[Closed] Help for Heroes - a moral dilemma

Not all of them have been trained to kill people, some of them are techies etc.

Yeah, just you.

My problem is of a more local nature. I live opposite perhaps one of the most anti-social families in history (letting off fireworks at 4 in the morning, driving Kevmobiles at dangerous speeds on the local roads, etc).
The police are round their place all the time.
But they decided to make themselves untouchable by raising money for Help for Heroes.
I prefer donating to low-profile charities, my favourite being Blind Children UK.

I resent being forced by proxy into offering support for these causes

How is that happening?

I've nothing to do with the forces and see your point that to sign up is to take the risk of serious injury/death - but it's a lottery who that happens to and the non-charity-provided support afterwards seems lacking (for non forces disabled also) and this is one way of tacking that.

But they decided to make themselves untouchable by raising money for Help for Heroes.

How is that happening?

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/man-theoretically-buys-homeless-person-a-sandwich-20150810100964

I agree that people who need help, are being helped as a result of this charity.
I also understand that it's a very controversial subject as millions of Britons know someone or are related to someone in the forces - we have a patriotic population, I just feel that there is an element of propaganda about how this charity is pitched.

A good friend from my previous rugby team had his leg blown off on his first tour of Basra, 5 weeks into joining the army. I've seen the effects, I still am completely against his reasoning for choosing to join the forces.

Nobody asked you to like the term heroes and as far as I'm aware they don't need your permission to use it so maybe just chill out about it?
You don't have to like it little less donate to it.

It's in my face everywhere I turn, car window stickers, shop collection boxes, bus stop advertising, social media, TV..

I see the problem. You're a drama queen.

Don't like it then don't donate.

Maybe I should chill - but like when I see motorists laying into cyclists in the press, it gets my goat and I feel the need to comment.
Just like with being constantly reminded that I should help the heroes, it gets my goat as I don't like the way society is validating its actions

Not the only one, joining the forces does not automatically make you a hero and those that support such sentiments really should be fighting for the military to actually budget rehabilitation and life long help for those injured both physically and mentally into their costings when embarking on "foreign adventures" rather than expecting the good will of the public to pick up the tab on top of the expense incurred of bombing poor people around the world and perpetuating the horrific cycle of violence.

Just like with being constantly reminded that I should help the heroes, it gets my goat as I don't like the way society is validating its actions

Snappy title for a good cause, innit?

It is a bit naff, I doubt many of those involved would ever think of themselves in such terms.
But if the veterans don't have a major issue with it, I can't see a problem.

But if the veterans themselves don't have a major issue with it

Hmmm! Now that might open up a can of worms.

joining the forces does not automatically make you a hero and those that support such sentiments really should be fighting for the military to actually budget rehabilitation

I'm pretty sure they don't claim that and one of the thing they do is fight that rehabilitation should be covered by the government.

Thank you Robd.

And rusty, I agree. However, I can't imagine a reason that an ex soldier wouldn't support a soldier cause.

I'm pretty sure they don't claim that and one of the thing they do is fight that rehabilitation should be covered by the government.

Certainly they do not directly claim it but the best propaganda is always subtle and slowly sinks into the psyche and cultural backdrop of the nation and leads to more folks willing to join up as it feels that their life and work will be worthwhile and heroic just like on TV and in the media generally. Their is no great conspiracy or anything it is just a useful tool that has sprung up to enable the status quo to continue.

I can see where you're coming from. The problem is that there's a chain of logic:

soldiers are heroes -> support our troops -> don't criticise the wars they're in

It's a faulty chain of logic, but that's often how it's portrayed - there's a common suggestion that politicians shouldn't apologise for Iraq, because it's disrespecting the soldiers who died or were injured, for instance.

The two US servicemen and the civilian who overpowered the nutter with a gun on the train yesterday - that was an heroic act.

They are heros in my eyes and its one of the charities I donate too. You can dislike the word but support the work they do. I don't see advertising for Help for Heros that much, I think your remark about it being "in your face" is an indicTion that you are over sensitive to it.

As an aside I see the logic chain @ben has posted. I agree totally that we shoukd think very carefully before putting their lives in danger and threatening the lives of others. Our troops are doing their job, they may not even agree with the job theyve been asked to do but they do if. That makes them even more heroic.

I would like to see St Tony asset stripped and it given to this charity.
****.

[i]Am I the only one?[/i]

Nope, are you also wound up by 'hardworking families' and the other slogans? Me too.

Interesting one this, similar feelings here jim, thought I was the only one!

I lived abroad for 12 years and only moved back to the uk 2 and a bit years ago, this blind sense of patriotism was something I noticed when I moved back.

