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how anyone can be executed in this day and age for trafficking drugs is absolutely beyond me.Rape, Murder, you could possibly convince me but trafficking drugs? Really?
Erm, this penalty is the norm in many countries. We live in softly softly Britain, where a criminal's human rights come before those of their victim(s), so this seems harsh and extreme.
I can't understand how people can think this crime isn't as serious as rape and murder, because where drugs are concerned, rape and murder is much more likely. Drugs cause all sorts of crime and they benefit nobody but the lowlife making money from them. Severe penalties are therefore entirely appropriate!
If everyone realized the extent of the damage and mysery drugs cause in our own country, i'm sure there would be universal condemnation and support for a very robust response to people pedalling and trafficing drugs. (see the Heroin Laced with Cyanide thread)
I think this was a diplomatic disaster for China, but there won't be any sanctions because big business has too much invested in the far east.
I feel very sorry for the man's family and friends!
"The amount of heroin he brought into China was 4,030g, enough to cause 26,800 deaths........of people willingly abusing hard drugs....."
Like the way the Chinese Government are making out the junkies to be "poor vicitims". Not saying they dont need support, but I cant see a Totalitarian regime offering them much.
Heard it reported on the bbc news that the trial lasted 30mins. Must have really got into the nitty gritty of it in that time!!!
er, he was caught with 4kg of heroin in his suitcase.
Trial:-
Is this your case sir?
Yes.
Is this 4kg of heroin in it?
Yes.
Did you pack this case yourself?
Yes.
Did anyone interfere with it?
No.
30 mins is a long time for just that! He was banged to rights.
Can people stop defending a drug smuggler!!!! If I posted up that I'd be done speeding I'd have been crucified by now!
'allegedly' he didn't pack the case himself - it was given to him to take to china
Hold your horsies their Doc. I am usually branded as one of the daily wail lot and quite often diagree with Mr Lynch and Co. But in this case 30mins doesnt seem like a suitable amount of time for guilt or innocence and all mitigating circumstances to be discussed. This thread a been going on for 8hours and we a bunch of people with nothing vested!
Who's to say it wasn't planted. I dont know, you dont know and now no one will know!
He didn't pack the case himself and was just given it to take to China!!!!!
**** he must have been mad.....
Oh.....
Nurse.......
So who's won then?
😆
That guy who mentioned paying money to Amnesty makes a good point.
A few responses have said that execution for rape or murder may be Ok, however there's a whole world of nastiness involved in the drugs world that results in murder, human trafficking, maybe even rape and other crimes.
So who's won then
Dunno - but one dead per 4kg probably isn't a bad win for the cartels.....
He's dead. No point crying over spilt milk, or one dead drug smuggler.
If he is genuinely ill, then it is fairly appalling that he's been executed. My mother was diagnosed as bi-polar, and she's done some proper bonkers things over the years.
The council contacted my dad, asking him to get my mother to stop sending them letters, because it was scaring the girls in the office whenever they saw a letter with her handwriting on. She once wouldn't let my brother go to school, because she was convinced their was a bomb underneath the car. She told us that my dad was going to be arrested by the secret service. She wanted, at once stage, to become a nun. At her worst, she was getting 'secret' messages from newspapers and the TV, and would make phonecalls at 3am, then cut through the phone cable (and leaving me, aged 15, to try and deal with the police).
Unlike 'physical' ailments, mental illness can be hard to quantify, hits different people in different ways. If you've never had any direct experience of it, it's easy to dismiss, to question how someone can't see the consequences of their actions. But if someone's having 'an episode', then they don't think 'normally'. The leaps in logic can be quite astounding.
It does seem odd that, given his claimed past actions (bonkers emails, etc), that he has no medical record. But then again, mental illness still carries such a stigma that a lot of people don't seek help, or their families try and deal with it quietly.
All this was raked over on Jeremy Vine's radio programme today with some truely vile opinions aired. Doesn't seem right to me. But in view of the fact that none of us know the full story, there's no point in having a mass debate.
Mrs Toast it's a bizarre thing that I would never have understood had it not happenned to me. I spent a month doing whatever my horoscope told me to do that morning...
At the end of the day the guy was a drugs mule. Did he deserve to die for that? If you're staunchly anti drugs you're gonna say yes, if you're not you're gonna say no. I just think it's completely over the top whether he was ill or not. People choose to take drugs, no one forces them and he is just 1 link in the process of the supply of them.
In the same breath I agree that the UK's justice system is too leniant. I think the prisons should be tougher and the sentences longer but you can't go round executing people in a civilised society. You have to believe in rehabilitation and accept that it won't be 100% successful.
