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I think I speak for everyone on this thread, the UK has a knowledge based economy and YOU - Edukator - are a wierdo.
I think I speak for everyone on this thread, the UK has a knowledge based economy and YOU - Edukator - lack knowledge.
FTFY?
Molgrips, ok, maybe not [i]exactly[/i] the same price, but certainly in the same ballpark, whereas the UK is not even close now. Transport costs would be massively reduced (Reynolds not making tubing in UK and shipping it to Taiwan to be built into frames for example) which would probably make quite a difference. It would need proper scale though, it would be very interesting to know how many frames each far eastern factory produces, because that's probably the numbers you'd need to be talking.
Brant, we aren't set up for it, you can come and visit the workshop and then you will realise why 100 frames would take me all year and 1000 would be a lifetimes work.
High tech stuff is something the Chinese are getting very good at. They produce graduates with ambition in abundance so I think that counting on always being one step ahead in technological terms is a thing of the past.
In Europe the worker revolutions through the centuries have slowly improved working conditions. The last french socialist government gave us a 35h week. All very good, but under the current regime I can't see the chinese out on mass strikes and protests demanding a minimum wage, six weeks holiday, a 37h week, pood mensions and health care.
I therefore expect China to overtake us in the technology stakes and still benefit from a cheap labour pool for as long as the single-party communist regime lasts. Either we adopt protectionist policies to counter the chinese protectionism I've laready outlined or that balnce of trade graph I posted will keep on plunging.
More insults I see. Always a sign I'm on the right track.
They produce graduates with ambition in abundance so I think that counting on always being one step ahead in technological terms is a thing of the past
We will be ahead because we have nowhere else to go. All these businessmen and entrepreneurs are unlikely to just sit around going 'well that's that, then'. We're already ahead in high tech stakes - as they progress, so will we. They'll end up where we are, the world's cheap stuff will be made in Africa and we'll all be driving hovercars wearing silver jumpsuits.
Buy silver jumpsuit futures, now!
A positive for the British economy is that FTSE companies make so much of their money abroad. The negative is that ownership of those FTSE companies is slowly but steadily moving abroad too. Run atrade deficit and foreigners will have pounds intheri pockets, beware what they choose to buy.
We also have pounds in our pockets though Edukator.
Spend them wisely, Molgrips. How you and your countrymen do so will have more influence on your future than the way you vote.
The good thing about UK companies having their manufacturing done in the Far East is that they can spend a greater percentage of their investment on things like customer service.
Oh - that's not really working out either then.......
My chart shows that there are now 500 people working in a Chinese factory that could be working in a British factory.
Anything we can do they can do cheaper.
How are you going to resolve the difference between those two statements?
I really doubt there could be a UK factory established to turn out frames at the quality and price of those in the Far East. The economics are so dramatically against it you'd need a massive leap forward in efficient manufacturing technology, cheaper energy, a cheaper workforce, cheaper logistics, cheaper rent and a fair wind. I am baffled as to how anyone would think differently - all those big companies that do it for a living have gone there to manufacture on more than a whim.
Spend them wisely, Molgrips
I do my best!
The good thing about UK companies having their manufacturing done in the Far East is that they can spend a greater percentage of their investment on things like [s]customer service[/s] research and development
A few suggestions then:
A devaluation of the pound, euro and other eurozone currencies versus the yuan.
A transport green tax at the point of entry of goods into Europe paid to the EU thus ending the need for countries to pay for the EU. Paid on a kg x km basis depending on the means of transport. Paid by out-going tourists too on the basis of a weigh-in with their lugggage.
A reduction in taxes on work (NI etc). A minimum company tax rate of 25% across Europe with the tax payable at a national level. No more centralising profits in the country with the lowest tax rate.
Exoneration from local property taxes for manufacturing industries.
Some other sectors could be included such as renewalbles.
Interest free loans for manufacturing companies in which no one is paid more than 10 times the lowest paid worker and dividends are only paid once the loan has been paid back.
I have more but that'll do for now.
Did brant ever think because he was firewalled in china his post on STW would turn into a far eastern manufacturing thread??? Probably
I have to agree with molgrips We are good at high tech manufacturing and ideas ,the problem is the chinese have such a penchant to learn very quickly and deploy "our so called technology" to this end I think it puts companies off even considering development.
