[Closed] Heart rate & fitness musings

Mine is sometimes as low as 38 but usually hovers around 45 when not active. I struggle to get near my max for my age ever. Doesn’t really worry me but I’d ask a doctor if it did.

http://www.crickles.org/ will give you z1-z5 heart zone estimates, along with lots of other stats for free.

After a TT I did on Thursday https://www.strava.com/activities/5009600453/analysis where my best 20min heart rate was 162, my zone estimates were revised by Crickles to...
1 Z1 < 133
2 Z2 133 - 144
3 Z3 145 - 152
4 Z4 153 - 162
5 Z5 > 162

Generally speaking, depending on my health and how well training is going, my LTHR (top of z4) tends to be in the 158-171 ballpark. I had some sort of lurgy at the end of Feb, avoided z4+ for over two weeks and I've struggled a bit since.

When I'm not drugged up on silly amounts of caffeine, which is quite rare (eg. today I've had 4/5 coffees with 2+ teaspoons of coffee plus 2l of diet coke), my sitting resting heart can be as low as ~46bpm.

Just over a week ago I hit 192bpm max, first time over 190 for well over a year, might well be influenced by putting on weight in the last month to ~82.5Kg, when I was ~76Kg just before Covid in March '20. https://www.strava.com/activities/4973918408/analysis

Aged 47, feeling like 77 of late!

HR zones are worked out on your max HR, so as long as you have the correct Max HR you don't need to change anything.

If you have been suffering from long covid it is wise to take it easy as high levels of exercise make it longer to recover from it.

The trouble with max heart rates are that unless properly tested they’re very much along the lines of guesswork, so as a result, any percentage is also guesswork.

My theoretical max (220-age) is 170. However, other than after covid last year (again this is a guess as there was no tests at the point I think I had it), and after the jab in January I can easily get above that theoretical max and hold it there until I go pop.

I think my problem is that I haven’t realised quite how much less I’m currently doing compared to the last 20-30 years. It’s sneaked up on me 😳.

As a result I keep bashing away at threshold runs but never really recovering properly or improving.

Has anyone tried the Maffetone system of training? I.e. 180 - age (and either plus or minus amounts for different factors such as medical condition) to give maximum training intensity?

HR zones are worked out on your max HR, so as long as you have the correct Max HR you don’t need to change anything.

Only in the absence of any other info.

Ideally you'd use blood lactate as tells you what's happening.

But every time I start exercising again (running or cycling at what I consider a low & slow intensity) after 30 mins I’m destroyed and it takes days to recover.

In which case you probably have some form of long Covid, so throw out all the training guides for people who aren't ill and just go by feel. You probably need to back right off and train at very low intensities and for much shorter periods until you recover.

OP how have you worked out your zones?

I don't think there's a meaningful way of guessing it - you need to get to your max or threshold.

you need to get to your max or threshold.

The OP has long Covid, he's not going anywhere near his (normal) max for a while....

Sure, if he has. I was asking how he had worked it out in the past.

I’ve undergone quite a few maximal stress and VO2max tests over the years. Treadmill or kingcycle based. I haven’t done one for years now. At 50 years old I’m now quite willing to forgo the exact figure (because it’s horrible finding out), I just don’t want to over do it, whilst at the same time I want to get some benefit or base that I can start to rebuild upon.

The wife says I’m a bit of a robot in that if left to my own devices I just go hard until I stop but if I’m told “work at this level” I can gauge my effort and stick to it. Also, I have get a little obsessed if I’m to stick to anything, so I suppose writing this in here is feeding that obsession and actually helping me focus a bit.

On a plus side, I’ve now done 3 days of 45 minute turbo sessions: warm up for 10 mins at <110bpm then 30 mins at 115-125 (my guesstimated level 2) followed by 5 mins cool down and about 20 mins of stretching.

I feel like I’m working but the following day I feel fine and can go again. I think I’ll give it a couple of weeks and see how I’m fairing recovery wise; if I’m recovering ok I’ll start to introduce a little higher intensity. And see how it goes.

An alternative to a "max" test is a 30min FTP test. You'll need a few attempts to pace it correctly. Providing you are reasonably fit being 50 is no issue (you're still a young lad compared to many) though I appreciate your current health concern. HR zone are calculated on a percentage of FTHR or max HR so no, resting HR doesn't come into it.

Incidentally my zone 2 (based of 30min test which I really should do again) is 106-129 and I'm 67. Those age based methods are intended as an average for large, diverse populations and variations can be huge.

If you really don't want to test yourself at the moment then maybe just work on "feel" - e.g. in zone 2 you should be able to hold a conversation, zone 3 just short phrases.