Jambalaya, so you're saying blindly following orders to bomb other human beings, despite maybe disgreeing or not understanding the motives makes a hero? I realise this is not the only thing they do but it is one of them

Our troops are doing their job, they may not even agree with the job theyve been asked to do but they do if. That makes them even more heroic.

Firstly:

A good friend from my previous rugby team had his leg blown off on his first tour of Basra, 5 weeks into joining the army.

I call bullshit on your '5 weeks'. Perhaps 5 weeks into his tour, but not 5 weeks into joining the army.

The whole pervasive 'anyone in uniform is a hero' attitude that has developed is crap. That sort of nonsense started when Diana died.

Until 2003 and going into Iraq, anyone in the Forces was largely a pariah in many places, yet now we have pubs being vilified for not letting groups of squaddies in? H4H has done a good job in promoting itself. I prefer to give to other charities doing related work. There are far more troops surviving with horrific injuries due to the improvements of battlefield medical support. So, we see it more and as a nation were not prepared for that influx. Charities were set up.

That said, your logic is wrong. Those injured are injured because the politicians you voted for (If you didn't vote, shame on you) or didn't vote for decided that the military should be sent to do what it does. Regardless of your pacifist beliefs, you are allowed to support the individual who did a job you wouldn't / couldn't do (and that's fine) and got hurt doing it. They were doing it on behalf of the society that you enjoy.
I firmly believe that the world would be a much better place if there were no need for the military.

Help For heroes!

It's just a snappy title. Much shorter than help for wounded veterans some of whom may have been heroes while the vast majority were just earning a crust doing a hard sometimes boring sometimes dangerous job.

If you disagree with having armed forces don't donate. While not every conflict has been justified it isn't the front line troops that decide where they fight. We need our armed forces and Help For Heroes is a charity that deserves support.

The cynic in me says that anyone choosing to take up a profession in the full knowledge that they will be trained to kill people, that's 'kill people', for reasons that are at best - controversial, and at worst, profiting from murder - should probably take a much deeper look inside at their own psyche.

Think somebody needs to get out more, can I suggest a bike ride in the local woods

It's s tough one, tbh I assume the people with help for heroes stickers in there car windows are the ones reposting Britain First stories on Facebook about how immigrants are scum ate a baby swan paid for by benefits from the EU.
AS worthy as a charity is its depressing that the government / military doesn't support the people it sends off to blow up Iraq and Afghanistan, itself.

@Chris They are risking thier life going into action. In fact they are risking their life just oining up as per Lee Rigby.

I just finished Emma Sky's excellent book "Iraq. The Unravelling". The majority of people in Iraq where glad to see the back of Hussain removed by force . The way the aftermath was managed less so but thats largely as there where lots of different vested interests all wanting tto be in charge / see the country divided.

@kimbers, the government does support those it sends to war. Help for Heroes adds something on top. Its very oversimplistic to suggest someone with a Help for Heroes sticker is anti immigration. I remain a big supporter of the rights of ex-Gurkhas and their families to live in the UK and to receive a full British level pension.

How many of the people supported by H4H were injured in action?

I ask because of a trip to Kenya where a party of H4Hs were present. One was an officer who had broken her back and was in a wheelchair. She had broken her back skiing.

So what should they be called? Help for merciless murderers injured or killed in illegal wars? The latter is what you're really getting at I presume.

In my view anyone who jumps on a hand grenade to save his fellow troops is a hero (thankfully he miraculously survived), those sent in to clear a main highway of mines that are intended to and just as likely to blow up a group of school children as a platoon of British soldiers are heroes. Those helicopter pilots and medics sent into a battlefield to pick up wounded soldiers of both sides while taking heavy fire are hero's. Those politicians who campaign to have our troops pulled out leaving those locals at the mercy of the Taliban and patting themselves on their backs for a job well done are definitely not the hero's.

There is so much discussion about the legality of our interventions we forget that as far as the troops on the ground are concerned its about clearing areas of Taliban and other nasty people who are horrifically brutal to the locals, and supporting the villages and people in that area in trying to pull together whatever life they can scrabble together in some level of peace and security.

Help for Hero's employs the very same tactics as any other charity in my view, I see no difference. If you don't agree then don't donate.

slimjim78 - Member
My 'problem' is mainly that I'm a pacifist, and I don't believe in any of the 'reasons' that we are at 'war'.

My father fought two wars (Korea and Malaya) for the Queen of BritLand and he is Not even a Brit! He even survived an ambush in Malaya where two truck load of his colleague were machine gunned down. He was later captured by the commies while fighting his way out carrying his injured colleagues. He survived. Few years later he also survived a plan crash coz his time is not up yet.