In further responses I have looked at this for a long time but from a tech angle as its the only advantage we could bring to the table for a while. We already have the technology so I don't think the odds are stacked against us significantly even for something as simple as 9 little tubes welded together.They have a lower labour rate which is n't the whole story
In looking at ways of producing a steel frame its perfectly feasable to buy a tube laser and never need to touch a tube also a robot to weld 3D cad and cam and a frame jig that's computer controlled allows this however say you got an order for 1000 frames even at 300 quid a time thats only 300k!!! (granted I am talking new machinery) well tbh I didnt cover the cost of the machinery and It would take some big balls to lay out that kind of money knowing you could be out of buisness in a couple of years unless you diversified into something else also
I spoke at length to Paul at Reynolds regarding their tube costs 853 for example ,I can make a carbon tube with the same mechanical properties for half than cost the Reynolds list shows an 853 down tube. When you see the cost of the 853 tube from Fairing its cheaper to ship it in from abroad and iirc the tube isn't shipped from here to there its made there but my memory is fuzzy on that one, when you do the sums you can't compete even at Reynolds UK 50+ pricing when you total the cost of tubing in 853 there's not much change from £200 so that's 200k gone in tubing on 1000 frames sure you can switch to 725 631 525 for cheaper bits but who wants that
You guys aren't interested in the fact the tube did the same job with slightly lower mechanical properties or elongation to failure being similar or even that you can take 100 tube weldments have them tested and see a variance of 35% across them depending on the weld rod used
These are details that only techie weirdos are interested in which is a small market or the kind of buzz that a custom framebuilder will try to heap on .
The frame factories have it dialled sure you could improve the quality and hype it to death eek a bit more ££ but they can manufacture something that does the job to a price and even when they have a somewhat ropey QC it still works out ok ,Its a collection of 9 tubes melted together painted and shipped in a box with your companies sticker on.
A few suggestions then:
And Brant can get those into place exactly how?
Are full stops cheaper overseas too?
Are full stops cheaper overseas too?
**** knows?
China will have a workers revolution, it is inevitable. They will also have a bust after their boom. The latter is likely to happen first, but could lead to the former.
Did they not already have a worker's revolution?
Exoneration from local property taxes for manufacturing industries.
Hmm, interesting. How does encouraging manufacturing fit in with your hard-line eco stance, Edukator? Surely manufacturing NEEDS to decrease because of the drain on resources? Not everything is recyclable.
Imagine a scenario where hardly anyone has cars, and all our IT and entertainment needs are met with a single personal device (not too far off now, actually) - that would result in far less stuff being manufactured, so how would that affect the global economy?
Compositepro - your carbon frames are cheaper than locally made steel? I have no problem with that 🙂 I would rather have a carbon frame tbh.
Heres a prediction.
(Longterm). China is growing massively, there is no way the one-party leadership can stop peoples aspirations, thirst for goods and eventually freedom etc etc. The country is also too big to stay in one piece as it quasi-twists into a 'consumer' itself. You can't offer the people goods in a controlled state. You can offer people controlled Communism with minimistic goods and control them..
I see it split into seperate countries one day. Not even the million strong army can stop that....
there is no way the one-party leadership can stop peoples aspirations, thirst for goods and eventually freedom
I get the impression that the authorities are well aware of this and are planning for it. They are drip-feeding freedoms to the population as they feel they are needed. Could be the real reason for the media control...
I agree - the Chinese leadership are deliberatly allowing consumerism to flourish whilst retaining full control over government - it's a tricky line to walk but I can see that allowing people economic freedom and increased standards of living will stop there being any great push for political reform for some time.
Of course if they don't deliver on the economic success then there will be change.
Plus, I always wondered why they 'let' Taiwan have so much freedom without clamping down. Its almost as though they are slowly allowing freedom isn't it?
The biggest problem in China is water. Mongolia has Lake Hushgvol. Cue regional hostility.....
they 'let' Taiwan have feedom because the US made it very clear that any invasion would be met with a military response - until the last few years the Chinese knew they woudl lose such a conflict.
Now, despite military advances, they realise that upsettign the US too muc woudl affect their economy so badly they can't afford to do it.
Plus, I always wondered why they 'let' Taiwan have so much freedom without clamping down. Its almost as though they are slowly allowing freedom isn't it?
Well there is the fact that the USA wouldn't allow China to invade, and as with Hong Kong the nearby presence of the Running Dogs of Capitalism aids the Chinese economy.
I've just read this. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Maos-Great-Famine-Devastating-Catastrophe/dp/0747595089 It's mind-boggling how any nation ever managed to recover from that.
Question is, if I was Brant in China I'd be running around all nailing alot of Chinese honeys 8)
That's not a question hora....
If every supplier pays for one he'll have trouble getting through them before it's time to fly home.
Me "hard-line eco", I own a car FFS, and I've driven 110km in it so far this year, Molgrips. How about "pragamtic supporter of sustainable development".
