High altitude climbing

What do you want to focus on?  What grabs you the most?  Do you want rock climbing at altitude, crampons/tools on steep hard snow/ice at altitude, or a snowy walk at altitude?

Or do you want to climb the highest thing you can climb?  Or get off grid, stay in huts and get away from it all, with a climby type adventure thrown in?

Also are you looking at Europe or possibly travelling further afield?

I'm guessing you'd like a nice walk rather than a full-on mountaineering experience? MB wouldn't be where I'd start, there are other much easier options. A guide is a very good idea, mainly just to keep you moving at the necessary pace and through any rope sections with minimum faffage.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/en/the-best-4000m-peaks-in-the-alps-for-beginners#:~:text=Breithorn%20%7C%204%2C164m&text=The%20Breithorn%20is%20the%20easiest,novice%20alpinists%20starting%20their%20careers.

Make sure you label your socks. Can I have your bikes if you get run over by a glacier?

If it's just a challenging walk (trekking summit) then Mount Toubkal in Morocco might be an option. There are others on the area also over 4000m. Wife and I did it. Was similar to the lakes technically but harder to breath. We did it in summer. You could organise that yourself.

Ras Dashen in Ethiopia was an amazing trip. Highest point 4500m and a few other smaller peaks above 4. Expensive and harder to get to though.

Mount Ararat in Turkey is over 5000but no experience of it.

For inspiration have a look at the big "adventure holiday" companies like KE, Exodus, Explore. You may decide they aren't for you but they do have inspiration.

Most popular alpine peaks are pretty popular, so you'll find that in good weather, it'll be busy. Mont Blanc is obviously worse, due to it being the highest in Europe.
Yes, you absolutely can hire a guide. I would strongly recommend it if you don't have a background in climbing.
You need to be very fit. Alpinism, that's what you're talking about doing btw, is utterly knackering. It's also pretty dangerous. Don't underestimate it at all.
Something like this would be a good course - https://www.jagged-globe.co.uk/climb/course/i/alps+intro+chamonix.html
It's also very weather dependant, so unless you've got plenty of time and money, might not be ideal.
I've done a few Scottish winter seasons and two trips out to the Alps (3 4000ers in that), plus 15 odd years of climbing. I'd just stick to rock climbing if it was me.

Or you could go the other way and do low-altitude climbing - somewhere like the Lyngen Alps or Lofoten in Arctic Norway.  As much technical climbing as you fancy, proper remoteness, lack of crowds, edge of the world feeling, but without that pesky lack of oxygen.

I'd like to stay here for the night (it popped up on my YT feed awhile ago)

Another link with a bit more info.

https://uk.garmont.com/post/ascent-to-capanna-margherita-de.html

Ecrins in France would be (was) my first area of interest. Beautiful, mostly unspoiled and relatively quiet. Maybe get in contact with Jerry Gore at Alp Base and see who he recommends as a guide. They'll take you on something that suits your experience and the conditions. It's hard work trying to climb/scramble at 3500m+ and it's probably a good idea to have the basics of climbing and ropework sorted first but there are some very rewarding 'snow plod' F grade routes available that don't need much/any of that. Have a crack at a PD route once you're up to speed on the basics.

https://www.alpbase.com/

A popular 4000m trip there https://undiscoveredmountains.com/dome-des-ecrins-mountaineering-trip-alps

Or do you want to climb the highest thing you can climb?

Yes.

I do have a climbing background, but it was a long time ago. I have no interest in doing anything technically demanding but a UK winter grade II for example I have done no bother (and would not be even now), grade III I would have to approach with more care these days. So I don't mind tricky sections and I can handle my gear (with a bit of a refresher) but for me mountaineering is all about the summit. But it does need ice and snow 🙂

I'm also risk averse (which is why I never ventured above HVS on UK rock and didn't really enjoy trying) so I probably need somewhere with good emergency response even if it's from a satellite widget. So Sweden/Norway could work nicely, USA, parts of Canada I guess, or the Alps which of course have the significant benefit of being close. I would rather like to do Elbrus but not so much that I'll put up with travel risks.

The one I did in the Alpes when I was 15 was (I think) Le Grand Bec at 3,300m ish. I didn't notice any issues breathing. Ok so I was young but I am a lot fitter and stronger now.

I do have a climbing background,

Ok .. Ignore my last post then - Nepal trekking peaks maybe, 5-6000m?

