[Closed] Hi-Fi upgrades - worthwhile, or emperors new clothes? (turntable content)

Cool. Well, if you think it sounds nice now, it'll sound even better with stands and a rack 🙂

Enjoy!

Sam

[feeling more mellow today]

Truth about 'Hi-Fi', is that unless you have an acoustically optimised listening room, it's not worth spending thousands on equipment, without knowing what works properly within the unique acoustic environment of you home etc. You could spend a lifetime 'auditioning' countless pieces of kit, then maybe find that a £500 set up actually sounds better than stuff costing 10 or more times than that. All the different surfaces, soft furnishings, materials etc will affect the acoustics, so it's about finding the right balance for the kit you have, than throwing money at the 'problem'. You can change how a set up sounds by moving or angling speakers by just a small amount, or moving furniture around, as well as replacing cheap chipboard shelving and the like with heavier mdf stuff. The type of plaster used in your walls has more effect on sound than many equipment 'upgrades' or modifications. Designing and making your own speakers can be far more beneficial than spending thousands on speakers made with totally different sets of acoustic parameters.

I moved house recently. My amp and CD player are c 20 years old, the speakers I bought 2nd hand but have had them 8 years. My hi-fi has never sounded better - so much more detail and seperation - and I've lived in several places with this setup. I've no idea quite what it is but the lounge is a big room hard wooden floors with rugs rather than carpet and the speakers are miles away from any walls. I also took a tip from Rusty Spanner on this forum about putting coins beneath the spikes on the speaker stands to give a solid platform for them to sit on. 8x 5p coins, probably the cheapest upgrade ever 🙂

i read an interesting thread this afternoon on 'proper' use of spikes.
to say its swayed my original understanding is an understatement.

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=165490

sorry if not allowed to link here, please delete if so.

That thread proves its easy to overthink hifi. Spikes just stop wobbling on carpets. Blu tack is much easier on hard floors.

That thread proves its easy to overthink hifi. Spikes just stop wobbling on carpets. Blu tack is much easier on hard floors.

Excellent, I just got my 40p back 🙂

It's mad though, how much better the same set up is in a different room

Truth about 'Hi-Fi', is that unless you have an acoustically optimised listening room, it's not worth spending thousands on equipment, without knowing what works properly within the unique acoustic environment of you home etc. You could spend a lifetime 'auditioning' countless pieces of kit, then maybe find that a £500 set up actually sounds better than stuff costing 10 or more times than that. All the different surfaces, soft furnishings, materials etc will affect the acoustics, so it's about finding the right balance for the kit you have, than throwing money at the 'problem'. You can change how a set up sounds by moving or angling speakers by just a small amount, or moving furniture around, as well as replacing cheap chipboard shelving and the like with heavier mdf stuff. The type of plaster used in your walls has more effect on sound than many equipment 'upgrades' or modifications. Designing and making your own speakers can be far more beneficial than spending thousands on speakers made with totally different sets of acoustic parameters.

This X1000. It's a load of toss. All people do with Hi-Fi is tweak frequency response.

What's worse is that in a blind A/B test people can't tell the difference tween the stuff piled on top of each other on the floor or sitting on a £5000 rack with acoustically damped marble plinths and carbon/brass ultra spikes.

I got a copy of the Nightfly for £3 recently - just had a look and my copy is mastered by Bob Ludwig. Can't remember if holy light came down from heaven when I listened to it or not though. Guess I should have another listen and see

Completely separate earth circuit ! It cost next to nothing to do and it made a huge difference. Expensive cables are just that, expensive and made very little difference.

Set up was LP12 with Pink Triangle power supply,NVA pre amp,two power supplies and two mono blocks amps with those huge NVA speakers on stands made out of girders. LP12 was on a dedicated Target stand rawbolted to an external wall and there was no furniture in the room apart from the shelves the albums were in and a one of those classic Ikea seats and foot stools.

It did not matter how shit my day had been (and some were very long and very shitty)30 to 45 mins in there and I came out calm and happy.

Does this story have a happy ending ? Nope, at my vinyl peak I had circa 380 albums including some very rare ones and as a result of having a "clean" and somewhat analytical system bit by bit I stopped listening to the music and became focused and later obsessed by the quality of the sound engineering and recording and I ended up with a handful of albums I deemed worthy of listening to ---- all very sad 😥

Then the house suffered a serious fire (insurance claim came to £172k)but my hi-fi survived without any real damage, just needed cleaning but the albums didn't do so well and ended up in a skip and as a result the system has now been in the loft for over 10 years.

