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Hopefully I can post pictures....
We had bifolds fitted in August. I noticed last week some white streaks on the outside of the glass, put this down to the window cleaners who came for the first time. However I've gone out in a small break from the never stopping rain and it doesn't want to come off. With a lot of elbow grease it does, and it is orangey.
Looking closely at the top of the doors the edge of the steel is exposed, and I think it could be rust - there was a cavity tray fitted and weep vents. Not sure if these are working as they should as it looks like water is also running down the doors in the places where the streaks are.
It has been particularly wet, so maybe its all just settling. However googling and a few threads say its not normally to have the edge of the steel exposed. I've texted the builder some photos to see what he says, have been trying to get him to sort building control sign off for some time.
Will try and upload some photos now
IME, dodgy building is normal.
HTH 😁
check the weep vents as well. Its not uncommon to have fake ones fitted where the builder cuts the back off them and just sticks them on the outside of the wall. google fake weep vents.
Are you saying the door frames are steel(!) or you're looking at the lintel over the doors?
If it's the latter then [I think] BR state that 'exposed' steel lintels are now supposed to be galvanised. We opened up the side of the kitchen for bifolds in 2018 and the structural engineer specified that the steel going in had to be galvanised* - which we did.
It's quite spendy and takes a little time so your builders may have just thought that you'd never know, your SE wasn't on the case - or something along those lines.
* I should add that ours is a particularly long I beam steel and not a pressed steel lintel which may have different requirements.
Having a mare trying to find a site to host the images
There are three weep vents, the one near the streaks seems to be working and lost of evidence of water. The other 2 have no water out at all. If they are real it suggests maybe the water is tracking along the cavity closer down to the far weep vent and overwhelming it
BC signed off on the plans and have inspected the site on at least two occasions (maybe more I’ve not been present). I know they raised qrys on some service holes drilled in the steels ( in a different place )
The beam is not galvanised as far as I know, it wasn’t specificed to be
Builder has come back and suggested it is salts running out if the brickwork, and it should stop after 6 months
Door frames are ally
postimages is easy to host pics
excuse the garden, thats this summers project
it could well be as the builder suggests salts from the bricks but I would be expecting the weep vents to be directing the water away so its not running down a sections of the doors. For context those doors are 4.5m wide - the far vent near the streaks is working as I can actully see water coming out of it. the other 2 seem to be dry (relatively)
we do have a bathroom above. now starting to be paranoid there could be a leak. Though it has been tipping down with rain for 2 weeks and that corner of the house takes the brunt of the weather
I am not a builder but that looks wrong to me on many levels. The edge of the lintel should not be exposed unless its galvanised, there should be a drip edge above the opening. the mastic / pointing above the opening looks really poor
But i am not builder. Hopefully someone who is can answer more but I'd be getting someone to look at that
In Scotland it's normal to fit doors /windows 100 mm back from the external face
There is nowhere for the water to drop off to the ground other than staining the glass
I'd imagine that's a Catnic or other brand galvanised lintol so won't rust but keep staining your glass in the wet months
Is it normal for bifold doors to be fitted with no or very little recess into the wall? All of our doors and windows are set back a little so any water running down the brickwork above drips off past the window; because your doors are almost level with the brickwork, water just runs off the bricks straight onto the door. The bigger streaks line up with the gaps between bricks where the water is given an even easier path.
Could a a little bit of trim be added above the door to give the water something to drip off instead of running onto the door?
Well I dunno,but salt would wipe away easily in that timeframe. Were the bricks coated with something, it looks more like some mortar additive washing out. I'm Also twitching about there being no drip edge 😕
Looks like it's from the mortar to me.
You need a drip strip at the top I'd say.
actually thinking about it, the section of doors which has no streaking is single story and has a soffit / guttering. This section is second story - so it probably is just water running down as there is nothing to stop it.
I am not an expert in how doors should be fitted, trusted the builder had / has done it right. Not sure if BC have been round since doors have been in - think their last inspection was just as the ceiling was being boarded over.
builder is going to come and look sometime next week. He seems a pretty honest chap, just not particularly easy to get him on site since most of the job has been done
Its not obvious from the photos but the door are recessed about 1cm from the brick work
I would expect 10 cm as above and a drip edge.
10mm is more or less flush with the lintol whereas to prevent that stain it should be 10x that, we put a dpc 100 mm back from edge whether it's at a new timber frame house or traditional cavity wall house
I'm guessing your I London or down Sowf somewhere
Doors should be recessed. If they are not you are fully reliant on the cavity tray as they are out in/on the wet outer leaf. This can work but depends on good workmanship.
The issue here is that flush glazing/ brick means water pours down the outside, across the face of the glass.
Have known of a few cases of water run off from brick / render salts etching the glass if left on (particularly depending on glass surface coatings)
Needs a small aluminium drip flashing above to displace the water away from the glazing. Any leak into the door head after would mean an issue with cavity tray.
The caver and geologist in me says thats more likely to be lime scale from leaching of the mortar, especially as it lines up with joints in the brickwork.
I still have my CITB book from when I started my time back in 1977 and it will show where the proper place to fit doors and windows should be fitted in line with the back of the external brick definitely not out flush
Sticking a flashing hanging over the front will look hideous and would need to be raggled in to properly work like lead needs to be at chimneys etc
would it be possible to link the product you mean so I vaguely know what I am talking about re a drip strip / drip flashing when the builder comes round?
should I try and get the streaks off asap then? I was expecting to just wipe them not need scrub them to get them off - made me paranoid now!
