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Hi all,
My mum who has a very meagre income (under a grand a month) had a load of government grant funded work done.
Specifically solar panels and an air source heat pump.
The main company, Baxter Kelly, used sub contractors to do the work.
They did a poor job initially, had some remedial work done but now she’s ended up with a 9 KW Daikin pump for a small two bed, well insulated, bungalow.
Her elec bills have gone from £50 to £280 a month. The pump is going all the time and beyond one room thermostat there is no way to control it.
Baxter Kelly are endlessly fobbing her off, her mental health and finances are suffering.
My suggestions are to pay a local company to review the installation, identify and/or rectify problems as necessary. Complain to the ombudsman and keep phoning Baxter Kelly for support.
This is all new to me (and her) because, touch wood, we’ve never had this kind of shit happen before.
I really need gentle, baby steps advice to help her sort this out. £280 bills are not sustainable and clearly show that the pump is well over specced and/or not commissioned properly.
Thanks!
how was she heating the house before? Is she actually using £280 a month of electricity or is that what the company want as a DD?
you say the elec bill has gone up from £50 to £280 , but how much have her gas bills gone down by (I presume she did have gas central heating before)?
it doesnt sound (to me anyway) ridiculous that the elec bill is £280 over winter, if she now has no gas bill and the house is warm etc.
£280 on electric is just under 1000kwh per month - doesnt sound crazy for a fully heated house in december/january, even if it is small.....
have you moved mum onto a suitable tarrif for her kit? ie octopus cosy with the cheap periods for charging batteries and running the pump?
The first observation I would make is that this might not be as bad a you think.
The Solar if it's like mine with all the cloud we have had recently does not perform that well but will do a lot better as the days get longer and the sun higher.
Has she got a battery connected to the solar as this can be used effectivley to charge the battery off peak.
She should save on the gas and not pay a standing charge on the gas, if she has a gas cooker it might be worth switching to electricity and not having a gas supply.
I would agree with you to get someone sensible to look at her system and make recomendations.
A 9kw unit running all the time would be about £1800 a month, so I don’t think that’s the case.
If we’re talking £280 actual usage for the coldest, greyest part of the year it sounds about right and will balance out to parity or cheaper compared to old system over the whole year.
Thanks for all the feedback.
Quick answers:
Bill is £280 (not DD)
With Octopus, they claim she needs a programmer (Hive etc.?) to take advantage of the Cozy tariff. She has one thermostat only, they never fitted a programmer.
Previously had an oil boiler and the house is definitely warmer. Thermostat set to 18degC.
No battery.
She’s caught in a mental doom loop and struggling to follow my advice.
Despite it keeping her awake all night worrying she’s just waiting for Baxter Kelly to sort everything out, and they couldn’t give a flying.
I'm guessing oil wouldn't be cheap to run? How much was that per month..
But you've got to look at over the year - the solar power will work great in summer and the heat pump will hardly be on.
And since the temp dropped my weekly energy use has jumped 50% from £40 to £60 (dual).
But it would be wise to build a relationship with a local solar/heat pump specialist anyway. So get someone out to check it's been done to a reasonable standard. And look at adding extras the grant-funding wouldn't fund (like battery).
Take up with local MP / MSP if government funded - they can provide enough impetus to get stuff done if minded.
Despite it keeping her awake all night worrying she’s just waiting for Baxter Kelly to sort everything out, and they couldn’t give a flying.
Obviously you should validate that its all set up to be as efficient as it can be given the constraints of the installation, ie is the thermostat set correctly (what kind of thermostat is it? could be a combined programmer/thermostat?), it may (or may not be) worth getting a more advanced smart thermostat fitted if the one that is fitted is just a dumb mechanical thing.
But ultimately I think this is an expectation management thing, she no longer has any oil bills to worry about so the increase in electric should be viewed against that decrease, plus in summer as the sun starts to work the solar panels there should be a saving there, so the bills in summer should be lower than before. Plus if she is running the house warmer than before then she can turn the stat down so the house is the same temperature as before and get a reduction in costs .
