[Closed] Healthcare Insurance: Anyone have it?

Me and the wife have it through work didn’t use it for twenty years, but one brain tumour sorted for the missus and about 10k in consultants, surgery and physio for me in the last few years has definitely been worth it,

We also have 24 hour GP by video call which has been really useful during Covid.

Through work. Physio on demand is the thing I’ve used the most.

Worth it I think as I know people who have been left to die on the NHS, misdiagnosed and also someone who was still very much alive pronounced dead. The NHS is virtually non existent.
If you can afford it, I'd get it.

Speak to a decent broker. It’s a complicated product with loads of different options. Make sure you understand which underwriting method the policy uses and the implications for you. Also check which hospitals are available in your area. Not all policies give the same level of cover.

nope and I never will

It will not cover you for most stuff you actually need ( A&E, GPs, eytc)

If your GP is useless change them. Private medicine is generally no better and often worse. Its main advantage is queue skipping for tests. Remeber GPs are private contractors - they are not NHS employees

I have physio on demand ( more or less) on the NHS here. I can contact a GP 24/7/365 on the NHS and I can get an appointment with my GP on any day I want including today

I recently had to use NHS home care palliative care stuff - none of which would be covered by private and all of which thru the NHS was exemplary

If your GP is useless change them

Not an option for all. In my town no GP surgery will take you onto their books if you already have a GP in the town.

Not an option for all. In my town no GP surgery will take you onto their books if you already have a GP in the town.

I am pretty sure that they cannot enforce that - if your GP is really useless ( not that you expect a service they cannot provide) then change them - there are channels to do so. Make a formal complaint about them - their status as private contractors makes it difficult for the NHS to ensure good care but the gps have a contract with the NHS that can be enforced

Yes, through work.

Again, physio has been the only thing I've used it for.

My mum has it and has used it for shoulder surgery. Knocked the wait time down from "good luck" to 6 weeks. It want severe enough to meet the criteria so the expectation was pain management and limited physio.

I'd probably not have it if it was not a work benefit. A course of physio probably costs £1000? I'd just pay that to go private if the NHS wasn't quick enough. For minor things that is always an option.

See what the costs are. It can be very expensive for individuals. It's normally a benefit through work as the collective risk is lower.

A course of physio probably costs £1000

my local private physio is £60 for the first visit - £40 after a course is usually around 4- 6 visitis ( unless you want the physio to do everything rather than working on it at home)

so the actual cost is way way less

my local private physio is £60 for the first visit – £40 after a course is usually around 4- 6 visitis

Mine is £45 an hour, rarely need more than 2-3 visits, so I've no idea where £1000 came from.

I've had and used private healthcare that I had through work 25 years ago. Yes, it was nice, but as TJ says it doesn't cover the kind of things you really need, and as a 52 year old with a variety of injury issues, and a disabled wife, I'm unlikely to be able to afford it anyway.

"Mostly" the benefits are the hotel services that private hospitals can offer are better than NHS services. So, nicer room, better food, faster treatment. There might be a wider choice of drugs for specific conditions. (more niche stuff that the NHS won't buy, or pay for.) But, bear in mind, There's no emergency care, if you've got any chronic issues, you may not get cover or if you do, the premiums are V high. And remember that children are prioritised in the NHS system so the wait times are lower anyway (so family cover may be less of an incentive to change)

I've seen excellent results in the private sector, and treatments that have been done speedily and with outstanding care and attention, but I've seen that in the NHS as well.

I think going private in certain situations can be sensible, dental, cosmetic treatments, audiology,  or dermatology for instance, but you can buy those "one off" without the need for plans.

Yes through work. When I broke lots of things, including my wrist in three places, the NHS answer at the first follow up at three weeks was to leave it to set at 60 degrees off the correct angle, wait three to six months then rebreak it and reset. The private option when I mentioned I had insurance was an operation the following day to insert a plate. The relief on the face of the fracture clinic consultant was palpable.

It may be a cheaper option to put the money aside each month for when you need it. If you’ve had any previous health issues then there will be exclusions. Other countries do healthcare properly (mandated insurance and no exclusions). COVID complications will be an exclusion. My company got that in early likely for fear of being swamped.

I also pay to see a consultant dermatologist once a year for a thorough skin cancer check. This is partly to keep my sole remaining sister’s mind at rest after our family’s history. It’s excluded from my insurance and the NHS doesn’t do preventative monitoring - it does crisis management regardless of history.

With the way waiting lists are at the moment I wouldn’t hesitate to get private cover. I’m about to use mine for an operation for a hearing/balance issue at the moment. On the NHS I wouldn’t even get a date for the initial appointment. Don’t forget most consultants work for the NHS & privately so in terms of the standard of treatment there’s no difference between the two. Private hospitals are nicer.

Obviously, you are still paying for the NHS through your taxes, so if you want to pay again for the benefits of private treatment, it's your money and your choice.

I get private through work. I am a big believer in the ideas and principles of the NHS but after so many years of underfunding and slicing off bits to the private sector it is a shadow of its former self. I agree with a lot of what TJ says but a few examples from the wife and I.

