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Insult the punters. Poor modding.
Sigh!!!
Argumentive as ever that's why I was so excited to see you.
No. My point was there's always two side to a story and still is.
Insult the punters. Poor modding.
🙄
You're on a roll Drac 🙂
Just don't like the double standards.
If it's not ok to speculate. And you are going to pull people up on it.
Probably best not to wait a few hours, and then start speculating yourself.
And also, if you are going to criticise people for being argumentative.
It's probably better if you don't ignore a valid point so you can jump straight to deliberately antagonising the "punter" who made it.
Drac - Moderator
Look everyone Neal has arrived
😆
You owe me one spilled pint
I've edited the post now (so this will make no sense).
That's okay Cougar it'll just fit in well with 99% of all other posts so we're both safe 🙂
What's occurring? Any chance of a summary?
Some bloke said
And them some other folks said
And basically someone is away with the fairies
But also someone else is on WGAS bro co
So Trousergate
And some photons got entangled or untangled
allthepies - Member
Insult the punters. Poor modding.
nealglover - Member
deliberately antagonising the "punter" who made it.
P is for Punter
What's occurring? Any chance of a summary?
Sure.
To Kill a Mockingbird takes place in Alabama during the Depression, and is narrated by the main character, a little girl named Jean Louise "Scout" Finch. Her father, Atticus Finch, is a lawyer with high moral standards. Scout, her brother Jem, and their friend Dill are intrigued by the local rumors about a man named Boo Radley, who lives in their neighborhood but never leaves his house. Legend has it that he once stabbed his father in the leg with a pair of scissors, and he is made out to be a kind of monster. Dill is from Mississippi but spends his summer in Maycomb at a house near the Finch's.
The children are curious to know more about Boo, and during one summer create a mini-drama they enact daily, which tells the events of his life as they know them. Slowly, the children begin moving closer to the Radley house, which is said to be haunted. They try leaving notes for Boo on his windowsill with a fishing pole, but are caught by Atticus, who firmly reprimands them for making fun of a sad man's life. Next, the children try sneaking over to the house at night and looking through its windows. Boo's brother, Nathan Radley, who lives in the house, thinks he hears a prowler and fires his gun. The children run away, but Jem loses his pants in a fence. When he returns in the middle of the night to get them back, they have been neatly folded and the tear from the fence roughly sewn up.
Other mysterious things happen to the Finch children. A certain tree near the Radley house has a hole in which little presents are often left for them, such as pennies, chewing gum, and soap carved figures of a little boy and girl who bear a striking resemblance to Scout and Jem. The children don't know where these gifts are coming from, and when they go to leave a note for the mystery giver, they find that Boo's brother has plugged up the hole with cement. The next winter brings unexpected cold and snow, and Miss Maudie's house catches on fire. While Jem and Scout, shivering, watch the blaze from near the Radley house, someone puts a blanket around Scout without her realizing it. Not until she returns home and Atticus asks her where the blanket came from does she realize that Boo Radley must have put it around her while she was entranced by watching Miss Maudie, her favorite neighbor, and her burning house.
Atticus decides to take on a case involving a black man named Tom Robinson who has been accused of raping a very poor white girl named Mayella Ewell, a member of the notorious Ewell family, who belong to the layer of Maycomb society that people refer to as "trash." The Finch family faces harsh criticism in the heavily racist Maycomb because of Atticus's decision to defend Tom. But, Atticus insists on going through with the case because his conscience could not let him do otherwise. He knows Tom is innocent, and also that he has almost no chance at being acquitted, because the white jury will never believe a black man over a white woman. Despite this, Atticus wants to reveal the truth to his fellow townspeople, expose their bigotry, and encourage them to imagine the possibility of racial equality.
Because Atticus is defending a black man, Scout and Jem find themselves whispered at and taunted, and have trouble keeping their tempers. At a family Christmas gathering, Scout beats up her cloying relative Francis when he accuses Atticus of ruining the family name by being a "****-lover". Jem cuts off the tops of an old neighbor's flower bushes after she derides Atticus, and as punishment, has to read out loud to her every day. Jem does not realize until after she dies that he is helping her break her morphine addiction. When revealing this to Jem and Scout, Atticus holds this old woman up as an example of true courage: the will to keep fighting even when you know you can't win.
