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I've been looking at various articles extolling the virtues of HIIT for losing weight and keeping my corpse creaking along. According to what I've read, HIIT involves bursts of activity at 85-90% of max heart rate, which, if you calculate it as 220-age comes to 160, so I should exercise up to 144. What feels a bit strange, though, is that in my routine non HI training I reach that level without my eyeballs being over the handlebars - for sure it's not just coasting along, but it's not pedal-to-the-metal.
So I'm wondering is this because I am such a hero that I can tolerate HR higher than the recommended levels for normal feeble mortals, or is it because I am such a crock that my heart zooms up at the slightest provocation? You HIITers - do you feel like you're going to die with each HI session, or do you just feel satisfyingly tired? I'm not sure if I should be pushing myself more, or pushing myself less 🙁
First thing is to forget 220-age rule, it is too generic to have any meaning to individual persons.
90% of max hr is just that, not 220- age.
Out of my fiends no one seems to conform to that figure. I'm 49 and my max is 182, same age friend is 205, not 171.
Do a ramp test, or tabata or similar repeated short high effort intervals and see what max you come out with at the end of that and work from that.
220-45 (my age) is way lower than the reality, I regularly hit 185+ and hit 189 last weekend iirc (with 194 being my max last year).
My Lactate Threshold Heart Rate I can sustain for 20mins is ~169 from the last couple of weeks, it was 175 last year but through illness and injury I've not been able to push myself so hard this year since the start of March.
I find that usually, I'm more aware of my legs screaming at trying to hold the power output, than my heart and lungs screaming. I don't panic when my chestband HRM alerts me I'm at 188bpm via my GPS computer.
220-age is only a guide. Find your max by a test (proper lab is best, but you can do it by finding a longish hill, warm up, ride up it at a good intensity and every 20s go another gear harder at the same cadence until you can't any more - then stand up and sprint until it all goes black and you pass out. The highest number on your HR trace is going to be close to your Max)
Or find it by finding your threshold - find a flat road / circuit you can ride for about half an hour, warm up and then set out to go for half an hour as hard as you can maintain. Download your trace, discard the first ten minutes (you'll either have gone too easy and then ramped it up, or too hardf and ramped down....the last 20 should be more accurate)
Times this by 95% as an estimate for your 1 hour threshold, and that'll be 80-85% of your max, as near as needs be.
However, for HIIT I'm not sure knowing your HR is that vital. Just go as hard as you can for the session, which will only be about 10 minutes. I sometimes do one which is 4x30s of i/ burpees ii/ on the spot sprints iii/ press ups iv/ triple sits (first sit reach between your feet, second goes to the left of them, third to the right so it exercises the obliques too) - then 30s to bite down the chunks of vomit - repeat this 4x which is 8 mins of HARD work in 10 mins. It won't be max, but it'll be properly tough if you do it right, especially in set 3 and 4!!
Sounds like fast track to a stroke.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/apr/15/andrew-marr-high-intensity-exercise-dangerous
So I’m wondering is this because I am such a hero that I can tolerate HR higher than the recommended levels for normal feeble mortals
No. It's genetic, your heart rates are related to the relative sizes of ventricles and atria iirc which is genetic. If you get fitter your resting heart rate or heart rate at a specific power go down, but only relative to your own numbers. Pointless comparing numbers with other people, only yourself.
I have been doing regular HIIT sessions for the last 18 months or so. Some I find harder than others but the key thing is pushing hard throughout with big amplitude and powerful movements. The hardest one was Metafit Warrior Code - after I finished I would have thrown up if there had been any stomach contents inside of me.
Youtube metafit for an idea of the exercises - no equipment required and not much space needed either for most of them.
I really enjoy them. Agree with theotherjonv about HR not being vital- it really more about the perceived effort and it should be bloody hard but it is only for a short time.
I did a class last week and 6 out of the 7 of us looked as fresh as daisies at the end (I did not.....). They then all stayed on for the body pump class which was immediately afterwards I think they'd missed the point of the HIIT really by pacing it.