Original Ankle Break – NHS doing their thing*
NHS – Ambulance takes be from lying on the floor to A&E. I am given pain relieving driugs until a surgeon can be found to operate. Surgeon operates and saves my foot.
Private – Please call back on Monday with a referral

A very badly damaged shoulder ligament. - NHS Cost restraints prevent optimal choice
NHS – Cut the ligament, stitch up the damage and accept you will never raise your arm above your head again.
Private – Same consultant. Insert some guide 'pipe' and re-attach the two ends of the tendon followed by 12 weeks of carefully monitored physio starting as soon as possible after the surgery.

Ankle Fusion – NHS cannot offer choice of surgery dates
NHS – We can add the extra bolts when your turn comes up on the waiting list in between 3 – 9 months. You will eb on sticks for 12 weeks following but we can't say when so you cannot plan your year.
Private – When would you like the surgery? Early autumn in four months time so that you can enjoy summer before going back on the sticks, that's fine.
note from the insurance company

Original Ankle Break – NHS doing their thing (Part 2)
NHS - 8.5 hours waiting in A&E being given morphine to stop the screams while they try to find someone, anyone who can operate on me. Recovery complicated to a 14 hour process because of the amount of morphine I was given prior to the operation. Wife unable to find out what was happening or even where I was because I was basically in a store room for the recovery because it was taking too long to keep me in the normal post-op recovery room but no-one had noted this so I was 'missing' for about 6 hours in a store cupboard with just the nurse allocated to me aware of where I was.

nope and I never will

It will not cover you for most stuff you actually need ( A&E, GPs, eytc)

mine (via work) does cover me for gp and provided virtual appointments long before covid. They are useful for the worried well and for trivial stuff where the gp is a gatekeeper. My GP friends tell me this is what clogs their surgery up - so we should encourage those people to all get private healthcare so people who have real or urgent issues requiring face to face or hand on treatment don’t get delayed.

If your GP is useless change them. Private medicine is generally no better and often worse. Its main advantage is queue skipping for tests.

I think faster treatment for elective surgery like shoulders, knees, etc - which for sporty people is actually possibly important. NHS is very good at taking injured sports people and delaying treatment so long they never go back to being active.

Remeber GPs are private contractors – they are not NHS employees

I’m not sure what your point is - it’s one of the messes of the nhs in my opinion. In essence we all have private healthcare paid for by NhS? Or despite tge N in the name there’s nothing standardised about it - my limited experience of private is that there is a consistency of service.

I have physio on demand ( more or less) on the NHS here.

Do you? Is that some special arrangement? There’s was an 8 week wait for GP to physio referrals locally before covid (god knows what it is now) and I believe most people only get a couple of sessions - whereas privately you might get 5 or 6 (of course that may be excessive to maximise fees).

I can contact a GP 24/7/365 on the NHS

no you can’t. You can call a call centre and IF you meet their assessment criteria you will get to speak to or see a GP. On my private scheme you can book to see a GP online usually within 24hr. There’s no screening. That is probably not a good use of resource - but if you want that service it exists at a cost.

and I can get an appointment with my GP on any day I want including today

You must be the only person in the U.K. who is confident of that. I’m confident I can get one this week, and that if I actually needed one today I could get one today but I don’t believe if I call my gp today about a sore hand I’ll be likely to get an appointment today. I know some practices do operate a turn up and wait policy - for people in work with minor ailments (or who perhaps just need a repeat prescription renewed that requires a quick face to face) that’s a major pain in the arse.

I recently had to use NHS home care palliative care stuff – none of which would be covered by private and all of which thru the NHS was exemplary

I’m in the fortunate position not to have needed this either on nhs or privately. However my private policy does have some provisions in it - I’ve not studied them in depth as of course each case will be different and with all insurers they nuance comes when you make a claim. However, if all the worried well and hobbling footballers use their private policy does it not free up resource for those who don’t have time to wait?

I have physio on demand ( more or less) on the NHS here. I can contact a GP 24/7/365 on the NHS and I can get an appointment with my GP on any day I want including today

Scottish NHS must be working better than English NHS then.

If I want to see an NHS physio I need a referral through the doctor. To get a referral through my GP I need to either play the 8am call queue game or book 2 weeks in advance. Once I have said referral (which they don’t seem overly keen on giving for a running injury that is not a long term issue) I need to wait another month to get an appointment, likely with a physio who doesn’t specialise in the work I need.

So yeah, like many above, I had it through work and use it for physio as I can see who I want at short notice.

That’s not to criticise the NHS (well, the 8am call game is always an annoyance…), most of the stuff I go to the physio for would fix itself in 3 months, I just want it fixed sooner and so don’t mind paying/using the company insurance for it.

The NHS is virtually non existent

You see a lot of shite posted on STW but this really does take the biscuit!!

I recently had to use NHS home care palliative care stuff – none of which would be covered by private

Sorry TJ, but you're incorrect. Many years ago cancer cover was excluded however it is now offered as an optional cover with home nursing and palliative care included

If your GP is useless change them

sounds good in theory, in some rural areas that's simply not a realistic option though. Not everyone lives in a capital city with all the benefits that brings after all

NHS – Cut the ligament, stitch up the damage and accept you will never raise your arm above your head again.

You see this sort of "fix over function and form" a lot in the NHS. the NHS audiology will allow you to hear -  maybe if you suffer from the correct sort of deafness, and don't mind having a large aid. Spectacles, will allow you to see, aren't comfortable or limited choice, dentures that will allow you to talk or eat, but don't look anything like actual teeth...All these sorts of things are routinely better bought privately.