Looking at all that you've posted and the potential covid scenario and running aspect I'd suggest having a deep dive into the Phil Maffetone 180 formula.

However, I’ve realised that since I moved house in 2017 and then when the dog died Jan last year all of my low intensity long duration exercise has stopped. I do everything at zone 3 and above.

How are you measuring heart rate? My fitbit likes to say all my runs are spent in the peak zone. It's lying.

35 is very low. Is that a wrist-based HRM measurement? Mine goes that low on my Garmin regularly, but it's a fiction if I try and verify it by properly counting my pulse with a timer.

If it's legit, well, you are quite an outlier!

If you've got a real min and max you're confident of you can get better training zone numbers by using the % as % of range between the two, then adding on the min. I'm surprised more people don't do this as the numbers are much more commonly available now more people have HRM's

Footflaps is guessing re. the long covid, but it still sounds like you lost your base so I'd consider rebuilding that for some months, and seeing how that goes.

35 is very low. Is that a wrist-based HRM measurement? Mine goes that low on my Garmin regularly, but it’s a fiction if I try and verify it by properly counting my pulse with a timer.

If it’s legit, well, you are quite an outlier!

The couple of times when it’s dropped that low were the exact same conditions - after lunch in a dimly lit warm classroom watching powerpoints. When my head felt like it was mounted on well oiled ball bearings I did a check and saw that I’d gone that low. I did a quick radial pulse check and though it wasn’t that low at the point of measure, my counting was very close to what the garmin measured.

I’ve had a low resting heart rate since I can remember. It used to be 53-57 on waking. wear a garmin fenix 5 and have checked my resting heart rates with my polar s520 & chest strap. So far the garmin is very accurate in comparison. Pretty much identical. Is now in the 40’s on waking.

One thing of note is that the very low HR was within about 6-8 weeks of suspected covid and tied in with raised blood pressure and night time heart racing. Again, this caused me to seek medical advice and get the ECG.

Because I was encouraged by the last few days low intensity I did a 5km trail run this morning with the express aim of ignoring the hrm & going with feel. I ran purposely slow and what I would estimate was zone 2 - I could’ve easily held a conversation. The perceived level of exertion was same as the pat few days on the turbo.

Looking at my garmin connect data:
Zone 1 = 2%
Zone 2 = 18%
Zone 3 = 67%
Zone 4 = 10%

It felt excruciatingly slow - 7min/km.

That said, I feel ok.

For comparison, my last 5km run was:

Zone 1 = 1%
Zone 2 = 18%
Zone 3 = 9%
Zone 4 = 67%
Zone 5 = 1%

And my pace was 6.03/km.

Last few weeks I’ve been doing MAF training on the treadmill. Done about 6 sessions. Too early for any improvements but it’s quite a pleasant level of effort. Slight buzz without the tiredness. I tried it on the running track and found it hard to go slow enough. Much easier on treadmill. I’m a terrible runner though and have had a 6 month lay off with plantar fasciitis.

I can do MAF easily on the turbo but even on a treadmill I can’t seem to keep my heart rate down. If I walk, even briskly it’s too low, but as soon as I start a gentle jog it goes over my MAF level.

I ran purposely slow and what I would estimate was zone 2 – I could’ve easily held a conversation. The perceived level of exertion was same as the pat few days on the turbo.

Looking at my garmin connect data:
Zone 1 = 2%
Zone 2 = 18%
Zone 3 = 67%
Zone 4 = 10%

Suggests to me the your Zone 2 upper level is set too low on the Garmin as I suspected (see my previous post).

Have a resting HR of around 40 but an absolute max measured of 175 which is quite low. I spent 40 years running and racing.

Never really trained to HR I think it is a waste of time. The science is solid obvs but it is too difficult to manage consistently so never used it as a training tool. More importantly I ran with a lot of very quick lads and I don't remember any of them using it either.

theoretical zone 2 is 114-130 bpm

Who says that?

HR Zones are entirely personal, they vary hugely between people. I'd expect that if you have a low resting HR then you have a low max HR too which would be reflected in the rough guess numbers that the formulae for zones give you.

Never really trained to HR I think it is a waste of time.

Not really, it's a good tool for general rough management of effort, for example keeping a lid on your effort on the longer rides if you need it.

Of course it's possible to be quick just by randomly riding, but it's not a terribly reliable way of doing it. Some people end up hitting a good sweet spot when they do their normal rides or runs out of chance, because that's how their body likes to work. But if say, you're a sprinter, you end up smashing every climb as hard as you can because that's what your body likes to do - and it represents bad training for endurance, which is where the HRM comes in. So the existence of 'fast' people who don't use HR is not proof that HR training has no value.