I am certainly stronger and more toned than beforehand, I've even got my other 1/2 doing them as it's over within 20/22 mins tops. If you're doing a class and it's 45 mins long that won't really be HIIT.
Linda (aged 49, no idea of max HR but have a resting one of 58)
220-age is from 1970. It's a best fit line to very noisy data. The *only* reason it has survived is because the maths is easy. The SD is about +/- 20 bpm!
Take a look at the data Tanaka used for his improved formula, 208-(0.7 x age) :
Source: https://theskepticalcardiologist.com/tag/tanaka/
NB I'm 48 and clocked 193 bpm cycling to work the other day. 220-age would be 172, but I can ride at 180 bpm for an hour quite easily. I was chatting to my PT about this the other week and when he was doing his Sports science degree his class did max HR testing on themselves, one of his friends clocked 230!
The variation person to person is amazing, I was riding next to someone yesterday and he said 'pace is getting hard, HR is at 120'. I looked down and mine was 176. He has a large volume heart, mine is small stroke, so has to beat faster to do the same work. For me to see 120 on a bike, I'd have to be pretty much coasting...
The other thing about max HR is that it varies depending on the sport you're doing.
220-age is a very rough rule of thumb but does put a marker in the ground and a good place to start and take it slowly from there. I'm 46 and reasonably fit but really don't like pushing up my heart rate too high...not sure I'd like doing a test that actually took me upto my actual physical maximum. too many people I know of, of a wide variety of ages, having heart attacks. I'll go to 170 then start to pull back, though in a typical spin class I'll be sitting at 160 for a good chunk of the class, and in a recent cycling sportive in the Alps I was in the high 150's and into the 160's for a good number of hours with bursts at low 170's occasionally, so I know I've got some buffer.
If you have any weaknesses then they are more likely to show as you get older. A chap at work has just suffered a minor stroke...he's fit as a fiddle, a bit younger than me but competes in Triathlon at national level and been doing it since he was a nipper, so not an unfit fat lad who's suddenly jumped off the sofa and pushing themselves too hard too soon. The primary hypothesis as to the cause was a hole in his heart (quite common apparently) which he's obviously had all his life and never held him back, but clearly now he's getting a bit older maybe these things start to become a bit more significant. Who know's, but not something I'd like to find out. I could push my HR above 170 I'm sure, I'm blowing out me backside at 170bpm but still have a bit left if I really wanted to give it everything, but not really sure I want to.
The other question is why do you want to beast yourself so hard? You're not a pro athlete and its not necessary to beast yourself to that extent to get fitter and lose weight.
41 here and regularly hit 186 in a HIIT sesh
Train 3-5 times a week. Cycle 100 miles a week. Can hit those heart rates with no problems.
If it stays elevated at that level after you've stopped working then you've got a problem but I can hit 186 at peak effort, stop whatever I'm doing then be down below 130bpm in 30 seconds.
220-age (65) puts me at 155max. 20min threshold test was also 155 so max must be higher than that (around 170ish) though I've rarely seen above about 165. As footflaps points out that best fit line is a best fit on a widely varying sample set.
The other thing about max HR is that it varies depending on the sport you’re doing.
Yep, my highest was running up hill in the Dales, clocked 207 (a few years back, so probably wouldn't get that high now).
53 here, fit, low cholesterol, correct weight, good diet. Max HR is 195 as tested recently in a cardio lab.
Some chest pain in May and diagnosed with non obstructive Coronary Artery Disease, likely genetics from grandparents. I now have to ride sweet spot, which for me is keeping below 85% max HR, which is 163. Garmin chest strap and alarm helps, and I can do long hard rides on road and gravel bikes, infact a couple of decent ones this weekend. MTB more difficult to stay out of threshold and I have an eMTB on order...
The Consultant, a keen roadie, used the Andrew Marr example and firmly recommends keeping out of VO2 max if there are any potential issues, which unfortunately many of us don’t know about until too late.