I would say check out Benenden as a "plug the gaps" option, as actual private insurance is £££ (hence why people tend either to get it through work, or self-fund).

Pays for diagnostic appt with a consultant (which is often the slow bit in the NHS) and may also then offer you an op if the NHS wait is long & you're in distress.

Being "young retired" I am going to go for Benenden + NHS + self-fund when I lose coverage from the OH's health insurance upon their retirement.

NHS is very good at taking injured sports people and delaying treatment so long they never go back to being active.

Not my experience - of 4 different traumatic injuries to 3 different people

no you can’t

Actually yes I can - thats how it works. Again I have used this service a few times including two out of hours visits

You must be the only person in the U.K. who is confident of that.

Nope - every patient in the UK has that right for urgent treatment and every patient on my GPs list gets this automatically - they simply have a[ppointments available on the day - a well organised GP service

However my private policy does have some provisions in it

That will be next to useless

does your private provision include a electric profiling bed delivered within 24 hours? daily nurse visits to change the pump, express entry to the hospice without going thru the system, support from experienced palliative care nurses, visits from experience palliative care care assistances that last an hour for 2 CAs that is arranged at my convenience?

if all the worried well and hobbling footballers use their private policy does it not free up resource for those who don’t have time to wait?

NOpe - its takes resources from the poor to give to the rich - anbd also the private healthcare comanies do not train or pay for the trained staff they take

Private medicine makes the average persons healthcare worse by removing resources from the system and wasting them on the worried well and minor ailments there is a finite pool of staff

Do you? Is that some special arrangement?

Only in that thats a clinic in NHS lothian thats self refferal

I’m not sure what your point is

That the GPs being private contractors are very variable in
the service they provide. Mine does far more than the basic NHS contract makes them do - which is why they are good GPs

Boarding BOb - there is no way on earth that any private cover would provide the level of expertise and palliative care that was provided on the NHS. for a start the experience palliative care staff are not available to the private companies nor do they have access to the resources. Many of the services are simply not available privatly.

I too have private healthcare through work. I've used it twice, once for surgery to remove a ganglion cyst on my write middle finger that stopped me typing, once for my wife to have her hip replaced. In both cases it was purely for queue jumping, NHS would not provide a time for the cyst and hip was a 3 year wait (having been in the system for 3 years already with treatments ranging from painkillers to acupuncture). My wife could hardly walk at that point.

I used the NHS when I broke my ankle 30 years ago. X-rays weren't clear, I was told I'd not broken it and to exercise it. It wasn't getting better after 3 months but the GP would not refer me. I ended up paying for another x-ray privately and physio. By that time, my ankle was a bit screwed up. The physio took me from unable to weight bear to almost normal and I gave up running for cycling to avoid impacts.

In an ideal world, the NHS would be funded sufficiently to avoid the need. Unfortunately it's not.

I'm lucky that I work for a large company to the healthcare is cheaper than it would be for me to buy it individually, the premium is the same regardless of age and I'm old.

 there is no way on earth that any private cover would provide the level of expertise and palliative care that was provided on the NHS

That sort of care is routinely available privately. Part of the company I worked for had a complex palliative service. Mostly paid for by insurance The doctors and nurses were both expert and caring.

nickc - try listening to what I say - it is simply not possible for a private company to give the level of palliative care that I received. cannot be done as they do not have access to the services needed - and I very much doubt they have staff with anything like the level of expertise

they might tell you they have but its simply not possible for them to do so

the other thing about private hospitals is if something goes wrong you are in a far worse position than you would be in an NHS hospital

The NHS is shit, try asking the 5 million people who are waiting for operations what they think.

NOpe – its takes resources from the poor to give to the rich – anbd also the private healthcare comanies do not train or pay for the trained staff they take

Private medicine makes the average persons healthcare worse by removing resources from the system and wasting them on the worried well and minor ailments there is a finite pool of staff

It’s funny that with all the resources taken away from it the NHS is still, according to you, functioning almost perfectly.

No - the NHS has real issues caused by shortage of resources and its provision varies by locality - I live in an area with very good provision - but private healthcare makes this worse not better

and I loathe with every fibre of my being the way that private healthcare lies and misleads and deliberately frightens people into paying for worse services with worse outcomes

Private healthcare palliative care simply cannot be as good - they do not have access to the expertise and resources. None of the palliative care specialists we used do any private work and that expertise is only found in the NHS.

 it is simply not possible for a private company to give the level of palliative care that I received. cannot be done as they do not have access to the services needed – and I very much doubt they have staff with anything like the level of expertise

And I'm telling you that it is perfectly possible. We had contracts with Insurance companies to provide just that sort of (often) end of life, and 365 care that you describe. Just because you're not personally aware of something, doesn't mean it can't (or doesn't) exist, the NHS aren't the sole employer of medical staff, nor are they the sine qua non when it comes to expertise in fact I'd say that in certain areas, they are miles behind current technology. Further, the idea that a clinician is solely in the private sector doesn't necessarily mean that the NHS suffers because of it, that's a daft argument Not all doctors and nurses are publicly trained

and I loathe with every fibre of my being

OK, I'm done here, same as religion, you don't/won't/can't see any alternative to your convictions. No point discussing it with you.