The time for the trial draws closer, and Atticus's sister Alexandra comes to stay with the family. She is proper and old-fashioned and wants to shape Scout into the model of the Southern feminine ideal, much to Scout's resentment. Dill runs away from his home, where his mother and new father don't seem interested in him, and stays in Maycomb for the summer of Tom's trial. The night before the trial, Tom is moved into the county jail, and Atticus, fearing a possible lynching, stands guard outside the jail door all night. Jem is concerned about him, and the three children sneak into town to find him. A group of men arrive ready to cause some violence to Tom, and threaten Atticus in the process. At first Jem, Scout and Dill stand aside, but when she senses true danger, Scout runs out and begins to speak to one of the men, the father of one of her classmates in school. Her innocence brings the crowd out of their mob mentality, and they leave.
The trial pits the evidence of the white Ewell family against Tom's evidence. According to the Ewells, Mayella asked Tom to do some work for her while her father was out, and Tom came into their house and forcibly beat and raped Mayella until her father appeared and scared him away. Tom's version is that Mayella invited him inside, then threw her arms around him and began to kiss him. Tom tried to push her away. When Bob Ewell arrived, he flew into a rage and beat her, while Tom ran away in fright. According to the sheriff's testimony, Mayella's bruises were on the right side of her face, which means she was most likely punched with a left hand. Tom Robinson's left arm is useless due to an old accident, whereas Mr. Ewell leads with his left. Given the evidence of reasonable doubt, Tom should go free, but after hours of deliberation, the jury pronounces him guilty. Scout, Jem and Dill sneak into the courthouse to see the trial and sit in the balcony with Maycomb's black population. They are stunned at the verdict because to them, the evidence was so clearly in Tom's favor.
Though the verdict is unfortunate, Atticus feels some satisfaction that the jury took so long deciding. Usually, the decision would be made in minutes, because a black man's word would not be trusted. Atticus is hoping for an appeal, but unfortunately Tom tries to escape from his prison and is shot to death in the process. Jem has trouble handling the results of the trial, feeling that his trust in the goodness and rationality of humanity has been betrayed.
Meanwhile, Mr. Ewell threatens Atticus and other people connected with the trial because he feels he was humiliated. He gets his revenge one night while Jem and Scout are walking home from the Halloween play at their school. He follows them home in the dark, then runs at them and attempts to kill them with a large kitchen knife. Jem breaks his arm, and Scout, who is wearing a confining ham shaped wire costume and cannot see what is going on, is helpless throughout the attack. The elusive Boo Radley stabs Mr. Ewell and saves the children. Finally, Scout has a chance to meet the shy and nervous Boo. At the end of this fateful night, the sheriff declares that Mr. Ewell fell on his own knife so Boo, the hero of the situation, won't have to be tried for murder. Scout walks Boo home and imagines how he has viewed the town and observed her, Jem and Dill over the years from inside his home. Boo goes inside, closes the door, and she never sees him again.
On the deleted thread, Weren't you the one scoffing at anyone who was speculating without knowing the full facts of the matter ?o
Yes but it seems it's okay to speculate if it makes hebcotro look good.
Drac definitely seems to have taken this personally, it's almost as if he knows the people involved. That's pure speculation of course so feel free to fire some childish retort.
That should be written in B&W under a lot of ceiling fans whilst wearing denim dungarees..
Denim! Boom full circle
Denim! Boom full circle
Japanese Okinawa, White Oak Cone Mills from the US? Or the cheap stuff sewn in Turkey?
These things matter.
I buy a lot at TKMAX.
I can see a Kickstarter campaign
Drac definitely seems to have taken this personally, it's almost as if he knows the people involved. That's pure speculation of course so feel free to fire some childish retort.
I do know them that's no secret but that wasn't the reason I just get sick of people using social media for smear campaigns, people rallying the pitchforks and there only be one side to story.