The other question is why do you want to beast yourself so hard?
If you have to ask then you won't understand the answer.
The other question is why do you want to beast yourself so hard?
I guess that's because I was interested in getting as much benefit as possible from a short training time. But it's not something I know a lot about (obviously!) so I'm open to other solutions 🙂
The other question is why do you want to beast yourself so hard? You’re not a pro athlete and its not necessary to beast yourself to that extent to get fitter and lose weight.
Good question...
Personally two reasons.
1. Bang for your buck, the higher I can get my HR cycling to work (only takes 10 mins) the higher I can up my metabolic rate for the rest of the day...
E.g. this was last Friday. You can see that my metabolic rate was raised for several hours after a sub 10 min bike ride. All I do is sit at a desk all day....
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48704656702_44d3842740_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48704656702_44d3842740_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2hcS6Ao ]HR[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
2. If I want to keep up with fast riders on a group ride, I have no choice but have to dip into the red on just about every climb!
Max HR is 195 as tested recently in a cardio lab.
Madness, what cardiologist in his right mind would have someone do that in a lab? (I assume you are over 25) After some noteworthy deaths during tests in France cardiologists now just apply 220 - age and stop the test at that. As my cardiologist said, that gives him all the information the test can give him without the risk of killing his patients. If they feel comfortable going higher that's up to them but not under his supervision.
It's a lottery, each year at the semaine fédérale cyclotouriste there are cardio-vascular system deaths. There are usually a couple of riders a year who keel over on the local cols. I tried and failed to save a guy who keeled over as I drove past. The other person to stop was nurse. That doesn't stop me doing things that are high risk (because it's a lottery and I hope not to win) but I do stick to a few simple rules as I'm getting on a bit.
Any sign of a cold, virus, infection... nothing more energetic than a fast walk.
When it's really cold take time to warm up and even then don't go mad. If it's really hot back off if the heat is affecting you.
If I feel crap, I don't fight it, just poddle home.
Learn to listen to your body and don't punish it. It's your ally not your enemy. And beware of your heart rate monitor, I've stopped using one and just go on feelings. My dentist, an averagely fit trithlete, didn't feel great and went for a test. The test went fine with no anomalies up to 220 - age. He continued training with his heart rate monitor despite feeling sluggish and had a heart attack out jogging (not running) a couple of weeks after the test.
The test went fine with no anomalies up to 220 – age. He continued training with his heart rate monitor despite feeling sluggish and had a heart attack out jogging (not running) a couple of weeks after the test.
The above seems to contradict this bit, though:
As my cardiologist said, that gives him all the information the test can give him without the risk of killing his patients.
Arguably, if the test had gone higher it might just well have picked something up that would have stopped him dying during his morning jog. I can confirm that my cardiologist stopped the test at 220-age too (and I'm also in France).
It may sound like a silly question, but what does hitting your max heart rate actually feel like? I've never formally measured my capacity, so are we talking about 'unable to push any harder', 'breathing hard but able to continue at a lower intensity' or 'at a standstill, trying not to puke'?
Aware that there's a degree of subjectivity there...
It may sound like a silly question, but what does hitting your max heart rate actually feel like? I’ve never formally measured my capacity, so are we talking about ‘unable to push any harder’, ‘breathing hard but able to continue at a lower intensity’ or ‘at a standstill, trying not to puke’?
I'm not sure you ever know if you actually hit your max, plus it will vary day by day based on CNS fatigue etc. Personally it doesn't feel that different to working in Zone 5, just hard work. I normally max when trying to keep up with a group rather than just pushing myself, as you get swept up in the moment and aren't intensionally trying to max out, I'm just trying not to get dropped on a climb! Quite often I don't notice the highest HR I got until I look at the data afterwards, I didn't notice at the time.
If I try a max back squat I literally see stars coming out the hole and often worry that I might pass out before I get he bar back in the rack - far more significant that hitting a max HR on a bike. My HR will probably only be 95 on a max back squat, not aerobicly taxing at all.