Ok .. Ignore my last post then

I dunno I'm not averse to a walk, although I was when I was younger. What we used to call Alpine style climbing appeals to me, by which I mean moving together rather than pitches.

Thing is, I'm not sure I could come up with a partner with any experience.

Island Peak and/or Mera Peak
(depending on if you trust Nepalese emergency response infrastructure)

Ok .. Ignore my last post then – Nepal trekking peaks maybe, 5-6000m?

If we're talking Annapurna then I think the challenge is mostly the altitude. The terrain wasn't particularly hard but lordy it was difficult to breathe up there.

Oh, and in my case, the blizzard made it more challenging than I would've liked ..

Yeah I like to think I can handle altitude - I've been biking quite high up too - but 6k is a lot!

What we used to call Alpine style climbing appeals to me, by which I mean moving together rather than pitches.

That should be fine on a low grade Alpine route and appeals to me much more than a jumar up a Nepal trekking peak, though the overall travel experience to Nepal can be something else. Something similar in the Karakorum would be my dream trip right now.

For the Alpine style trip I'd go to the Ecrins and aim lower in altitude, still a great experience. Or maybe you just need to find the right guide to have a go at something higher.

If we’re talking Annapurna then I think the challenge is mostly the altitude. The terrain wasn’t particularly hard but lordy it was difficult to breathe up there

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapurna

Along with K2 and Nanga Parbat, Annapurna I has consistently ranked as one of the most dangerous of the principal eight-thousander summits. Climbers killed on the peak include Britons Ian Clough in 1970 and Alex MacIntyre in 1982, Frenchman Pierre Béghin in 1992, Kazakh Anatoli Boukreev in 1997, Spaniard Iñaki Ochoa in 2008,[23] Korean Park Young-seok in 2011[24] and the Finn Samuli Mansikka in 2015

There are quite a few things in the Andes and Nepal that aren't technically difficult but are very high.

It'll likely cost a fair bit though

Kilimanjaro (5,895m) and Aconcagua (6,960m) are pretty popular as they are not too difficult technically and there are quite a few trekking companies who will take you there.

Colorado 14ers? Pick your poison.

I did exactly this in the summer.

Booked a week's guiding with Icicle Mountaineering, based in Chamonix with the end target of the Matterhorn.

I'm no climber, but I'm in good shape and have a background in industrial access, so with a couple of weekends skills prep work beforehand, I was in a good place (I also have a decent head for heights)

The 'horn didn't work out (too much snow, all the fixed gear was still buried), but had a grand old time smashing out some of the Chamonix classics, finishing off with Dent du Geant, which satisfied my requirements of 4k+m, pointy, bit of hands on rock, some pucker factor.

The good bits were truly amazing; the bad bits were a bit rubbish - mostly down to how busy all the routes were (genuinely had no idea it got that bad). DduG in particular was a complete bunfight and the solitude of the mountains very much noticeable by its absence. But still it was very cool thing to have done, and I'm trying to figure out if I can afford to do it again next summer, but probably not in Cham...

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54066864626_542e63ec57_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54066864626_542e63ec57_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

*that* shot - Aiguille Entreves

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54067144148_42104c7121_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54067144148_42104c7121_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

This. Is. Why. (Dent du Geant is the spike on the RH end of the ridge in the background)

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54067124503_7bf76eea8e_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54067124503_7bf76eea8e_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

T'top. Barely room to swing a cat...

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54067128018_5a62462367_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54067128018_5a62462367_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

Like Saturday afternoon in Tescos

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54067331460_639c85f3f1_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54067331460_639c85f3f1_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

Just came up that.

I’ve not done it but Island peak in Nepal would be perfect. No jumaring just lots of snow. A colleague, with your kind of experience, said it was life changingly brilliant. A female friend did it with almost no climbing experience. Both in guided groups. We trekked in the area getting upto over 5000m just walking as a vile no guide. Loved it so much

https://www.flickr.com/gp/john_clinch/od7sY8376w

IMHO with the odd easily anticipated exception climbing in the lower E grades is generally safer than in the lower grades

I spent 3 weeks in Ladakh at around 3300m doing some community type work (bit of building, a bit of teaching) with a group of kids from work. After about 10 days we did a 3 day trek through one of the walking passes that topped out at 4500m

Before the trip like you I'd always fancied some high level trekking/climbing. In truth.....I loathed the experience. I had never appreciated how debilitating altitude was. It appears to impact people differently with those you'd expect to be great to sometimes suffering most.

