a state of shock that a 21 (TWENTY ONE) year old has a sheltered and not necessarily realistic view of the world.

When my brother joined IBM on the Graduate Entry Scheme he was the only one out of intake of 30 with a degree that had any relevance to computing.

Yes it is. If she'd studied computer science, or engineering or something similar she'd have no problem getting a job.

A job, yup. A job in what they would like, with wages they'd accept - not so sure. Even eng is pretty tight at the moment, hence uni intake is pretty large this year for postgrad.

I can also detect that the lecturer is spouting fundamental untruths as my degree gave me a better base knowledge of the law (he has not done a degree). What concerns me is this disinformation is being disseminated to 20 odd other people who do not question whether he is right or wrong and apply this disinformation in their own workplaces, its self perpetuating. Hence (in my particular example) you get jobsworths 'banning' conkers in schools etc etc etc

Jackson Pollock - Its strange you should say this as I did a NEBOSH course as part of my resettlement training when I left the RAF and we on the course all experienced this same issue with the instructor. All of us on the course had performed in various H&S roles during our careers and had a fairly good practical understanding of the law relevant to our roles, yet the instructor constantly made errors which we easily picked up and corrected him on, such as confusion (on his part) with criminal law, torts etc.

I don't suppose for one minute the teaching of H&S attracts the best quality of teaching staff but some of the basics H&S teaching staff have problems with seem quite ridiculous and as you say, they are considered the 'authority' on such issues.

The only hope is that other H&S qualifications have as rigious examination/marking processes as the NEBOSH course and such wrong information can be caught that way, but its not much of a comfort to those who may have paid a great deal to sit the exam.

I think blaming architects for the finance led property bubble seems a tad harsh. Anyway I think you'll find that clients have a substantial input into the "appearance" of buildings. The myth of the crazy architect creating things is just that really, much of my day is taken up with excel spreadsheets now and talking about contractual liability and attempting to educate recently graduated staff about how what they do has actual, real (what a concept) effects on other things. Oh, and the rest of the time is talking to Civils engineers who think that we draw pretty pictures when they do all the real work 😕

Bimbler - Blimey we come across as a bunch of miserable old basterds

I am "a miserable old basterd" so that would seem logical.

Bimbler - Everyone seems to be in some kind of a state of shock that a 21 (TWENTY ONE) year old has a sheltered and not necessarily realistic view of the world.

But it is their blindingly unswerving certainty that they, and only they, have the right answer/method/opinion on everything, all the time and without any ability to understand that there just may be another way to look at/undertake and complete a task - that is assuming the task in question is sufficiently intellectually rewarding and not something that could be done by any other plebian in the building without a brain the size of a planet.

Now look you've made me rant - breathe, calm, go make camomile tea...

But it is their blindingly unswerving certainty that they, and only they, have the right answer/method/opinion on everything, all the time and without any ability to understand that there just may be another way to look at/undertake and complete a task

Young people in think they know everything SHOCKA.

[img] [/img]

I feel obliged to level the balance slightly.

I'm young and graduated in 2005 with a non-vocational degree from a 'proper' uni. I'm currently poorly paid for a graduate but am aware that I'm learning my trade and (slowly) working my way up the ladder. I am not a know-it-all but neither am I afraid to ask "have you thought about doing it this way?". My friends are similar and none of us are like the person who wrote the original article.

It seems that Oxbridge produces people who are, and always have, excelled in academia and are used to being good at things first time. They don't produce people well fitted for the world of [i]actual[/i] work.

Bimbler - Young people in think they know everything SHOCKA.

No, they don't think they know everything.
They know they know everything!

"It seems that Oxbridge produces people who are, and always have, excelled in academia and are used to being good at things first time. They don't produce people well fitted for the world of actual work."

A sweeping generalisation, don't you think? I don't think that excelling academically precludes you from suitability to the world of work...

They don't produce people well fitted for the world of actual work.

Er, on the basis of your previous statements about not being a know-it-all youngster, you have just undone yourself, old boy.

How is the petard anyway?

"I am wisest because I know I know nothing. Also, I can smell bullsh1t"

Half of that is Socrates, half of it is me. I'll leave you to work out which is which.