All people do with Hi-Fi is tweak frequency response.

Here you go fellas, result of the days tinkering. In the limited space in have available I'm happy with the positioning now.
Speakers will be brought forward on stands in the coming weeks, then I'll be pimping the turntable with some of Mr Lims finest.
Stand mounted TT is sounding lovely already. Much more distinct bass notes, and stereo imaging improved. Even the Mrs is enjoying a bit of Robert Plant and sensational shape shifters with me.

[URL= http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae168/keepitsteel/1987578B-3ADC-4B74-ADE5-15E2FE163C02_zpshpzumxrd.jp g" target="_blank">http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae168/keepitsteel/1987578B-3ADC-4B74-ADE5-15E2FE163C02_zpshpzumxrd.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

pb2 - Member
Completely separate earth circuit ! It cost next to nothing to do and it made a huge difference

Details pls.

My music room was upstairs in a room with two external walls. From memory (I am going back to 2000) I drilled a hole through the wall and ran the largest diameter copper earthing cable I could find through to the outside. The cable was clipped to outside face of the exterior wall and I got a large steel spike knocked up by a blacksmith. The spike was hammered in to the ground so that only 3 or 4 inches were protruding and the earth cable was tethered to the spike. I cannot recollect the fine details of how I did the termination in the music room other the earth went in to something and the earth cables of the various components connected via a common rail to the junction box or what ever I used.

In the same way that we isolate the TT and speakers from vibration and movement, I was in theory partially isolating the hi-fi from electrical interference. I was very tempted to have a separate power circuit for my hi-fi but the fire stopped that. The separate earth circuit is a simple and cheap experiment as long as you have access to an external wall and it follows, its easier and cheaper if your hi-fi is on the ground floor.

Actually some of us use hi-fi to listen to music.

You can do that with an iPod. You don't need a $500 record player made out of kitchen counter top and €1000 loud speakers with €50 drivers.

It's a total joke. Only medium psychic shows take the piss out of the public more.

Here you go fellas

You can do that with an iPod. You don't need a $500 record player made out of kitchen counter top and €1000 loud speakers with €50 drivers.

It's a total joke. Only medium psychic shows take the piss out of the public more.

Best advice I saw on the subject was 'save your money and buy music instead'. Yes.

But, the gear! The wonderful gear!

To be fair it looks like OP has trod that line between budget bargains and overpriced stuff pretty well with that setup.

Or you could buy a Hifi and buy loads of music too, it's not mutually exclusive. I can say for certain that a good hifi is well worth having.

Your earth circuit is the legal requirement for the earth circuit for every house (in France at least), pb2. The chassis of any component that doesn't have an earth will probably benefit from earthing but earth is earth is earth and connecting all the other components to any component that has an earthed chassis will do the same. If no component is earthed then any metal water pipe in the house will do as they have to be connected to earth too.

You can do that with an iPod. You don't need a $500 record player made out of kitchen counter top and €1000 loud speakers with €50 drivers.

Speaker stands ordered today!

Folks, I've been offered a Rega DAC for a good price. I literally know next to nothing about these devices, other than this Rega unit has some blinding reviews, plus I'm constantly being told I need a DAC.
My idea is to store my entire CD collection in a lossless format, plus any downloads on a hard drive, and interrogate this via a tablet of some description, creating playlists to send to DAC.
Therefore I think the Rega fits the bill - but is it overkill ?
I like the idea of pairing it with my Rega TT, plus it seems to have plenty of I/O so compatibility with ether my old school marrantz amp or Cambridge Audio amp should be fine.
Thoughts?

If you want a bargain DAC then there is a Maplin one that's well worth a look:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/digital-to-analogue-audio-converter-a14kf

Not the most elegant looking thing but sounds surprisingly good.

Apart from, you know... I also absolutely recommend:

http://www.isobluehifi.com/

Actually, going back to what I said about The Music Works/ Audio Works stands that I like, that isoblue seems to follow a similar vein to their original racks. i.e. a certain amount of de-coupling and a lightweight, but very dead material.

(Music Works started off with Quadraspire and kept modding).

I'm assuming Mr Woppit has an affiliation, but as this seems to be a budget thread, I'll have to leave the company I work for off 🙂

I've just gone out and bought a secondhand pair of Monitor Audio RS1's because of this thread.