My memories are mostly of feeling terrible  both in terms of feeling sick and fluey with a headache and every footstep uphill being such a slog. And I was only at a poxy 4500m.  All this whilst nominally in charge of a bunch of kids (well I was an adult in charge with a WML which is worthless there but with a hired in guide team doing the actual leading). I was so disappointed with myself.  It completely put me off doing anything like that for me rather than for work. Altitude for me just seems to ruin what should be one of my favourite pastimes. You might be built differently....but you'd need to go prepared it might not be what you expected.

I've heard it said many times, but don't know if it's  apocryphal, but smokers often adapt better to it than non smokers.

I was having similar thoughts last night as I've started reading an Everest book. I love the winter climbing I've done in Scotland and would be happy with opportunities too just so more of it, but would also love to try something bigger and more expedition-y. Time might be running out approaching late 40's but reckon I'm still in the park. Dolomites is where I'd fancy going.

Something around Cervinia and the Matterhorn/ Monte Cervino? I've stayed in the Rifugio Guide Del Cervino several times (albeit having snowboarded there) at 3,480m and there's always folk walking in on some big high altitude journey.

https://www.rifugioguidedelcervino.com/

I'd imagine there are high alpine tours that take in these refuges

If you want non technical but high and you are prepared to ignore the climate impact of getting there, Andean  volcanoes are an option. Ecuador has a few as does Chile and Bolivia.  The highest I got up was Parinacota at 6336m but I have climbed others.

https://volcano.si.edu/volcano.cfm?vn=355012#:~:text=Volcán%20Parinacota%20is%20the%20southernmost,low%20saddle%20to%20the%20NE.

I will try and dig out some of my photos from when I went as a kid. There are a few special ones in there if I can find them. Maybe someone can identify where we went 🙂

I'm not sure the Alps really qualifies as 'high altitude', technically speaking I mean, it's obviously significantly higher than anything in the UK. Things, ime anyway, start feeling proper high above around 4,000m or so. Anyway, I'd like to put a vote in for the Andes - if you want somewhere high but not technically difficult, Ecuador's pretty good. Cotopaxi is pretty much a kid's drawing of a snow-capped volcano made flesh, Chimborazo is higher, but not really as pretty, both high and atmospheric but not technically hard at all. Or something like Huayna Potosi or Illimani in Bolivia, a bit more jagged and stunning. Lots of guiding options, check out the likes of Jagged Globe for example.

The problem with climbing at higher altitudes is that it takes a while to acclimatise, so you really need to put aside at least two and preferable three or four weeks to do it safely. It also seems to be the case that some people simply don't acclimatise well above 4,000m or so. A mate of mine who was a pretty good climber was like this, he simply never really got used to the altitude and pretty much ground to a halt as he got higher up.

Or Nepalese trekking peaks would be a good call too.

I'd absolutely do it if you can, it's like being in a different universe. Proper sharpen your sense of wonder stuff.

The other thing about the Alps is that they're becoming increasingly dangerous as the permafrost holding them together melts. The thing that puts me off Mont Blanc isn't the technical difficulty - it's not - or the altitude, it's not that high, it's the objective danger, crossing the Grand Couloir on the normal route for example, looks a bit like playing Russian roulette with fridge-sized rocks. - some scary videos on YouTube. Lots of rockfall in summer generally. Oh, and lots of people, particularly on popular routes. But with a guide, I guess it would be relatively safe.

In honesty the Andes feels a lot safer to me, big, often technically easy peaks with relatively predictable conditions.

I’ve heard it said many times, but don’t know if it’s  apocryphal, but smokers often adapt better to it than non smokers.

It seemed to help Don Whillans - think the/his theory was that smokers' lungs mean they're already adapted to managing with lower oxygen levels. I suspect in reality this is bobbins, but who knows.

I've done lots of Alps peaks.

As someone above, I think the Barre des Ecrin is a classic 4000m peak long summit ridge at a lower grade. You'll really feel like you achieved something, but technically straightforward. I've done it twice.

Doufourspitze was also good, 2nd highest peak in euro Alps and much less frequented than MB. We did cresta rey, but descended standard route which I thought would be pretty good as an accent.

I've never been attracted to MB, probably having to book the huts months in advance and the crowds generally.

