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do you find what he said on newsnight somewhat inflammatory?
to me he comes across as a bit out of touch.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517 ]David Starkey: "whites have become blacks"[/url]
I don't think he was implying that black people are somehow worse citizens but was referring to the differeing cultures that white and black people have and how some white people are taking on a more black culture.
To me he comes across as someone deliberately courting controversy - i.e. same as he usually does. After all, how many UK historians can you name off the top of your head?
Reminds me of some folk on this forum actually....
Didn't see it and the video link not working on the BBC site so only read the brief summary.
If he is saying that whites are rioting because they are acting more like blacks then yes he is being racist.
If he is saying that the black american gangster rap culture that has been so used by the media/marketing et al, and has been embraced by white youths as something to aspire to, has some blame in a bling is everything, look after yourself, sod everyone else culture - he may have a valid point.
He's clumsy and ignorant on this matter, and thus shouldn't be talking about this sort of thing on national TV. Why did the producers think an expert on Henry VIII could talk expertly on the socio-economic conditions in inner cities? He cited working on Jamie Oliver's school programme as his experience in this area ffs. Unless they knew Starkey revels in controversy and wanted to increase their viewing figures...
druidh - Member
After all, how many UK historians can you name off the top of your head?
I really hope I could win that game...
You're spot on though: media don whose reputation is based on being controversial backs himself into a corner and ends up going way too far.
I saw him on newsnight, and he was little else than other than a racist. He totally discredited any point he was trying to make. General gist of it was whites who become black riot, kill and steal, and blacks that become white are OK.
just an intellectual being racist whilst trying to dress it up as as some sort of factula analysis. I think it is hard to cire Enoch Poweel's rivers of blood speech and not sound racist tbh.
The bit about chavs becoming "black" but articulate black people becoming "white" was rather distatesful. It certainly sounds like he thinks one culture is superior to another and that is his and not the Blacks and that these words mean good and bad, us and them, superor , inferior etc.
Bit evasive in his knowledge of hip hop and rap mind - does not strike me as an expert in black culture or what it is like to be poor and black in London tbh.
If he is saying that the black american gangster rap culture that has been so used by the media/marketing et al, and has been embraced by white youths as something to aspire to, has some blame in a bling is everything, look after yourself, sod everyone else culture - he may have a valid point.
Is this not just the message of capitalism- why not cite footballers greed and bling? The rolling stones as tax exiles? MP's fiddling expenses for personal gain? Bankers and personal responsibility? etc Black culture is hardly the only method for conveying consumerism and wealth above morality in our culture. I see little reason why it alone should take the blame.
Is he wrong in what he saying though.?
Innit.
He makes SOME valid points if he is talking about culture. But his general attitude and some of the stuff he went on to say, and the way he said it showed him to have a mix of ignorance and arrogance.
To shoot his argument down, I would point to Manchester (or even Birmingham?), not huge black populations, but still plenty rioting.
If he is saying that the black american gangster rap culture that has been so used by the media/marketing et al, and has been embraced by white youths as something to aspire to, has some blame in a bling is everything, look after yourself, sod everyone else culture - he may have a valid point
I think that was his intent, he just did it in a hamfisted way
and he was little else than other than a racist
which was the main thrust of the counterargument which was shouted at him
To shoot his argument down, I would point to Manchester (or even Birmingham?), not huge black populations, but still plenty rioting
his argument was about the cultures young people were living in not their skin colour, hence why Manchester isn't a counter argument
I see little reason why it alone should take the blame.
don't see anyone making that argument
Shouted? did we watch the same thing ?He seemed to talk over them just as much as they did him and did not really answer any questions
Blaming Black culture alone for greed in a capitalist society is silly. To suggest someone one black sounds white if they were on the radio is a stupid thing to say at best and racist at worst.
Typical response to an intelligent person trying to answer a few questions on a subject byond their remit is to brand them a racist for them being misunderstood.
I watched this and turned it off - everyone was annoying and were just having little shouty episodes; there was no constructive debate.
I want to like Owen Jones, but he's a bit smug and makes comments to sound clever rather than to make a point.
To suggest someone one black sounds white if they were on the radio is a stupid thing to say at best and racist at worst.
Does it make me a racist that I once thought Michael Macdonald was black?
didn't see it but the fella sounds a bit daft if nothing else.. you should keep your ignorant thoughts to yourself if you're on telly surely..?
Watching the clip, David Starkey comes accross as the most shouty opinionated one in the entire 10 minutes. If you thought he was getting ganged up on then you must have watched a different clip.
Shouted? did we watch the same thing ?He seemed to talk over them just as much as they did him and did not really answer any questions
He gives as good he gets, in a 2:1 debate with the reporter favouring the 2 he did well not to be overwhelmed
Blaming Black culture alone for greed in a capitalist society is silly.
were you watching the same program?
he didn't do that
To suggest someone one black sounds white if they were on the radio is a stupid thing to say at best and racist at worst.
if you hear me on the radio/ see what I write on internet forums you make assumptions about my skin colour, the reality is that you don't have clue. Does that make you racist?