You probably need to look at the total costs of the old system, so yearly elec bill + yearly oil bill and temperature of house, compared to the current costs (hard to be accurate on current costs if its only been in for a short while), but ultimately it may be no cheaper with a heat pump for her compared to an oil boiler - I know when I looked into it, it looked very marginal when using purely running costs as the bass for whether its worth switching to a heat pump or not
I guess the question really is - what was she expecting to achieve when she got the panels and heat pump installed, could they have been missold - even though they were free/near free?
Definitely get a controller fitted though. Relatively cheap to do. Many options available (Hive, Tado, Honeywell, etc.). Really simple for a plumber to install as you add some wireless thermostatic valves to each radiator and then wire a controller into the "feed valve" that runs from your hot water system to water/radiators. A limit switch on the valve communicates back to the heat pump to turn it on and off. It will be a cost, but not huge to do so and does pay for itself over about 18 months from my experience (4 bedroom house with Honeywell system that was installed about 10 years ago).
The heating has changed to all electric at the most expensive time of the year - there was bound to be an increase in electricity bills but obvs she's not paying for oil any longer.
I don't have experience of heat pumps but does sound like she needs a heating programmer of some kind if the heating is on at 18c all day every day.
Does she have a smart [electricity] meter as I think that's what Octopus may also need for a 'special' tarriff.
Definitely get a controller fitted though.
Not necessarily; a lot of heat pumps including Daikins don't use an internal thermostat, they have a "weather compensation curve" that calculates how much heat is needed from the outside temperature. It is most efficient to run with all radiators on so it can run at the lowest flow temperature, so turning individual radiators on and off could cost more, and turning the whole thing on and off could cost a lot more as they are meant to run 24/7 and use a lot of power to start up or to reheat the house from cold.
The single controller should be clever enough to control the heating curve and set setback temperatures to adjust the temperature slightly at different times of day, eg. a bit lower - but not off - overnight.
If you dig about in the controller does it give you a readout of the SCOP value? This is the overall efficiency measurement that should tell you how well the system is performing; generally anything above about 3.5 should be cheaper than gas.
As someone who owns a Daikin ASHP (with PV no batteries) on a well insulated house, after installation I had to spend a good few months dialing the settings in. Our heating engineer just wasn't interested in fine tuning the system and impossible to get hold of. So I recommend checking:
1. The controller is setup to a Weather dependent curve this will adjust the flow temp depending on outside temperature. Good time of year to reduce the flow temperature at its lowest external temperature setting(usually -5). Basically keep the thermostat on high (say 30 degrees so it is calling for heat) then gradually reduce the flow temp until the room becomes uncomfortable, then take the temperature setting up to meet a level that suits. Our WD curve was set up to run the flow quite high, if running to radiators then expect to be around 40 degrees or so depending on heat loss. Alternatively if this sounds too technical see whether the controller has the option to adjust the WD curve by simply using the offset function.
2. Check in the settings that the ASHP is heating the hot water, the default on ours was the immersion which added significantly to our running costs - your mum may not use much hot water so possibly only a little saving here.
3. Check the hot water temperature is not set too high, the daikin allows you to run a disinfection cycle once a week which can be timed to mid day when PV generation is at its highest (only applicable to the summer months obvs). You should be able to manually adjust the HW temp via the controller, were on 50 degrees.
It took me ages to get my head around it, im not a heating engineer and the above advice should help get you a bit more efficient.
Additional info: Our WD curve is 38 degrees (-5 outside) to 28 degrees (15 outside), UFH at ground floor and radiators at first floor.
Definitely get a controller fitted though. Relatively cheap to do. Many options available (Hive, Tado, Honeywell, etc.). Really simple for a plumber to install as you add some wireless thermostatic valves to each radiator and then wire a controller into the “feed valve” that runs from your hot water system to water/radiators. A limit switch on the valve communicates back to the heat pump to turn it on and off. It will be a cost, but not huge to do so and does pay for itself over about 18 months from my experience (4 bedroom house with Honeywell system that was installed about 10 years ago).
For some heating systems, that would work, however, for heat pumps, the recommended route for control is via a weather compensation control, and a single thermostat, with no TRVs. HP’s like to run for long times at low output, adding in temperature control means the HP will be on and off at all times, so could make it less efficient.
Running at 18 degrees at all times is a decent strategy, though most people like it a bit cooler overnight, so the night can be turned down by up to 4 degrees. As it is a low temperature heating source, it will take longer to get back up to temperature, so if you want it back at 18 deg. at 7am, you want the HP to come on at 5am.