Fancied a pair for years.
Setting them up now.

It's my Christmas Prezzy, traded in my old Missions too. 🙂

nice one Rusty Spanner. Glad I could be of service 🙂

i've had my stereo on pretty much non-stop for last three days. TV is dead to me now (although i nearly bought one of those Maplin DAC's yesterday to get my TV signal to the amp - but plumped for a £10 jobbie on ebay instead)

Don't know anything about digital sorry. What stands did you go for?

Atacama Moseca 7 in white. Love the look, reviews are great. Will probably last me 20 years!

I'm in no position to change anything about my audio system, a Yamaha DXP-AX2 with Sony SA-VE835ED 5.1 satellites and sub, music sources are my Cambridge Audio DVD-99, an old Sony MDS-JB940 Minidisc recorder, and my Mac Mini, inputs from all of them into the amp are optical.
I've wondered for some time whether any advantage is to be had from using a DAC, probably between the Mac and the amp, as that's the primary music source.
I don't have the funds for anything fancy, something like the Maplins one would be optimum, so, any significant advantage to be gained, or is the Yamaha's on-board DAC perfectly adequate for what I'm doing with it?

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Santas visited early

Edit: shit, someone's gone and listed an RP25 minus arm for £200 on ePay.. I love the look of them, I wonder if my RB250 can do it justice?.. Would be a nice potential upgrade from my plinth and motor

Thanks for that, I bought it......

Back to rub it in!

CZ - just buy it, open it carefully, try it and if you don't like the sound, take it back 🙂

You'll love this guys.

A man of my virtues.. I only went and bought the RP6 mentioned earlier in the thread..
''rolling eyes emoticon''

I carried out the upgrades on my trusty Planar 2, and after settling in the sub-platter has given me a better soundstage and much better lower and higher frequncy response - bordering on astonishing.
But..
I cant fit the twin belt arrangement, as when I do the suspended nature of my Planar motor means there is too much torque provided by both belts and the motor wobbles - visibly. Which in turns results in wow and flutter on playback.
So..
new 24v motor? new isolated motor mount, plus new TT-PSU? or for just a few more pennies.. a new Rp6 with even more theoretical performance to be gained (with TT-PSU included)

I viewed the RP6, it looked simply marvelous, so the Planar 2 sell-off begins.

What the hell. I can't wait to spin some vinyl on it.

CZ - the general consensus is that a DAC will improve the sound. Smaller and cheaper options specifically for computer based systems would be the Dragonfly. Again, had good reviews but I haven't heard one myself.

Personally, I sit somewhere in the middle of the hifi debate. I love the look of a lot of the more expensive kit and it is sometimes nice to go and listen. However, it all feels a bit like the laws of diminishing returns as yes, they can sound a "bit better" - bus it is better enough to warrant spending hundreds or thousands of pounds on it? My view is no. It helps that I don't really have the cash to be able to do much about it anyway! Having said that, I did acquire a pair of B&W CM6 S2 speakers recently and I have to say that they really are very nice. I was surprised at myself as I have generally not been a fan of B&W at all. However, their new S2 speakers are significantly improved over their previous offerings and really rather good. During my demos I was playing music through my 19 year old Rotel amp and, all things considered, it did a bloody marvellous job. Yes, at some point I would like to change it but for now it is doing a very admirable job. I did contrast it with a new Arcam FMJ A19 and the difference was not very noticeable at all.

However, spending "a bit" of money on reasonable hifi equipment will deliver a sound that helps you to appreciate the music more. You do miss out on some of the pleasure of music if you insist on listening through cheap equipment. But you don't need to spend a fortune to get something that sounds very pleasing.

Question - what's the best source for a quality DAC other than a PC?..

I'm interested in going a DAC route, but don't want to use a PC/laptop as the interface.
Ideally i'd use a tablet or similar to create playlists etc, and access files via a portable hardrive.
Is this a common set-up and easily achievable? What software is required?

(oops, that's 3 questions)

What i'm getting at is (having never used or seen a DAC system set-up) I don't understand how you categorise your music - review it - add to it - and stream it - unless you're logged into a PC with a Media Player type program running.

Ideally i'd use a tablet or similar to create playlists etc, and access files via a portable hardrive.
Is this a common set-up and easily achievable? What software is required?

