[Closed] Help with unreasonable TFL / EPCPLC Fine for LEZ?

Can anyone tell me if we’re just being stupid and missed other signs on our route?

Yes, there's signs all the way along the main roads saying LEZ in X miles, LEZ in .... miles, LEZ in .... miles, For ......destination..... avoiding LEZ take next junction, LEZ after next junction, You are now entering the LEZ.

And fairly sure like the congestion charge you've got until midnight to pay it even if you didn't know you were going to drive into it beforehand.

And yes the fines are ££££

If you manage to get through to TFL they may waive the fine as a first offence - dart did for my son on the Dartford bridge & Milton Keynes does for their absurd car parks.
However you'd be well to wind it back a touch, ignorance is no defence...

So they don't have your address, and you live permanently in a foreign country ?

I know what I would do in your situation. Nothing.

(this isn't actually advice, just a passing thought on what I would probably do.)

Interesting bit in tfl site

However, there is still difficulty in identifying the drivers of non-UK vehicles, principally because no legal framework exists to allow civil debts incurred in a foreign country to be transferred to the court system of the resident country.

So they may not actually be able to enforce the debt in Norway.

In Norway all the toll stations have a sign saying there’s a toll station coming, info about the price, a camera and phone number you can call

In my experience, the toll signs in Norway are no more/less informative than the ones for the congestion zone/LEZ

After a ferry cancellation we ended up having to drive a totally different route to the one we had planned and I was busy googling how/what you had to pay as there was no info other than a sign that indicated there was a toll

As above signs are frequent and I doubt a 2004 diesel van will be exempt from the Low Emmission Zone.

Suggest you lodge an appeal, there must be an appeals process, if the fine has escalated due to not paying promptly you may have grounds for reduction, if your vehicle us actually exempt you get it cancelled. Appealing on the grounds of i didnt know it applied to me wont get you very far.

It is a bit complex if you've not encountered it before that won't be an admissible excuse. I'd engage with them sooner rather than later.

If you manage to get through to TFL they may waive the fine as a first offence – dart did for my son on the Dartford bridge

They waived my DART fine but they were shits about it.

I went down to London for a day to help out a friend who was in a spot of bother. Whilst down there someone drove into my parked car and coming back was accident after accident and it took something like eight hours to get home, I know it's no excuse but I was emotionally wrung out and absolutely knackered and paying the DART was the last thing on my mind.

I suddenly remembered a couple of days later, and immediately paid the the charge online. Fast forward like two months, out of the blue I got a pair of fines through the post for non-payment. They wanted something like a £150 fine for two £2.50 charges that I paid two days late (plus the £5 I'd already paid them). On the advice of many people (including on STW) I rang them and basically got told "nothing we can do mate" and got pointed in the direction of an appeal form. Filled that out and eventually got the world's most condescending reply saying that they'd waive it in this instance but I was a very naughty boy and if I did it again there would be trouble.

Shits.

It looks to me that your vehicle might not be chargeable, but you also have to register. As you say, I don't know how you would have known that, but it's probably not a valid get-out.

See https://epcplc.com/clients/tfl/lez/application:

If your vehicle is affected by the LEZ, it must meet the minimum emissions standards of the LEZ AND be recorded on TfL’s register as compliant or be 100% discounted or exempt, in order to avoid any penalty charges.

So if you're exempt, you still need to register.

The categories affected include:

Minibuses. Diesel-engined passenger vehicles with more than eight seats; plus the driver’s seat; below 5 tonnes Gross Vehicle Weight.

But yours is NOT a minibus, as it has exactly (not more than) 8 seats plus the driver.

All Euro III vehicles will meet the LEZ standard. Vehicles registered as new on or after 1 January 2002 are assumed to be Euro III, so will meet the LEZ emissions standards

As 2004 it's assumed to be Euro III so meets the standards. But I don't know if they can tell the date from a Norwegian registration plate (which I guess is why they expect you to register).

It does seem an excessive fine for not registering a private vehicle. I think their target is commercial vehicles, and if the fines were small it might be cost effective for foreign commercial vehicles to drive through the LEZ (saving time and cost) and pay the fine.

So the points in your favour are (a) met emissions standard (b) private vehicle (c) [if correct] limited roadside signage explaining the LEZ (d) [if the fine has increased due to not responding] errors in delivering the notice. I guess you may be coming to the UK in the future so relying on them not being able to chase you for it Norway may not be wise.

I wouldn't say Norway tolls are straightforward but at least they didn't seem to be punitive (this was in 2010).

Oslo was well signposted but trying to pay it at rush hour in a petrol station, filling out a mostly Norwegian language paper form wasn't very tourist friendly.

Bergen was automatic and a small value bill appeared in the post many weeks later. More annoying that missing one turn-off for the ferry resulted in being charged twice due to momentarily leaving then re-entering the zone 🙁

And as for the honesty box private toll gravel roads - never quite worked out what the payment / charge etiquette was for bicycles.......

we were supposed to have known (god only knows how) about this LEZ before coming to London

Your friends in London didn't think to explain it to you?

A van has to be over 3.5 GVW to be charged, you don't say what vehicle it is as one minute it's a van then a car. If the vehicle in question is diesel and under 3.5 GVW then you are exempt.

Filled that out and eventually got the world’s most condescending reply saying that they’d waive it in this instance but I was a very naughty boy and if I did it again there would be trouble.

Shits.

You do know the reply would be stock right? They waived the fine and still not a happy bunny. What more did you expect from them?

They waived my DART fine but they were shits about it.