My resting heart rate is normally around 32-37 (pre horrible covid infection) ive been checked by the heart specialist and he says I'm fine but I did wear a monitor for 3 days and nights to keep an eye on things and I skip beats in my sleep but apparently its OK as I'm (or was pre covid fit)
A week to ten days before I showed symptoms i noticed my sleeping hr jumped to 85-87 which was odd but then once I had covid doc said it will have been the covid hitting my system
Post covid I've struggled anytime ive pushed it ive gone back to square one, recently I've started doing plodding runs and done a couple of 10 milers and did a 14 nice and slow and felt OK, my sleeping hr is now in the late 50s, im still a long way from running any ultras (i have one booked in May and one in June doh...) but I now feel like I'm getting somewhere albeit slowly, and on the plus side with my hr a bit higher I dont have hardly any nearly blacking out / falling over episodes when I stand up too fast 🙂
As for hr zones id just forget them for now start afresh and just keep it steady you will improve with time, ive found its the only way back, my Mrs was slow and steady all the way through her recovery and she can still outrun me (and she was no where near me pre covid) because I kept pushing it too early and going backwards
Ps I got covid confirmed 20 April last year and only this month feel able to run slowly properly

I ran purposely slow and what I would estimate was zone 2 – I could’ve easily held a conversation.

I had my zones tested with blood lactate, and I could hold a conversation at Z2 quite easily. In fact, I'd estimate that Z2 is the point above which your conversation starts to be interrupted by having to breathe. On the bike, it feels ridiculously slow at first (especially if you're heavy) on the climbs, reasonable but easy on the flats, and it feels like smashing it on the descents. That's psychology for you.

Different story after 5 hours though.

Of course it’s possible to be quick just by randomly riding, but it’s not a terribly reliable way of doing it.

The alternative to HR training doesn't have to be "random"

it’s a good tool for general rough management of effort, for example keeping a lid on your effort on the longer rides if you need it.

TBF this is the only reason I have ever used it in the past. To set an upper limit that I wanted to stay below to avoid overtraining. Using different zones is almost impossible outdoors. A hill, a headwind etc when you are near a zone edge means you spend more time adjusting effort and watching for breaches than is helpful.
Also training with others. This can be extremely beneficial and I benefited from running with athletes much faster than me but my HR monitor would have told me not to do it. Of course I couldn't sustain it or repeat it too often but some hard runs for them were eyeballs out for me. Should I have said my HR monitor says no and gone for a run on my own?

35 is very low. Is that a wrist-based HRM measurement? Mine goes that low on my Garmin regularly, but it’s a fiction if I try and verify it by properly counting my pulse with a timer.

When awake, I have a resting heart rate of high 40s/low 50s. At night however it averages mid to low 40s and actually usually has a few minutes where it drops down to 36/37. This has been confirmed when measured on a 24hr ecg. Cardiologist thought it was low but didn't seem overly concerned tbf.

As far as max is concerned, only 2 days ago I did my 2nd ever ramp test which resulted in my highest ever hr of 187, which was in fact higher than the 185 I thought was max. So yeah, you literally need to be at point of exhaustion to hit your max hr.

So yeah, you literally need to be at point of exhaustion to hit your max hr.

This. So many just calculate based on a theoretical maximum because to learn it accurately hurts like hell. If its not accurate then the zones are incorrect and it becomes a waste of time. How many then retake the test?

Slowoldman, I’d actually forgot about FTHR, which is something I’ve done a few times a few years ago (British Cycling’s 30 min protocol).

On another plus side I don’t have cold symptoms today following yesterday’s run, which has been the norm for months now.

I believe I had Covid after two trips to France last February & March, which wiped me out and this may be effecting my fitness still.

This. I'm 53, RHR of 45-48 when bike race fit (and I mean 12hr TT, Cat 2 race fit), max of 185, One hour threshold of 178. Then COVID. Now resting is about 53 and exercise is typically Z1/2 walking. Take your time to recover.

👍🏻

If its not accurate then the zones are incorrect and it becomes a waste of time.

Not really. For me the difference between a workable max and a max which very much requires me to get off and have a sit-down is about 3 or 4bpm, or these days about 182 vs 185. So if your zones are out by 3bpm it's not that big of a deal given how rough training with HR is.

So if your zones are out by 3bpm it’s not that big of a deal given how rough training with HR is.

Thats why training to "feel" is much more appropriate.

Thanks everyone for their input. A week or so in at lower intensity and I was feeling spot on until my Pfizer 2nd dose yesterday. Feel ok but it’s took away my energy.