I've just bought one of these: http://www.whathifi.com/cambridge-audio/minx-xi/review

Half price from Richer Sounds - £300

It's bloody great - you can use your phone to make playlists from a NAS or portable hard drive, stream internet radio and listen to iplayer/ podcasts. I downloaded a 24 bit album (Daft Punk) and it sounded fabulous.

I also have my bluray and tv recorder connected via digital, and they sound great too.

Typically the best "source" is a NAS device on your home network. That way it is always on and not dependent on your PC being switched on to access it. Most new streamers will happily read content from the NAS. The streamers have the DAC built in to them.

The software bit for playlists etc can be either something provided by the NAS (that can be used to create playlists etc) or you use the app that is associated with the streamer / DAC you are using.

Some streamers will provide a basic UI / screen interface that will let you scroll through the content it is finding on your NAS.

All depends how far you want to take it really.

For example my Yamaha AV receiver can connect to my NAS and play the music presented to it. However, I am not sure I would want to use it as a pure music player as the quality will be better going through a better DAC into my hifi ie I am not wowed by the quality. Not purchased yet but I anticipate buying a hifi based streamer at some point to allow me to stream from the NAS where I will have my CDs that have been ripped to FLAC.

As a general observation I am not convinced that the DACs provided in most computers / laptops is all that good when compared to those dedicated to music systems.

I am sure a host of more knowledgeable people will be along shortly to provide more detailed advice / observations. 🙂

Not purchased yet but I anticipate buying a hifi based streamer at some point to allow me to stream from the NAS where I will have my CDs that have been ripped to FLAC.

I've started doing that - my observation is they do sound exactly the same as the original CD - whether good or bad. The 24bit recording is a noticeable step up though.

I am sure a host of more knowledgeable people will be along shortly to provide more detailed advice / observations.

my god, if that's the dumbed down version then i'm doomed.

Where is the best place for idiots to learn all about DAC / NAS etc? Until last week I had no idea what DAC even stood for..

I'm lead to believe the sound quality surpasses CD - and there is a considerable convenience factor to consider when set-up correctly. I just don't know where to begin.

I like the look (and probably the sound) of the REGA DAC for example. I was thinking about looking into one of these as an addition to my Hi-Fi - and a way to play my CD library once successfully ripped in high format.
where does one access 24-bit files? what's the associated cost? am I too old and curmudgeonly for all this? would a CD collection not easily suffice, or do I need to embrace DAC/24 bit for all its benefits?

I've started doing that - my observation is they do sound exactly the same as the original CD - whether good or bad. The 24bit recording is a noticeable step up though.

Which streamer are you using and what did you use to rip the CDs? EAC or MediaMonkey?

A CD player has a DAC built in to convert the digital dots to an analogue signal to feed to the Hi-Fi amp and speakers. The main reason to use a NAS and stream the music is convenience-no racks of CD's cluttering up the lounge. A NAS is only a hard drive which is also wi-fi enabled so music can be accessed either wirelessly or via cable to a player of some sort.If you copy your music to FLAC files and put them on the NAS it still has CD quality. To listen you need a Streamer ,PC or player to access these files. This must have a DAC built in or enable an output to a separate DAC to feed the Amp.If it is a cheap streamer then something like the Rega DAC is a good upgrade. If it is a more expensive streamer then it's probably good anyway. I don't know but I would assume a PC doesn't have a particularly good DAC. I use a Logitech Squeezebox Touch (now inexplicably discontinued) with an Audiolab M.Dac and it sounds superb.
Re-above post-I use EAC

My buddy in Northants has a Slim Devices Transporter, and it sounds fantastic. It finds and plays tunes from the NAS.

[img] [/img]

It was the early model, pre Logitech.

Now that looks cool.

I live the idea of streaming high q files. I'm just not sure I can do it without spending a small fortune, sounds like lots of devices needed to get end result with benefits over CD

Where is the best place for idiots to learn all about DAC / NAS etc? Until last week I had no idea what DAC even stood for..

You could try somewhere like AVForums to get a learn yourself background. Or, if you prefer the face to face approach think about popping into your local Richer Sounds or hi fi shop to have a chat with someone. I agree, it can all seem a bit bewildering at first!

I'm lead to believe the sound quality surpasses CD - and there is a considerable convenience factor to consider when set-up correctly. I just don't know where to begin.