Not all doctors and nurses are publicly trained

Really - please describe the training programme they follw then because as far as I am aware there is only one pathway - via the NHS

And I’m telling you that it is perfectly possible

And I am telling you that you do not understand palliative care and its simply impossible for a private company to provide the level of expertise and service

do they have palliative care consultants available 24/7/365?

Let me give you one small example from my recent experience:

Julie was being cared for by me at home. Her pain control was slipping. I had given here oral doses but due to systemic shutdown they were not being absorbed properly and suddenly hit her leading her to be overloaded with analgesia. the district nurse prescribing specialist came to increase the sub cutaneous pump dosage. the nurse was concerned ( rightly) because Julie was over sedated.

the district nurse phoned the palliative care consultant on call to get advice - this was to a highly experience pallitave care specialist consultant who had been over seeing Julies care. after discussions a new pain relief scheme was set up using a GP to prescribe

This happened on a sunday afternoon. Now tell me that a private palliative care would have access to that expertise? they do not. simply not available to them

Edit - the issue here is Nickc that you do not understand what good palliative care provision is and what the limitations of private healthcare are
Name me an experienced palliative care consultant specialising in cancer of unknown primary that works in the private sector and is available for advice out of hours

Nickc please do tell me how nurses and doctors get trained outside of the NHS?

I guess that one thing we can all agree on is that private health insurers are not charities. They exist to make money (and seem to make a fair bit). That means that, on average, they have to take more money off you than they pay out. Of course some people will gain and some will lose, but on the whole active cyclists are probably going to be more likely to be losers than winners.

My general rule with insurance is to only insure something I couldn't afford to replace or live without (e.g. the house). So, I wouldn't be interested in paying insurance premiums to cover the cost of physio, for example, as I can just pay for that. I would be interested in insurance for those really massive bills, but that stuff is pretty much always excluded from the policy anyway.

One thing that does bug me with private providers is the way they take the money then throw any problems back to the NHS. I know somebody who paid for a private hip replacement as the NHS wait was too long. Fair enough. I can see why they did that. But when there were complications from the operation they were told to go back to their GP. If the private provider is going to take the money for doing the operation then they should absorb all of the risk, which includes sorting out the issues afterwards, not just throwing them back to the NHS. But that's getting OT

Now tell me that a private palliative care would have access to that expertise? they do not. simply not available to them

They do. I know this for a fact because it's what I've done for a living for the past 20 years. I know the resources that are available. I know the doctors, nurses and other specialists that work for us. I know the companies and advisors we use. I know the standard of care inside our facilities. I know the level of cover we provide. Etc.

I'm fully aware you were a nurse and also aware of your recent loss, but by your own admission you've never used private care and never will, so you really can't be an expert on it.

I have it through work but strictly speaking never used it because the NHS has been so good.
Two periods of cancer and the NHS really stepped up to the plate both times - basically things were organised within days.
I remember commenting to the consultant once how quick things were being processed and he replied "I'm going to walk you next door and get an xray done now whereas if you went private we would have to get approval first".
So all I've ever done is claim the cash alternative.

I have worked in private care, I have friends who have and I both Julie and my mother have used private healthcare

roverpig - name me the consultant palliative care specialist with decades of expertise in cancer of unknown primary you use?

Tell me what would have happened in the above scenario. where would that level of expertise come from?

I still want Nickc to describe the Non nhs training pathway for nurses, doctors and paramedics.

The NHS is shit, try asking the 5 million people who are waiting for operations what they think.

If there was no NHS, all those people would have no choice but to pay for their treatment, like the good old USofA.

The NHS is under unprecedented pressure, and it was deteriorating prior to Covid. That wasn't the fault of the NHS. Look higher - or lower, to the people who voted them in.

TJ goes over the top with his love of the NHS - it will be better in a Scottish city than rural England, but to call the NHS shit is insulting and ignorant.

And here in my corner of semi-rural England we've been able to self refer for NHS physio and mental health services for years, had no idea some places still required a GP referral.

I see it the same as any other insurance. Glad you had it when you use it, seems like a waste of money when you don't use it.

I have had private healthcare via work for last 25 years. Had 3 operations (all pretty much next day) rather than wait weeks/months by same consultant who would have performed the operation in NHS.

So as Nickc said "“Mostly” the benefits are the hotel services that private hospitals can offer are better than NHS services. So, nicer room, better food, faster treatment. " this is my experience with 3 operations and my wife's experience with 3 operations.
Looking at it from purely cost is not really relevant as each operation costs say £5,000 but you haven't gained money, you have just gained speed of treatment.

TJ goes over the top with his love of the NHS

perhaps I do but I believe its more because of my inside knowledge of private healthcare I am more aware of its limitations. for example a private hospital will not have the same medical cover at night and will not have access to the same resources if an issue arises - you get shipped off to the NHS when the situation gets serious. Ask your spire hospital what their "major heamorrahge protocol" is. ask them who is on the nightime crash team.

I reckon julies last month cost the NHS in the region of £20 000. I am certain no private provision could have matched it for expertise, easy of delivery and amount of staff time we took up

roverpig – name me the consultant palliative care specialist with decades of expertise in cancer of unknown primary you use?

Tell me what would have happened in the above scenario. where would that level of expertise come from?