OP, as you wish so long as you do not blame us/me/whatever for not united enough to face the employers in working life or face any of the "right wing" govt just because we don't go to a Union strike and because you think we should. Although I am in a union I am a union pacifist as I don't strike in anyway or form as I think majority of the union officials are all riding the gravy train.

Put it another way if your time is up you will die regardless of how healthy your are. It is the way you die that matters.

If I were in the French train I would put four to six bullets into the assailant if I survived. Two for two ankles, two for knees and two for elbows. There, he still survive but perhaps a cripple. Ya, I know what's the point innit? No point just a natural reaction to inflict pain on someone who try to do the same to me.

😮

p/s: there are plenty of over-hyped here due to the nature of political correctness ... I give up counting and let them be.

No point just a natural reaction to inflict pain on someone who try to do the same to me.

Which puts you on the same level as they are. Nasty.

Help for heroes is just a name of a charity, get over it. Yes people sign up and go where they are told and do what they are told.

Would you rather it called - a centre to help people who have the balls to do something you wouldn't do but happy to live in a safer country because of them?

Another weird thread.

Perhaps have a word with your granddad and see what he thinks about heroism.

How many of the people supported by H4H were injured in action?

I ask because of a trip to Kenya where a party of H4Hs were present. One was an officer who had broken her back and was in a wheelchair. She had broken her back skiing.

It doesn't matter. Assuming she was receiving support from H4H, H4H is a welfare charity for all service men and women providing support irrespective of how they received their wounds or injuries.
All [url= http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/how-we-help/about-us/faqs/ ]here on the website[/url], so you don't have to make assumptions 🙂

From that FAQ;

Help for Heroes considers anyone who volunteers to join the Armed Forces, knowing that one day they may have to risk all, is a hero. It's that simple.

My 'problem' is mainly that I'm a pacifist

It must be lovely being a pacifist.

Thank goodness we all don't think like that otherwise the country would be invaded, sharpish, and we would all end up as slaves.

TooTall - Member

No point just a natural reaction to inflict pain on someone who try to do the same to me.

Which puts you on the same level as they are. Nasty.

Whose level? What level?

You think too much ... 🙄

You weird. 😯

I assume the people with help for heroes stickers in there car windows are the ones reposting Britain First stories on Facebook

There does seem to be quite a lot of intersection on that Venn diagram.

It must be lovely being a pacifist.

Thank goodness we all don't think like that otherwise the country would be invaded, sharpish, and we would all end up as slaves.

I think you don't understand what pacifism is.

bencooper - Member
I think you don't understand what pacifism is.

Explain.

Is pacifist just a survival instinct by being a conformist?

😛

Gandhi was a pacifist - how did nonviolence work out for India?

As far as we know, no-one in my family has been a soldier - my grandfather was a medical orderly in WWII, helping injured soldiers but never killing anyone.

It's something I'm quite proud of.

You do realise that all these soldiers that are supposedly merciless murderers blowing people up in Afghan and Iraq aren't actually allowed to fire upon someone unless they are fired upon first or of there is a threat to human life.

Most of the time they are helping clear mines that have been laid in the roads or helping build schools etc.

bencooper - Member
Gandhi was a pacifist - how did nonviolence work out for India?

Ya, India was later split into three or four parts ... ya ... how many died due to separation?

Gandhi achieved his objective of independence (they would eventually but perhaps the timing was not right) but he also created other problems for others.

The end of an empire is always messy - are you arguing that India would be better if the British were still in charge?

bencooper - Member
The end of an empire is always messy - are you arguing that India would be better if the British were still in charge?

No, just wrong timing because of the tall fellow from West ****stan was stirring hatred while wanting a separate state/country ...

Bencooper - you can take pride in your granddads non combatant role and helping the injured, there were many others that did not have that luxury and had to live for the rest of their life with what they had been involved in. I respect them greatly and appreciate what they did for the rest of us, especially those that died. This may not completely apply to recent wars but WWII most certainly.

It strikes me that the H4H charity became popular due to the general disregard the government of the day had for the armed forces while sending them to questionable wars. The public in many cases are donating and appreciating that the forces have been underfunded (and under valued) while serving and when returned home wounded The present government says they are supportive of the military but is happily cutting away, I really do wonder what will happen if a real emergency happens (which does seem more likely these days).

If you think H4H is a waste please take time to visit Catterick Garrison H4H and look at the work being done there. You may not like soldiering and all it entails but you'd be a hard faced git not to be moved. So given the above I'd prefer it if there was no more requirement for the military but since the collective humanity has not developed that far yet, I'll be chucking a bit of cash their way. Fancy one of those car stickers.