I agree my quote was indeed a sweeping generalisation and that a fair few Oxbridge graduates function normally and many even excel. There seems to be a larger proportion than from other establishments who believe the world owes them a living though.

There seems to be a larger proportion than from other establishments who believe the world owes them a living though

Is this based on any discernible sense of fact, or just a hopeless peddling of an opinion limited only by your unwillingness to acknowledge you're digging the hole faster and deeper?

😀

"There seems to be a larger proportion than from other establishments who believe the world owes them a living though. "

I know lots of Oxbridge graduates, none of whom think the world owes them a living, and all of whom are very successful in the world of work.

So who are you referring to?

sootyandjim - Phew, not just me then! It is a NEBOSH accredited course.

My degree has enabled me to critically analyze the information and question its reliability. Not just accept.

I was told the other day by a Sky 'Engineer' (fitter at best)! That it was illegal for him to go up onto my roof alone to get to the dish! No doubt he had his certificate to 'qualify' him to make these assertions. As a result I now have two satellite dishes attached to my house because he wouldn't go onto the roof to fix the old one!

What it seems is happening to me is the general 'dumbing down' of academia and qualifications. Employers are increasingly disregarding the highly useful skills honed through doing a degree, in favour of a certificate that says somebody can carry out a specific task.

I'm going to wade in here after only reasing tow posts in a true STW stylee.

There are two three sorts of graduate jobs. There are those where your degree is essential to the job. Things like industrial research for pharma companies, or engineering. There is another sort where they really don't care what degree you got as long as it demonstrates skills you have and that your able to learn hard things. FOr example, any of the big four will employ you if you pass their entrance criteria. HAving an accountacy degree doesn't help much as you still need to pass your exams to become chartered. My GF works for a big IT company on a very good wage, studied biochemistry. I know countless numbers of people who do a job not at all related to their degree.

The third type of job is those that didn't require a degree at all.

Having a 1st from cambridge in history and a good broad skill set would get you into a lot of company graduate schemes with a times top 100 employer (GSK, Big 4, BT, Tesco, Accenture, IBM etc. etc.) but, half of these have restricted the intake which is why she swill be struggling.

degress have become devalued as a result of everyone going to university.

universities have become another money making tool. they're not worried how many grads they churn out; only that their intake, and consequencly their bank accounts, remain high.

interesting thing that this guy says regarding education and inparticular about degrees....

[url= http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html ]20 minutes of your time[/url]

Sorry Alpin that's just nonsense. [u]Undergraduate[/u] teaching of GB and EU students is a loss-maker for Universities: the tuition fees they're able to charge are nowhere near the full economic cost of the teaching students are provided with. This is why they're all forced to cross-subsidize--by increasingly looking to get non-EU students onto expensive masters level courses. If you want to be cynical, that's where you should be looking.

I haven't read the whole thread, but going by what the OP says, she [i]certainly[/i] has my sympathy.

If a kid is told that to do well in life they must work hard at school go to a good university and get a degree, then I can completely understand if after doing all that, they are totally pissed off when they find that they can't get a job.

[i]"She seems to want the "government" to guarantee all(Cambridge?)uni graduates a job rather than be left to market forces"[/i]

Yep, me too ......... I totally agree with her. What a ****ing waste of talent. And if "market forces" can't find a way in which she can make a useful contribution to society based on her talents and skills, then it clearly shows how leaving everything to "market forces" is a really shite idea.

Furthermore, as a taxpayer I resent all that money being invested on her education, only for it to be pissed down the drain because "market forces" can't find anything useful to do with her talents - so she's not the only one who's angry.

BTW Trekster - I assume that your resentment in her expecting to find a job, and your "market forces fetish" is based on you not having a Cambridge degree ?

And oh yeah, there's nothing wrong with studying history - in fact it's a crying shame more people don't know more about history (I got grade 4 CSE history btw) Indeed some people don't even know what happened 20 years ago ffs. And yes, a history background can be useful in many jobs - broadcasting, media, research, publishing, education, etc. Although as others have mentioned, just having a degree is something which clearly needs application and dedication, suggests that she has useful talents.
imho

well said ernie_lynch!

If a kid is told that to do well in life they must work hard at school go to a good university and get a degree, then I can completely understand if after doing all that, they are totally pissed off when they find that they can't get a job.

Absolutely, couldn't agree more 🙂