Erm, this penalty is the norm in many countries. We live in softly softly Britain, where a criminal's human rights come before those of their victim(s), so this seems harsh and extreme.
Very few countries anywhere in the world have the death penalty.
Even less, have the death penalty for drug smuggling.
There is no evidence to support any claim that the public would support the death penalty for drug smuggling.
By all means express you opinions. But don't try to pretend you are part of a 'moral majority', and that Britain is out of step with the rest of the world.
Britain is not out of step with the rest of the world. And you represent a cranky minority.
Its disgusting what has happened to this man. How can any civilised society take a mans life with such little disregard for him or his family? I just cannot believe it. What a vile country that supports this.
Absolutely disgraceful.
Rumbledthumps, there are crimes that deserve this punishment.
If your kids had been killed by the bad heroin this knob had muled what would you think?
If he'd fiddled with your kids or raped your wife what would you think?
Sorry to stuff it in your face but victims are people whose life has been turned upside down by others.
He deserved to die. My shame is that this country has become so lame it considers differently.
Thanks for the additional scenarios, but my view still stands. He deserved to die? FFS...
There is no evidence to support any claim that the public would support the death penalty for drug smuggling.
Every opinion poll shows the majority in this country are in favour of the death sentence. But you're right, probably not for an import/export irregularity.
Yes, he deserved to die.
Somewhere above is a quote from UK stats - 2500 people die in the UK each year from drugs.
I don't see 2500 symapthy threads for them on STW! This guy was smuggling the crap that kills people - he is dead - that is fine with me.
Just love how ANY country where an English subject is charged over drug trafficking etc is smeared as backward etc by our press. Even the States recently with the idiot-hacker.
Somewhere above is a quote from UK stats - 2500 people die in the UK each year from drugs.
112,337 deaths caused by smoking in the UK in [url= http://old.ash.org.uk/html/factsheets/html/fact02.html ]2002[/url].
Hora - can I add you to my list of capital punishment crimes?
You are indeed in need of something......
112,337 deaths caused by smoking in the UK in 2002.
I have absolutely no doubt were cigarettes to be introduced into the UK today - knowing what the medical profession knows - they would be banned.
He deserved to die? FFS
If you smuggle drugs into a country with a 50g legal threshold for the death penalty and get caught - yes you deserve to die.
However, if he is as claimed a mentalist - then here lies the problem.
I feel very sorry for the man's family and friends!
That is the one thing I do agree with.
5thelephant - smoking is not (sadly) a crime. Cigarrettes are not a banned substance.
It's like saying 1000 deaths are caused by drink driving so a drug smuggler shouldn't be killed.
This was a pre-meditated, thought out crime, with consequences that could impact a huge number.
Stop crying cos some evil drug smuggler is now not able to supply your kids / your neighbours kids / your mates kids with drugs.
I'm glad he's dead - I just wish everyone else in his operation had died with him.
5thelephant - smoking is not (sadly) a crime. Cigarrettes are not a banned substance.It's like saying 1000 deaths are caused by drink driving so a drug smuggler shouldn't be killed.
I didn't say he shouldn't be killed, I'm suggesting this is an arbitary administrative issue related to import / export classifications. He failed to comply with the import / export rules. Fair enough (and I'm not crying, I don't know the bloke).
The [i]victims[/i] here are merely disappointed customers.
Cool - as long as we're agreed on the whole killing him front :thumbs:
As for the customers - as long as they didn't get vouchers for heroin for Christmas only redeemable against him, they shouldn't be worse off.....
Not all agreed DrRS****. This man may of one day seen the error of his ways and done something positive with his life. Sadly that won't happen now. Oh why bother.....
There is no evidence to support any claim that the public would support the death penalty for drug smuggling.
Looks like you might be wrong Ernie.
The BBC headline is [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8433704.stm ]British Anger at China Execution[/url] but if you have a look at the [url= http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=2&forumID=7377&edition=1&ttl=20091229225815&#paginator ]Have Your Say, Readers Recommended[/url] it appears the British are actually overwhelmingly supportive of the Chinese.
evil drug smuggler is now not able to supply your kids / your neighbours kids / your mates kids with drugs.
Are you under the impression that heroin users are mostly children ?
BTW, for someone who claims that, quote : [i]"my views are not 'extremely strong'"[/i] you come out with pretty strong language - such as [i]"I'm glad he's dead - I just wish everyone else in his operation had died with him."[/i] 😕
In fact the more I read of your posts, the more they appear to be a tad hysterical.
.
However, if he is as claimed a mentalist - then here lies the problem.