No contradiction, I discussed this with my cardiologist. You can have things that won't show up on the electrocardiogram until you keel over.
The case of Goscinny (Asterix author) he told the doctor he was having a heart attack during the test (pain in the left arm) but the doctor told him to continue. The instruments revealed nothing:
Cheers. I don't tend to ride with others and that gives me the ability to self-regulate and back off a bit earlier before I blow up, but I'm wondering whether even that leaves me bobbling around the max - as I probably don't want to spend too long there.
If you have to ask then you won’t understand the answer.
Try me. I have my reasons for not wanting to beast myself so hard in my middle age despite my desires to be fitter and better physically...I used to swim competitively and beasted myself 8 times a week, so have been there and got the T-shirt, but things were different then in terms of my goals and motivations and other commitments and responsibilities in life.....but one concern I never had at 17 was i'd suffer a stroke or heart attack and i'd routinely push myself in training to the point of throwing up or nearly blacking out. It is something that is more of a concern at my current age, so that changes the picture somewhat.
I guess that’s because I was interested in getting as much benefit as possible from a short training time. But it’s not something I know a lot about (obviously!) so I’m open to other solutions 🙂
Well I can certainly appreciate that as I want to do the same too as i'm time limited in the training I can fit into the rest of my life. I guess the only thing I'd say is that you have to define fit. There is not one single definition of fit. There are many different kinds of fitness, so first of all you need to define kind of fitness are you trying to improve. So you need a clearly defined goal and that goal will determine your training regime and how hard you need to push your heart. It might not necessary to beast yourself so hard routinely to achieve your fitness goals.
There is not one single definition of fit. There are many different kinds of fitness, so first of all you need to define kind of fitness are you trying to improve. So you need a clearly defined goal and that goal will determine your training regime and how hard you need to push your heart.
You'll still want to get a significantly elevated HR to get decent cardiovascular gains. I've not seen any (scientific) papers saying you can't still push yourself as you age.
In my case max heart rate didn't feel too bad. At 40 I set the alarm on my heart rate monitor at 200 for mass-start X-C ski races. It usually started to sound just after the hole shot and continued for a few minutes on a flat course or several minutes if the start was uphill. On the hole shot I was concentrating so hard on the skiing, choosing the line and getting through without breaking a stick or getting tripped up that getting to the max was completely painless. Once in the single line and just going fast enough to maintain my place (flat out minus a bit) the effects of oxygen debt showed: fighting clumsiness, everything feeling heavy, balance less than perfect, breathing co-ordination with skiing rhythm going to pot. Things slowly imoroved, the alarm stopped sounding and I tried to settle into my maximum cruising speed.
It may sound like a silly question, but what does hitting your max heart rate actually feel like?
As usual with human bodies it's not that simple. Your heart isn't like a car engine that directly drives your activity. It response to (I have been told) the CO2 levels in your blood, so HR increases the more CO2 there is to shift. This is why there's still Oxygen left in the air you breathe out, and hence why CPR works.
Depending on you and your history, certain activities are centrally limited which means that your max performance is limited by how much oxygen your heart and lungs can supply; and some are peripherally limited which means performance is limited by how much your legs/arms can process. So for me, I'm pretty sure I'm peripherally limited when cycling. If I ride as hard as I possibly can it's the pain in my legs that limits me and whilst I'm breathing hard it's not that bad, my HR is maybe 183 these days. However if I run as fast as I can, my heart is pumping faster than that but I end up gasping for breath, and my whole body is knackered - guessing this is because of general lack of oxygen.
In 2003 I was biking and XC skiing. On the bike a flat out sustained hard effort would be about 184bpm, whereas skiing at what felt like a normal very comfortable pace my HR was the same, despite being far lower perceived exertion.
So what I'm trying to say is that it's not your actual heart that has a top speed like an engine, it's only one of many components in a system all of which have limits that you may hit depending on what you're doing. Maximal exertion on a bike 'feels' quite different to maximal exertion running, swimming or skiing because what's happening in your body is different. Not that I'm a physiologist mind - if one comes along please correct me.