We have to produce all the solar panels, heat pumps and windmills somewhere. It's more ecological to do it closer to the point of consumtion. My solar panels were made in Leipzig but I could have paid a lot less for chinese ones full of polluting and non-recyclable elements.
It's more ecological to do it closer to the point of consumtion
No it isn't. Closer to the source of raw materials would be a lower impact as you transport the (smaller, lighter) finished article further than the (bulky, heavy) unprocessed raw materials.
Correct Too Tall. The raw materials to make the biggest heaviest bits of most hings are available here in Europe. In the context of this thread, shipping Reynolds 853 to China then shipping the finished frame back is not good. Aluminium is made near here, shipping it to Italy, China, then back to France could and should be avoided.
Went away, came back and this thread has turned to poo.
When I say hard-line, I am going by the stuff you say on here. Let's face it, you are the most strident eco man on STW.
Re Aluminium, I think it should be made where the renewable energy is ie next to a hydroelectric power station, because it takes enormous amounts of leccy to extract from ore.
[i]Aluminium is made near here[/i]
where does the bauxite come from?
Historically the bauxite in France came from Brignoles and was smelted in factories such as the one in St Jean de Maurienne cyclists and skiers will be familiar with. You can't do much better than that in terms of keeping transport down.
Pechiney got taken over by Alcan then by Rio Tinto and now looks like being sold off to the Chinese who'll probably shut down the French plant. We'll see.
it would be better if the Aluminium were made in China then as that's where all the factories are 😉
Evening. Half past midnight and I really should be in bed. Fun day at three carbon factories (neither of which were owned by Italians or where Paul Farrell worked).
Interesting thing going on here which I'm not fully up on but essentially I keep getting told:-
"the government is trying to make workers return to their home town and work in factories there, rather than travel and live away from their hometown. This is making a problem for factories that rely on skilled labour from far away".
Don't fully understand it, but will try to learn more.
Visited completely awesome factory today. Amazingly high level of worker care, facilities, quality product... painting areas with vacuum "airlock" type doors to stop dust getting in. Amazing.
Bed now.
And some of the posters on here still seem to think the Chinese can't do high tech.
Fais de beaux rêves.
they've obviously not seen shanghai recently 😯
however I've been on a train where the toilet was a hole onto the track with a foot operated hatch (if it's not broke....) I didnt use it as it looked like someone had been stabbed to death and bleed shit everywhere (I had a quick piss on my tiptoes and let my turn bake for a few hours)
We still have trains with toilets like that in France but we also have the fastest trains on the planet with some high tech toilets. To be honest I prefer the old train toilets - a nice blast of fresh air as they never close properly and even the French can't block them.
you French?
Yes, English too.
Passport?
I've only got a French passport at present but could get a British one.
And some of the posters on here still seem to think the Chinese can't do high tech.
That's not what I said at all.
we also have the fastest trains on the planet with some high tech toilets.
does france have maglev? the one in shanghai goes over 430kph.
The TGV has done 574.8km/h. The one I took to Metz did 320km/h IIRC.
Compositepro:
In looking at ways of producing a steel frame its perfectly feasable to buy a tube laser and never need to touch a tube also a robot to weld 3D cad and cam and a frame jig that's computer controlled allows this however say you got an order for 1000 frames even at 300 quid a time thats only 300k!!!
I know a company that already does that in the uk for other products and is looking to diversify.
Very nice set up and will Jig and CNC Laser profile tubes direct from CAD data
I doubt 1000 frames a year would trouble them either 😉
No, you said this, Molgrips:
"[i]Let the Chinese do what they can well (make stuff cheaply) and let us do what we can do well (make money form money and innovate).[/i] "
They have more money than us to make money from and are very good at innovating. Have a look at the DealExtreme site.
innovating
do they still 'innovate' through reverse engineering, or do they actually innovate now
If Giant bicycles are anything to go by they innovate without any need for reverse engineering. Ask Brant, he's the one doing a tour of Chinese design offices and manufacturing facilities. Where else in the world can you find much of that stuff on the DealExtreme site? If you can find it elsewhere it's someone like Brant that sells it having chosen a design, personalised it and asked the chinese to put his stickers on their product.
What's inside all those expensive British bicycle lights? Chinese designed and built components.
I have a feeling the Chinese are not being given enough credit.* And that probably suits them just fine.
* Not in the financial sense. 🙂
If patent filings are any indicator of how innovative a country is then [url= http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2011/12/21/patent-filings-up-worldwide-outpacing-gdp-growth/id=21344/ ]China is innovating lots.[/url] Though curiously only a small proportion are filed abroad. Probably only the the most significant innovations. Let's not forget the Americans have umpteen patents for the unequal quadrangle that the European don't feel the need for.