No idea about his state of mind. But the song he wrote which he believed would make an international pop star and help bring world peace, makes interesting listening :
Looks like you might be wrong Ernie.
Well there's always the possibility that I might be wrong. But where's your evidence that the public would support the death penalty for drug smuggling ?
I like your use of [i]"the British"[/i] btw 🙂
Well there's always the possibility that I might be wrong. But where's your evidence that the public would support the death penalty for drug smuggling ?
As I said (and linked) the comments on the BBC story are overwhelmingly supportive of the Chinese.
Not evidence, just mildly amusing given the official BBC line that the British are [i]angered[/i] by this. It would appear the opposite from the feedback on the story.
I like your use of "the British" btw
Not sure why? I'm just quoting the BBC.
5th
is British Anger at China Execution but if you have a look at the Have Your Say, Readers Recommended it appears the British are actually overwhelmingly supportive of the Chinese.
British means the government in your first example
British in your second means the people you therefore are guilty of the phallacy of equivocation.
I think Ernie may have mocked British as the posters were drawn from around the world.
Not evidence
Oh OK then.
Since you might just about with a struggle, scrape up a majority in support of the death sentence for murder,
I fail to see the evidence that it would be achievable for drug smuggling.
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1506834/Less-than-50pc-back-death-penalty.html ]Less than 50pc back death penalty[/url]
5th
British means the government in your first example
British in your second meands the people so you should be careful not to fall foul of the phallacy of equivocation
Yes, I am aware of that, but the British government is supposed to speak for the British people though, so my amusement stands.
I think Ernie may have mocked British as the posters were drawn from around the world.
True, but have a look at the (alleged) addresses. The majority are British.
Anybody who think's you can walk through custom's with 4kg of gear in a suitcase has got to be to 2 chip's short of a butty and China does'nt do simpathy, 75% of the world's execution's take place in China!
To be honest,as has been mentioned above, he is guilty. If he didn't pack his case then he lied at the point of boarding the plane - possibly twice. Maybe he didn't know what he was doing and is mentally ill. That still doesn't change teh facts of the case in that he broke the law and smuggled drugs. I don't think that executing him was the right thing to do but he should have been banged up for it. It's so easy to claim illness / no responsibility for crimes when it loo0ks like you are going to cop it. Tough - should have thought about that before doing it. Same with all th fuss over Gary McKinnon (or whatever his name is). It frankly doesn't matter if you have a mental illness - he knew what he was doing and he was breaking the law. No good pleading some kind of absolution of responsiblity because you are "ill". He was cloearly well enough to hack the US systems and therefroe well enough to know what he was doing. Looking for UFO info my arse! Stop whinging and take responsibilty for what you have done. Perhaps show a little remorse and genuine repentence for what you have done and people may treat you a little more kindly. Looking for excuses and claiming it's not your fault is not the best way to win friends and influence people.
Where's TJ when you need him?
Since you might just about with a struggle, scrape up a majority in support of the death sentence for murder,
I fail to see the evidence that it would be achievable for drug smuggling.Less than 50pc back death penalty
I see your 50% and raise to 70% ([url= http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/poll.aspx?oItemId=2504 ]more recent poll[/url]).
I wouldn't like to bet my house on what the good old British public would vote for given the chance. Which is why they'd never let us vote on executions.
I'd vote to legalise drugs personally. The customer is always right.
It frankly doesn't matter if you have a mental illness - he knew what he was doing and he was breaking the law. No good pleading some kind of absolution of responsiblity because you are "ill"
Can I safely assume you are not a real Dr either 🙄
I'd vote to legalise !Maybe we'd get some decent quality control then!
5th you just proved ernies point he specifically said the death penalty for Drug smuggling
But where's your evidence that the public would support the death penalty for drug smuggling ?
Only 1 % supported it for other crimes as they did not ask about drug smuggling in the initial 12 crimes.
[url= http://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/mediact-channel-4-death-penalty-drama-computer-tables.pdf ]full report read first two pages[/url]
I don't think it was right to execute him for many of the already mentioned reasons. I'd just like to say that the number of deaths caused by the heroin are to some extent irrelevent, if you abuse heroin you pay the price, these people are not victims on the most part, unless they are physically being forced to take the drug. I really cannot see any argument other than 'it's against the law' as to why a drug smuggler should be executed whilst tobacco is still so widely used (it's a massive problem in China). Both drugs kill people, the production of both drugs is complicit with abuse of 'workforce' and both generate a lot of money for a few people.
I'm not a fan of laws for laws sake, if something is wrong and is not parralelled by a legal practice then fine, but a kangaroo court scentencing a person of questionable sanity to death for seems so contadictory compared to the problem of tobaco use/abuse in China.