Jambalaya, that didn't really answer the question did it? Are you a politician by any chance?

It's not just you OP. I find the current trend to tag the term 'Heroes' onto anything the armed services does (including getting themselves shot at or blown up) is beyond pathetic.

If you have a problem with the name, just give money to BLESMA, SSAFA, the Army Benevolent Fund etc, HFH give grants to these charities anyway as they have been doing this stuff for years.

For the record, I have a mild fascination with WWII and am fascinated by the machinery and its advancement during this period (literally just got home from witnessing unfortunate crash at Shoreham air show). I also have full admiration for the home guard and the soldiers of this era on the battlefield, fighting against forces literally looking to take over the world by any means.

That was a different era, different circumstances, with national service applying too.

Should it ever come to ground invasion of Britain by a genuinely oppressive force id imagine my instinct may be to sign up and defend... In fact, the army life style even appeals to me on some levels - I can see why wielding such machinery and the camaraderie would be an exciting prospect. Does testosterone play a part? Possibly.

My main point regarding modern day service is that I then take a step back and ask what are my motives? Why/who am I going to do this for? I don't think the right answer is to commit. I don't think soldiers should be in that place, jumping on hand grenades. I wish them no harm and it's shameful how on many levels the govermnent ends up deserting them. Is that alone not enough reason for them not to sign up?

I do vote, I don't sign up for war or invasions.
Oh, my rugby mate was 5 weeks into his first tour, literally weeks after completing his training. Sorry for the confusion.

Thanks for the debate guys, I appreciate the different views. No offence intended, I realise it's a sensitive subject with many invested interests.

I feel a similar way but confess I have never taken any time to look in to the details. I often think if I had a bad fall I would receive NHS rehabilitation for my injuries, this is available to soldiers and more. I could not afford the better facilities but my injuries could be similar. Also watching the likes of Grand Designs it appears that healthy compensation is already available.

.

I find the current trend to tag the term 'Heroes' onto anything the armed services does

T'was ever so, when their primary role is to kill foreigners, a measure of propaganda necessarily follows.

Jp - good point. Should a nurse/doctor/plasterer receive dibilitating injuries in or outside the line of duty, they would most likely not recieve the same level of care or compensation (or would they?)
So for signing up to do the governments dirty work, you do seemingly become a hero.

Heck, I may be a hero in disguise, but I won't choose to go to the Middle East to prove it.

[i]I think you don't understand what pacifism is. [/i]

+1

'Tis a funny old charity. "Do you want to help people who have been wounded and maimed doing their job",
"sure, what was their job",
"wounding and maiming other people"

If you disagree with having armed forces don't donate

Thankfully, whether we like the name or purpose or not, we are very lucky to live in such a compassionate society here in the UK, along with the individual choice of whether or which charitable cause to donate to.

There are many other countries who do not share our national compassion. I was deeply moved and saddened to see so many U.S. Forces veterans on the west coast beaches around LA, wheeling themselves on boards, no legs, some with no arms and all of them with no support or help from their administrators or public

[quote=slackalice ] I was deeply moved and saddened to see so many U.S. Forces veterans on the west coast beaches around LA, wheeling themselves on boards, no legs, some with no arms and all of them with no support or help from their administrators or publicAnd yet more young men and women sign up every year to put their lives at risk for that same administration and public. Maybe if the armed forces were struggling to recruit our governments would be a bit less aggressive in their foreign policies.

The title of the charity is to evoke, inspire and recognise that men and women comeback horribly disfigured for life.

Should we just discard them?

'Hero' is overused in modern day life.

Interms of the Americans on the French train or men facing IEDs daily I say the word is true for them.

I think the majority who sign up don't do it for Queen and country. For a lot of people it's their best chance to learn a trade.

You sign up for a multitude of reasons.

You can learn a trade AND sleep peacefully in your own bed.

[quote=Mackem ]I think the majority who sign up don't do it for Queen and country. For a lot of people it's their best chance to learn a trade.
Absolutely. However it's not right that, for many, it's the best option available.

Well, that's the biggest problem isn't it?

I've no issue with H4H as such, but the public do seem to have had a bit of a collective chubby on for the military for the last couple of years and it's not really one I share.

Most people I think, think the recent wars in Iraq and Afgan were a mistake, Iraq especially, equally most people don't blame the 'rank and file' for that, but these lads knew what they were signing up for, a lot of them were still in primary school when it started, it's not like they signed up for 4 years and it broke out suddenly so they have to assume some responsibility for their mental and physical issues if it goes wrong - "ah, but they're doing it for us!" People say, why? I ask, the same people who call for Tony Blair to be burnt at the stake for lying to us and getting us into these wars, are usually the most vocal in the worship of the people who stuck their hands up to get involved.

