[Closed] High profile job / work-life balance: Dadworkertrackworld

Ask your boss; would he be happy to have your family and kids in the office during work time? No? Then why does he feel it's appropriate the other way around?

Set the boundary, if it's not already too late. Any buy the "Essentialism..." Book for him and suggests he read it. Actually, but two and you read one as well.

Stop balancing it all. Balance what matters and pass the rest on to others. You already know what matters.

What is the most important thing in life for you?

DT78 - Member
What is the most important thing in life for you?

Riding bikes!!!!

My boss is actually a she - you'll see and hear her in the media a lot! She's very understanding actually, although I'd note that she has no kids of her own...

I would suggest her priorities are wrong and that if that is going to be a long term issue then you need to consider looking for a new role.

You get 3 score and 10 on the planet, and if you're lucky you get to spend some of that with your kids. How much is down to your own choices not what you think someone else wants you to do. Dont waste it.

[img] [/img]

I've had a couple of these chats before, mostly while trying to have an actual life when working away.

There are arguments both ways but if your in the office 4 days/week then it tells me other people have the problem not you.

I'd be asking for clarity on the "Not Visible" part - are you stuck in your office? Maybe move your desk to a plinth in the middle of the office 😉 What time are you leaving to be home by 5:30pm? If your early start get out on time means most of the office is only crossing over 70% of the day with you it won't help.

Sounds like she's griping about the Wednesdays doesn't it?

maybe set up a teleconference session for the days when you aren't in the office:

[img] [/img]

all I can say is... "I quit"

(bear in mind I've had a wine or two)

I got paid a lot.... (like don't tell STW because they'd vilify your for it)

..and it was an easy job but time heavy..

I quit and earned nothing..

I spent a lot more time with kids..

Happiest time ever... (but also poorest)

Time = Wealth

Looking back on this which will you regret most, missed time with your kids or or not doing those extra-extra-extra hours in the office? Think at whatever level operating at, isn't work is about defining boundaries and approach and sticking to it? About to leave my employer of 20 high intensity years and whilst proud of my time there my biggest regret I didn't balance enough to start a familly when had the chance.

What does visibility mean? Visible to employees, management team, or to peers and seniors? Easy solutions to all of these once time allocated.

take your foot off the gas until kids are older

Ben,

I'm a Scrum Master (moved to Agile in 2005 so although new to most, i've been doing it ages), I've been a product owner, I can run Lean and Agile and have been in big transformation projects.

Time with kids is precious and cannot be replaced

Work just moves on whether you're there or not

Visibility is another way of saying 'not pulling your weight' or 'not here'

Killer lines to boss

"I've had a better offer, I quit"

8)

The flip side....
I'm really glad my mother pushed herself when I was younger she worked some long hours but also provided well for us, enabled us to have good opportunities and her to have a successful career that meant she could retire in her 50's and enjoy retirement. I will remember much more of my time now than when I was a young kid.

Take stock of where you are and where you will be going, don't make rash decisions and get to the bottom of what the work issue really is.

She says that you need to be more visible... 😆

[img] [/img]

Nobody ever writes on their deathbed "I wish I'd worked more..."

I had something similar years ago, my boss pulled me in and said it had been noted that I tended to leave on time. I asked if he had a problem with the quality or quantity of my work. I was far more productive than my predecessor had been so when he said no I let him have it both barrels. It didn't get mentioned again.

However I'm now in a similar position to you and wouldn't dream of working from home one day a week regularly, you set the standard, especially if it's not an option open to those more junior than you, it smacks one rule for one etc. The bit about using IT rather than travelling, again very laudable stance but I hate teleconferencing (we don't have a choice when we're speaking to people from China, India and Canada) nothing beats face to face for motivating people.

I would suggest you do reasses your visibility, at the level you're at the perception can be more important than reality, that's one of the reasons you're paid well. By the the way I'd love to be in for 5:30pm every day having left home around 6:30am, reality is closer to 7:00pm most nights. But that's my problem and one I'm trying to address.

I don't know how you operate, but my strategy is to be [b]extremely[/b] visible when I am actually in the office. I saunter about the place, aggressively talking to people so they know I'm there, before departing at my preferred hour of departure with a cheery wave.