For the most part a lot of this has bypassed us in the past because when we bought a CD player it included the DAC. It is only since the advent of digital streaming and the convenience of storing and playing the digital files directly rather than via a CD player that the need for external DACs appeared. If you have a CD collection and are happy to play CDs and fish them in and out of the payer then you could save yourself all the hassle of learning about DACs and streaming because you don't need to know it. The advantage of ripping CDs and storing them on a NAS is that it makes it quicker and easier (possibly) to navigate your music collection and play whatever you want. Or to create playlists composed of tracks from a variety of CDs - but to be able to play them at CD quality rather than the good old days or recording them all to tape. Oh, and then we get streaming music services such as Spotify or Qobuz and internet streaming radio stations which can benefit from DAC before they hit your hifi system.

So, after all that, it will come down to how you plan to listen to music which will determine what you do or don't need to buy. 🙂

Wow-that looks neat,never seen one of those before. I assume it has all the same functions as my Squeezebox but just a different form factor

They're hard to come-by these days. Many people think their sound is as good as anything ever made.

I doubt he'd ever sell his!

Which streamer are you using and what did you use to rip the CDs? EAC or MediaMonkey?

Cambridge Audio Minx xi and dbpoweramp.

Thanks for the answer BC.
In short, I listen every day, for between 2 and 8 hours. The TV barely gets a look in anymore.

Where does 24bit come in to this? I keep spotting reference to sound quality that surpasses CD.. Is this 24bit?

I will hit Richer Sounds with my ignorance at some point soon, just waiting for a quiet period as I know I'll be taking up a fair amount of their time 🙂

http://www.trustedreviews.com/Slim-Devices-Transporter-review

Great layman review of that squeezebox of tricks here.
Clears things up no end for me :-/

I know it's one subjective review , but makes me happy not to give up my CD player just yet.

I have also seen great reviews of the Rega DAC.

"I like budget giant slaying equipment" he says..

Never believe a word I say.
This months mortgage payment blown (and then some)

[URL= http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae168/keepitsteel/D5C860C1-1A8E-4671-8C21-9444CC22048C_zpsierwdvqi.jp g" target="_blank">http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae168/keepitsteel/D5C860C1-1A8E-4671-8C21-9444CC22048C_zpsierwdvqi.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

Earlier comments were right. Spend a bit more on a better TT rather than upgrade old one. I reckon this lot will end up costing me no more than £200 once I've sold my now redundant TT and bits off.
And I have my dream TT.

Couldn't believe it when I got home with the RP6 and found my fave colour plinth listed at half what I was going to pay. It's like I was meant to buy it..

Oh yeah, and then there were these..

[URL= http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae168/keepitsteel/A594D26B-80C8-46D5-9E0D-F7B065BFBC58_zps0tuuq6uy.jp g" target="_blank">http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae168/keepitsteel/A594D26B-80C8-46D5-9E0D-F7B065BFBC58_zps0tuuq6uy.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

Enjoy, dude 🙂

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Here's the Rega Planar 25 I got thanks to the earlier thread, thanks, its very nearly mint!

Also a 956BX Discrete and an Audiolab Pre/Power Combo?

I had the regular 965BX and it was ace. Me ol'man used a 8000A for ages and he really rated it.

Cool beans.

Well spotted Gofaster...965BX LE Discrete, owned from new, snapped up for £250 in a sale in 1996. 😀 I'll never sell it. Lovely. Got it re-clocked a few years back too.

Audiolabs were second hand about 9 years ago, driving AVI Biggatrons that came from a closing down studio. Warm detailed sources, analytical amps and speakers.

The Planar 25 replaced the Thorens 166 mk2 that (recently) got me back to vinyl after selling my Planar 3 about 9 years ago. That was an error, just glad I never parted with my records.

The 25 is lovely. Got an RB300 with clear audio sixstream rewire and interconnects on it as the 25 was armless.

P25 looks ace, I'm slightly envious. That was a really good deal, the RB300 must sound superb on it.
If I didn't have to splash out on an additional TT-PSU I would've snapped that plinth up.
As it is the deal I got on the P6 was too good to miss.
Happy days all round

Happy days indeed, must have listened to 5 or 6 hours of music yesterday alone!

Why would you need a PSU for the 25? Different hertz where you are? I thought they just changed the pulley wheel (33:45 bit)Could be wrong though.

Your P6 is lovely btw, post a photo when it's got its green plinth please. When I added up the TT (£200) arm (£160) and cartridge (£120) it's not that much of a bargain so I'm betting the P6 was the better deal, being the better table. Hope you enjoy it.

