[Closed] Hi-Fi geeks - Help with my stereo set up

ouch, spent £1600 and even then can't persuade yourself it is any good? can you take it back!?

want a thump in my chest whilst my toes tap..

Aren't they small speakers? Are they difficult to drive?

Never read much into power output. It's current delivery and control that matters.

I have. Cyrus Lyric driving Neat Elete speakers I had the same problem initially recon it took close to 100 hours to reach it full potential. I almost went down the Sub route but the wife wouldn't play, as it turns out it wasn't necessary just needed more running in.

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/neat-acoustics/mystique/prd_120255_1594crx.aspx

Soundstage is very big. in fact bigger than any flat earth speakers i heard before. tone is very balanced. not bright nor bassy but bass is ultra fast that if you're used to boomy bass these babies may sound basslight to you.

Yes, positioning may help a lot.

Lol they are floorstanders...

Exits thread

ouch, spent £1600 and even then can't persuade yourself it is any good? can you take it back!?

£1600 is new price, I paid a LOT less than that from an old rich fella who bought it and replaced it almost immediately when realising it had no tone controls..
It is good, very very good, I'm just trying to work out how good it should be. Currently too lean to consider it as amazing, but suspect running in - or lack of - to be part of the problem.

Aren't they small speakers? Are they difficult to drive?

I had the same problem initially recon it took close to 100 hours to reach it full potential. I almost went down the Sub route but the wife wouldn't play, as it turns out it wasn't necessary just needed more running in.

Fingers crossed it comes to life then, will be great to hear it open up. Thanks

Move them back toward the rear wall is probably the only way to get "more" bass. Have a play with other positioning as Neats aren't thumpers. An amp change won't change the nature of your speakers and the results you're getting are exactly what I'd expect.

Try some of this stuff it might help

http://www.audiophysic.de/aufstellung/index_e.html
Your speakers could be sitting in a null point and lacking bass because of that.

Otherwise you need bigger speakers with larger drivers as chest thump comes with shifting air - A lot of it.

Otherwise you need bigger speakers with larger drivers as chest thump comes with shifting air - A lot of it.

Not just this - needs to be fast so the amp needs current and control., and the speakers can't be flabby.

what is the equipment sat on? The room and the stand is where I'd look. I'm sure I'm not hearing half of what my system could do with better acoustics.

I've heard my old system set up in a better situation than I ever had it (better shape room, solid floor) and it sounds like it's been upgraded.

You could try some fatter gauge loudspeaker cable - although don't spend too much on it.

The 4mm Van Damme stuff is cheap and apparently the same as that recommended by PMC.

Probably won't make much odds but it did to my lowly Quad 306 I remember.

room positioning of both the speakers and your head will make a difference.

I thought you'd left Al? 😉

See, this is where I lose my mind with hi-fi. Change one component and a hundred voices tell you the fault lies in another component. Change that component..

What makes a flabby speaker?
Is my amp not capable of handling current and exuding control?

I'm matching my system based on recommended complimentary components. But of course one mans meat etc..

I want great bass, but I also want great control and separation. Discuss

Granted, it's not set up on a great stand. It's on a modular shelving system but isolated by granite plinths, and the CDP has those spongy feet that came highly recommended on an old hi-fi thread.
Turntable is isolated via dedicated wall bracket, living room floor is suspended with garage void underneath. Unfortunately.

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Could it just be a more "accurate" sound whereas the old
Cambridge gave a slightly more enhanced, rich bass?

What's the room like? Lots of furnishings, or lots of wood and glass?

Cambridge was bass light too, IMO. The old Marrantz was better in that respect but would lose composure when driven harder.
Room is approx 5m x 6m. Carpeted, curtains

As things stand I'm feeling like I've gained maybe up to 10% across the board - which seems short change from a £1600 amp when coming from a bargain basement amp.

I want great bass, but I also want great control and separation. Discuss

Thanks for the input.
Relatively speaking this amp is several steps up the ladder, I'm sure it's capable in the right hands

Can't believe we're 2 hours and 18 posts in and nobody has suggested Naim. Where are they?