🙂

What does he actually mean by visible? Maybe he means you are not interacting enough with the rest of the team? Or something else? I would not take "not disable" to mean spend more time at work

He is a she.
My best mate and his wife are both full time workers, they've only just become parents less than 2 years ago so both at 40 ish. They've already missed in that short time so much and the fun hasn't really started yet. Kids are precious but are only young for such a short time, make it count...

Too many meetings? Be at your desk more and make people meet you for 15 minutes at most 🙂

In my personal experience "not visible enough" is more about things that fall outwith real job. Having worked in big organisations there were endless opportunities for involvement in organisational or corporate development. Unfortunately this is what gets people noticed rather than necessarily successfully running real work. In fact being really good at core delivery just makes people think your job is easy, whereas averting near disaster gets kudos, even if it was avoidable in the first place!

In big organisations there are people who don't really do any real work but constantly move from one transformation initiative to another organisational developkent as it gives then lots of board face time. It really annoys me, but ultimately they tend to only get so far as people at the very top are rarely idiots.

But the corporate visibility thing is something that is looked for if you want to get promoted to the highest levels. If you don't I wouldn't worry too much but might be worth paying lip service to some of the corporate bollox. Maybe delegate some of your real work if you have good people working for you to give yourself some time for it.

Ultimately I got fed up with it all and jacked it in. Worked as a consultant for a bit, which was just as lucrative, but I was able to just do my job. Sadly been drawn back into the corporate BS where I work now, but am working on exit strategy

I would start recording your conversations with the boss.
Then you have some evidence when you start unfair dismissal proceedings.Or have an affair with the boss.
Where I am, the senior management are happy to spout about life/work balance and their duty of care to the employees - they will then happily contradict all the bull poo they have fed down to us plebs.

I would suggest you do reasses your visibility

You can't have it all.

The trade off with high responsibility (and high pay) jobs tends to be personal time.

What do you want from your career? Could you take your foot of the gas for a few years and then get back into it and still take it to a level that would satisfy you? Or push hard now and retire early?

IME (indirect) experience, if your career / time scale is out of balance, the only way to rebalance is to give up one of either - or move to Dubai where the senior working culture seems to allow for both!

+1 to what 'more visible' really means. I suspect it means that if you want to make the next step to board level then you need to actively be spending time getting face to face time with other board members just for the sake of being seen. Attending the right meetings, being a big noise. I've done big corporate too, and I want out of it.

My criticism was that i was too quiet and didn't participate in meetings. I patiently explained that just as had been outlined to us extensively on the hugely expensively residential teamworking course we'd done but a few months earlier, different folks have different styles and some like me, assimilate, understand, assess and weigh up, and then deliver opinions. We don't shout our thought processes out loud. And a good manager facilitates so all can participoate in the way that suits them. Fell on deaf ears, of course, and I became the person I hated who just repeats everything everyone else says but in different words to make it seem like they're participating.

Bottom line; what's important to you. If, as you suggest, the life side of the balance is - then accept you won't make CEO of a PLC and be happy with your choice. And don't be scared to tell your boss either, and get her to start valuing what you do bring to her organisation, not what she thinks you need to do to get on. If she can't - you're in the wrong job / got the wrong boss so move on. Be prepared for that - not everyone has the same priorities and some can't even see that there are other priorities.

... Have just reread the OP, your are already doing the corporate transformation thing, so it may be about your bosses perception about upward visibility and general hob nobbing with the board etc. Again it's something else that always annoyed me, judged on networking rather than delivery.

I also think that once past a certain level the modern expectation is that work is primary and life secondary. Always on connectivity sldoesnt help.

Finally, it may be that you bosd just felt the need to find something she perceived as a developmental for you to work on and visibility is a conveniently non specific concept

... and good luck, you are not alone in feeling this!

JoeG has it.... 😆

Sounds like you have the balance and the problem is hers. Too many managers work too hard and expect others too also.

Nobody wishes they'd worked more, and will it ever be enough anyway?

Any top tips or killer lines for my boss from Dadworkertrackworld?

Any top tips or killer lines for my boss from Dadworkertrackworld?

You don't own me, you rent me.

Worked for me, set out my boundaries fairly early in my current job in an office where others seem to compete to be first in and last out. I do my work well but I do it within the bounds of what I'm contracted to. I'll work extra on occasion but it's the exception rather than the norm.

