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Off to a rural bit of lowland Scotland in summer. With little kids we like pootling around rural lanes and field paths.
Looking at the OS map there are no marked footpaths or bridleways, I guess because of the right to roam? But the reality is needing confidence that we are on a legit path and won't be accosted by a mad farmer.
Am I missing something?
.
Where are you going?
Basically the right to roam means you shouldn't be challenged on any path or trail on a bike (with obvious exceptions for MOD land and the like, but that should be clearly signed)
OS maps will still have some paths and trails marked, but your best resource is either try and tap into a bit of local knowledge or use a combination of Strava heatmaps and Google maps
On OS maps single dotted lines footpaths/singletrack and double dotted lines are landy tracks, usually.
Looking at the OS map there are no marked footpaths or bridleways, I guess because of the right to roam?
To a certain extent, yes.
Look for tracks marked - estate roads, forest roads etc.
It can also be because in rural areas there are not many people, so few paths either marked or worn into the ground.
Where are you going?
scruff9252
Free Member
On OS maps single dotted lines footpaths/singletrack and double dotted lines are landy tracks, usually.
Would you like a pinch salt with that? 😆
Have a look on google earth tae, to verify there's something there. and get good at reading contours.
Best just asking for routes on here though, and someone will help ye out.
We're going to D&G just SW of Mabie forest. This is going to be a leap of faith for me (as an old school walker, with some mountain leading experience, who ususally clutches a map as a security device).
If you are used to seeing the dotted and dashed pink lines on OS maps then I understand that the Scottish maps look a bit bare. As above, assume that any black dotted path or dashed double path is walkable (not always, but...). Outwith that you are also free to wander where you want though you should obviously avoid cultivated fields, take care around cattle and so on.
If you are used to seeing the dotted and dashed pink lines on OS maps then I understand that the Scottish maps look a bite bare.
Yeah, I found it took a bit of getting used to. I found it a bit tricky for mountains where there might only be one sensible route up - cue me doing a stupidly long scramble in the Cuillins which could've been avoided with a bit of local knowledge. I found using a guidebook and tracing onto the map helped.
Yeah, I found it took a bit of getting used to.
I have the opposite problem. I don't even know what the various morse-coded pink lines represent. 🙂
csb
Full Member
We’re going to D&G just SW of Mabie forest.
You've got mabie and dalbeatie on your door step then, they are trail centres, so you should find loads round about either of them.
We’re going to D&G just SW of Mabie forest.
I find in Galloway that the 1:50K maps are more up to date with some paths than the 1:25k. No idea why.
All the local hills such as Criffel, Meikel, Boreland, Long Fell (etc) do have a path - just aim up the nearest forest road and you will find a way through.
The coast does also have paths, the places there are not are just bogs...
Further afield in D&G it is a case of following estate roads, and then any place of interest like a nice view, hilltop, beach, waterfall etc will have a little worn path in.
(To add - it is 20 years since we lived there, I am sure a few other folk are nearer now)
scotroutes
I have the opposite problem. I don’t even know what the various morse-coded pink lines represent. 🙂
Aye, I've never had to use an english map in anger, when ever I look though, I'm like whit madness is going on here? 😆
What's also weird about Scottish OS maps is that the pink or green diamonds of certain less well trodden sections of LDPs might not actually correlate to any kind of actual path. The Three Lochs, John Muir and Cowal Ways all have clearly defined routes on OS Leisure maps but there's hee haw been constructed on the ground at various points on the routes.
Aye, I’ve never had to use an english map in anger, when ever I look, I’m like whit madness is going on here?
Wait until you try to work out where you can paddle a canoe / packraft / boat - your head will explode....
We’re going to D&G just SW of Mabie forest
Southerness?
Kirroughtree has a nice Green pootle and a lovely big playground. Not tried the green at Mabie but I think its just fireroads.
www.walkthehighlands.co.uk is an absolutely superb resource for walking routes. It will give you options.