No, you said this, Molgrips:
Yes, which wasn't what you originally suggested.
We do innovate well, they do make stuff well. That's not to say that they can't innovate, of course, just that we do it well.
This debate really isn't going anywhere, you don't have any real facts or experience yet you seem to be trying to make it into an adversarial debate rather than a general discussion about the Chinese economy.
No because my comment was mainly aimed at Retrodirect, Molgrips. Thisisnotaspoon justified making it plural but you were the one that felt targeted. Funny that. As for adversarial, I have no hesitation in suggesting you reread your own posts.
I don't need to re-read your own posts, I know what they say and yet I still think you are being adversarial. Lots of good posts on here and interesting insight into the economics of outsourced production. None of them from you - you just seem to want me to admit that we're all doomed.
I of course don't know what's going to happen, but I would expect we'd reach a happy medium with economies co-operating whilst playing to their strengths. It's in everyone's best interests of course.
Now you're getting personal in addition to being adversarial and insulting my inteligence, Molgrips. I really do suggest you reread your own posts.
I havzen't asked you to admit anything, I have simply provided information that demonstrates that the Chinese can innovate and have money to make money with as well as being able to manufacture cheaply which puts them in a very strong position, dominant even.
If you look back it was me that started the deabte on out-sourced production with my first post and then a balance of payments graph.
I know a company that already does that in the uk for other products and is looking to diversify.Very nice set up and will Jig and CNC Laser profile tubes direct from CAD data
I doubt 1000 frames a year would trouble them either
I wouldn't want to build 1000 frames fella because there's no profit in it.I know what your saying in terms of buisnesses with the equipment already being out there but this also brings with it other problems.
I was trying to highlight the fact that If you want a complete 853 frame built here the tube cost is roughly just under 200 quid ,even using the other tubes in the range 725 631 etc at Qty prices you still are biting a large chunk of £110(but lets be honest the 853 sticker is what people want)So to compete with cheap labour you could only use modern manufacturing and eliminate or minimise the fabrication cost it's not impossible but to do it for something as simple as a bicycle frame becomes quite a piece of value engineering. This hasn't included welding braze ons ,paint prep alignment or QC
BUT YOU CAN BUY A VERY POPULAR FRAME FOR 199 QUID
When you move up to Carbon and TI then yes the spreadsheet full of numbers pops out a figure that you can compete at a price which you might be able to get away with using a made in britain price tag and wouldn't be a million miles away from a Thai/Chi price
But then again only if your a maniac trying to prove a point you might eek a living you are going to make from it isn't going to make you rich by any means but might give you a sense of pride
I was told by someone much wiser than me who understands the steel market the best way is to add value to your product. If that's geometry or niche or whatever the only real way for a UK guy to manufacture frames here and make money is to build custom frame's to fit each customer and rely on the skill There's still an contingent of people who will be loyal to the handcrafted bike frame but unfortunately unlike the USA the young guns aren't coming through or are still learning
Now if you could offer every customer a production frame which was custom made just for them that might add value.
But then again I think thermoplastics will return very soon add some 3d braids and the whole carbon market will be a cash cow again
If Giant bicycles are anything to go by they innovate without any need for reverse engineering
Pretty poor example considering they stole the DW link design. They do pretty much nick every design they are asked to build.
Comp Pro
We need to talk, are you not getting my emails, we have some great ideas bubbling away and we need to meet up
I have simply provided information that demonstrates that the Chinese can innovate
I most expressly did not say that the Chinese can't innovate.
can they Chinnovate?
Comp ProWe need to talk, are you not getting my emails, we have some great ideas bubbling away and we need to meet up
No will check now.
The DW link design is one of those many unequal quadrangles that frankly don't deserve a patent. Four bars were used on competition cars for years before Horst put one on a bike. Have a look at the 1959 Mini front suspension, it's a four bar. Short links, long links, rocking up, rocking down. They're all unequal quadrangles with a hinge at each corner and the Greeks knew how to draw them. Anyhow, in Europe you can put your pivots where you want and sell your bike without worrying about those American patents.
Intellectual property is all very well but should the Sketchamatic designer get royalties on Apple's thing that looks like the thing the guys in Star Trek paraded around with and why are Trek bicycles not paying royalties to the Star Trek people? The patents business is another one that needs some sorting out that goes beyond a series of law suits.
Edit: I didn't say you did, Molgrips, read again please, I said the Chinese are good at innovating.
Sorry educator but I trust the integrity and ability of the professional US patent office to judge the worthiness of patent protection over some bloke on the interweb. It's a shame that small innovators like weagle can still get trampled only big corporations in this day and age IMHO.