He would have been better off using "American culture" rather than "Black culture".
That is is not the same being mistaken is not racist. However knowing someone is black and saying they sound white means ,in the context he said it, intelligent, articulate and not like most black culture which he clearly views as negative, criminal and destructive.I once thought Michael Macdonald was black
As he could not really answer any questions on black culture or the music he was largely ignorant on the issue he was waxing lyrical, but hey lets say we are all too stupid to get his point as he was so bright and well informed.
is culture not so fractured and disassembled now that you can only really attribute a cultural identity to one person at a time unless you are stereotyping/generalising/racist..?
if you hear me on the radio/ see what I write on internet forums you make assumptions about my skin colour, the reality is that you don't have clue. Does that make you racist?
No i dont. As you note, I dont have a clue about your race and I am not stupid enough to think I can tell from a forum , nor do I think it matters ,nor do i care what race you are 🙄
Anyway he knew what colour he was - and said the balck man sounded white- so it as an ill-conceived comparison.
[i]Is this not just the message of capitalism[/i]
Yes, and that was what I was alluding to, just in the context of the OP rather than the wider issue.
Personally I abhor this culture of constant upgrading and the way it's sold to us as the only way to become a worthwhile person. Most people seem to believe that what you have is the most important thing about you. Unfortunately, even those on the lowest incomes are believing this shite, and some are either getting into ridiculous amounts of expensive debt or committing crimes to keep up with the ficticious, marketting created Jones's.
I am in no way condoning the criminality of rioting and looting any more than any other criminal behaviour, although there does seem to be a general acceptance of the criminality of politicians, big business and celebs within the social structure.
Anyhow, **** all me spouting this will do, it won't change a thing and will just get me hot under the collar so I am off to wash my bike instead.
Condensed polarisation seems to be the method of making content fit the attention span that the TV format requires.
Starkey's statements sound like high school debating class provocations.
He's useless - what insight does he think he is providing? It's true that a nuanced discussion of race via the mainstream media is always going to be a fool's errand, but this is nothing like that. Just a profession media gobshite paying his mortgage.
On the plus side, Starkey has to know that he's become a middlebrow kelvin Mackenzie. So hopefully he hates himself.
Why did the producers think an expert on Henry VIII could talk expertly on the socio-economic conditions in inner cities?
Excellent point. Mind you, there are many on here who equally jolly well have not a clue about this situation and the issues raised yet seem to think their blinkered and ignorant views ought to go unchallenged....
I saw him on newsnight, and he was little else than other than a racist. He totally discredited any point he was trying to make. General gist of it was whites who become black riot, kill and steal, and blacks that become white are OK.
True dat. The other (White) feller on the show points this out, more or less. And seems far more on the ball than the bumbling dinosaur.
Starkey hazzunt really thought this through. As far as I can see, he is woefully unqualified to speak on any issues surrounding race and culture of ethnic minorities, given his favoured subject matter (British Monarchical History), so dunno quite why he was on the show, quite frankly.
I value his comments in the same way I value those of some folk on here, indeed one or two on this thread; ie, not much.
how many UK historians can you name off the top of your head?
Ok I don't know many and they're limited to ones off the telly I'm afraid and some do stuff that's abroad too and some are actually foreign but here goes:
Maxwell Hutchins
Bettany Hughes (on last night dong a brilliant programme about the Minoans)
Francesco di Mosto (Bloke what done programmes about Venice and stuff my mum fancies him)
Simon Shamer/Shama something like that
Dan Snow
Andrew Graham Dixon
Fiona Bruce and the orange bloke.
Oh I don't really know tbh.
if you hear me on the radio/ see what I write on internet forums you make assumptions about my skin colour, the reality is that you don't have clue. Does that make you racist?
Do you know what 'racism' actually is?
Bettany Hughes - Good call, but you're missing Lucy Worsley off that list!!
Mind you, that's quite handy as it's going to reduce the amount of fighting over her.
The thing overlooked about the Manchester riots, is the involvement of Mr Lattlay Fottfoy... who turns out to be related to Duggan 😯 Which paints an interesting picture on why rioting broke out there... 😉
As for whites becoming black... I reckon this bloke hit the nail on the head a few years ago:
[img] 
[/img]
And who can ignore this social commentary:
[i]Everybody wants to be famous,
Nobody wants to be nameless, aimless,
People act shameless
Tryna live like entertainers,
Want a fat crib with the acres,
So they spend money that they ain’t made yet,
Got a benz on tik that they ain’t paid yet,
Spend their pay cheque
In the west end on the weekend
Got no money by the end of the weekend.
But they don’t care cos their life is a movie,
Starring Louis V, paid for by yours truly,
Truthfully, its a joke, like a bad episode of hollyoaks,
Can’t keep up with the cover notes,
So they got bad credit livin’ on direct debit,
In debt but they still don’t get
Cos they too busy livin’ the high life, the night life
Huggin’ the high way, livin’ large
[/i]
how many UK historians can you name off the top of your head?