Definitely worth playing with speaker positioning. You have quite a large room though so with a smaller floor stander (ported?) you might struggle regardless. When you liked the sound of the neats, was that in your room? And with what amp?

Yes they are ported. It was a smaller room and they were connected to a home made amp so no idea what was driving them exactly.. They kicked butt though, but yes I'm sure the room dims played a part

WHen I was at uni I went to a proper hifi shop with a mate - he wanted to buy a Linn so they (as was the sales pitch at the time) got us to listen to a set up worth thousands, using their special vinyl and then even deigned to play a few of our own records

They said a load of stuff about bass "accuracy", "tautness" and other guff but even if the whole thing was better than I'd ever heard, when it came to it the word for the bass, I went for "gutless"

I'd have to agree that as far as I can work out, in audiophile terms bass is a bad word that needs to be controlled.

I prefer controlled BASS

want a thump in my chest whilst my toes tap.

Only way is to move air which means much bigger 'speakers.

Your sources are fine, assuming a decent cartridge ( I spy an Exact) , amp is good, speakers excellent.

Interconnects?

I was astounded recently playing around with my interconnects. A pair of red leads by Chord that were included with my Audiolab pre and power amps that I thought were "cheap but OK" ended up really making a difference. Further investigation, they were £100+ interconnects a number of years ago.

A few returnable purchases later on Qed performance 40 (£40) and then Qed Reference 40 and Chord Cobra Vee3 interconnects at just under £100 a set I am convinced that a bit of experimentation in the interconnect department is absolutely necessary.

Qed performance didn't perform compared to the 20 year old Chord Solid, (less detail, Woolier, less bass) The Qed reference 40 at £85 didn't meet the explicit detail of the Chord Cobra Vee3 at £95, again nice to listen too, smooth but lacking in detail compared to the new chords.

Before I started this process a few weeks ago, I never realised how much an interconnect could alter the sounds I could hear.

I am lead to believe my amps are analytical? Speakers are designed for studio use (avi biggatron) and cd player is a smooth but detailed Bitstream rotel 965 Bx LE Discrete oldy that's been re-clocked and us apparently a £1000 cd player killer, for system comparison, tt is an RP6 with Exact, rega fono phono amp.

My £50 upgrade from Qed micro speaker wire to Van Damme 2.5mm wire gave a worthwhile "thump" but the effect the interconnect swapping from source to pre amp,or pre amp to power amp makes a far bigger difference than I thought it could.

I'd try a few different interconnects, but only if you can buy a few at a time and return as necessary. I still can't believe how much difference it's made to me recently

flabby bass is where the amp can't supply enough current to stop the speaker driver moving in one direction and cause it to come back in the other direction when it should

I remember hearing a big difference when I upgraded my interconnect and speaker cable from what was in the box type stuff to something decent, prompted by trying a mates expensive cable talk stuff.

The stuff I used wasn't anywhere near the same cost, just decent, and I didn't hear a difference unless I changed them both, almost like they were both part of a filtering chain.

I was/am a big sceptic so I was suitably surprised.

You've not gone out of phase somewhere have you when you connected the new amp? You say imaging has improved so it doesn't sound as though you have mind you

Sell it all and buy a decent pair of active speakers?

Won't someone think of the children / when will people learn etc

*minces off in a self righteous huff*

As things stand I'm feeling like I've gained maybe up to 10% across the board - which seems short change from a £1600 amp when coming from a bargain basement amp.

I came from a humble Rega Brio (£325 new and 35 w) to the Audiolab 8000s and 8000p pre and power setup (second hand but over £1k worth and 100w). It left me feeling that The sound had improved but how brilliant the Brio was. Shame I'd sold it.

Playing then with swapping from integrated with just the 8000s then adding the 8000p and switching to pre/power improved things but only marginally by tightening things up, more controlled sound. Small gains.

Reading this thread reminds me of the lunacy of the hi-fi industry. A much better solution would be to pair some speakers with excellent polar and transient response with a clean and powerful amp and an excellent EQ to correct the frequency response for the speakers in the room they're in.