Its currently the most expensive time for HPs, typically 20% of your electric use will be in January and February when running a HP. I presume the last bill was December, which, typically, uses 15% of the years electric, so that would equate to a bill of £373 in January, and it will drop each month until September which will be 4% of the yearly bill. Given a bill of £280 for December, an annual bill of ~£1865, divided into 12, gives an average of £155, which is quite reasonable IMO.
We’re in a small, 2 bed,well insulated modern house, gas CH, electric cooking, our bills for 2 of us for the last 3 months are ~ £108 a month for the gas, and ~£70 for the electric. that will go up in the next month as its been below freezing here for most of the last 5 days, so roughly £178 a month for December, which is a bit less than the HP, but that has probably not been set up correctly, and we dont have the heating on in the day as we are out, so the figures are not too far out between the 2.
My parents also had problems with a grant funded energy improvement. My Dad turned into a right grump and did manage to get (most of) it sorted. But it did require going back the energy company administering the grant on behalf of the government (solar and insulation) to get them to force the contractors. Might be a required route if applicable.
It may also be worth contacting MCS and explain the certified MCS installer has left you in the lurch, they may contact the installer and raise the query. Bit of a longshot but worth a call.
Another vote for get it set up properly and make sure the correct control equipment (as a minimum an outside temperature sensor and the associated control kit) is fitted. The room thermostat should just be fine tuning if the flow temperature / calibration curve is matched to the house. For ours (Nibe) you can also get a room temperature sensor that adds into the flow temperature calculation rather than just the on / off room stat. A Hive or whatever is not the solution.
Similarly I don't see the Octopus ASHP tariff as a particularly great idea as you generally don't want to be turning it off for long periods in cold weather, and most people want it a bit cooler (not hotter) at night when the cheapest period is. It is something to look into once running properly and you can work out accurate costs and potential savings.
We are on a regular basic monthly variable tariff (not dd) and have a 4 bed house at around 18C with ASHP for less than your mum. The only time it came much over £200 was December when the kids came home for weeks with mountains of washing, drying, showers and cooking.
If it reassures your mum, once set up properly, we are very happy with the low and slow ASHP heating method and wouldn't go back to a regular boiler (which surprised me after 50 years on gas).
Our last month's gas bill (3 bed semi good insulation) was £100. So since electricity costs 4x gas £280 doesn't seem out the ballpark for the cold winter months. Maybe slightly high since heat pumps are more efficient than direct electric heating.
Ourhouse is occupied more less 24/7 and heated to 18C but turned off overnight. Drops to 14 or 15C in 8 hours overnight.
I’m guessing oil wouldn’t be cheap to run? How much was that per month
If your timing your oil buys it's been one of the cheapest forms of heating for a number of years. Rightly or wrongly. I can understand why the op feels aggrieved.
As above, it may not be shoddy, just a case of expectation management.
The weather has been crap the last few weeks. Comparing a heat pump in January to an average oil cost per tank is meaningless. So while it looks crap, and will probably feel crap paying £280 a month from now until Spring arrives, it'll look better in September when her energy direct debits catch up and reflect the new reality.
On that note, she is on a constant direct debit isn't she? I know a few people like to know they're paying for only what they use but really if she's on a low income then it will be much easier to budget with a DD allows her to go into a credit over the summer and debit over the winter.
My OH had a bit of a breakdown over energy bills when she lived in a badly insulated flat with a mix of storage and electric heaters. The bills looked crazy but after sitting down and actually graphing out the usage over the last few years, getting the huge credit amount on her account refunded, gave actual meter reading which were substantially lower than the estimate, properly setting up the controls storage heaters and the and timers on the electric ones, and insulating the loft space properly it was actually a fairly cheap home to heat. But it's easy to get in a spiral over these things because our chimpanzee brain feels cold, and gets angry that we just paid £280 but don't feel any benefit.
Some excellent feedback here, thanks folks. I agree, there's definitely some serious expectant management issues going on!
They definitely did a poor installation job though (and have returned once to correct some of it) and also left my mum with no help /advice on the system which is now costing her £250+ a month - which she is finding very frightening. Sadly she's a glass half empty character and her immediate position is doom and gloom, so everything is worse in her world.