Interesting side note - it's chilly in the house today and I was feeling a bit cold. But after simply thinking about and recalling all these maximal efforts, my metabolic rate seems to have gone up and now I'm feeling quite warm.
Sounds like fast track to a stroke.
Very interesting... I was incorporating a bit of HIIT into my commute (didn't use a monitor) and it was making a difference - I was feeling fitter. During this period.. I went to a gig and moshed (I know, at 55, you mental) - Monday after the gig... TIA. Find heart now permanently in AF.
Huh. Related? who knows. Shit though.
So what I’m trying to say is that it’s not your actual heart that has a top speed like an engine, it’s only one of many components in a system all of which have limits that you may hit depending on what you’re doing.
Your CNS is the ultimate arbiter. Using the car analogy it controls the timing of the engine and if it's feeling a bit tired, no matter how hard you push the accelerator, it will say "nope, not today".
Strength related, but basically after exercise your CNS prevents high threshold muscle recruitment, so effectively clamps a rev limiter on exercise...
Find heart now permanently in AF.
I found this quite interesting, did mention it and apparently more common in very fit people (IIRC)...
a variation of whats been said above with sone input also not mentioned..
my max HR is around 180 according to the magic formula. (i'm 43). i've been up to 185 but also at the moment, rarely go above about 170. so..
only by doing intervals and logging rides will you know the upper bounds. I know if I spend too long around 180 I tend to throw up. Done it twice, on the same hill, at the same spot.
I also know when i'm fitter my HR will recover faster between interval sets.
having a high HR doesnt mean its better. not having the highest HR but 1) being able to sustain power at threshold and 2) recovering to low HR after intensity are what I believe is important (from internet wisdom learned from googling a lot)
1) not all HR monitors are made equal. chest straps are normally agreed to be better than wrist ones for example.
2) its MUCH harder to hit max HR on a static bike
so as I said. aim for approx. dial that in from HR logs from the real world (tm).
also.. i've done (bits of) and will be starting the mtb.fitness 12 week programme again very soon. the HIIT intervals in that are cadence/RPM based NOT HR based.
"Learn to listen to your body and don’t punish it."
agree 100%. same with injuries etc.
"And beware of your heart rate monitor, I’ve stopped using one and just go on feelings. "
yup use it for post ride analysis and listen to your body during the ride. my eyesight has deteriorated to where its hard to read it off the stem mounted garmin or my garmin watch thingy without pausing and moving it away a bit! which helps!
“And beware of your heart rate monitor, I’ve stopped using one and just go on feelings. ”
I found it invaluable racing as you get caught up in the adrenalin etc, whereas the HR monitor meant I could control my efforts and avoid blowing up. I would back off on climbs if I was getting to close to blowing completely and just accept that I'd have to rein them back in later on (or let them go).
Agree that your body is rubbish at judging efforts in both training and events. So many running and cycling events I've done people rush off too fast at the beginning only for me to reel them in later on. You have no chance accurately judging your effort with everything going on during a tough training session or at the start of an event.
Also I've found that power is much better than HR. for a given power your HR can vary quicte a lot from day to day due to a great many factors; fatigue, stress, temperature, altitude, what you've eaten etc. HR is a reaction to the target effort you're putting in and ultimately our main aim is to increase our average power.
Also I'll like to take issue with the HRM accuracy thing. I've got a Garmin and Wahoo chest monitor and my Apple Watch. And my Apple Watch agrees bang on with whichever chest mounted HRM I might be using.Its a bit slower to react, but once you're settled at a particular effort the Apple Watch will agree. They all might be as crap as each other, but they're consistently and repeatedly crap so that proves them to be perfectly valid tools. Most problems people have with HRM readings are most likely to be with user error and not wearing them properly or something. Having your Apple Watch loose on your wrist for example. Amazing how many people wear them loose and attempting to track their heart rate.