If you are into hi-fi I'd urge you to build some of these and take the leap into the 21st century which the industry is so keenly avoiding because it'll destroy their business model of constantly mixing and matching items unscientifically for marginal gains but maximum spend:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/LXmini/Introduction.htm

Yes, I feel that I've gained the tightening up, rythm is improved and detail is exceptionally clear. I guess my main grumble is the sense of a lack of power - whatever that means.
I think the short of it is that despite appreciating quality sound reproduction I'm probably spoilt by years of concerts/gigs/clubs/car stereo where you can really feel the air pressure changes and the deep bass notes - which according to most snobby audiophile descriptions is completely uncouth of me to desire.

Now I don't expect an 1000 giga watt concert in my living room, but at the moment I'm missing the low rumbly bass notes that I've heard much more humble systems at least attempt to reproduce in the past.
For example, playing Prodigy's Poision (a system tester for me) - I can barely detect the opening sub bass line, in as much as I can hear it, but there's no gusto behind it. Cypress Hill Black Sunday on vinyl I was expecting big things - but again, very modest bass at the lower end - backed up by Mrs Slim who far from usually being bothered by stereo set up expressed herself that the bass seemed flat.
Kate Bush Hounds of Love, James Gold Mother - exceptional clarity and stereo imaging, but instead of worrying about it being too loud I'm left wanting to turn up the volume in order to feel the complete package

I would advise playing with speaker positioning.

Did you happen to move the speakers and/or your listening position when swapping the amps?

Google Fletcher-Munson. Read about it thoroughly. Then accept that the fear of EQ in hi-fi systems is ludicrous.

Your speakers probably aren't in the best positions in your room. But if you want a hi-fi system to feel like a gig you basically need to crank up the bass knob. Sorry.

The Linkwitzlab recommendation is a good one and those minis look very good.

But if you are sticking with what you have then try some EQ as the guru recommended - the Behringer DEQ2496 Ultra Curve is one of the cheapest options :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-DEQ2496-Ultra-Curve-Processor/dp/B000CCN152

or there are options that use a PC but you will need a decent soundcard.

otherwise you might have to get a sub, but it will probably need to be a decently sized one to give you the kick you want to mimic a concert hall.

Read this OP or is this you?

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=183021&highlight=elicit

Have you played some music that you expect to give you the sound your looking for and then walked round the room to feel where the bass is strongest / best?

This will give an indication of cancelation in your room and might suggest what you need to do.

Room Eq and a half decent microphone with calibration software could be worth a play too.

Years of playing and others with much better and ludicrously expensive kit than I suggest that cables are a nonsense. As long as terminations and gauge is correct then they are just a placebo.

I'd look to more physical aspects before playing with bits of wire.

As long as terminations and gauge is correct then they are just a placebo.

I think at the gross level then gauge and structure (single-core/stranded) can make a difference, particularly with solid-state amps. But once you have the correct gauge and structure then paying more shouldn't make any difference. I have certainly had differences with my Quad amps and different speakers/crossover setups.

I have built runs of fat mains cable expecting it to make no difference and then been disappointed when it has.

If you could measure the magnitude and phase of the response of each speaker at the listening positions and then use EQ and all-pass filters to flatten the magnitude and get the phases to match each other as best as possible over these positions, you'd transform the sound. And then come up with a selection of presets to compensate for your ears at the actual listening level vs the live experience.

Having had no system at home for a year due to space issues (we have studio monitors on the wall at work so plenty of listening happens there) I've just fitted some 4.5" balanced mode radiators into the carcass of a 1960s radiogram with a Sonos Connect:Amp hidden in there. At the moment just simple open baffles but I'm going to build some transmission lines to give them an easier time producing the lows (lots of EQ being used at the moment but Xmax of these little things is an impressive 7mm!)

You could just buy a large cardboard box, place it near your seating position, and kick it in time with the music. The size of the box can be chosen according to which notes you want emphasized.