I've finally convinced her to get a local, reputable, firm to come over and do their own assessment (including what KW system she needs - I'm convinced the Daikin is far too big).
Once the results are in I'll know what next steps are.
Thanks again everyone, it's good to know that most positions are aligned on this!
I've been through something similar with my dad.
I went down and insulated the loft.
When he got new storage heaters I went and helped set them up.
It was as much hand holding as practical help.
Sounds familiar Matt, since my dad died I’m the geographically closest child (out of 4) so all emotional and practical requirements fall on me. Normally I’m fine with this role.
I've taken the week off work whilst my wife is snowboarding to look after the kids and refit my mums garage into a utility room.
All she’s talking about is the ASHP and not really listening to my advice. She has no real interest in my life, she’s become very self absorbed as she’s got older, which adds to the challenges.
Crikey, not sure where that came from my it felt good to write it!
Ageing brings challenges, and mrs_oab and I are noticing quite rapid changes in parents. Particularly around issues like this. I'm really worried my dad will fall for a scam, perhaps just get very lonely, he's certainly not making the decisions he would have made a few years ago, and can become obsessed with things...
Well you’re doing a good job mintyjim.
Sure having a local installer look will help - perhaps you if not her!
So while it looks crap, and will probably feel crap paying £280 a month from now until Spring arrives, it’ll look better in September when her energy direct debits catch up and reflect the new reality.
On that note, she is on a constant direct debit isn’t she?
I think this is very good advice. I’m an oil user, and as someone mentioned above it’s been pretty economical recently! But the oil tank filling will be something she’s used to, this budgeting situation is very different.
left my mum with no help /advice on the system
This is appalling, but probably dissapointingly common. The nations got a learning curve to go through with the energy transition. I only get this stuff cos I’m a bloody engineer that enjoys studying it.
I don't know how effective it will be, but is she classified as a vulnerable customer with the utility company?
example: https://www.britishgas.co.uk/priority-service-register
Definitely get it checked independently.
How was the hot water heated previously and is the ASHP now doing that?
Daikin are really good units, but the only one I know that is supplied as a complete system with HWS cylinder is the Mitsubishi EcoDan.
It's worth getting them to check what's been installed between the ASHP & HWS cylinder.
Out of curiosity did they change any radiators or did they leave the original ones?
Where are you Mintyjim?
There are people on here who fit ASHPs (properly!).
including what KW system she needs – I’m convinced the Daikin is far too big
Maybe, maybe not. Typical gas boilers are 27-30kW usually. Heat pumps typically 5-16kW. So 9kW sounds about right unless the bungalow is really well insulated or really small.
n.b. scientific pedantry, it's kW not KW. K is Kelvin, k is kilo. The only units that get capitalized are ones named after people, Newton, Kelvin, Volta, Farraday, Ampere, etc.
Typical gas boilers are 27-30kW usually
only combi boilers with huge heat outputs in order to deliver instant hot water. Gas system boilers (ie designed to work with a hot water cylinder) would be 15kW or less for a typical property. same as oil boilers like my 12kW jobby. You can get oil combi boilers that do 30kW.
Anyhoo’s, I’m with you on the point that a 9kW ASHP doesn’t sounds miles off for the property. But I’m no ASHP expert. Just lurking here to catch the conventional wisdom out because I know enough to know that ASHP is very different.
n.b. scientific pedantry, it’s kW not KW.
and I am totally with you on this one ☝️
n.b. scientific pedantry, it’s kW not KW. K is Kelvin, k is kilo. The only units that get capitalized are ones named after people, Newton, Kelvin, Volta, Farraday, Ampere, etc.
@thisisnotaspoon If being pedantic, the 'k' in kW is a prefix not a unit - and many of these are capitalized - for example MW.
Our last month’s gas bill (3 bed semi good insulation) was £100. So since electricity costs 4x gas £280 doesn’t seem out the ballpark for the cold winter months. Maybe slightly high since heat pumps are more efficient than direct electric heating.
A properly sized and set up heat pump should be between three and four times more efficient than a gas boiler for the same heat loss. So the bill should be about the same for electricity as previously on gas - and therefore with the solar and battery potential to be a lot cheaper.