I still want Nickc to describe the Non nhs training pathway for nurses, doctors and paramedics.

I used to work for a private medical insurance company assessing claims. Although it was 30 years ago.

At the time and I doubt it's different now. Having private medical cover as an individual and through work was very different. If it was through your company which was large and had many hundreds or thousands of people. The insurance company would cover things which they wouldn't cover if you were an individual. Or a smaller company. Basically the more the premium was worth to the company the better cover you got. Especially with things which could be argued as pre existing.

The first thing I did when assessing a claim was to get the policy document issued at the time the policy was taken out. Then find a way not to pay it.

@tjagain I think you are getting me confused with someone else 🙂

Sorry roverpig =- that question should have been to boardingbob!

so boardingbob =- please name me the consultant in palliative care specialist with decades of experience in cancer of unknown primary you use? I take it you have a choice of several so they provide 24/7/365 cover?

Or is it as I believe that no private company will have the level of expertise that we needed?

TJ - I can't believe I'm going to waste my time arguing this with you, because I know you will be beligerinent in your belief that your experience is 100% the same as everyone else's but you've got some real nonsense in here which actually doesn't help anyone:

Not my experience – of 4 different traumatic injuries to 3 different people

Yes I'm sure if there is proper trauma that NHS physio does a good job of getting sports people back in action. However, where its just a sporting injury that doesn't require any other medical intervention they are not so good. Ask any adult footballer who needed cruciate ligament surgery and didn't have private cover how long they waited, you'll not find it hard to find people who actually lost enough fitness waiting for treatment for sports injuries rather than trauma that they didn't return to the same level of sport, or sport at all. That may be counterproductive as I can certainly point to a couple who have gone from fit n healthy to couch potato as a result of musculoskeletal issues. Knees, shoulders, elbows, ankles/feet - all classic relatively low priority matters for the NHS if the bones are not broken etc; we'd all pay to get a wheel fixed if it was stopping us riding so why not our body? Its difficult to see how injury that stops you doing a sport, but isn't getting in the way of basic life is ever going to be an NHS priority. No doubt you'll point to examples where it was - but I've personal experience that it certainly isn't universal. As you've acknowledged GP services are variable (and actually private without having the customer service mentality of the private sector).

Only in that thats a clinic in NHS lothian thats self refferal

First google hit for "NHS Lothian physio self referral":
https://services.nhslothian.scot/ecps/Pages/SelfReferral.aspx
Note it says: "If you require Physiotherapy Treatment for a muscle, bone or joint problem please speak to your GP."

Actually yes I can – thats how it works. Again I have used this service a few times including two out of hours visits

No you either aren't understanding or are being deliberately obtuse. You didn't get to choose to meet a GP 24/7 - you met the clinical criteria for seeing a GP with that urgency. When people say their private health gets them quick and easy access to a GP - they mean - when THEY want it / decide it's necessary not when the triage system prioritises them. That's the luxury they are paying for (although I believe you can "buy" these services ad-hoc rather than needing a policy as such).

NOpe – its takes resources from the poor to give to the rich – anbd also the private healthcare comanies do not train or pay for the trained staff they take

its probably not that helpful to treat everyone with private healthcare as "rich" - that's a myth. Certainly they probably aren't poor - but lots of people with not very much get private healthcare through employers (many will earn less than a nurse). My only experience of private health is provision in separate buildings using separate facilities from the NHS. Its not clear to me that this is taking resource from the poor. I'm sure private providers do train staff, although you are probably right they don't do the initial professional training. But then anyone who trained as a teacher, police officer or firefighter should never be permitted to leave their public service professions and use those skills in private sector either? Might be particularly galling for those who have paid fees for university to be told that the NHS paid for their training - in plenty of places NHS has made good use of its trainees as cheap labour to keep costs down. Or does the taxation on the salaries, the fees (subject to VAT) and the insurance premium (subject to IPT) along with the rates and corporation tax all go back into the UK Plc funds which feed universities and teaching hospitals for their educational role?

Private medicine makes the average persons healthcare worse by removing resources from the system and wasting them on the worried well and minor ailments there is a finite pool of staff

Or some people would argue it (a) helps keep leading consultants and surgeons in the UK where they can earn more and still do stuff to "help out the NHS"; (b) provides some degree of salary competition for the NHS and thus stops the government monopoly on health staff from driving down wages; (c) means that people who would otherwise have left the working conditions of the NHS to do something totally different, stay in healthcare and reduce the burden from the worried and minor ailments people who would otherwise still be a PITA to the NHS.

try listening to what I say – it is simply not possible for a private company to give the level of palliative care that I received. cannot be done as they do not have access to the services needed – and I very much doubt they have staff with anything like the level of expertise

I can't say one way or the other. But its not like if you go private you are now excluded from using NHS services so its a bit of a non-argument that you would never go private because they don't offer palliative care (or it may be inferior). Its like saying, "I'd never ride a bike because if I need to move a big box I'd be better with a car".

and I loathe with every fibre of my being the way that private healthcare lies and misleads and deliberately frightens people into paying for worse services with worse outcomes

I wonder what the split is between people who individually pay for treatment*, those who take out a policy themselves and those who get a policy via employment? I don't know anyone in the UK who's been "frightened" about not having private healthcare? I also don't see how you can "pay for worse services" when its a "top-up" arrangement on the NHS not a replacement. If the service is worse - people would just default to the NHS. However, despite the NHS being amazing at many things there are aspects of private health they could learn from: - customer care, communication, making people feel less like a number or a burden, some basic comforts etc.