I have the opposite problem. I don’t even know what the various morse-coded pink lines represent.
There's usually a little box in the corner of the map that tells you.
The mapping is the minor disadvantage with the Scottish system - down here, the presence of RoWs sends people along those routes so in most cases that then keeps the trail going. And the legal obligation to keep them open means on foot at least you can generally have a decent walk. In Scotland the maps are clearly useless in a lot of cases, hence the advice above. I think that the Strava heat map is what you need.
I mean, you can legally go everywhere, but you can't physically go everywhere - at least not on a bike - so you need some help on that front if you're not local.
Lots of the mapping apps have many more paths than OS IME - some are added by users so less trustworthy (debateably). There will be plenty to find, it's a great area for a family holiday.
There’s usually a little box in the corner of the map that tells you
Great advice Molgrips, you're a total legend
Thanks all.
I know the trail centres well from pre-kids, so this is a classic case of a Dad introducing his kids to the delights of the area. But the OS map sparseness gave me a shock.
I do wonder if the presence of clear rights (anything dotty/dashed on an English OS map is basically walkable) is a better way of getting people out to the countryside?
It'll be an adventure!
I do wonder if the presence of clear rights (anything dotty/dashed on an English OS map is basically walkable) is a better way of getting people out to the countryside?
Apples and oranges, we can go anywhere, but due to lack of population and everyone not getting herded onto one path, like you guys have, lots of paths come and go.
This year has seen the paths in the Galloway highlands as well worn as they've ever been, which is great as it helps folk and means folks are getting out.
There is loads of good stuff around mabie and dalbeattie for family rides, ditto loch trool, park at Bruce's stane and pedal along SUW to loch Dee, really braw. Loads round clatteringshaws loch too, and kirro as well.
Don't attempt to venture into the dungeon hills on a bike, that won't end well. 🙈
If you're somewhere around New Abbey the wee cafe in the village sells a walking map that has a few trails in it - but there are literally trails everywhere, admittedly most of which aren't mapped on the OS. And a fair few on the OS that don't exist anymore! I've lived here most of my life so know the area and I'd be happy to share some local knowledge. Used to be a regular on here a LONG time ago but took some time off bikes after the kids turned up, slowly working my way back into it again and discovered that technology has left me behind!
Great advice Molgrips, you’re a total legend
Needs more recognition.
I do wonder if the presence of clear rights (anything dotty/dashed on an English OS map is basically walkable) is a better way of getting people out to the countryside?
Each to their own.
I would think with a crowded England, herding everyone onto a specific route has good benefits in reducing conflict.
Many of the places up here just don't have the volume of walkers and cyclists, and frankly it probably helps to allow more flexibility in route choice for walkers and landowners.
matt_outandabout
Full Member
Great advice Molgrips, you’re a total legendNeeds more recognition.
+1 *applauds*
Son (6 on his Islabike) thinks we're doing the Kirroughtree black after I boasted of nailing Mcmoab years ago. Nice cruisey blues is where I'm (and he will be) at nowadays.
+1 for legend.
@scotroutes wrote...
As above, assume that any black dotted path or dashed double path is walkable (not always, but…).
...there's not walkable, and there's downright non-existent.. been there, got the (temporary) sense of humour failure.
I do wonder if the presence of clear rights (anything dotty/dashed on an English OS map is basically walkable) is a better way of getting people out to the countryside?
Waaht!?! Stop worrying! Follow rule 1, Read the Scottish Outdoor Access Code then go where you want whilst adhering to the prior points! You'll be fine! There's been a few posts on here this year about access issues in Scotland but I don't think that's representative of a wider issue. I've never had any problems.
As with other posters, I find the whole pink dotted line thing in England & Wales pretty alien!
Check the core paths maps on the council website. They usually have OS map sheets with core paths marked on.
While by no means restrictive in where you can go, they can give a good idea of popular / maintained routes.
There's a wide new track up Criffel, can't miss it.
Shambellie Woods (next to New Abbey) is a lovely spot for a walk, I was there on Monday in the sunshine.