I understand your frustration. I have been looking at upgrading my 25 year old system, Audiolab 8000a, B&W P4 (small ported floorstanders), REL strata iii, Mdac,Squeezebox but have come away pretty underwhelmed. I need the sub in my room for the very lowest rumbles but my speakers were much better in the bass in the demo room when I took them for comparison.I have come to the conclusion that a LOT of cash needs to be spent for a tangible improvement and even then the room is the biggest variable.incidentally, the biggest improvement I heard was by hooking up a Naim Nait2 into the system, much more clarity and instrument definition in the top end. Next step is to listen to some Harbeth P3esr's

[url= http://music.tutsplus.com/tutorials/6-different-frequencies-and-how-to-spot-them--audio-9724 ]6 different frequencies and how to spot them[/url]

Use one of these to measure your room - they were on sale a while ago - import duty is about £50 or so.

[url= http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-omnimic-v2-computer-based-precision-room-measurement-system--390-792?utm_source=Retail&utm_medium=Email_Newsletter&utm_content=390-792&utm_campaign=email110515A ]Dayton audio omnimic[/url]

Could also look at how your speakers are sitting on the floor - a direct mount rather than spikes might work better.

Someone posted a link to some well-priced sound isolation pads for mounting speakers and amps on, but I have lost it.

This guy has no problem with his bass levels :

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/\ 🙂

Thanks for the advice guys. Some going straight over my head but I'm in awe of how much detail some of you go into. In hindsight I think the construction of my living room is having a huge bearing on the sound. I will go away and play with speaker positioning, and look into possibly insulating the floor as it's currently suspended over the subterranean garage space. When I'm in the garage I can hear every note and best of the stereo playing above!

Moved to a house with wooden floor:
Indistinct, flabby bass, the whole room joined in too.

Granite chopping boards, about £15.00 from Tesco - felt pads underneath.
Sorbothane (try with Blu-Tac, pretty much as good) between granite board and speaker.
Should let you hear a bit more of the speaker and less of the floor.
You can slide the speakers around easily to play with positioning too.

Using spikes on the speakers (resting on the granite board) in place of the Blu Tac sounds similar, but a bit thinner in the bass.
I went with the Sorbothane because it sounded better to me, with a firmer more distinct bass.
Grandkids too, so spikes might not be suitable.

Rugs, blinds and pictures on the wall all help too, from personal experience.

Tried loads of different speaker cables over the years.
Yup, they do sound different, but as above, you don't need to pay a fortune.
Try some cheap 2/2.5mm solid core against decent, cheap 79 strand or similar.
Bet you can can tell which is which.
Not yet tried a cable that could 'save' a system, more gently nudge it in the right direction.
🙂

I love Marantz amps, by the way.
You could get a pair of Monoblocks for £500 which would solve your power issues.
😀

Oh, if you really solid bass, have you tried the Dali stuff?

The Dali 3's are exciting, bit too much for me but could be what you're looking for.
I went for Tannoys.- not Lionel flappers, but they do go deep and sound good too.

Cheers Rusty. Have just played around with speaker positioning and that's instantly added more depth to the bass and seemingly prolonged the duration of each bass 'note'. I have some granite slabs to play around with so will have a go under each speaker and keep trying minor adjustments over the course of the weekend.

Interesting to hear about the Dali range, may look into it

When you find a sweet spot, measure your distances between rear wall and speaker.
I found halving, or quartering that distance gave similar results, say 10, 20 and 40cm away.
Or try sticking them flat against the back wall - if you move them out a little at a time you'll hit a sweet spot - double that distance, you'll hit another.
Try toeing them in a bit more, or moving them away from the sidewalls a little as you bring them forward.
If you can keep them a similar distance from sidewalls, that'll help.
Works for me.
🙂

There's supposed to be some magic ratio for rear/sidewall spacing, but I find doing it by ear works best.

Edit, the granite slabs do make a huge difference.
The polished ones even look ok on a wooden floor too.

even better is to get a couple of mates to hold one each whilst you sit at your listening position - and get them to move them around.

Also look at your seating position as this has similar effect to moving the speakers around, you will be receiving reflections and being at frequency nodes at your listening position in a similar manner.

True, the bass in our room disappears if you push your chair against the back wall.
Pull it out a foot or so and it sounds excellent.

And they can't charge you a penny to try it.
🙂

Rather you than me moving that unit though!!

Ha! Yes, there's quite a bit to shift..

Need to find a happy compromise with speaker positioning.