My experience of this is that you won't get someone to understand work/family life balance if they don't have kids and define themselves by their work.

It's a rare corporate culture indeed that facilitates both.

You need to understand in greater detail what she means by visibility.

In every job i've had since I had kids i've made it clear from the outset that the period beteween 5 pm and 7:30 the next morning does not belong to me.
It's not my time to sell to my employer, even if I wanted to.
It belongs to my wife and kids.

"she has no kids of her own" - Ouch. No judgement there then.

Maybe you need to think a bit laterally. If the problem is that you aren't visible enough that doesn't mean you need to be in the office more. (visible enough to whom ? You need to establish that)

Do you ever wander about on the floors and speak to people ? Do you attend low-level team meetings from time to time, just to say hello and ask them what they are doing ? None of these things take that much out of your day. Some really good leaders I have worked with did that kind of thing.

Olddog nails it for me. I've always been told I'm not visible, it's because I get on my job, do it well but don't talk to people (managers) enough. Which is usually because those conversations are corporate BS. I think it could also be construed as "you need to be telling me what to do".

Maybe its an HSE thing....

[img] [/img]

Seriously though , its a race to the bottom for most folk.... i leave the office on the dot every day UNLESS theres someone needing urgent operational technical support or a prescheduled meeting with another region in another time zone.

some colleagues look at me funny but then im in the office at 8am and they saunter in at 9....but as another colleague said yesterday - doesnt matter when you come in its the overlap with their hours that most folk care about "whys he going home early"

Fingers crossed its along the lines of what hels said because if its not i would be looking for another job before i race to the bottom.

I think most people are missing the point.

theotherjonv - Member
+1 to what 'more visible' really means. I suspect it means that if you want to make the next step to board level then you need to actively be spending time getting face to face time with other board members just for the sake of being seen. Attending the right meetings, being a big noise. I've done big corporate too, and I want out of it.

Is closest for me, but still not quite there.

I've told two people to be more visible recently:
- One is really smart, does a good job and doesn't get the credit for what they do because nobody really sees it - the work is contained to a team and would have huge value across the business if he communicated it better.

- The other is about influence. He was brought in to do a transformative job but, to do this, he needs to influence and change Board behaviour. He's doing that at the moment through his Director, rather than by himself, so it's nothappening. The visibility he needs is one-to-one relationships with Directors not just to be seen but to actually lead the transformation that the CEO wants.

and have a one-below-Board level job running a national public service to do in my spare time

Seems to be your biggest issue.

This is a hard one and frankly one with no specific answer. I have never seen anyone manage to balance a top level ExCo type job with normality such as riding and family, sorry if that sounds a bit harsh but it's my observation. Even the guys, and they were all guys, who 'did' stuff were usually anally retentive A type obsessive people out road riding at 5:30am to 'smash it down' before they had a quinoa shake in the office and made some decisions before going home at 10pm. Their kids stare at them blankly and their wife is nobbing the bloke that cleans the windows as at least he talks to her....(that was pure sterotype but sadly true more often than you think). I've been a CxO a fair few times, NED and Board, still am. I could do more, be better but I've come to the conclusion that I need to be 'me' and what makes me happy is when I can ride my bike, cuddle my daughter, play in the garden and see her during the week. I was averaging 80-90 hours per week for the last 4 months of last year - I realised I could die and nobody would actually give a sh1t (at work) and whatever I do, being a success, I could do more. This isn't arrogant in anyway at all, I'm quite normal but there comes a point when you have to sort of decide. My colleagues now generally are defined by their jobs, I have little if anything in common with any of them bar maybe 2 (out of 50), and I feel very isolated most of the time. Having kids to me was a decision I made and having grown up barely seeing my dad I can do better than that for my daughter, she might have to get a secondhand bike and we might not do Meribel this year but frankly I could pitch the tent in the garden and as long as she has my undivided time and attention (no phones, no email) she is a transformed child. Someone wrote an epic post a few weeks back about a total meltdown caused y work, try and find it and read it. Equally if you are in Glasgow and want a beer drop me a note as I am near there as well.
Nobody can give you answers and don't beat yourself up, someone elses priorities are not yours. Only you can decide what is important to you.

Agree with a lot of people on here, especially nzcol.