It's quite nice to walk on the beach between Southerness and Sandyhills, and there's more of a coastal path between Sandyhills and Rockliffe.
https://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/galloway/rockcliffe-sandyhills.shtml
My first encounter with the lack of marked FPs on Scottish OS maps was in the 60s when I began climbing & mountaineering. The only way to find & follow the right path was from climbing & walking books of Glencoe, The Ben, Skye & Torridon (plus any local knowledge gained in the pub or campsite).
Not sure if there are Harvey's maps covering the area but at least in some cases they can be more helpful than an OS map for finding small trails. You might find them pricy if you are used to OS though! Not sure if any of their digital offerings are gentler on the pocket! It might seem silly but the size and weight is better than an OS map for use in a small camelback etc - I wasn't aware OS maps were bulky until I tried Harveys!
In Scotland the maps are clearly useless in a lot of cases, hence the advice above. I think that the Strava heat map is what you need.
I mean, you can legally go everywhere, but you can’t physically go everywhere – at least not on a bike – so you need some help on that front if you’re not local.
Back in pre-strava days we managed to find our ways along vague tracks and across things on maps that are non-existent on the ground. I don't think I've ever found an OS map in Scotland useless, but the existence of a path on the map or ground doesn't mean its physically rideable, and certainly not by everyone - I assume that issue is true in England too? You need to read contours, understand the terrain, and probably consult guide books (walk highlands website etc) can be useful to know what to expect on the ground like steep tricky rock or horrible bogfest. My experience is that in a lot of England the path network is so well established on the ground and frequently well signposted that a map often becomes interesting but potentially non-essential whereas in many parts of Scotland could be the opposite.
I do wonder if the presence of clear rights (anything dotty/dashed on an English OS map is basically walkable) is a better way of getting people out to the countryside?
I don't know anyone in Scotland who doesn't go out in the countryside because they aren't sure where to go? I think even people who don't use the countryside much have a pretty good understanding of their access rights (well actually people probably think they are broader than they are!).
FWIW it's worth looking at the OpenStreetMap mapping of the area. Paths and tracks are added by users so are more reflective of what actually appears on the ground.
Check the core paths maps on the council website. They usually have OS map sheets with core paths marked on.
While by no means restrictive in where you can go, they can give a good idea of popular / maintained routes.
That is a good call, but unfortunately being a core path doesn't actually mean exists 🙁
So expect some surprises!
Beware the infamous black dashed line! It can be anything from a landrover track to a well maintained stalker's path to wherethefugdiditgo? Sometimes on the same dashed line.
Not where you are going but here's an example: this track http://streetmap.co.uk/map?X=243419&Y=941962&A=Y&Z=120 up Glen Golly is a quad bike track as far as the top of Craig Dhu http://streetmap.co.uk/map?X=238826&Y=945912&A=Y&Z=120 then the next three km or so is mostly rideable stalker's path until you get to around here http://streetmap.co.uk/map?X=236243&Y=946532&A=Y&Z=120 at which point it's been eroded away and there's basically nothing until you get to the junction on the other side of the burn when it becomes another quad bike track that can be followed all the way over Bealach Horn and down to Lone.
Consider Open Street Map:
Or - ViewRanger Landscape on a phone.
In Stirling open-source mapping has far more detail, and is more current, than OS mapping.
I don’t know anyone in Scotland who doesn’t go out in the countryside because they aren’t sure where to go?
I have. A growing number who lack confidence, ability to read the map and terrain, a lack of sense of adventure.
I'm out tonight with the BB lads - I'm betting in the group of 10 I will have one or two who have never been up Sherrifmuir (effectively the 'town Woods', furthest part is maybe 2 miles from centre of town).
In Stirling open-source mapping has far more detail, and is more current, than OS mapping.
Looking at that map at Dumyat and Cambu, there's certainly way more in terms of paths/trails, but every other detail is pretty lacking, I've never used OSM, is it all like that?