* and I wonder what proportion of those are getting cosmetic or similar treatment that would never be provided by an insurer (or indeed the NHS)?

Very polarised views on this. I love the NHs, it has saved my life and finally diagnosed my mum with MN.

There is no way private care would have spotted the issue that had me in hospital for 4 weeks and they failed to diagnosis my mum's MNfor 2 years (to be fair it took the NHS over another year).

However I cannot get a GPs appointment on the day, pre covid . Used to be about 2 weeks. Actually with covid things are better , a doc is on the phone doing consultantations. Still takes a day or so to get one.

Physio on the NHS, just not possible in a reasonable time frame here.

At home care for MN,non existent. Couple of visits initialy to see your home set up and a few bits and pieces sent across. Now once a month visit from the district MN nurse.

Every region is different, so others experience will vary. I am down in the money sucking south,so you thought it might be good to keep the votes coming in.

The blame falls on the government, it is an amazing institution and looks after so many. However it underfunded and under resourced. so every is done to keep the maximum number of people healthy.

I agree to some extent that a dual private/state system ups the state cost. However it is needed now to plug some of the gaps.

Poly - privatre healthcare does not do the training - they cannot - they do not have the range of experience required - that the 4 years it takes to become a nurse or the 7 years it takes to become a doctor. thats a fact.

Private healthcare is worse - when it goes wrong you have to be rushed off to the NHS for the emergency care and thus that delay while you are moved causes worse outcomes. Also less overnight cover so again worse outcomes if something gores wrong

As for your GP point - yes I can get a GP if appropriate sure with private you can get a unneeded GP consultation - taking expertise out of the system for unneeded consultations

As private healthcare is less efficient than the NHS taking those staff out of the NHS reduces the total staff time available

this is why some countries have no private provision allowed

I don’t know anyone in the UK who’s been “frightened” about not having private healthcare?

Look at the adverts for private healthcare - a fair few play on fears of a poor NHS to get people to pay for private health insurance that actually does not cover whats needed and has worse clinical outcomes

– in plenty of places NHS has made good use of its trainees as cheap labour to keep costs down

not for decades has this happened. Not since nursing went to university based training.

I can’t say one way or the other. But its not like if you go private you are now excluded from using NHS services so its a bit of a non-argumen

Point missed - if you want a part and part provision then you do not get the seamless and hassle free extension of services.

one example from my recent experience - we had a direct line into the local hospice if needed. No extra referral needed ( because all done thru the NHS) - just one phone call and Julie would have gone directly from home to hospice. thats the sort of seamless provision private cannot provide

I have it through work and for physio and elective surgery it’s been great. Then I was diagnosed with MS and guess what, no cover for chronic conditions like that. Just as well the NHS has me covered on that front.

I’m not saying don’t get extra cover if you can afford it just that you need to be aware of limits on cover.

Its very telling that neither boardingbob or nickc are able to answer those questions I set them

please name me the consultant in palliative care specialist with decades of experience in cancer of unknown primary you use?

What would be the point Jeremy? Your miopic belligerence will never allow you to change your mind. Loads of us on here pointing out that our actual experience trumps your sample of one. I don't know why we ever bother responding to you.

If it makes you feel better, you're right, we're all wrong.

So you do not have multiple palliative care consultants available?

If you could refute my point you would. the fact you are unable to shows the value in your baseless assertions

Its a simple fact - because of the limitations of private healthcare they cannot provide the same levels of care as they do not have the expertise available and your refusal to reply is very telling.

If it makes you feel better, you’re right, we’re all wrong.

I know you are wrong. 🙂

Away and enjoy your retirement man

@tjagain

"..Private healthcare is worse – when it goes wrong you have to be rushed off to the NHS for the emergency care and thus that delay while you are moved causes worse outcomes..."

Sorry. Private healthcare is better as long as things go smoothly.

I spent the best part of a decade trying to get my debilitating ankle injuries treated sucessfully on the NHS - including three years trying to get a proper diagnosis and then a poor solution after a long wait which failed. During this time I lost all fitness, put on five stone and developed secondary conditions due to the mechanical problems with my body that also came to need surgery.

After so long on this I paid my own hard earned for a private consultant and had operations (different solution) that fixed the issues (at my own expense) in a week.

A WEEK.

Now I'm five stone lighter, ride, walk (I live in North Wales now - unthinkable previously) and can even run a bit.

I'll have lifelong pain caused by the unacceptable delays trying to get treated properly on the NHS but that's by the by.

Whilst I agree the NHS is hugely valueable and important we have to accept certain realities of the world we live in. My reality is that ideology has NO space in healthcare - if you can get treated faster and better elsewhere then it's a no brainer.

Best ten grand I ever spent.

Sorry. Private healthcare is better as long as things go smoothly.

clinical outcomes are similar until it goes wrong - then they are much worse.

Checvy chase - yes for the individual private can be great - its a shame its to the detriment of those who cannot go private. this is why I pursuaded my mother to get her hips done privately

the problem is that private healthcare takes expertise away from the NHS - so good for the individual for routine ops when there is no problems but to the detriment of the country as a whole

@tjagain - I don't give a monkeys. You're cherry picking to reinforce your belief.