Maybe his mental illness was drug related? Maybe he agreed to be a drug mule to feed his habit?
Only1 1 % supported it for other crimes as they did not ask about drug smuggling in the initial 12 crimes.
They didn't put "sodomising pensioners with red hot pokers" on the list either. But I bet a majority would be happy to vote for that too 😉
I shouldn't have led myself down this route. My point was merely that the BBC headline suggests the opposite of the public opinion expressed in the comments on the story.
If I were the Chinese govt I would not execute him if the UK govt beg for his life.
Instead I (Chinese govt) would get the UK govt to pay for his crime. i.e. pay £4 billion pounds (£1 billion for 1kg of drugs) to bail him out within 30 days or else.
Or get the UK govt to persuade EU to make it a law to get rid of all quotas on Chinese products export/import for the duration while he is(was) still alive. Time limit one year or else.
I think the above solution should be better and everyone is "happy".
Move over Alastair Campbell...
mafiafish - I completely agree with you.
Do we blame the man in the corner shop for cancer? He supplies the fags that people smoke?
Do we blame pub landlords / supermarkets etc for alcoholism?
People make life choices. They choose to drink / smoke / take drugs. They get a lot of pleasure out of it. The vast majority are well aware of the consequences but still choose to proceed.
Like the pub landlord this bloke was just part of the supply process. And please don't come back with "but what he did was illegal" FFS. If the masses had been taking heroin years ago it would be legal now, just like how if smoking was invented today it would be illegal in 12 months.
rockitman - Yours is a moral argument.
taking 4Kgs of heroin into China has obviously upset the authorities for which there is no excuse.
Slightly OT but I love the defence offered up by folk caught- ignorance and 'this nice man offered me a free holiday for nothing' (oh and could you drop this suitcase off with a friend).
Why not DHL? 😆
Actually Rockitman makes a very valid point.
Smoking is a life choice - it might lead to your death.
Drinking is a life choice - it might lead to your death.
Smuggling drugs into China is a life choice - it might lead to your death.
He made his choice and he paid the price.
As I've said before - 1 drug dealer and 4kg of heroin off the streets is a reason to celebrate.
Actually Rockitman makes a very valid point.Smoking is a life choice - it might lead to your death.
Drinking is a life choice - it might lead to your death.
Smuggling drugs into China is a life choice - it might lead to your death.
But mental illness [i]isn't[/i] a life choice. If a child had been duped into being a mule - given a teddy containing heroin packets, for example - should they be executed? Should we celebrate their death?
If the guy was of sound mind, and knew what he was doing, then fair enough. He took the risk and paid the price. But if he was geniunely mentally ill, there's no way he should have been executed.
Could someone explain Bi-Polar disorders more rather than giving children as a example? 😐
As I've said before in this thread - he wasn't executed for being mentally ill. Also no-one has produced a medical record showing he was - just a collection of random stories from his life.
The child analogy is a little weak. This is an adult with no medically documented mental illnesses. He [u]chose[/u] to carry 4kg of heroin into a country that carries the death penalty for that crime.
It really is that simple.
I know one thing. I would check ALL my pockets/luggage etc for traces of hashish before flying into Dubai and I havent smoked the bloody stuff for years!
(i.e Grooverider)
I may not be a real doctor......Dr R S****
You may not be a real doctor, but you are definately an R S**** 😉
Could someone explain Bi-Polar disorders more rather than giving children as a example?
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Bipolar-disorder/Pages/Introduction.aspx?url=Pages/what-is-it.aspx
"During the manic phase, you may feel very creative and view mania as a positive experience. However, during the manic phase of bipolar disorder, you may also have symptoms of psychosis (where you see or hear things that are not there)."
The reason I used a child as an example is because if someone's having a severe episode, their reasoning and decision making abilities can be like that of a child's. Like a child, they can't be expected to be fully aware of the consequences of their actions, or to have a full understanding of the situation they're in.
GuitarHero - thank you - that's the biggest complement anyones paid to me lately 😉
DrRS**** - MemberActually Rockitman makes a very valid point.
Something which have spectacularly failed to do, the last couple of days.
[i]"Also no-one has produced a medical record showing he was - just a collection of random stories from his life."[/i]
In a civilised society I would expect the court to order a pre-sentencing report and where in doubt, for the convicted person's mental health to be medically assessed. I don't think China should be exempt from civilised behaviour because it happens to be China.
And btw, as I believe that there are provisions under Chinese law not to execute those who are mentally ill - were the authorities not determined to get things right ?
I suspect that this whole incident has far more to do with China wanting to throw it's weight around, and the Chinese being pissed off with the old colonial power Britain, rapping their knuckles at Copenhagen, than fighting drug crime.