I've started using bing maps quite a lot. I've got an OS subscription but what is good about bing (apart from being free) is the aerial photography being much higher resolution (up in the highlands anyway) than OS or google maps and they do OS mapping too. The aerial is good enough to get a really good feel for what state the track/path is in.
Then heatmaps (which I do find annoying to transpose) and trailforks for teasing out where other people go (and making the logic leap that it must therefore be good).
Aye, bing has always been better than google for satellite imagery. Don't you need a data connection to use it though?.
@nobeerinthefridge - A lot depends on the area and how much any individual is prepared to enter details and/or update things. Then OSM is really only the data, the maps are actually generated from that data by people like Garmin, TomTom, Openfietsmaps, Talkytoaster, etc. and it's up to them what to include and how to display it.
There's a lot more data/detail than just "here's a path", you can have allowed/restricted classes of access; track surface; one way details for roads; preferred route for horses/cycles and much more.
I have. A growing number who lack confidence, ability to read the map and terrain, a lack of sense of adventure.
Ok, perhaps I worded something badly - but I’m guessing a very large number of them would be in exactly same boat even if you produced a map with colour coded trails on it? If you can’t read a map having a pink line to follow doesn’t help - at the very least you need to know how far things are and how long it will take. If you don’t have the sense of adventure a map doesn’t help - in fact you probably don’t even own a map. If you lack confidence you need someone to show you. Or do you come across people in Scotland who just need a loop drawn on the map in highlighter and off they go? (And therefore would presumably be better off with English style ROW marking - which was the point I was replying to)?
Yeah - I can't see a map style being an issue, though many folk prefer "trail-centre" style signed paths as they lack the skills/confidence to explore further.
We had a couple of holidays in that area camping at Sandy Hills. There are lots of walks that are easy to find. The coast path is fairly logical but probably mainly not riding (without significant pushing) but the bluebells running down the sand dunes to the beach were pretty stunning.
I seem to remember cycling into Dalbeattie forest from a path near Colvend on the tandem with the kids on so not technical riding.
Also the Forestry Commission have leaflets that show walks in even the smaller forestry areas and worth looking out for. I expect most of them will be on their website although not all appear when I looked just now. These showed a few good routes up small hills and other places to explore.
https://forestryandland.gov.scot/
Threave Castle near Castle Douglas was a good place to visit. A castle that needs a boat to get to and nature reserve between car park and ferry.
https://www.historicenvironment.scot/visit-a-place/places/threave-castle/
Great place for a holiday. Will definitely go back.
Strava heatmap. Cancel your subscription after.
Some good suggestions so far near mabie, shambelie is great for just wandering and seeing where the paths take you and have some good short sections of biking. Have orienteered there a couple of times and the map struggles to keep up with what is on the ground.
Would also support the coast path round to rockcliffe is great and easy to follow although one for walking not biking maybe.
I find the D&G core paths network can be quite handy for finding rideable stuff, if a path is on the list here it is generally well used to be clear and if lucky there will be some sections ridden in off the main route just keep eyes out https://info.dumgal.gov.uk/mapviewers/pathsmap.aspx
Strava heatmap +1
And you don't need a subscription just a log in as its available on its own webpage or on the maps layer of the updated app, overlaid on basic OSM mapping. Have found a few new routes during lockdown using it.
Also Komoot for plotting a route. And it has just improved usability a lot in a recent update. IMO the path graphics are better than viewranger, though obv still need OS for detail, contours etc
There are a lot of routes on the OS app - tho it could do with some moderation as there is also a lot of trash.
Brilliant. Thanks all. Just need covid to play ball and keep Scotland open till we go!
That's going to depend on where you're coming from.
travel between Scotland and three local authority areas - Bedford, Bolton and Blackburn and Darwen - will be imposed from Monday.
As someone already stated above, I found strava heatmap useful to identify paths (or at least where everyone else walked or cycled if you switch to that option) where no path/trail is marked on an OS map.