I think the vast majority of people at the top of large (and small) organisations have chosen work over everything else. I think if you want to get to the top its more than likely that you would have to do the same, but just sacrificing everything else is not a guarantee it will happen.

i think this is what your boss is getting at, if you want to progress futher you need to start sacrificing other things in preference to work.

You need to find the work/life balance that you want, and accept the consequences of that choice.

I think I have found my work/life balance (for now anyway) and am happy with it. I'll never be CEO or on the board of a large company, but thats fine by me, the money it pays, and the 'status' it brings is not worth the sacrifice for me.

you're a long time dead and your kids will not want to spend time with you after they're teenagers. On your death bed you're not likely to say 'oh I wish i had spent more time at work'
My view is a bit screwed though as I've seen both my parents die before their time.

I think it's really important that you've realised there is a balance, and that both parties (family / work) are important.
So many people fail to recognise the importance of having a job, but also NOT working.
As has been said - just because it may not be your (childless) bosses priority, it doesn't mean you shouldn't prioritise it.

The way I balance it is that I actively 'timetable' my days off.
As in, I'm often being asked/hunted to be doing additional non-clinical work (CCG stuff) and made guilty for not taking it on. However, I can happily justify to myself that "if I start working on my day off, it's no longer my day off".

Time spent not working isn't simply there to be 'available' for work. Time spent not working is valid time too!

DrP

Thanks to everyone contributing here - a set of fair and balanced views for me to chew over.

I think it was the irony of being told to be more visible during a 2-night trip away from home that grated!

I like to imagine that I'm competent at my job and fear that I might end up being encouraged to consider a "step-up" to a more high profile and senior version within my current workplace

I don't want to and I'm not going to unless I've got a proper plan in place for it

The guy in the post currently is way better at it than me - much easier networker etc but also very hard-working (as an overall "package" I think he's pretty exceptional and could go a fair bit further if he wanted). Trying to keep up with what he achieves would grind me down in no time, particularly the politics/networking aspects. I'd rather "quite" like my job and be largely invisible

[I]I think the vast majority of people at the top of large (and small) organisations have chosen work over everything else. I think if you want to get to the top its more than likely that you would have to do the same, but just sacrificing everything else is not a guarantee it will happen.[/I]

Yep, I never had it in me - apparently I connected too easily with my staff...

I regularly left home on a Sunday and didn't return until Saturday, had a team of +50 spread across Europe and the world and earned serious money too. Very much enjoyed it, and the business was doing well (ie shareprice quadrupled in the 5 years I was there).

Did make sure though that the only weekend work I ever did was travelling, and also never worked at home after leaving work. Would much rather get it done and then leave.

But obviously didn't have 'what it took', and was laid off in the 'crunch'.

More than happy now though, earning about a third and 15 minutes from home.

Nobody ever writes on their deathbed "I wish I'd worked more..."

This gets rolled out all the time.

I bet a lot of people on their death bed also say "I wish I'd pushed myself harder at work and not drifted".

[img] [/img]

Take a high tech approach. Behold:

[img] [/img]

^ that's great, I need one of them.

I think you have to be quite strong to stand up to what feels right for your family, in spite of the onslaught of the more hours is better corporate mentality. It's all too common for bosses to want to create clones of themselves, without realising their own faults.

Do you ever wander about on the floors and speak to people ? Do you attend low-level team meetings from time to time, just to say hello and ask them what they are doing ? None of these things take that much out of your day. Some really good leaders I have worked with did that kind of thing.

^This

No one on this thread truly knows what your boss means by "more visible" but having had an MD a couple of years ago who rarely if ever came in the office, to our current one who is frequently in the office engaging with ALL the staff, it makes a huge and positive difference to the team and the business if leaders are "more visible".

^ that's great, I need one of them.

...it would probably be cheaper to pay someone the minimum wage to walk around with an iPad!

Time to risk a flaming for being 'sensible', but this exchange stood out for me:

DT78 - Member

What is the most important thing in life for you?

Posted 12 hours ago #

Ben_H - Member

DT78 - Member
What is the most important thing in life for you?

Riding bikes!!!!

Surely that ought to have been "my wife and kids" then "riding bikes".

However, other than this I feel the OP's pain and I don't have a mega-job.

I can see things coming to a head at my workplace sometime - I don't know which way I would jump (which is the worrying thing). Depending on my mood I could easily grovel and promise my life away or tell them to stuff it on the spot!