You said, and I quote "private healthcare is worse".

You weren't making that statement justified by limited cirumstances - you were applying it in a blanket fashion.

You were and are wrong. Like most religious people. Look at my lived example and tell me how a decade of repeated abject failure by the NHS is better than paying privately for a timely, better, outcome.

There are strengths and weaknesses to both systems and if you take your religious objections to private being a parasite to the NHS aside - which, practically, most people who are ill do - then, if you are able, you should choose whichever is most effective for you.

Rightly or wrongly we don't live in a socialist utopia. It's not going to change in my lifetime whether I want it to or not - so I'm VERY grateful for the existence of competent healthcare that I can rock up to with my cash and get treated fantastically and quickly.

I feel for those unable to afford it. But I feel no guilt at looking after myself. And nor should I.

you do not have multiple palliative care consultants available

Clearly not

https://finder.hcahealthcare.co.uk/hca/search/specialists?searchString=Oncology&specialties []=710&practice=london_bridge_hospital

https://www.hcahealthcare.co.uk/our-services/supportive-services/palliative-care

https://www.cromwellhospital.com/services-specialties/oncology/

https://www.bupa.co.uk/care-services/what-type-of-care-do-i-need/palliative-care

https://www.spirehealthcare.com/consultants/profiles/?filterConsultantType=consultant&filterTreatmentSpeciality=Oncology&filterLocation=Edinburgh&filterName=&filterByBookable=false

https://www.spirehealthcare.com/spire-edinburgh-hospitals-murrayfield-and-shawfair-park/treatments/oncology-day-chemotherapy-centre/meet-the-team/

Your next post about paritism of the NHS by private. Don't really disagree.

But I don't care *enough to not use private*.

If I'm in pain, debilitating pain, and I can pay to fix it - or live in pain whilst the NHS fails to treat it - I'm going to pay.

You can be a martyr if you want to. It's bloody unpleasant - and frankly there are issues that I would put first over this. It's not the hill I will die on.

chevy - I was basically agreeing with you

Boardingbob - you priove my point. Not a single palliative care specialist in that list - oncologists are not the same
No details on the services available for palliative care
the Cromwell ho[pital link - again no palliative care specialists
Bupa link - no home care
spire link - again no palliative care specialists

Oh - and on the bupa care homes doing palliative care - I have worked in two different one - the palliative care was rubbish. really poor to the point i was going to report one but it was taken over a few weeks later

So boardinbgbob - I ask you again. who are the palliative care consultants available 24/7/365 you use?

Also the advanced nurse practitioner nurse prescribers palliative care specialists

If you're going down to the "name them" part of the argument it's going too far.

I happen to agree that the NHS have the capability to do the most advanced forms of palliative care. However, not everyone *needs* that and the private sector does an admirable job in those cases.

I have worked a lot in palliative care ( decades) and that expertise is needed - our case was relatively simple - ( apart from they had to deal with me poor folk 🙂 ) but still the high level expertise was essential in getting a good standard of care as was the seamless service

Palliative care is a difficult speciality. Generalists cannot do it as well because they do not have the expertise.

an oncologist is NOT a palliative care specialist

chevy - the name then was a challenge I threw at him because I know he does not have the palliative care specialists available 24/7/365 and hoped he would admit that

Point missed – if you want a part and part provision then you do not get the seamless and hassle free extension of services.

there's no fundamental reason it should be hassle though. I suspect that much will come down to the policy and people involved. My limited experience so far is that in other regards getting stuff organised privately is usually much simpler than via NHS. It may be that NHS are much slicker with end of life care than other stuff.

one example from my recent experience – we had a direct line into the local hospice if needed. No extra referral needed ( because all done thru the NHS) – just one phone call and Julie would have gone directly from home to hospice. thats the sort of seamless provision private cannot provide

I don't know if private can or can't provide that - it seems a little odd that they wouldn't be able to to be honest - my provider has a specific "Cancer Patients Helpline" to get advice and help arrange treatments. However, I dusted off my policy (which I do believe is one of the better ones, and even within this insurer not everyone gets these benefits).

Here's what they cover:
£5000 cash on diagnosis of cancer "to alleviate financial worries"
They cover all the medical, surgical stuff you would expect (including stem cells, experimental treatments backed by doctors); plus wigs, prosthesis etc; in addition they will fund up to £100K of drugs which are not supported by NHS*.
If you get treated in an NHS hospital rather than the private one you get £100/day, the same if on IV at home (paid to the patient - that money may make a big difference, its not really healthcare insurance, more critical illness cover).
10 years of post-treatment monitoring.
End of life care in a hospital when medically necessary.
If you go to a hospice they donate £100/day to the hospice.
If you get Macmillan/Marie Curie nurses (or similar) at home they donate £50/day to the charity.

So their palliative care isn't necessarily any different to NHS, but they are providing a feel-good factor (donation). However, this is a policy that's generally only available via employers and of course that skews the risk profile substantially.

However, there is a feature of most policies - if you don't claim through them and just go via NHS they'll pay YOU for each day of treatment etc; that may make you feel better about not stealing resources from the poor whilst still benefiting if your employer provides the policy.