Blimey you're still going on with the childish campaign.
I just get sick of people using social media for smear campaigns
And I agreed when you were telling people not to speculate without knowing the facts from both sides.
And I still do.
If it seems you don't anymore.
I buy a lot at TKMAX.
You're a monster!
If it seems you don't anymore.
Another misquote there Ernie. 🙄
Another misquote there Ernie
Que ?
Just don't like the double standards.
Like conflating "user" and "moderator"?
Yes but it seems it's okay to speculate if it makes hebcotro look good.
It's ok to speculate period. It's offering speculation as fact which is problematic.
It may come as a surprise to some, but the moderation team are volunteers. We have no vested interest beyond wanting the forum to succeed.
Personally I'd be concerned about a smear campaign regarding a company spread across STW which could possibly destroy the livelihood of a company based on a loose grasp of 'facts' though.
Any chance of a summary?
HebTroCo and their manufacturer have had a falling out. A potentially libellous thread was started and was closed by Mark with an explanation (TL;DR: he's protecting STW as a publisher). The userbase then took it upon themselves to create 37 threads about it.
What little I know I posted on the previous page [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/hebden-bridge-trouser-company/page/16#post-8540078 ]here[/url].
[i]Blimey you're still going on with the childish campaign.[/i]
Hardly a campaign, you made a childish comment to one of my posts which I noted and made childish comments to others. More an observation than campaign.
In the Short Trouser War of June 2017, not to be confused with the Shorttrouser War.
There was, as there is in so many unnecessary conflicts, some collateral damage and some PTSD and, in the words of an eye witness, a Mr Google
So people don't like it that 2 blokes are having a go in a very difficult industry that has all but died in this country. They also seem not to like the fact that they look to be succeeding by offering goods made in the North of England to a high standard with a lifetime guarantee. They are also probably pissed off with the fact that they are providing people with employment.
Sounds like jealousy to me.
You're seeing now a veteran of a thousand trouser wars,
My energy is spent at last, and my trousers are destroyed,
I have used up all my seams, and I'm helpless and bereaved.
So people don't like it that 2 blokes are having a go in a very difficult industry that has all but died in this country. They also seem not to like the fact that they look to be succeeding by offering goods made in the North of England to a high standard with a lifetime guarantee. They are also probably pissed off with the fact that they are providing people with employment.
Sounds like jealousy to me.
That seems to be willfully missing the point.
Company launches off a certain heritage.
Company, once established, may possibly, or not, have moved away from that original ethos.
Buns get thrown.
Jamie, I'm just adding to the wild speculation 😆
Just don't like the double standards.
Like conflating "user" and "moderator"?
Let's be honest, it's not even close to similar really is it.
Jamie, I'm just adding to the wild speculation
Of course you would say that....what with that thing I've heard you do at nights.
Que ?
You chopped the crucial part of my post something you like to do with others.
Anyway my supper has arrived so I'll let carry on.
What's happening here, at lunchtime the thread was closed and was going to be deleted in 20 minutes (from then)? Trouser manufacturing must be a key part of mountain bike riding, not that I've spotted the reason why quite yet.
I'm not keen on people using social media (this place) for self promotion but then, when there's an issue that could be easily clarified with an explanation, they are no-where to be seen.
I have used up all my seams, and I'm helpless and bereaved.
I'm sure something will turn-up.
What's happening here, at lunchtime the thread was closed and was going to be deleted in 20 minutes
Different thread.
Trouser manufacturing must be a key part of mountain bike riding, not that I've spotted the reason why quite yet.
We've all panted up hills.
Jamie - Member
Jamie, I'm just adding to the wild speculation
Of course you would say that....what with that thing I've heard you do at nights.
Trouser smuggling across the county line you mean? Doh! I've been rumbled!
Personally I'd be concerned about a smear campaign regarding a company spread across STW which could possibly destroy the livelihood of a company based on a loose grasp of 'facts' though.
Superstar Components? On One/Planet X?
We've all panted up hills.
Very good, amazing what can turn up.
Superstar Components? On One/Planet X?
All of whom are now out of business of course.