My DART was waived mine too, and they were very nice about it. But I think DART is run be a different company (according to Wikipedia LEZ is Capita, famous for being...) Even now I find the signs confusing, why they can't use the internationally accepted word "toll" I don't know.

I've tried really hard to understand the LEZ, T-charge ULEZ and other stuff around London and can't find any definitive statemets about whether I have to pay.

My lane which is inside the M25, just, and is all farmland has a LEZ.
This is where to go for checking your vehicle.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone/lorries-vans-buses-and-coaches

if i lived in Norway, and the fine had been sent to my old address, I'm pretty sure I know what I'd do

you don’t say what vehicle it is as one minute it’s a van then a car. If the vehicle in question is diesel and under 3.5 GVW then you are exempt.

In the OP:

I have a 2004, VW Transporter with a 1.9 deisel engine, 105hp with 9 seats.

which I think is exempt. But having an exempt vehicle doesn't help if it's not on their register, and being on Norwegian plates that needed a form to be completed.

You do know the reply would be stock right? They waived the fine and still not a happy bunny. What more did you expect from them?

Not to be patronised in the process and spoken to like a naughty child over a two-day late fee of less than the price of a London pint.

Have you considered applying for a job with them? I think you'd fit right in.

Thanks for the information guys.

Agree that sometimes the signs in Norway are not 100% clear but generally they say toll and have a price with them so you know you're in a place where you have to pay something (same in Sweden). But yes, at least the bill you get is simply to pay the toll, not unproportionally punitive.

I've checked the route we took from over 10km outside the M25 and found 2 signs but I don't really understand how someone from abroad is supposed to understand that a sign with a green circle saying 'low emission zone' means you are required to head to an unknown website and enter your car details?

I can't really avoid it even if I'm in another country, as tempting as it is, the letter is in Norwegian and is threatening that the next step is 'Inkasso' (sort of baliffs/ national credit registry) which is really not good in Norway. I can't risk it going to Inkasso since we own/run a company here.

I've been on the phone with EPCPLC (who sent the letter) yesterday who couldn't help with anything at all on the phone but explained to send an appeal via email and wait 42 days for a reply. TFL phones is all closed because of Covid-19 so no one that I can contact there to even understand where £1500 comes from or to explain about the address issue, nothing.

Thanks for the info Greybeard, from that chart it does look like our van would pass and not need to pay any charge for the LEZ. I also wrote incorrectly we have 9 seats, it is just an 8 seater.

I called the friends in London (who've lived there for 20+yrs) to ask some of the above questions yesterday and he had no idea about it, he only knew about the ULEZ, once I explained to him he seemed to think it just applied to business vehicles. Point being, not all locals know about it either.

Missed that point in the OP on the make and model.

You can't ignore it because if you return to the UK your vehicle could get flagged and you could be dealing with the police.

Best to submit details of the vehicle to TFL and why the fine was incorrectly made.

Actually, I think I have misread that site I referenced. If you have one of the vehicle types listed, but want to claim exemption, you need to register. But if your vehicle is NOT one of the types listed, you don't. The only vehicle type it could be mistaken for is a minibus (I assume it has enough windows that it's clearly not a van) and it's not a minibus because it only has 8 seats. So it's not a 'vehicle affected by the LEZ', and has no requirement to register - that should be solid grounds for an appeal.

Do you have a Norwegian registration document that shows it's a private vehicle? If so that would be useful to quote in your appeal.

Maybe there are ways to notify commercial vehicles about the rules.

I had to read that table about 4 times to understand where our car sits in the regulations and I'm still not 100% clear. Greyboard you are saying the same and I think the point is it isn't obvious what you should do even if I had known. Obviously in hindsight and knowing what I know now, just registering would have removed any doubt.

All Norwegian cars are serachable on here, that is my car I've already search and you can see all the details.

Not to be patronised in the process and spoken to like a naughty child over a two-day late fee of less than the price of a London pint.

Have you considered applying for a job with them? I think you’d fit right in.

Here’s a thought if you don’t want to be spoken to like a naught child try and follow the rules. Almost everyone else manages.

Probably not best suited as you have to deal with idiots it seems.

Reading this I'm getting angry on your behalf, especially given certain responses.

Actually yes, Greybeard, now I've read it for about the 15th time it seems they only ask you to register if they say the vehicle doesn't meet LEZ standards.

From TFL website -

Vehicles registered outside the United Kingdom
Register your vehicle with us if:

It is listed by us as NOT meeting LEZ/ULEZ emissions standards but you can provide evidence that it does
It qualifies for an exemption or discount. Read more about exemptions and discounts

Affected vehicles -

Minibuses
Up to and including 5 tonnes gross vehicle weight:

Current LEZ standards continue to apply
Over 5 tonnes gross vehicle weight:

Current LEZ standards apply
Tougher LEZ standards apply from 26 October 2020

Not that it helps any but I checked this thread because I had no idea what TFL, EPCPLC or LEZ were. Probably because I live up north so I certainly wouldn't expect someone in Norway to know.

You can’t ignore it because if you return to the UK your vehicle could get flagged and you could be dealing with the police

It’s not a criminal matter it’s a civil matter.

Good to know goslow, maybe I can use it as anecdotal evidence in my 15 page letter to them. I'm also originally from up north back when I did live in the UK (Northumberland).

I did post links in that last post but it doesn't seem to have come up

From TFL website

Affected vehicles

I drive past the signs about the LEZ regularly, and I completely agree with the OP that they're not clear about what you need to do. and the TfL website about it is v confusing.
shame you can't ignore it, I thought the letters were from TfL not a local enforcer