I can't help but think H4Hs was just part of a propaganda job, focus on the troops and forget the wars and its snowballed into a vote winner - I know this is an emotive subject for some, but it's just my opinion.

Not all of them have been trained to kill people, some of them are techies etc.

Have they abolished the yearly range qualification and BFT for all service personnel then?

bencooper - Member
I assume the people with help for heroes stickers in there car windows are the ones reposting Britain First stories on Facebook
There does seem to be quite a lot of intersection on that Venn diagram.

Be nice if a big chunk of the military budget went on education and training so young people could learn a trade without joining up. Could even send some of them overseas to help out where needed.

[quote=Mackem ]Well, that's the biggest problem isn't it?Aye, but you can't expect the government to do something about it. They'd rather spend £13Bn on two floating penis extensions than apply those funds to creating more non-military training opportunities and thereby also reducing their ability to wage war.

Do those subs actually get used? Actually. Have they finished building them? Complete farce.

Anyone who serves in the armed forces is there for us. The civies, yes sometimes its not the right theatre; Iraq 2003. However anyone there would also have been to Bosnia, Afghanistan, etc etc.

There may not be any physical injuries on some but there will be memories etc that trouble at times.

There does seem to be quite a lot of intersection on that Venn diagram.

Sadly there are people who think like the BNP and Britain First.

H4H is one of the main charities I support. One of my biggest regrets is not at least joining up for the reserves when I was younger. Our armed forces are more than a fighting force and I have the utmost respect for them and gratitude for any of them, especially the ones who have lost their lives or been injured. As for Britain First, I don't think my views can be any further from theirs. I am only too happy for the UK to help people fleeing war and poverty any way we can.

I can see the op's point. Many might not be hero's but I tell you what despite my pacifist leanings and anti war ideals, anyone who goes and does what they do on our behalf should have the best of everything when they return. Which brings to my wider point why are these things funded by charity. Its wrong, lile macmillan, it should just be done on the nhs.

I was referring to the aircraft carriers. One is "nearing completion" the other has a bot currently sailing around Scotland to Rosyth.

Mind you we won't have an operational fixed-wing capability on them until at least 2020.....

Charities are the cheap alternative for the government, charities are enablers. It allows the government to get away with woefully inadequate levels of support for the injury/hardship/etc. The more of these charities that pop up, the less they have to do for their current/former employees.

As a side note, I'm still serving and I've never given a penny to H4H and nor will I, having had the inside line on the finances and wages, it left me with a bitter taste. My money goes to the RBL and the ABF. They have stood by the Army in particular for many years and offer a far wider range of support options to those serving and those not.

**** me, I'm anti war as much as anyone and I'm an ex squaddie.
The point is, these people were sent to war by someone elected by the british people on our behalf.
You can't just rinse your hands of it.
Blair got 40-odd% of the votes in 97 and 2001 and 30something % in 2005 well after the wars were started.
Thinking that wars are wrong is absolutely correct in the vast majority of cases, it doesne't mean you can't have compassion for those hurt by it (on both sides).
And jesus christ, all this trained killer nonsense is pure bullshit espoused by those with a serious misunderstanding of what drives most people to join the forces.

wrecker - Member
**** me, I'm anti war as much as anyone and I'm an ex squaddie.
The point is, these people were sent to war by someone elected by the british people on our behalf.
You can't just rinse your hands of it.
Blair got 40-odd% of the votes in 97 and 2001 and 30something % in 2005 well after the wars were started.
Thinking that wars are wrong is absolutely correct in the vast majority of cases, it doesne't mean you can't have compassion for those hurt by it (on both sides).
And jesus christ, all this trained killer nonsense is pure bullshit espoused by those with a serious misunderstanding of what drives most people to join the forces.

Nope, I definitely joined because I wanted to go to far off places and kill the locals. 🙄

I'm with AA and wrecker above.

Frankly, I'm not getting the OPs point. It's a charity. If you don't like it, don't give it any money. If you don't like what it calls itself, why GAF?

Nope, I definitely joined because I wanted to go to far off places and kill the locals.

DP

Frankly, I'm not getting the OPs point. It's a charity. If you don't like it, don't give it any money. If you don't like what it calls itself, why GAF?

I can see where you're coming from. The problem is that there's a chain of logic:

soldiers are heroes -> support our troops -> don't criticise the wars they're in

I think BenCooper nailed it above.