Will do, currently awaiting sourcing of 'sticky pad' in order to mount motor in green plinth.

Didn't you already have the arm waiting to go on the P25? I agree, not such a bargain if sourcing everything separately (although much prefer look of P25 to the P5 and 7), but if switchinghg bits over then a nice upgrade in sound and aesthetics for £200

No, arm was "new" too. So P25 was £360 (one went on ebay the other day for £340 so it's about right, no cartridge ) but my RB300 has Clearaudio six stream cable worth an apparent £450 8O, sure the cable looks much better than the standard tone arm wire and interconnects from my old Planar 3 with RB300.

Not sure I'd have paid that amount for some wire and someone to fit it so sort of convincing myself it is probably better than an RB600 that should have been on the P25.

It's all lovely though and sounds superb to me.

the "picture frame" around the P5 and P7 is pretty bad looking compared to the 25. What were they thinking.

http://www.oregonlive.com/music/index.ssf/2014/11/does_vinyl_really_sound_better.html

Picked up from
http://news.slashdot.org/story/14/12/14/1527220/vinyl-record-pressing-plants-struggle-to-keep-up-with-demand

It's pretty basic, but interesting nonetheless.

Some intersting and sensible comments for once - warts and all.

Interesting that vinyl is now being compared against streaming audio and mp3 rather than against CD.

I think that's because CD is largely over as a format.

@coolhandluke - 100% agree, the P25 is so much better looking than others of that ilk. Although, the picture frame versions still seem very popular!
Have you seen the current listed P5.. He's carried out some interesting 'mods' of his own.

I would love to know what the rewire on your arm actually translates to in terms of performance. Almost certainly not a £400 improvement leap (in relative terms). But it must sound better than standard, right? Other than adjustability, that's the thing I like about my new RB301, the phono lead is much more substantial and has a real quality feel over my old RB250 jobbie.
May make sod all difference to output but makes me feel good anyway!

Jools - until there's a sea change in ease of transfer from CD to equivalent quality streaming - I'll always turn to my (fairly substantial) CD collection for a fix.
Plus, CD's are available in abundance and super cheap, and can actually be interesting to collect different mixes and releases from through the years and listen to the changes.

I may of course change my mind, but I don't see me dropping my CD-63 for many years. Probably as I'm a lazy arse though, and I can't be bothered with all the new acronyms!

I would love to know what the rewire on your arm actually translates to in terms of performance. Almost certainly not a £400 improvement leap (in relative terms). But it must sound better than standard, right? Other than adjustability, that's the thing I like about my new RB301, the phono lead is much more substantial and has a real quality feel over my old RB250 jobbie.

I changed the wiring on the SME arm on my LP12 (to change it from a DIN connector mainly) but couldn't notice a difference other than it having better connectors etc. afterwards. I think I might have rewired the RB250 om my TD160 as well but again without any sonic difference being noticeable to me (the wiring was a bit rough previously - I hadn't been expecting to hear differences).

Given the low outputs that cartridges work at I could see the wiring making a difference, especially for a low-output MC. I've always used high output MC's and MM's though, which might be why I didn't notice anything.

On the vinyl v CV v streaming debate: My own view is that I generally prefer vinyl although probably not because it's better and/or more accurate but just because I prefer the sound (which is all that really matters to me). In my systems the turntables tend to be better (as in more expensive anyway!) than the CD players which could be a factor I suppose.

The streamer v CD thing is tougher though. Initially I wasn't that impressed with the sound quality from streamed output for anything other than background listening. When I stopped using iTunes and instead ripped my CD's again to a lossless format and introduced a DAC into the system the gap narrowed very significantly. I'd still say I prefer my best CD player (a Naim one) over the streamed output but I'd say it was at least a match for the other CD players I've got. Given the DAC I'm using was something like £30-40 (it's the Maplin one which looks very plasticy but sounds pretty good) that's a pretty good result. Quite possibly with a better DAC I'd prefer the streamed output to the Naim player as well. I certainly found that I was using the CD player a lot less once I had the streaming solution with the DAC in-place.

I don't have a streaming set-up in my London place yet but there I also find I don't listen to CD's much, instead using vinyl almost exclusively.

I prefer the sound of my streamed Sonos through my DAC to my CD player.

In fact, if it wasn't for the wife not being able to master the Sonos interface I would sell it.