I have an old book of walks around the Galloway area. Top tip: if you ever see a place called Bog Wood take it as read.
The Galloway Hills, a walkers paradise. George Brittain. Lots of hand drawn maps.
Top tip: if you ever see a place called Bog Wood take it as read.
Same with Range of the Awful Hand and Murder Hole? 😉
Maiden's paps?!?
Apparently the murder hole by Loch Enoch only appeared on OS maps after it was mentioned in a fictional book in the 19th century.
I always read Clints of the buss wrong on 1:25k map...
Know one knows. Its all a bit of a mystery with capricious surprises thrown in. OS map is a decent start point. If its marked as doubletrack its almost certainly rideable varying from a wide gravel road to " a quad went along here not so long ago". If its marked as singletrack all bets are off. Could be a lovely bit of path. Could be absolutely nothing on the ground
Geograph helps as does google maps and other suggestions as above.
One encounter with the disappearing path was up in Glen Feshie. On the map a 4 mile meandering downhill single track connecting two estate roads. Well I did the climb. Sure enough a faint path that took me just far enough then disappeared. 4 mile downhill walk thru knee high heather. I was not a happy bunny.
Also beware the "drag your bike thru a swamp" sections but when you get the right bits its fabulous
One encounter with the disappearing path was up in Glen Feshie. On the map a 4 mile meandering downhill single track connecting two estate roads. Well I did the climb. Sure enough a faint path that took me just far enough then disappeared. 4 mile downhill walk thru knee high heather.
Ooh. Which one was that?
I would think with a crowded England
Pah. Most of it's not crowded.
The problem with exploring and following your nose (of which I've done plenty) is that you have to be prepared to spend your time hacking through bogs or head high bracken dragging a bike. It's ok once in a while but sometimes you really want a decent ride and it's frustrating as hell. Despite the access restrictions I'm willing to bet that parts of Wales and England have more actual paths and tracks than large parts of Scotland - down to population density as much as anything else.
I grew up in Southwick and New Abbey so know the area pretty well; feel free to send me a message if you want any info. The shop in New Abbey has a wee local walks map for sale. Id recommend the Waterloo monument walk from the village. you can link it on forestry tracks out to beeswing/lotus hill and the back of Mabie if you like.
Aside from Strava and the like. Scottish Hill Tracks book by the Scottish Rights of Way and Access Society. I'm a fan of the National Library of Scotland side by side map viewer - gives an idea of what was there in the past and you can compare aerial / LIDAR (sometimes) side by side with a newer map. Local walking guidebooks and maps are a useful source of information. A lot of it was just going out, exploring and taking the good with the bad.
Scottish Hill Tracks book by the Scottish Rights of Way and Access Society.
A reprint is (over)due. It would have been done by now but we couldn't get out to survey paths last year.
If you can, pop up and see Richie at "Rik's Bike Shed", next to Drumlanrig Castle. I had a sneak peak at the new blue he's building a few weeks ago & our 6 year old is going to love it.
I'd argue that Richie is probably the best trail-builder in Scotland & he knows exactly what the kids need for a great day out.
If you can get there on a weekend when there is a guided family ride from the shop, it'll be a memorable day (when we were on one, it involved biking, punching trees & pooh sticks :-).
As well as the biking & culture, there is also a great wee adventure playground at Drumlanrig.
Nobeerinthefridge:
Looking at that map at Dumyat and Cambu, there’s certainly way more in terms of paths/trails, but every other detail is pretty lacking, I’ve never used OSM, is it all like that?
You want topology as well ?!
OK then -
Ooh. Which one was that?
nn802896 to NN797973
I found out later others had tried the same path Jojo IIRC
I’d argue that Richie is probably the best trail-builder in Scotland & he knows exactly what the kids need for a great day out.
Pretty much inherited Drumlanrig, I'm not sure of his other work so can't comment on it. Depending on which way the wind is blowing, he's a arrogant arse as well.
@stirlingcrispin cheers, looks a wee bit better.