Sitting hear listening to Bill Callahan/Dream River on the RP6.. It's bloody brilliant. Bongo drums floating in front of me and bass guitar plucking away and delivering some rich bass.. I think the amp may be loosening up

It's more the convenience of getting your mates to move the speakers around quickly so you can find the sweet spot. We did this in a hifi show with some LS3/5as and it was like bringing a camera into focus when they were in the right place.

When I'm in the garage I can hear every note and best of the stereo playing above!

Sounds like you could mount the subs on the ceiling of the garage, which would mean the wife shouldn't complain about them...

The location of the ports has absolutely no bearing on boundary effects from nearby walls.

and look into possibly insulating the floor as it's currently suspended over the subterranean garage space. When I'm in the garage I can hear every note and best of the stereo playing above!

The room below is probably of little consequence. Low frequency resonances within that room are highly unlikely to couple with low frequency resonances in the listening room, and therefore cause an adverse effect. Here I'm talking about resonances of the air volume in each room, not the physical structure of the building.

As for improving the sound insulation, if you make the floor more rigid by adding mass you will contain the sound within the listening room more. This will actually make the cancellations/nulls caused by low frequency resonances worse, as the rigid floor will reflect more.

You should consider some acoustic absorption in the listening room itself, but unfortunately this then opens up a bit of mine field for the uninitiated!

On the web, I'd steer clear of hi-fi forums/sites for acoustics advice. Better resources are to be found on recording studio sites, E.g. [url= http://forum.studiotips.com/ ]http://forum.studiotips.com/[/url]

I'd steer clear of hi-fi forums/sites for acoustics advice.

Just to add my reasoning for that the hi-fi sites will contain good advice but this can be obscured by a lot of bad advice/half truths. Recording studio forums tend to have a good grounding in acoustics/physics and are peer reviewed better

@chiefgrooveguru

Balanced Mode Radiators look very technically impressive, do you think they're likely to replace cone loudspeakers?

At a guess that cabinet is about the size of two bookshelf/standmount loudspeakers, so what sort of bass extension will you get from those drivers? Have you considered the Bose trick of unequal length 'lines with EQ to the larger 'line?

There's also subjectivity. Someone will often tell you X is better than Y without telling you why they prefer that sound. Studio types tend to be (though not exclusively) interested in hearing accurately what they are working on.

There's also subjectivity. Someone will often tell you X is better than Y without telling you why they prefer that sound. Studio types tend to be (though not exclusively) interested in hearing accurately what they are working on.

The last time I checked, the laws of physics were the same in my front room as those in a recording studio. The acoustics ideas and solutions in critical listening do apply to hi-fi, yet there seems a reluctance to accept this. The OP has some fundemental acoustics issues to solve before they can begin to tweak it to their preference.

The listening room should treated as an additional item in the signal chain.

Have you considered the Bose trick of unequal length 'lines with EQ to the larger 'line?

Bose may use tricks but have they actually ever produced anything that really sounded good - in a class leading way? I am discounting their bluetooth speakers as in reality they all sound average at best.

Umm, I'm not really sure, but splitting the cabinet into two differently tuned pipes for each full-range driver, and then allocating the frequencies so you still get stereo but also get the benefit of deeper bass makes the Wave Radio pretty innovative.

Other than that (and only really in the bass department) I have never heard any Bose equipment I was sonicly impressed by, but they do shift a lot of pro gear and much of it looks to last. They also make some laboratory equipment.

andylaightscat - Member

Read this OP or is this you?

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=183021&highlight=elicit

🙂

(2) dedicated mains power line wherever possible . Do it if you can - This was BIG !!!! .... Arguably more influential than all of the tweaks already listed. Contemporaneous with this, I replaced the wall plugs with audiophile grade receptacles - another extension of the same theme. FWIW, a separate line for your amp and another separate line for your source(s) also was another further improvement, but admittedly somewhat less dramatic than the "wow " moment with the initial insertion of the initial mains line .

I think you need to upgrade your cheap granite plinths to audiophile grade granite, it'll really open up the soundstage.

bigjim - Member
I think you need to upgrade your cheap granite plinths to audiophile grade granite, it'll really open up the soundstage.

Yeah that's where I got my plinths from