It's not some bloke on the Internet, it's the European patents people that haven't deemed four-bar designs worthy of a patent (though the Renault NRS one applies in Europe I think). It's a form of protectionism that regularly gets challenged in various courts in various countries. German courts recently ruled against Samsung's computer thing that looks too much like Apple's according to the court.
The US patent system has different rules. You can patent an idea in the US, I think here it has to be an actual thing.
Amazon patented one-click ordering in the US, they couldn't do it here.
Edit: I didn't say you did, Molgrips, read again please
Well you kept telling me they could, which would stronly imply that you thought I was saying the opposite.
And I don't know if you realise that saying 'please read again' is implying that I'm being stupid, and is passive-aggressive.
But anyway, who cares? Let's talk about manufacturing.
You care, Molgrips.
"let us...let them"
I stated the Chinese were doing both very well in response. I could have read all sorts of things into your "us" and "them" division but didn't. I simply stated the Chinese are successfully doing both which doesn't imply anything at all.
"Please read again" is a polite way of saying "you're putting words in my mouth again, you're acusing me of saying things I have not, you're trying to make me out to be a villain by distorting what I have said".
I'd expect a more intelligent post from you Edukator.
Now what were you implying when you wrote that on page 4, Molgrips? I think most people would agree that you're saying my post was stupid. I think it's better to disagree and put up a solid counter argument than cast aspersions on the intelligence of one's "adversary".
Anyhow, that balance of payments graph is going to continue its downward trend for as long as much of what you buy has "made in China/Taiwan" on it.
So mutual misunderstanding then. I was retaliating to you as you were retaliating to me.
That graph you posted - what exactly is the significance? We pay out more money than we receive? But we also make money here, don't we.
Edukator, why are you prolonging the argument when mol was obviously trying to let it go?
Time to be nice.
It's not some bloke on the Internet, it's the European patents people that haven't deemed four-bar designs worthy of a patent
I doubt specialized are too bothered about that, the US market would be the better one to have.
I thought that the DW patent stood up in Europe though?
We still have 45 wage packets to pay this month - be it made in uk / italy / usa / taiwan / china .
We currently assemble around 4000 bikes in the UK - thats 4000 more than most bicycle companies - thats 5 full time cytec mechanics , well 4 and Mark Lovatt who is really a 1.5 .
We don't live in France .
We do create employment for British people - designers , accountants , mechanics , pick packers , returns , goods in , marketing , finance , HR , and a great long list that seems to get bigger (by the way we have a few jobs going if anyone is looking - returns / showroom / pick pack / goods in).
We do work again with Roberto Billato who in 1988 was my first ever frame supplier and one of the renowned Italian frame builders of the last generation who kept his Italian production until his business disappeared when both the US and Italian brands he produced for went "offshore". He then worked for Museeuw and left .
We produce the on-one slackest headset in the UK , we do assemble with Hope headsets / seat posts , we do assemble bikes with Middleburn cranks - all manufactured in the UK and we give these companies regular ongoing orders . We did design our stealth TT bars with Nick Hamilton at SERG .
We have sponsored and supported a number of British athletes both pro and amateur going back 20 years - Nick Craig , Spencer Smith 3 time world triathlon champ , Julie Dibens world xterra champ , Ryan Mullen junior champ , Ian Stannard now with sky , John Tanner twice british pro champion , Mark Lovatt 6 time winner of the tour of the peak , Wayne Randle commonwealth bronze medalist , Paul Curran legend of british cycling , Rob Harris national road champion , Kev Dawson 9 times BBAR , Cat Morrison world duathlon champion , Ray Eden points winner Ras , not to mention The trials kings Danny Holroyd etc .
You don't employ anyone who has a scooby about customer service.
Will someone PLEASE send the Onion a frame. Any frame. A picture frame. A subframe. Damn it I'll send him my Scandal frame myself!
But anything to stop him whining!!!! 😉
😀
Ah yes...customer service...daveplanetx, could I pop along to your stand at the london bike show with a returns item and save some postage by handing it over?
Is this seriously six pages of bitching about China?
Sorry, but I can't be assed to read it all 😀
Best not drop off a returns at a show , thats a very bad idea, best to follow our returns process
Sorry our customer service has not been good for you , we are trying hard in general . Sometimes stuff slips through . Brant has tried to pick it up for you , but if you want me to intervene ping me the details by pm please and I will do so as well .
I think its a little unfair to tarnish our company and entire customer service team with we "don't employ anyone with a scooby about customer service" - its maybe a touch on the harsh side .