It may sound like a silly question, but what does hitting your max heart rate actually feel like? I’ve never formally measured my capacity, so are we talking about ‘unable to push any harder’, ‘breathing hard but able to continue at a lower intensity’ or ‘at a standstill, trying not to puke’?
Maxing it out in training, on the turbo say, will feel like a gigantic effort - mine is 182 and anything over 170 feels like I'm in the death zone, cannot be sustained. I feel similar to what wobbliscott is saying above, I don't really like to do ramp tests as I will max out on them (although they are a very quick way of ballparking an ftp figure).
In a race, though, you're just in a different mental place. I averaged over 170 for a cross race the other week - it was hard AF but I never had the feeling that my heart was going like the clappers or anything like that, you don't even notice it.
footflaps, doesn't that Polar display simply suggest your HR at work is higher than when you are asleep?
I had similar concerns a few weeks back and started a thread.
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/heart-rate-and-exercise-concerns/
Since then I have been altering my Zones by slowly increasing my max heartrate setting on my Garmin by 5 bpm every couple of weeks of weeks, slightly more frequently if I'm getting more exercise in.
If I'm caning it I'm still getting long periods above the top of zone 5 but it is coming down now as a percentage of the ride.
I also ride a lot more to the the heart monitor and try to stay in Zones 3/4 most of the time with the odd excursion into the red.
I'm 67 and can say that at 220 bpm I am really aware of my heart beating. Not when riding, just when I stop. (both my Garmin wrist based and chest belt HRMs agree to within a couple of BPM).
220 minus my age has always been pretty close for me. 45 y.o. and have a max of about 178ish. I'm not too precise about this stuff, but it's good to know the ballpark. Mostly I hover around mid to high 160s on the toughest aspects of the ride with a sustainable output in the 140s.
Physiologically, there's a ton of resistance to pushing above 170. It's 100% committment territory. No brain space to think, downward spiral of breathing control, little golden twinkly bits in my vision and absolutely no ability to talk during, or indeed after.
footflaps, doesn’t that Polar display simply suggest your HR at work is higher than when you are asleep?
There is an exponential decay back to my seated resting HR, my seated HR by about 4pm is lower than that at 9.30....
In a race, though, you’re just in a different mental place.
Yep, I look back at HR traces from racing days, and spent 90 mins within 10 beats of max HR, which does seem quite mad, think max was about 195 back then. No way could I do that on a turbo. I couldn't do that now in a race if I tried, don't have the tolerance for suffering that much....
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/211/498066121_6f5d840621_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/211/498066121_6f5d840621_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/L1HGV ]NPS-2 HR[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
You HIITers – do you feel like you’re going to die with each HI session, or do you just feel satisfyingly tired? I’m not sure if I should be pushing myself more, or pushing myself less
You should be feeling sick, faint, like your heart might be about to stop, maybe even a taste of blood in your lungs.
A small correction on the 220-age formula is to take only 0,5 after 30.
So if 44
220-30-(14*0,5)
This looks really interesting I will read this later but what Molly said is right
Pointless comparing numbers with other people, only yourself.
but there are some things that are "indicators" for example a low resting rate and the time it takes for your HR to fall post hard effort. These things respond to training although (happy to be proved wrong) I think the upper rate is fairly "fixed" it may move slightly with heavy training but very little. You ability to perform for longer periods at close to that maximum does improve significantly with training. Thats why the upper limit itself is less important but your performance within that "window" is
The variation person to person is amazing, I was riding next to someone yesterday and he said ‘pace is getting hard, HR is at 120’. I looked down and mine was 176. He has a large volume heart, mine is small stroke, so has to beat faster to do the same work. For me to see 120 on a bike, I’d have to be pretty much coasting…
Even within the same family! My brother is 11 years younger than me and some years ago when we were both in good shape we ran a 5 miler and in the middle we ran roughly a 5 minute mile. My HR at that point was around 145-155. His was over 200 for the whole period.
Dont know how old you are Drj but I found this book helpfull. Fast after 50