I’ve mooched around most of the big mountain ranges around the world, and the best bang per buck if you’re only going to do one is to go to the Khumbu area in Nepal. You can climb a trekking peak if you’re keen to get to the top of something with crampons on, but just trekking over the high passes is the most enjoyable for most visitors I think. Go in November and you’re almost guaranteed good weather and the most spectacular views.

always fancied some high level trekking/climbing. In truth…..I loathed the experience. I had never appreciated how debilitating altitude was.

This. Well, ok I didn't loathe it, but adding a bit of altitude to climbing just ruins it for me.

T’top. Barely room to swing a cat…

Barely enough room to swing a compass! Sorry, but bugger that! Various orifices were puckering up just looking at the photos.
[img] [/img] [img] [/img]

I’ve cycled up to 10,250’, 3,124m, and a last little push at the end had me very worried, pains in my chest, my vision started to go dark with sparkly lights flashing in my vision, but lots of deep inhaling got everything under control. It made me realise what is meant by high altitude effects, and low oxygen pressure. It didn’t help that the temperature dropped and it started to snow, and there was me in a cycling top and shorts! Going back down was much easier, and it was 70° in the village, everyone sitting around eating pizza.
This was in Vail, btw.

A wise man climbs Fuji once. A fool climbs it twice.

An easy walk in summer but a significant undertaking in winter. Not really "climbing" though, just a big icy walk.

For those talking about Annapurna up there^, he's not doing that... There is a cheeky little trekking peak just before arrival on the Annapurna base camp trek, Fluted Peak. Quite pointy, plenty of snow and 6500m. Tent Peak is also nearby.

I'd have thought Moly would be best knocking off a couple of the easier 4000m Alpine peaks (e.g. Breithorn, Bishorn etc) that sort if thing and if he still lusts after altitude, try something a bit bigger/more remote/more difficult to get to.

Yeah, the Alps are also much easier to get to. I'm not likely to spend 3 weeks of annual vacation away from my family acclimatising to altitude in Nepal and blowing the family budget three times over. I can however imagine all of us going to France and they can sit around eating bread and cheese whilst I spend a few days on a climb.

The problem with a cheeky week away for significant altitude is that you wouldn't get time to acclimatise.

How about Elbrus? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Elbrus

Highest in Europe (never mind Blanc looks from the Alps), 5642m, piece of piss,. I know two people who've done it. Though it is in Russia and I personally wouldn't bother.

I would love to do Elbrus, but might not be the wisest location for a while.

The problem with a cheeky week away for significant altitude is that you wouldn’t get time to acclimatise.

Its doable in the Alps with a minimal amount of planned progression - first day take the lift up above 3000m just for a stroll around and an afternoon lounging in the sun. Second day a bit more ambitious, maybe an easy summit you can walk/scramble up to high 3000s.

Sleep low both times then most people should be good to go for hut nights and a proper 4000m summit unless you're unlucky with your physiology.

I've climbed Island Peak it's 6100 I think. Usual approach has collapsed last year I think but probably another way up it now. Also rode the Annapurna Circuit solo that goes 5600m at the highest. I pushed as fell over trying to pedal. You need time and money before anything else.

Nepal rescue services are excellent but helicopters want paying in advance so have lots of credit available as no pay no come get you! If you don't like travel,climbing risks and need on call rescue Himalayas may not be a good choice. But if you want big mountains it's the best choice.

The problem with a cheeky week away for significant altitude is that you wouldn’t get time to acclimatise.

We've used this option a few times to acclimatise,  altho there's no guarantee cos everyone is different.

Drive to Cervinia, catch the early morning cable car to Testa Grigia (3500m), walk up the piste to summit of Breithorn (4164m). This is def. the easiest 4000m peak in the alps and only about 3hrs round trip. you can walk most of it unroped up the side of the piste ski runs. You cross a couple of piste and then rope up and do the final summit slope. I’ve done it with 4 others as acclimatisation and we were back in Cervinia before any of us got altitude headaches, so I’m pretty confident the same in your case. Don’t make any plans for the afternoon as you’ll probably not feel great. 

You could do something similar in chamonix going up to the high cable car station there (can't recall the name right now). The advantage with the other option is you get up a 4000m peak

'Ti's true. I soloed the Breithorn whilst my climbing chums had lunch 🙂

Toubkal was a great trip. Did it with MrsDTs before kids in 2006 I think.

Easy to fly there from most of UK I think, we were on the first flight from BRS to MAR. There was even a band there to welcome us!