It sounds to me like the system hasn’t been commissioned and set up properly, and the home owner hasn’t been taught how to use it. Neither of these things surprise me from the research I’ve done into heat pumps, they are a quite different way of thinking and use from what most homeowners and installers are used to.
A properly sized and set up heat pump should be between three and four times more efficient than a gas boiler for the same heat loss. So the bill should be about the same for electricity as previously on gas – and therefore with the solar and battery potential to be a lot cheaper.
Not in December.
and many of these are capitalized – for example MW.
Fair point, but Megatron is disappointed
A properly sized and set up heat pump should be between three and four times more efficient than a gas boiler for the same heat loss.
Not air pumps and definitely not in December. That's GSHP territory, air is more like 250-280% efficient below something like 5 degrees (COP of 2.5 is the minimum for RHI funding so you can bet that's what you'll get unless you spec it yourself)
COP takes a nose dive as temperatures drop, ASHP's are this generations thermal brick storage heaters, especially as retrofits.
Find me an independent test proving otherwise.
https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/air-source-heat-pump/performance
Just as an aside why is her income so low? Have you checked she can get no benefits?
ASHP’s are this generations thermal brick storage heaters, especially as retrofits.
Except the bit where the COP of a storage heater is 1, and is always 1, rather than 2.5 at its worst.
Yeah, and both shockingly expensive ways of heating when installed and/or run incorrectly.
On Radio Scotland this morning there was an energy/heating phone in. A householder near Inverness had an ASHP fitted and his December leccy bill was over £1000. Seemed high. But google found this guy looking at £1000 a month winter bills.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/man-horrified-faces-7000-energy-28777485
Things to investigate.
Is the pipe work of sufficient diameter to allow the volume of water required to get in and out of the rads.?
Have the rads all been upgraded to T22 type , as with the lower flow temperature these are usually the only way to get system efficiency and savings.
When you say 9kw , is that the input or output. Ie is it a 9kw system that will effectively give 27kw output, which is bonkers for a little old lady. Or is it 3kw , which can give you an output of 9kw ?
Alot of older people can't understand why you can't run the heating for 2hrs in the morning and 4 in the evening with a heat pump . The power just isn't there.
How hot is the hot water set to , and how much of the tank is it trying to boil?
How airtight is the structure and what level of insulation is there in the loft ? This will potentially yield big benefits.
Have any of the rads been balancd? I don't think it's as critical as it is for condensation combi boilers but I'm sure it still needs looking at.
Simply not true you can get COP of above 3 nearly 4 in the uk, design the system right, run it properly a d it is achievable.
Also COP is fairly pointless SCOP is more important.
Temperature is less important, the humidity at low temp has more relevance
Simply not true you can get COP of above 3 nearly 4 in the uk, design the system right, run it properly a d it is achievable.
In December ?
Here's a whole load in the 4s over the last 30 days, a few closer to 5 than 4;
Twitter has quite a few examples of systems doing between 3 and 4 over the last day or two when it's been sub zero.
I’m guessing oil wouldn’t be cheap to run? How much was that per month..
Oil has consistently been one of the cheapest ways of heating recently (it didn't used to be!) - Have a look here:
December 2023 costs, including boiler efficiency:
Oil (Kerosene) 7.89 pence/kWh
ASHP 11.65 pence/kWh
Mains gas 9.03 pence/kWh
So ASHP is ~50% dearer than oil for the same heat output.
And how many of those are
A) properly installed
And
B) properly run?
As per my original point. I never said they can't, what I said was they have to work a hell of a lot harder when they aren't a and/or b above. Which I'm guessing someone who has taken the time to connect to Open Heat has probably covered. Meanwhile you'll get umpteen folk that have had a system thrown at them, some insulation flung into the loft and kicked into place and left to get on with it.
ASHP is ~50% dearer than oil for the same heat output
Lower emissions though.
"Lower emissions though. "
The warm feeling from saving the planet doesn't actually keep you warm.
Sad to hear this.
I was foreseeing similar trouble in this thread a few weeks ago, worth a read in case there's anything that might help https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/being-responsible-for-expensive-heat-pump-and-solar-panels-funded-by-gov-grant/