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Electrician came to do a minor job, says the entire house wiring system is dodgy (we moved in last year) and he can't sign it off.
He looked at the paperwork (that came with the house) from whoever last replaced the consumer unit, says the paperwork is basically wrong, they're classed replacement of the consumer as a minor job whereas it isn't, and they should have checked the entire house wiring when doing it.
We need a full survey of the electrics but unfortunately not in a position to do that right now.
The current electrician wants to show the suspect paperwork to his regulatory body NICEIC.
I suppose in an ideal world we'd get compensation for something wrongly signed off with which we can pay for fixing this mess, but I'm not holding my breath, and I'm worried the opposite will happen ie we'll be landed with even more liability ourselves for raising the issue. Could that happen? Is there any point in getting NICEIC involved until we're in a position to actually fix the electrics?
Get them involved you may get compensated by the original sparky having to redo his wrongs.
If you cant afford it whack it on a 0% 24 month credit card? You'd sleep better at night when the house isn't melting
YOu may not have any option but to fix it. The sparky could have turned it all off. Depends on how dangerous he thinks it is
Did the sparky give you any paperwork?
IANAE but was in a similar issue some years ago (repeated tripping of circuit traced to wiring to one socket) but the electrician refused to repair that as the failure was indicative that the wiring elsewhere would be equally shonky. We needed to rewire anyway so we had budgeted for it at some point, though.
What is relevant is that he is a professional doing a regulated job and therefore has a responsibility for what he works on, including I suspect reporting substandard work by other parties - even if it's just he feels he can't turn a blind eye to it.
I don't think you'll have much chance of compensation for something wrongly signed off (from who - the previous owner?) but may be worth checking your survey just in case.
As for 'not in a position to do that right now' - having found a faulty / potentially dangerous (he doesn't know yet) IDK if he has a right or obligation to act upon it. I do know from a plumber mate that under Gas Safe in an equivalent situation with gas he can 'demand' you get it done and if severely unsafe can get the gas turned off because of the risk.
Is it actually dodgy or just the wrong paperwork issued? Hmm, i guess you have no way of knowing, silly question.
When we had our consumer unit changed it came with a condition report that said all the original wiring was old and not to current regs but essentially fine. Are you just missing this bit of paper?
Another viewpoint every time I have a sparky in they try to up sell a rewire. Have you had a safety cert done? If it tests within parameters then it should be fine
@tjagain the current guy is still here working. The previous guy (before my time) tried to pass off a consumer unit change as minor works. They have a test certificate, but it's for minor works which isn't correct, and the current dude took one look at the unit and said it's dodgy.
If the original chap is told to redo his wrongs, given he's the kind of chap who did it wrong in the first place I'm not sure that really helps!
Yeah, the wiring is old and not to current regs (single core cables, unearthed lighting circuit) so it is possible to get it signed off as ok with that proviso so long as it tests ok?
from my limited understanding yes - it can be safe even if it isn't to current standards. But you won't know without running proper testing on it and if that shows dangerously unsafe, then IDK if that then means it can be disconnected (cf the gas situation)
Too many variables for me to know. the guy working now should advise you and I think he has a variety of options from close it all down ( unlikely as he is working on it) to signing off with caveats.
sounds like it really needs to be redone tho and fairly urgently.
If the current chap is on the upsell (which he probably isn't) then does sharing the old cert with NICEIC force my hand?
Get an EICR performed on the installation, that will let you know what any potential issues may be.
That will then let you understand its status and what needs to be done.
As has been said above, the wiring might not be up to current regulations but that does not mean that it is necessarily unsafe.
Edit:
Unlike Gas Safe, electricians do not have the authority to force the electricity to be switched off. The DNO (the electricity supply company) does have that authority but they only have the responsibility up to the meter.
just did some googling, looks like the responsibility for the installation is the property owner / landlord. A qualified sparky is a qualified advisor and can issue dangerous installation certificates and turn the power off to the place but if the moment his back is turned and out the door you turn it on again, he's done his job.
But if someone subsequently got injured or worse, or the place burned down, I'm not sure whether you'd be liable for ignoring the advice, whether insurance could refuse to pay out......
It also seems that the electrical regs are Part P of building regs, so while reporting a dodgy installer for his past work to NICEIC might get the installer in trouble, it doesn't bounce back to you; however in some google examples (admittedly for commercial premises, eg: a cafe where sockets were being made available for phone charging) the sparky reported to the local council licensing office and/or building control officer who do have powers.
The current electrician wants to show the suspect paperwork to his regulatory body NICEIC.
The reason he may want to do this is: The previous electrician is NICEIC/part P/domestic installer registered or claims to be, which in the later case the NICEIC will prosecute someone using their name who isn't registered,
To change a consumer unit requires an Electrical installation certificate which is notifiable under the Part P regulations, this means the electrician should belong to a scheme such as the one the NICEIC does. A minor works in a lot of cases is not notifiable.
YOu may not have any option but to fix it. The sparky could have turned it all off. Depends on how dangerous he thinks it is
The current electrician can issue a notice to you stating the installation is unsafe, this is more of a get out clause for him, he has warned you, if you chose to continue using the electrics its your responsibility.
Yeah, the wiring is old and not to current regs (single core cables, unearthed lighting circuit) so it is possible to get it signed off as ok with that proviso so long as it tests ok?
Yes, with a couple of provisos: the condition of the cabling is ok, in other words not disturbed too much over the years. The problem here is you don't know what has been going on all these years,
The lighting circuit must have plastic light switches and plastic light fittings/double insulated, no metal fixtures or fittings due to a lack of earth.
If the current chap is on the upsell (which he probably isn’t) then does sharing the old cert with NICEIC force my hand?