Feels proper foreign, and has a different culture, and very different landscape to Euro Alps. We did it in Spring but very late snowfall made it seriously cold and very snowy/icy. Used to being at altitude skiing but 4k m was a good intro. Felt hard but wasn't difficult or challenging climbing wise.

Not busy at all for us at the time. Just us and a small bunch of UK scouts that were all an absolutely great bunch of kids. We had the summit to ourselves, just the three of us.

We did a 3 night / 4 day trek with guide, mule (Muffin, Obvs) and muleteer carrying our gear which was brilliant. We stayed in local houses some of which were very excited to be getting electricity for the first time the week after we were there.. Probably very different there now..

Edit. I went to see Kenton Cool last night. I have zero interest in anything like K2. It sounds bloody terrible. His comment was that when he did K2 in 2021 he was about 270th person to summit K2. This year the 750th person summited..

I've been up Mt Blanc a few times via different routes, always starting from the Midi, and various routes down.  Despite the moaning about the crowds, this that and the other I've always enjoyed it and found it good value. Never used a hut.  But I'm not sure I'd want to do it with a guide, rather get some experience and find a friend.

If you want a better trip with a guide I think I'd look at the Aiguille Verte BUT at the moment it's a dog of a walk as the Montenvers telepherique is still being repaired . Still.... https://www.chamonix-guides.com/en/activities/details/legendary-summit-aiguille-verte

I’ve heard it said many times, but don’t know if it’s apocryphal, but smokers often adapt better to it than non smokers.

Sounds like nonsense to me. How well/quickly* you adapt is largely down to genetics but you can stack the odds in your favour and get the most out of your genetics by being as fit as you can.

*These can be different things, some people that take longer to acclimatise actually do better in the end.

Sounds like nonsense to me. How well/quickly* you adapt is largely down to genetics but you can stack the odds in your favour and get the most out of your genetics by being as fit as you can.

Yep, quite. I seem to remember that Ed Viesturs, who went very well at altitude, also benefitted from having a colossal VO2 Max. Also, my mate who acclimatised appallingly badly, was also a smoker, a fit smoker, but still a smoker.

I went to see Kenton Cool last night. I have zero interest in anything like K2. It sounds bloody terrible.

I think there's a lot to be said for not climbing hard-ish things at extreme altitudes. Like not dying. There's some K2 stuff on YouTube that's quite sobering.

I think there’s a lot to be said for not climbing hard-ish things at extreme altitudes. Like not dying.

When I was a kid starting out climbing, I thought I'd get into Himalayan climbing. This was mainly because I'd read a bunch of books about it. Then I realised that it's just massively hard work both before and during. And also bloody scary. So I didn't.

Saas-Fee has a fine selection of 4000m peaks.

I have found it's more or less random who suffers from altitude sickness. I had to pull a pal who's a 30 year experienced Everest climbing IFMGA guide off the mountain at 5500m who suffered very uncharacteristically one year, but was fine around K2 the next. Diamox definitely helps acclimatisation and being fit makes the whole thing less miserable. Big mistake most people make is going too fast, too high, too soon.

Same as Supernova, a number of partners of various  physical  attributes, preparation etc. At the extremes I have one pal who I would consider to be generally slim athletic type  cycled to work every day etc who always suffers quite badly at relatively low alpine altitude, we were once pinned down for a few days in bad weather at monchjoch hutte 3658m after spending a few day working up to that altitude and he started to suffer from pulmonary Oedema (fluid in the lungs), we had to catch the train down to Grindelwald after a few days. A 2nd pal walked straight up to the Margherita hut 4554m and spent the night there without issue, he was pretty unfit and a recent reformed smoker/boozer.  So, it's a complete lottery IME at 3000m - 4800m euro alps sort of range.

I was plodding up a 5000m ridge line on an acclimatising day and felt what I can only describe as a grape being squashed in my head. Instantly lost all depth perception and felt totally exhausted. Told my climbing partner I was ok and I'd wait for him to come back down. Wobbled back down several hours later and could barely walk the next day. Spent most of the day sat next to a horse in a tea house kitchen by the fire. It was cold out and the horse wanted to be warm!

Next day felt great and got going again, joys of altitude, go up slow come back alive.

I ride MTB and Road a bit with this guy, if you're looking for someone UK based to put something together for you.

Everything from Lakeland Craggs to Everest Summit.

https://www.robinbeadle.com/