^^^ Um... that was a joke about riding bikes being the most important thing in life!

I'm not "invisible" because I spend too much time riding bikes. 🙁

Family comes first, no if's or but's. You know as well as i do that if you were to be no longer required they would get rid of you. My advice would be to turn up, do your best for the 9 hours a day you're there and get back home as you are doing.

Some bosses almost obsess over this type of thing. If all else fails, there are other jobs.

Stay as you are and dont worry.

I think it is about working smarter and not harder. If your boss gives you that feedback, it probably means you are focusing on the wrong things and not that they want you to work harder or be away more.

Try delegating all the day to day stuff and free yourself up to be talk to people, be seen more and be less "busy".

I bet a lot of people on their death bed also say "I wish I'd pushed myself harder at work and not drifted"

I get the "at your level you need to be at your desk" talk occasionally mostly when I've had time out of the office for medical appointments (I have had serious illness in the past and require regular checkups etc which the company knew about when I joined) even though I've opened up the office at 08:00 virtually every weekday for 4 years and I'm often locking it back up at 18:30.

I just normally remind my boss that I work smart and that if my teams can't work without me for an hour or two then there's bigger problems to solve than me not being at my desk! Obviously this only works because the teams I 'manage' are actually very easy to work with because they are all excellent at their jobs and deliver high quality output and hit > 95% of their deadlines.

Ben_H - Member

^^^ Um... that was a joke about riding bikes being the most important thing in life!

I'm not "invisible" because I spend too much time riding bikes.

I was just checking as you can't hear the tone of someone's voice or see their facial expression as they say something on a forum.

Still, all the best to you OP - think of it like this - [u]who[/u] do you work for. If it is for your family (as it ought to be) then you just need to work out if they will truly appreciate this later on, or whether you should step the work back a bit.

I hope you work it out - at least you had to get to your level to find yourself in this situation - I have a fairly middling job managing two people and find myself having to balance things!

"I wish I'd pushed myself harder at work and not drifted".

I'd rather spend more time with my wife and kids. Each to their own.

fwiw.... I think you are fine as you are, if the work is getting done to a high enough standard

I used to have a fairly important job/career. Got made redundant, relocated, have done various "lower" jobs while the kids have been small that have given us a great work/life balance - turned down promotions and transfers that would have kick started a proper career again, but would have missed out on the kids.

Kids now 12 and 9, and are turning out great. But I'm nearly 47, stuck in a job I now hate and with no career path internally or externally, and I have 20 years to fill before pension age.

I have absolutely no regrets about refusing to climb the greasy pole and putting family first, but I've left myself in limbo, not kept my skills up to date and it's a big scary world out there at the moment for anyone thinking of jumping ship or trying something different.

I was just checking as you can't hear the tone of someone's voice or see their facial expression as they say something on a forum.

🙂

Hi. Don't make this a personal issue, I would imagine you are not alone in receiving this 'sound' advice from a manager who manages people in a passive\aggressive manner.

Continue to remain professional, which it sounds like you are and just continue with your role - seek clarification to any matters via email.

Needless worrying will ruin the quality time you have with your family, which is far more important!

Must be really hard working for a [s]bird[/s] woman like that, how would you score her performance ? marks out of two 😈

It's ace being somewhere where work/life balance is legally enforced, and societal pressures mean that everyone does it to some degree.

Senior directors taking 6-12 months parental leave and only working 80% when they come back, so they can spend a whole extra day a week with their kids.

Or buggering off for a week and being completely out of touch.

Colleagues with kids of any age arriving and departing at odd times to fit in with nursery/school/stuff. No one even comments. Not turning in because kids are sick. No problem, let someone know and they'll cover for you......

It's mad. Dunno how businesses manage. 😉

If you are involved in UK public sector, or work closely with it, then point your boss (and your entire organisation) in the direction of TW3 - not the London postcode, but "The Way We Work".

[url= http://www.flexibility.co.uk/issues/TW3-Guide-to-Smart-Working-in-Government.htm ]TW3[/url]

If you aren't implementing this, then you are wasting tax payer money in many ways.

Increasing your visibility by being in the office more is a management culture that belongs in the 1980s. Your visibility in a modern, efficient, organisation is about what you deliver, not your hours in the office.

yeah Op say what richardK just said to your boss and les us know how you get on. 🙂

How much money do you need each month? I started working for myself after leaving employment with a big firm, and 5 years on I work part time and have 3 full days a week with my son and wife, plus home by 4pm the 3 days I do work.