No. The may like to think they are the law, but the NICEIC are simply a trade body.
As said before, an EICR would be an idea, if you feel the current electrician is up to no good, get a few other electricians to quote on it.
There is a clause on the EICR, in section D of the certificate which states that the building fabric will not be disturbed during the inspection and test, this can mean the inspector will not be ripping up floorboards of punching holes in wall/ceilings. But if you are unsure about the condition of the wiring and cable junction boxes in particular, you can agree for this to happen.
We've had this with the wife's old flat (rented out).
The first sparky condemned the whole place and wanted to completely rewire the flat to fix a minor problem.
We then than asked alanl (of the STW parish) to take a look, who found the problem (leaking freezer on an extension block, which unplugging solved the problem) and said the first sparky was an idiot. The first sparky didn't find the wet extension plug in the kitchen and wanted several £k to rewire the house. Alan found and fixed it in 20 minutes...
The first sparky then kicked off when we told him to sling his hook and threatened to report us to a whole range of random acronyms. We told him to do as he pleased but he wasn't getting a penny from us. Never heard from him again.
Whip a couple of switches and sockets off the walls and have a look at the standard of the wiring. Blue and brown means it's a relatively new installation, and you can form a subjective opinion of the quality by looking to see if cables enter back boxes through grommets; are cut to the correct lengths; earths correctly screened etc.
Unless you're dangling huge loads off it the risks are actually pretty small, particularly so if the installation is RCD protected and the RCD works.
My last place was fully signed off (new build) yet the electrician had managed to wire the washing machine fused spur in backwards, blowing the fuse, breaking the ring, and leaving the appliance permanently live.
No offence Flaperon, but doing what is suggested doesnt really provide any confidence in the condition of the installation.
Just because an RCD functions on the test button on the front of the device, doesnt mean it will operate correctly (within the time permitted)
Even if the installation was only completed yesterday, unless the installer performed the appropriate installation tests there can be no confidence that the installation is correct or safe.
If there were installation records (which in the OP's house, dont seem to be available) then what you suggest could be part of the assessment process, but without them an EICR is required, in this instance.
Depending on the size of the house, it shouldnt really take too long and therefore costs are unlikely to be prohibitive, without meaning to make an assumption of your financial position.
Yeah I've just looked up EICR prices online, they come in at a lot less than my current chap's day rate so looks like I can afford EICR from a third party.
Going to ask him to take it up with NICEIC as from responses above they it sounds like they may be able to make the previous installer come back and finish the job properly (even though I wasn't the customer at the time).
i know ill be shot down in flames and with this being STW somebody will be along saying they got an EICR for £1.99 and then somebody else saying it cost them two kidneys but I would say for a 3 bedroom house, with people living in it and having to navigate the belongings a hard day at the house doing the test and then a few hours off site completing the form would be reasonable.
I dont have experience of NICEIC but am aware of how one of the same bodies operates in Scotland (SELECT) and as mentioned earlier they are essentially only a trade body, but their approach is that the person who complains has to be the customer who requested the work. So if you had got the consumer unit replaced, you could contact them to get their support, but if it was from a previous owner then they would not be in a position to support you.
I know its shocking! no pun intended.
Hopefully NICEIC will be able to help more in your case.
The thing is, any EICR is as useful as an MOT, its caveated up to the hilt and it is by no means a guarantee but it will give a good indication and about as much as you can do apart from wiring the place yourself to know for certain its done correctly. Because of the system used by the industry for self-certification and regulation the whole thing is only as good as the worst contractor, sadly.
Even if the installation was only completed yesterday, unless the installer performed the appropriate installation tests there can be no confidence that the installation is correct or safe.
It's kind of the gamble of buying somewhere new. As I said, the "appropriate installation tests" won't detect gross incompetence, especially when it comes to high current loads and this is why a quick inspection of the standard of wiring in switches and sockets would be sensible.
You're quite right that the performance of the RCD is unknown. Congratulations on that piece of paper in your hands saying that 10 years ago yours met the manufacturer specifications. How do you know that it still works as it should? Perhaps you should replace it, just in case. But then how do you know that your new one works?
Another electrician who did the work in the kitchen of the place I bought signed off the installation yet installed a 240v cable running diagonally behind the cabinets. It's very easy to compare the standard of his work to that of the guy who did the rest of the place, where everything is the right length, joined appropriately and neatly installed. This gives me the confidence that the bits that are in the walls are probably done to the same standard.
Presumably the OP ran a plug-in socket tester around the place before moving in?
I really dont want to get into an argument, honest.
gross installation errors? well a the installation test will ensure that there is an earth at every point, that ring final circuits are rings on all conductors, that there are no high resistance joints that the source earth impedance is low enough, the prospective fault current is high enough, that there is no damage to the electrical insulation, polarity is correct and the earth fault loop impedance at each location is correct.
With regards to the RCD, the tester can tell you the time it takes to trip the device, at design fault current and 5 times the design fault current and also the value of the current used to cause the trip. That should be performed every time an RCD is installed for fixed wiring.
The plug socket tester gives some limited help, such as some polarity and whether the switch works, apart from that it doesnt give much more help.
I have seen a worryingly high number of EICR and installation test that bear absolutely no resemblance to the installation and have obviously been made up by somebody, as well as seeing loads that are good.
Having a view on the general workmanship is good and will generally show how conscientious the installer is and then that can help to guide things.
The whole thing is so open to not being foolproof, if the installation is performed correctly with certificates and then two days later somebody comes and alters it or disturbs it then an unsafe condition could occur.
im not trying to be a dick, honest. but I have seen some horrendous things on wiring.