As I said just now, "It's ok to speculate period. It's offering speculation as fact which is problematic." The same is true of opinion.
Saying you think a company is shit is fine. Saying you'd had a bad experience with a company / product is fine. Satire is fine (you'll note that most of the joke threads are still live, up until the point where it became ****ing tedious and taking up a quarter of the front page anyway).
Positing statements as fact which may or may not be untrue opens up STW to potential harm.
It's really that simple. I believe my views on censorship are well documented elsewhere on the forum.
So people don't like it that 2 blokes are having a go in a very difficult industry that has all but died in this country. They also seem not to like the fact that they look to be succeeding by offering goods made in the North of England to a high standard with a lifetime guarantee. They are also probably pissed off with the fact that they are providing people with employment.
Sounds like jealousy to me.
It's not entirely dissimilar to finding out Innocent own Coke, with their cheeky "right on" marketing, having thought you were supporing something small and local/national, or that Classy and Green Pret are owned by McDonalds. Its when marketing doesn't meet reality and the consumer finds out they've effectively been lied to. And that goes for any organisation, its not a go at anyone specific, - but that advice is Para 1 of any marketing book.
If the usp is made in "Trouser town", and then they're not, and the marketing is how honest and right on the owners of any brand are, when they appear shady, and talk about their fantastic designs, when it appeared the original was a "borrowed" design that had nothing to do with them, then the point of spending 4x the average spend of a product as a premium segment product(as you're buying into that brand) has largely disappeared. And if you got to that point, whoever is right or wrong, whether its the owners of the company, or suppliers complaint, is totally irrelevant, the brand is damaged in social media backlash.
And when the guys who basically grabbed all that "free consultancy" appear to have been taking the piss? Well, tell you what, design me a great bike. We'll call it "Brand's X' flyer" (as I'm not naming anyone or speculating about anyone here specifically) Then I'll get it built by Orange. And I won't pay for the design. But I'll be really grateful for the freebee.
It's not so dissimilar to that internet joke page about the guy who gets asked for a free logo or the missing cat posters, except thats comedy, not peoples jobs.
The worst thing is the apparent "silence". That's what organisations who get caught out, like Starbucks over tax and every other corporate disaster, instinctively do, and that way is usually the most damaging to any business.
Any organisation needs to be pro active in managing their Social Media PR or they're ultimately doomed to fail.
It's not entirely dissimilar to finding out Innocent own Coke
It's not entirely dissimilar to thinking Innocent own Coke and then hitting the Internet telling everyone that they do.
I totally agree with everything you've just said, if it were true. But to the best of my understanding based on very limited information, [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/hebden-bridge-trouser-company/page/16#post-8540078 ]it's not true[/url], and that's the problem.
But to the best of my understanding based on very limited information, it's not true
Speculation, then?
Innocent own coke?
They are doing well.
Speculation, then?
That's speculation on your part. I have limited information but it's still more than you have.
Is the situation not as described in the FB post by the MD guy from Shorties then ?
You're seeing now a veteran of a thousand trouser wars,
My energy is spent at last, and my trousers are destroyed,
I have used up all my seams, and I'm helpless and bereaved.
Forsooth i am dead,
But my trousers remain red
I have limited information but it's still more than you have
Are you saying the factory guys take on events is an untruth?
I think what Cougar is saying, as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.
Is the situation not as described in the FB post by the MD guy from Shorties then ?
Are you saying the factory guys take on events is an untruth?
I'm saying it's one side of a story. I've no idea whether it's partially or wholly true or not. (Moreover, nor does anyone else here at this point, but yet they're all too quick to reach for pitchforks.) I've explained what I currently believe to be the case in an earlier post, but again I've no way of verifying that.
I think what Cougar is saying, as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.
I'm not sure about that.
I'm saying it's one side of a story. I've no idea whether it's partially or wholly true or not. (Moreover, nor does anyone else here at this point, but yet they're all too quick to reach for pitchforks.) I've explained what I currently believe to be the case in an earlier post, but again I've no way of verifying that.