Ok I don't know many and they're limited to ones off the telly I'm afraid and some do stuff that's abroad too and some are actually foreign but here goes:Maxwell Hutchins
Bettany Hughes (on last night dong a brilliant programme about the Minoans)
Francesco di Mosto (Bloke what done programmes about Venice and stuff my mum fancies him)
Simon Shamer/Shama something like that
Dan Snow
Andrew Graham Dixon
Fiona Bruce and the orange bloke.Oh I don't really know tbh.
I don't know whether to be offended that you missed me off your list.
From Twop Twips on Twitter:
Twop Twips
NEWSNIGHT. Get informed expert comment on 21st century urban rioting by interviewing historians of the Tudor period.
Well, if I want to know about queer london I now know who to contact 😉
I don't know whether to be offended that you missed me off your list.
Well, knowing you're not one to court publicity, I weren't sure you'd want all the attention any mention of your name wooduv caused....
You never know when that kind of knowledge might come in handy 😉
Elfinsafety - Member
Excellent point. Mind you, there are many on here who equally jolly well have not a clue about this situation and the issues raised yet seem to think their blinkered and ignorant views ought to go unchallenged....
They aren't given a platform like Newsnight.
I should be on Newsnight. Paxman woon't be able to cope...
I wasn't sure who he was. So i googled him and got [url= http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/starkeyandhutch/ ]this[/url]
Elfinsafety - MemberDo you know what 'racism' actually is?
enlighten me, is it this?
Junkyard - Member
To suggest someone one black sounds white if they were on the radio is a stupid thing to say at best and racist at worst.
I wasn't sure who he was. So i googled him
I flippin' well hope you signed the petition..!!
for me a racist comment has to carry the intention to offend.
if not it's just ignorance not racism.
To me, Starkey is someone who is, like a number of people on this forum, culturally very ignorant as he seldom takes the opportunity to step outside his relatively very small cultural bubble and interact with others.
But he believes, due perhaps to his elevated status as a 'historian', that he is somehow qualified on all sorts of matters that he actually knows very little about. As is painfully proven in this case.
I'm at a loss as to why the programme producers thought getting some bumbling ignoramus on to talk about stuff he has bugger all real knowledge of was a good idea. Praps they thought it would descend into petty bickering, be 'controversial' and make good telly.... 🙂
Then again, we have a Prime Minister who talks about finding solutions to problems he has no clue whatsoever about, so I spose we shoon't be surprised....
i saw part of the program and to be fair starkey didn't put his point well. I think the argument is that an element of white society has adopted that part of black american culture that glorifies the gun. An element of society that seems to believe it is owed something and that it is ok to exist outside the mainstream, to take what it wants, to ignore the law etc.
But you could counter argue are the higher echelons, our business leaders, politicians etc, who see it as perfectly acceptable to falsify expenses, to award themselves salaries far removed from the majority, to deny help to those that need it, in any position to complain about those at the bottom??
nonk - Member
for me a racist comment has to carry the intention to offend.
if not it's just ignorance not racism.
No. It is the result, not the intention which is important.
Starkey is a waspish, shouty, pompous nitwit who (amongst very few other things) thinks that English History is all about it's Kings and Queens.
Had brief look.
He hasn't changed.
To me, Starkey is someone who is, like a number of people on this forum, culturally very ignorant as he seldom takes the opportunity to step outside his relatively very small cultural bubble and interact with others.
The Jamie does schools and failing kids didn't happen then?
But he believes, due perhaps to his elevated status as a 'historian', that he is somehow qualified on all sorts of matters that he actually knows very little about. As is painfully proven in this case
his first comment was that he was an historian and to ask him in 10 years time. Unfortunately he failed to shut up at that point.
Then again, we have a Prime Minister who talks about finding solutions to problems he has no clue whatsoever about, so I spose we shoon't be surprised....
I suppose he could ask David Lamy, he only works across the road, after him IDS and Frank Field have some views as well
I also watched the C4 discussion about the issues when the presenter asked the audience for good idea's about what practical steps could be taken guess how many he got?
What are your big ideas because the claim that others don't know what they are talking about means you must know what you are talking about.
But you could counter argue are the higher echelons, our business leaders, politicians etc, who see it as perfectly acceptable to falsify expenses, to award themselves salaries far removed from the majority, to deny help to those that need it, in any position to complain about those at the bottom??
I agree, we need more Martin Bell type characters about to ensure that those at the top don't abuse their position. The expectations of those who are in or aspire to power should be higher than those at the bottom and both should share a common moral grounding
The Jamie does schools and failing kids didn't happen then?
Pfft. That's like me eating some shortbread biscuits and claiming I know all about Scotland....
What are your big ideas because the claim that others don't know what they are talking about means you must know what you are talking about.
Big ideas about what? How to prevent rioting and looting and stuff?
Address the needs of [i]all[/i] sections of our society in a way that is actually effective, by talking and listening to people from all sections, and learning what they actually need, rather than what some ignorant and quite frankly disinterested self-serving politicians claim they do....
Plenty in my profile to give you some ideas. Why not have a read, keep you busy for a few weeks at least. 😆