*the small print says they have to be shown to be effective - so I suspect that not often does the NHS not support drugs that they will.

Here you go TJ, example of a palliative care consultant at HCA.

https://finder.hcahealthcare.co.uk/hca/specialist/dr_shaheen_khan

Hopefully this ends your relentless questions

Would private medical insurance cover a person for bashing their head against a brick wall. (Asking for a friend).

so boading bob - you found one palliative care consultant - ( as did I when re searching your list). One. to provide 24/7/365 cover for the whole country,. Whereas I had 4 in one hospital covering a part of Edinburgh so actually did get that 24/7/365 cover

so my point is proven. Boarding bobs private cover cannot supply the expertise that the NHS do in palliative care

Poly
"I don’t know if private can or can’t provide that"
Whereas I know they cannot - its only available as a service if the local NHS palliative care consultant OKs it - and as the private provider does not have that expertise if you were private and having home care then the home care fails and you need hospice care you would have to go thru the assessment for the hospice first which would take 24 hours at a minimum

also can you get expert home care including syringe driver refills and so on from your private cover?

palliative care is one of the tings the NHS d0oes so much better than private

About cancer drugs -
"Abiraterone is routinely available on the NHS in Scotland as a first treatment for advanced prostate cancer" says Prostate Cancer UK (...but not England /Wales)

- I know a chap who is in England but managed to get Abiraterone (as a 1st line treatment) through his private insurance, and he credits that partly for why he's still here, 4 years on from the discovery of prostate cancer mets in his bones.

So it is an issue sometimes. I'd agree with you that it's probably rare though.

I'm a big defender of the MS, but my stepdaughter (22) found a lump on her breast on January, went to her GP in the Easter holidays, who described it as "worrying", and referred her. But when she chased her GP today on a timescale for further diagnosis was told she wouldn't get anything until next summer.

15 months. For a mamogram. For a 22 year old who has a large, painful and growing lump on her breast. Utterly ridiculous. So obviously we are going private. I can't believe that we will end up

paying for worse services with worse outcomes

in this instance.

boriselbrus

Thats absurd. either there is a detail missed here, the GP is incompetent or fishing for private work or your local NHS is in a worse state than most

Julie needed an urgent scan - 2 weeks wait ( which we felt was too long so had one done privately)

Thats an issue to make a huge fuss about. something badly wrong there

So Nickc never came back to try to defend his nonsense that the private sector trains its staff - they do not. all done by the state and boarding bobs assertion that the private sector can provide the same expertise and level of palliative care is also shown to be bobbins

ON the outcomes - obviously if you get something done privately quicker then its better for the individual - but thats not what his means. to compare outcomes you look at a similar group of people having the same treatment NHS or private and see which one does better - thats where the private system falls down because IF something goes wrong then you are much better off in the NHS - thats why statistically outcomes are better in the NHS

I’ve worked in the NHS for 15 yrs, my wife is a Surgeon in the NHS.

If we had access to private healthcare through work we would jump at the opportunity. Predominately for the speed of access for diagnosis and fast treatment

Eg my hip is on the way out. Going through the NHS I first have to get through the GP, then through physio services, then a period of months of see how you get on, then back to GP, then wait for a consultant appointment, then wait for a scan. That process can take over a year

Going through the private route that could all be done within 2 weeks

No the private sector doesn’t not train its own staff, that would be impossible.

Not all private consultants are good, do your homework and find out.

Private health does have limitations If you get unwell whilst being operated on or in their care you will be transferred to an NHS hospital

Whether you should take out private healthcare in many ways depends on where you live and how good your local NHS is. There is no doubting thought that where ever you live, private will give you answers quicker

TJ - don’t be so polarised with your views. I have seen the outcomes of people having really poor palliative care in the community, purely because the NHS didn’t have the staff to do it properly, a quick Google brings up many private companies offering palliative care. If I could offer that to relative/friend then I certainly would.

Funkydunc - I really accept most of that and have used private diagnostics and persuaded my mother to have her hips done privately because of delays

What happened tho was boarding bob claimed that he could through his private insurance provide the same level of expertise as the NHS - obvious nonsense as they do not have that expertise available in the private sector nor can the private sector provide the seamless transitions between different areas ( hospital / home / hospice)

I was lucky in that being a nurse I did not need social service carers - thats where the state system falls down badly - social services carers are crap by and large because of the godawful constraints they work under and the problems of recruitment and retention - but guess what - social services care is a privatised service. I did get very good carers from the hospice at home service for the last 3 days - 2 carers for an hour ( and could have had more). far more than available thru the social services and of course an option that would have been far harder to arrange if at all possible if you were in the private system. I took me one phone call to get those carers to come it.

the NHS has not provided home care for decades - its all via social services now ( not treatments - thats obviously still the district nurses but the washing dressing toileting stuff) and since the privitisation its a crap service from social services

I just object strongly when people who have no proper understanding claim private healthcare does things that I know they cannot. Its usually a combination of ideology and ignorance. I was particularly amused buy the Bupa link to palliative care in their care homes - I have worked there and know how poor it is. Staff ratios are half the NHS units and 1/3 the hospice.

So Nickc never came back to try to defend his nonsense that the private sector trains its staff –

See my answer on page one.

Can't bear to admit you are wrong?

the private sector does not train staff. You claimed they did.