And Mrs Toast - yes, I understand. BUT he was not medically certified as having bi-polar disorder.
It's like arguing he was a child as we've not seen his birth certificate.
He had no medically recorded mental problems. So the bi-polar argument is a non-argument.
Something which have spectacularly failed to do, the last couple of days.
Ah good, the Lynch mob is back....
Perhaps try constructing your opinions into sentences which make sense (remember - grammar isn't your grandfathers wife)?
Or at least offer an opinion instead of disagreeing with everyone elses.
This thread has, for me, run it's course.
I agree with China. He's dead. Whinging won't change that.
Just to add to the comment :
[i]"Also no-one has produced a medical record showing he was - just a collection of random stories from his life."[/i]
It is perfectly normal for people to go for many years, sometimes throughout their lives, without being diagnosed with an existing mental health issue. Usually it is a fairly major crises which forces them to receive medical attention. People do not normally go to see their GPs because they think they might be mentally ill.
And Mrs Toast - yes, I understand. BUT he was not medically certified as having bi-polar disorder.
So people aren't bi-polar until they're medically certified? Excellent, if we stop branding people as being mentally ill, they're will be no mental illness. Does this go for all illnesses and conditions?
Ernie, as per my other reply:-
It's crisis not crises.
And your last sentence has words missing (again).
We know he was not medically certified but that does not mean he was not mentally ill does it.
[url= http://www.reprieve.org.uk/static/downloads/2009_10_12_PUB_emails_from_Akmal_Shaikh.pdf ]does he appear sane to you?[/url]
Presumably those on the streets of Britain and neither alcoholic or mentally ill either then as they also dont have any certification to this?
[url= http://www.reprieve.org.uk/akmalshaikh ]more here[/url]
People do not normally go to see their GPs because they think they might be mentally ill.
What is so hard about this that you cannot grasp?
People who are mentally ill dont get help as they dont realise they are ill. It is why the state has the power to section and detain them against their will.
EDIT: Mrs Toast worse than that you are not actually dead untill a doctor has said so.
Ernie, as per my other reply:-It's crisis not crises.
And your last sentence has words missing (again).
That is because my English and spelling is very poor. I believe I got about a grade 4 in CSE English - so hardly surprising really.
"Ah good, the Lynch mob is back" oh the delightfull hypocrasy.
Those who argue in favour of the execution apear to studiously ignore all the actual facts of the case and the typical patterns of bi polar disorder and it's diagnosis.
The man was dupped in to carrying a suitase by others he did not know what it contained. He was an innocent stooge. that is his defence if true he should not be guilty or if evading the prohibition on the importation of drugs is an absolute offence(ie one that does not require any criminal intent) then he should have those facts mitigate the sentence to something less than death.
I would hope that any inteligent reader who understands the above proposition would agree with it.
In which case the issue is credability do we believe his defence is true. everybody who has had the chance to assess the available evidence seems to believe that there is clear evidence of a significant mental health problem, Grandious beliefs flights of fancy and being generaly mad.
Bi Polar does fit the described behaviur and explains why the sufferer would innocently go along with the "just carry this bag on for me con."The fact it has not been previously diagnosed is meaningless we dont screen for bi polar so it is typically only diagnosed when the sufferers behavior has become sufficiently extreme to bring them to the attention of the authorities.
It is common for drugs rings to use witting and unwitting Mules to do this high risk (for the mule) tactic of sending Drugs through on flights with no particular attempt at subtlty . The high value of the Drugs is the total retail at street value , which in part reflects the cost of losses due to seizure. In effect they not only can afford to lose the odd load they budget for it and occasionally sacrifice a load either as a distraction or to deliberatly make a helpful law enforcement agency or agent look good.
So a credable case for innocence or at least leniency weighed against a 30 minute trial in a country with a truely appaling human rights reccord with a willfull refusal to consider the suspects medical condition.
Hard to see why anyone can argue in favour of the execution still less appear to relish it.
Hard to see why anyone can argue in favour of the execution still less appear to relish it.
Apart from all the people waiting for organs from excuted [url=Hard to see why anyone can argue in favour of the execution still less appear to relish it. ]prisoners[/url]
I don't agree on revenge (death penalty).
Hard labour for murder? as long as it's not a psychological defect etc but I do think of the cost to look after such people.
Petty/stupid crime-hard labour and reskilled and re=educated.
Imagine being on death row and you're innocent??? horrible.
I don't know the full facts on the China/UK drug guy so can't comment.
I'm also fearing China as a superpower so can't comment on Chinese without being biased.
👿