In all of my my years in hifi I have never heard a decent turntable and I find it quite frustrating not to be able to join into the digital vs analogue debate, grrr....

Oh I've heard plenty of "decent" turntables. I have one. A Linn LP12/Ittok. I've yet to hear an "accurate" one though.

It's amazing how different peoples perceptions of what they hear differ (in a musical sense).

It also makes me a little sad when people say they haven't heard a quality TT set up. Through a good phono stage, with a quality source, vinyl sounds so lovely. To me, it does have an inherent warmth that is so often spoken of, but also, when I sit back and pick out all of the subtle details hidden deep in the groove, I'm genuinely amazed that a plastic disc with a needle being dragged through it can sound quite so brilliant.

I should add that I have a very limited understanding of sound quality and these are only observations based on my ear. Vinyl can never be accused of being a convenient source, and I'm sure a fairly large percentage of enjoyment for most listeners of vinyl is it's nostalgic and tactile nature.

I'm realistic about vinyl's abilities it isn't as capable of deep bass, I'd also argue it's not as dynamic as digital can be. On the other hand I for some reason just find vinyl more satisfying.

A record deck suffers from far worse crosstalk than a CD, much more compression, and also distortion from the needle only tracking squarely in the groove during a very small proportion of its travel through the grooves.

However it is the compression and the higher crosstalk that probably makes vinyl sound better in some cases.

Noel Keywood from one of the hifi mags made a device, called a Frankestein or similar, that introduced some more crosstalk on a CD players output and that seemed to get some approval, but not enough for the product to remain on sale for long.

People also rave about the quality of live radio 3 broadcasts on VHF, but that was a digital signal before transmission, and only 14 bits at that.

I would love to know what the rewire on your arm actually translates to in terms of performance. Almost certainly not a £400 improvement leap (in relative terms). But it must sound better than standard, right

No idea, but it looks a lot nicer than a standard RB300 arm wire and interconnect. The wires through the arm are incredibly fine. The interconnects are as fat as your finger!

Clear audio sixstream is a silly price too. Someone's lost a packet on it. (Hopefully not me)

It is pretty extraordinary what was ultimately achieved using vinyl given the obvious limitations - before it was completely outclassed by CD.

Adding crosstalk to a CD may well make them sound more like LPs which will appeal to those who prefer analogue, though to do the job properly you would need reduce the dynamic range and frequency response too, then add a dusting of distortion. That is the combination that gives vinyl its characteristic warm, cosy sound.

As for Radio 3 - 14 bits would give as much dynamic range as vinyl.

Right, we all enjoy nice rounded curves in our music whilst yours does steps of those curves trying to mimic them, but ultimately missing small chunks out. It's that bit between the right angle of your step and our arc we think you are missing.

You just don't realise it.

It is pretty extraordinary what was ultimately achieved using vinyl given the obvious limitations - before it was completely outclassed by CD

I don't think this is right and nor do most audio bods with better systems than either of us..

Noel Keywood from one of the hifi mags made a device, called a Frankestein or similar, that introduced some more crosstalk on a CD players output and that seemed to get some approval, but not enough for the product to remain on sale for long.

One of my CD players sports a valve output stage, the whole point of which is to make it more analogue sounding. It works quite well as I enjoy the sound - although unfortunately like other valve kit I've owned it's a bit temperamental.

Anyone got a recommendation for somewhere in London to get valve kit fixed? As well as the CD player my beloved Audio Note valve amp is also playing up at the moment.

I don't think this is right and nor do most audio bods with better systems than either of us.

I don't think vinyl was ever outclassed and whether you felt it was bettered by CD is really down to personal preference. For example my best CD players is a Naim one and my best turntable is a Linn LP12. Is the Naim player more accurate than the LP12 and with a better dynamic range - definitely (although I don't think Naim players really aim for accuracty). Do I prefer the sound of the Naim player to the LP12 - no (although I enjoy both).

If you measures their performance based on frequency graphs etc. then maybe the CD player would outclass the turntable - but not when you measure then using your ears!

Right, we all enjoy nice rounded curves in our music whilst yours does steps of those curves trying to mimic them, but ultimately missing small chunks out. It's that bit between the right angle of your step and our arc we think you are missing.

whether you felt it was bettered by CD is really down to personal preference

If you measures their performance based on frequency graphs etc. then maybe the CD player would outclass the turntable - but not when you measure then using your ears!

I don't think this is right and nor do most audio bods with better systems than either of us.