Nothing stopping Brant or Ed coming on here or other social media channels to set the story straight is there? The silence is deafening, although they've been in touch with STW and thereby had adequate chance to reply. Historically they've always been fairly keen to engage through SM when there has been a chance to promote their brands, so there's a definite element of 'live by the sword, die by the sword' in choosing to now go silent.
18 pages in one day about a trouser company? Is this peak STW? Is it all downhill from here?
Edit- now I see it's an old thread resurrected! Never mind, it's still an argument about a trouser company! 🙂
one day
😀
To me it sounds like a breakdown in communications and the guy in factiry A with the grievance wasn't getting any response through his traditional communication channels so he went to SM with it like anyone else would. It was a well written and humorous account of his side of the story but we have no idea of the other side of the story. If they were expensive or can only do moleskin, if Corderoy just isn't their thing and cord is where it's at right now I can completely see why HebTroCo couldn't use them for their range expansion. It could be that the new factory that does do that stuff threw in the moleskin as part of the deal and so HTC just went for it without considering the impact on Company A. God knows they've got enough stuff on with the new range of leather goods and no doubt more.
I have to say I feel for factory A and HTC probably could have played this better but I'm not sure that this is (yet) worthy of a witch hunt.
This is pure speculation but it looks to me that HEBTROCO have grown quickly and moved to new larger premises to help meet the increasing demand for their troosers rather than the original factory where they started which appeared on their videos.Which is good news for a growing business but seems like it has caused a disagreement between Richard and the girls and HEBTROCO hence his FB post.
I get my trousers from Tesco so what do I know?
wonder what he will do if they build a factory of their own in hebden?
Have shorties shut down the contents of their Facebook page? No posts at all on it.
Apparently Brant changed the design every 6 months and the factory tooling couldn't make the latest troosers any longer, lower or slacker.
All this for hipster trousers 🙄
Its possible to follow the Google link on page 17 which gives links to the original facebook posts.
Nothing stopping Brant or Ed coming on here or other social media channels to set the story straight is there? The silence is deafening,
I don't disagree there. Unless there's a reason we're not privy to, at any rate.
To be fair. Brant is quite shy when it comes to social media and communicating with the public.
It's like reading code this thread.
I bought two pair of their trousers as I like the product and want to support a UK based business.
Like in life and especially in business things change along the way. Gassing like washer women serves no purpose especially if you've not purchased any trousers from them.
It's a business trying to do something incredibly difficult probably not making loads of money.
There's something odd about people's expectation of how a business should or shouldn't act on the internet. You have consumer choice to figure out what you want to do.
We could aim our vitriol at other stuff less worthy I'm sure.
Just posting to register my disinterest in this topic.
Does seem that what the Hebden Hipsters might, allegedly, have done isn't unknown.
Anyone want some expensive Italian (mostly made in Romania) shoes to go with those expensive Hebden Bridge (possibly, or possibly not) trousers?
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/17/revealed-the-romanian-site-where-louis-vuitton-makes-its-italian-shoes ]https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/17/revealed-the-romanian-site-where-louis-vuitton-makes-its-italian-shoes[/url]
HTC probably could have played this better but I'm not sure that this is (yet) worthy of a witch hunt.
They could have played it better, that's true.
Rather than official silence, just a quiet word to STW that the other thread was 'not nice'
Plus the subtle shift in the website's marketing direction doesn't look like a stenuous denial to me.
And I've never bought a pair. I'm not at the stage in my life where a pair of moleskin trews is the next thing I can't live without.
It's offering speculation as fact which is problematic." The same is true of opinion.
Seems to work for Jamba*
*crossing the streams but it holds true.
No idea what is going on in trousertown.
CaptainFlashheart - MemberYou're seeing now a veteran of a thousand trouser wars,
My energy is spent at last, and my trousers are destroyed,
Let us know how your warranty claim pans out.
Just read the cached thread.
I can see why people are a bit irate on both sides of this issue.
Totally mercenary of me though,I care massively more about STW than the potential issue discussed in that thread.
So having declared my mercenary values I would stw give the Mods a break to be honest. Also their reason for locking the other thread.