I can't see the logic in working more hours to make more money when the reason I would be doing it is for my family. My time means much more to them

Interesting to see central government advice about flexible working and all this about importance of work life balance and not staying after 5.
I though the government had recently proclaimed that normal working hours were 7am-10pm Monday to Friday and till 5pm on Saturday.

Are we missing the obvious- you're away overnight and your boss said [u]she[/u] wants to see more of you.....

Its a modern fallacy that you can balance these things - you cant, except in exceptional circumstances. High jobs generally require significant commitment, bloody hard work and sacrifice. The higher you go, then harder it gets and yes (sadly) family time gets sacrificed.

So in honesty, it comes down to a personal decision as to where your priorities lie - and they may/will change over time.

As an employer, its also pretty easy to judge

Well, I'm sorry to say but if it's anything like the company I work for them high profile job and work life balance don't come hand in hand. They don't pay the big bucks for you to spend time with the family. I'm at that point, one level below company senior staff so got a reasonably good work life balance but any higher and it swings significantly the wrong way, so that's it for me, I'll stick where I am.

My observations of senior management is that being visible is all about walking around all day telling people what a great job they do and how busy they are rather than just cracking on and doing your job.

LOL I am NOT cut out for the corporate world!
Got plenty of billable work done early O clock this morning and went riding this afternoon!
Skive to survive!

I had a bit of this when I moved out of the London office 'Will you be in the Office tomorrow' I'd get asked and reply 'Yes in my official office in Birmingham'. The fact 75% of staff and most of the partners worked in London kind of drove that behaviour..

Next step for me was Director. Never wanted to be a partner. Looked at other directors and thought 'nah, that's not for me, too lazy, too interested in other things, don't really like the firm that much' so left. The rewards were pretty good in terms of money and working on really interested engagements. The downsides were predictable and well documented in this thread.

I came to the conclusion I'd rather p!ss away what little talent I had in a rural backwater working for people I liked in an industry I respected and never being an employee of any firm. Sometimes I miss the high-wire, high0-acheivement stuff, but not often.

Sadly - especially when working for one of the big 4 consultancies - it was as much about 'show'n'tell' as any talent. You wanted to get on, you play the game, their ball, their rules.

There's always another option that I don't think has been mentioned yet...

... just ignore it

Managers even at the highest levels often aren't actually that great at the management side of the job and come out with nonsense with the misplaced aim of being motivating. It is always a possibility at least and might not require a complete reevaluation of your entire life!

DanW - Member

There's always another option that I don't think has been mentioned yet...

... just ignore it

Managers even at the highest levels often aren't actually that great at the management side of the job and come out with nonsense with the misplaced aim of being motivating. It is always a possibility at least and might not require a complete reevaluation of your entire life!

Interesting thread. Am in a middle management job at work. Good money (not going to make millions but don't really care) and reasonable hours. I'm actually at the point now with a young son that if they offered me promotion at work i would be very likely to turn it down. Having seen the hours some of them do i am not interested even for more money. Thankfully we were sensible in getting a small mortgage so it means we can manage happily now. Also my wife makes it known when i do spend a bit too much time at work.

I just hope you get it sorted at work, part of me wonders if your boss had any idea of exactly what he was saying. Many of them don't

When push comes to shove your employer will screw you over. Your kids will give you a hug then ask for coco pops. It's not easy but family first.

As with others, if you've managed to get to a senior position without thinking about this sort of thing then you're in the wrong game.

Six figure salaries come with expectations. There is nothing wrong with your career being important to you, but you have to be smart to get the best out of it. TBH if you've been given that sort of chat it's time to get a 10 minute conversation with her for the direct feedback on what she means by "visible".

You then have a decision: lean in and act on it, or actively choose to earn less/take lower responsibility somewhere else and sleep in your own bed every night.

In short: toughen up and take control of your work life balance.

Not a high profile job at all, but I was being asked to spend more & more time in work last year.
Which would you like to hear in 15 years from now?
Dad your company was really successful thanks to you when I was young.
Or
Dad you're the best dad I could wish for and you did loads with us.

Just worked it out: you're not managing upwards well enough.