That doesn't look like a galvanised lintel unless it's been coated in something. That said the streaking doesn't look like rust either.
down south, just got the tap measure out. Recess is 20mm from the external brick work - at the top is is 20mm from the external brick work, but the there is the lip of the steel so 10mm from that. possible that stepped profile means its not dripping effectively
I'll be seeing what he says, but I can't see the doors being moved being an option. that will be bloody expensive, flooring isn't down yet but will be in 2 weeks. we are plastered and painted inside.
An external drip strip would seem to be the pragmatic solution - no idea how to fit it or how it would look.
Or I believe the builder and he says the salts will stop in 6 months.... in which case he is long gone !!!
Try some of the anti-lime scale product you probably have for the bathroom on it (or diluted acid which is much the same thing). If it bubbles it's definitely lime scale.
Have you paid him?
Perhaps get a surveyor to look at it?
Check against the planning drawings?
Try some of the anti-lime scale product you probably have for the bathroom on it (or diluted acid which is much the same thing). If it bubbles it’s definitely lime scale.
What Edukator said. A lot of fancy 'architectural' buildings suffer from this as they don't have conventional drips, the Tate Modern extension used to have it really bad.
Usually windows and doors should be at least 30mm inside the cavity to get some protection from cold bridging whilst at the same time giving more protection to the top of the window or door frame. There is no reason why they can't move the doors further inwards, carefully cut the reveal plasterboard with a multitool. Not sure how they bedded the doors along the floor though. I bet they didn't tape the doors to the reveal either before adding the plasterboard - dot and dab by any chance?
Watch when you scrub clean your glass as the grit from the bricks will leave the glass like a skating rink , I doubt if it will disappear in 6 months then again it might as we will be in summer but in a years time same again
He has been paid in phases - so fully paid for the doors & windows. He has yet to raise the final invoice for the final bits and pieces, I'm expecting it to be in the region of £4k. I've been asking him to do the final BC completion inspection for a month. I'm not planning on parting with any more money until then - as BC could pick up on something I'm not aware of.
I don't think he is a cowboy and came well recommended. He seems straight forward and honest, just flat out on several jobs at the same time, hence hard to get him on site.
Drawings do not specify a recess. In fact the drawings were about 30cm out as we nearly made an expensive mistake with the kitchen (architects fault, not builder, as extension was built out to an existing wall line - so it was drawn up wrong not built wrong). Helpful they have big caveats written on saying all measurements are approx and need to be verified on site.
just sprayed some limescale remover on a small section - it came off immediately...so looks like it is limescale from run off
no idea about taping doors - I was working whilst most of the build was going on and wasnt hovering off them for every step of the build
plasterboard is batons and screws so you can easily run pipe and cable behind. flooring had some kingspan against the frame - 20mm I think as he was going on about it being a new building reg. Thats under self levelling now, so I'd expect the floor would need to be cut back too.
Any steel that is exposed or on the cold side of a wall should be galvanised as good practice if nothing else.
The probable reason you don't have a galv beam is that the builder can buy a shotblasted and primed beam like you have, direct from the stockholders, with delivery in a few days. The galv service and transport would cost more than what they paid for the steel.
That steel is going to rust forever more I'm afraid.
Plus they haven't sealed the top of the window to the steel going by those photos.
. He has yet to raise the final invoice for the final bits and pieces, I’m expecting it to be in the region of £4k.
that gives you leverage
Drawings do not specify a recess.
Hmm - do the drawings have a detail how the above door bit should be done? Full drawings with all details or just outline planning drawings
I think very strongly you need a independent buildings person to look at it. From what you say could be the architect either deliberately ( because he thinks it looks better) or inadvertently doing this or the builder cocking up. Surveyor or architect to check it out
I certainly would not be happy at all with that. Dripping down the windows is going to be a permanent issue and potentialy other issues
Contact the window/door manufacturer and get the installation drawings to determine if they have been installed correctly.
Building control may not care so best to check yourself before the builder arrives.
hmmm looking at the plans it says that beam has a welded bottom plate to support the outer bricks. So its the plate you can see the end of, not the beam itself. I've looked back at photos and its not clear in the photo but I do have a picture of it on the floor with the plate, so it is there somewhere! Doors are sealed in with foam as that little bit of antracite trim wasn't there before and I picked up on it saying it didn't look great so he fitted it.
Solutions seem to be -
1. some from of drip trim fitted
2. move the doors into the recess
If 1 is done right it should seal in that exposed edge
well, architect drawing says "catnic or IG lintel", Engineer says the welded bottom plate. Not sure if those are the same things or not
I am not a builder but that looks wrong to me on many levels. The edge of the lintel should not be exposed unless its galvanised, there should be a drip edge above the opening. the mastic / pointing above the opening looks really poor
This. It looks like brick salts to me rather than rust (but I'm pretty sure the lintel shouldn't be exposed and there should be some sort of drip edge).
I've got some glazed roof where the run off from a brick wall runs by design, and we get some deposits that look a lot like that, I get them off when I clean the windows but sometimes can be a bit stubborn.
Worth noting that the 'salts' that are brought out of the brickwork (efflorescence) are not necessarily sodium chloride, they are salts in chemical not everyday terminology. So could produce orange stains.
hmmm looking at the plans it says that beam has a welded bottom plate to support the outer bricks. So its the plate you can see the end of, not the beam itself.
Yep that's actually what we had made - box section steel with 8mm plate welded onto the bottom and then the whole lot galvanised.
The mortar is quite orange so it's probably just that they've made it with sand that's orange coloured due to iron content. Locally I can buy either orange or grey 04 sand for making mortar depending on the colour I want. Cement is mainly calcium oxide hense the limescale.
Hi DT,
IF you look at your drawing SK02 - it clearly shows the beam with plate ( perfectly acceptable alternative) should be galvanised.
Just sent you an email