Just my opinion. 😀
So are they made in Hebden or not?
After reading all the "can't prove nuffin" posts on here I'm not now convinced that Hebden Bridge is a real place.
I'm now fairly sure it's twinned with Camberwick Green and Royston Vasey
Royston vasey trouser company......... Hand delivered by Barbara Dixon
[quote=HebTroCo]
We worked exclusively with Shorties until February this year, when it became clear that demand far outstripped their capability to supply all the trousers we needed.
We separated out the needlecord and corduroy, and started to use another local factory less than 25 miles from Hebden Bridge to make these trousers.
This let Shorties concentrate on production of the navy and grey moleskin, our best sellers.
Moving to another factory allowed us to make some fit changes but at a significant cost to us. New pattern drafting is not cheap but customer feedback indicated these changes have improved our product. We reworded our website, so as not to claim everything was made solely in Hebden Bridge.
Orders continued with Shorties in Hebden Bridge.
We took our new pattern back to Shorties and asked them to make them for us. Unfortunately after a number of sample attempts from Shorties, we hadn't had achieved fit or trim results that allowed us to sell trousers from either factory as the same model.
For a time we concentrated our limited resources on developing a new cloth with English Fine Cottons. The Shorties post on our Facebook page discussing a business to business arrangement came as a shock.
In spite of 90% of our moleskin stock, and 60% of total current stock having been made by Shorties, we have respected Shorties request and removed all footage and marketing material which used imagery shot in the Shorties factory building.
Building our company, in solely and irrevocably working with just one supplier does, with hindsight, seem naive and foolish. But we never expected to sell 176 pairs of trousers in 5hrs 10mins either. Let alone go on to be where we are now.
We shall continue to work with crafts people in Hebden Bridge. Ruby Creagh and Tommy Greenwood make our belts in town, Satnam ships everything from the Post Office, Print Bureau do our print, Rachel designs our logos, Kimberley does our repairs and alterations and Sean ships and packs for us.
And in addition to this we have expanded to use other factories in the north of England.
Hope this clears things up.
Cheers
brant & Ed
Shafted.
Can you un-burn a witch?
We reworded our website, so as not to claim everything was made solely in Hebden Bridge.
Does this strike anyone else as a bit weaselly? The overriding impression from their website last week was that everything was made in Hebden Bridge. This is some months after production started elsewhere.
Doesn't say whether or not they still use Shorties though, I suspect not.
Can you un-burn a witch?
yes, you drown the corpse.
Doesn't say whether or not they still use Shorties though, I suspect not.
Seems to imply that they don't (and the rant from Shorties suggests they don't) - but if you placed an order today I guess the trews you'd get would likely have been made by Shorties, in the factory pictured in the town talked about so theres no un-truth to the site as it stood. And that'll continue to be the case until that stock is all sold out. So shorties have been happy to be paid to make that stock but they now want to undermine any attempts for that stock to be sold.
I'll beat a path to their door if I ever want anything made 🙂
Can you un-burn a witch?
I wonder if Shorties can un-burn a bridge.
Doesn't say whether or not they still use Shorties though, I suspect not.
From another Facebook comment:
As the weather was warming we had already concentrated our limited resources on developing a new cloth with English Fine Cottons. This two week delay from the end of May until the 15th June clearly agitated Mr Pickles, and though we hadn't had any communication from him, since his text of the 31st May, his post on our Facebook page discussing a business to business arrangement came as a shock.In spite of 90% of our moleskin stock, and 60% of total stock that is held at this moment being made by Shorties, we followed his request and removed all footage and marketing material that we were aware of, that used imagery shot in the factory building he leases (having sold it to property developers some years ago).
[b]It is clear from his robust post that it is unlikely we will be working with them again. Though it's in some way rewarding to see that we have spurred him to launch his own direct brand.[/b]
So in essence:Saving Trousertown is achieved by manufacturing somewhere between Leeds and Manchester.
So in essence:Saving Trousertown is achieved by manufacturing somewhere between Leeds and Manchester.
Seems like there's a reason Trousertown doesn't make many pairs of trousers these days...