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Would appreciate any help in organising my thoughts on this.
Daughter (year 10/14 years old) was leaving the toilets a couple of days ago in school, the door closed onto her fingers and they started to swell a few minutes later. She went to the school's first aid room, and the staff there taped her fingers up (ring and index on right hand) and asked for her to be collected before the end of the school day.
She is pretty resilient from years of playing football, martial arts and other sports so we left the tape on, excused her from athletics training that night and carried on as normal.
Yesterday, the pain didn't subside throughout the day, so after school my wife took her to the children's ED, where X-Rays confirmed the two fingers and a knuckle (!) were broken.
As it happens I am in contact with the school as she is being bullied by four girls in her year. This is being managed by us and the school, but it means I have a good relationship with the Head of Form, Head of Year, the Pastoral Officer and the Deputy Head in charge of welfare. They have been really good and supportive.
I pressed her on what happened in the toilet, and it turns out that as she was leaving the toilet - with her hand on the edge of the wall where the door would close - the door shut a lot quicker, and with a lot more force than normal. The only people in the toilet at the time were the four girls that are bullying her.
I'm waiting for a phone call from the school, but from a premises point of view - could it be possible that an internal door could close with enough force to break bones? If so, should the school be aware of this through risk assessments etc? There is no signage on any of the doors to suggest this, and she has managed to use the door hundreds of times since year 7 without incident.
I am trying to be balanced, and don't want to automatically assume that the door was 'shoved' or helped on it's way as my daughter left by one of the girls. If it was, I am sure they would have not intended to do actually cause physical harm.
Any thoughts on the kind of questions I can ask the school? If the doors can do this, then there are lots of other smaller children that could be injured in a similar way.
Daughter is gutted as she has been told she cannot play football or do any other sports for a few weeks...and she won't be able to join in with the bowling night that the football team have arranged for Christmas!
Sorry for the rambling post.
I have seen multiple doors in hospitals with the ability to do this. Slam shut and injure folk. Usually poorly adjusted door closers but a fire door is heavy and needs a strong spring to close it
It's an accident and should be investigated as such. Part of that investigation should be how violently the door self closes. If not much then suspicion should fall on the others but that needs some corroboration from your daughter.
That said fingers in doors is painful at the best of times.
Ask to see the accident investigation pronto. In my experience the people managing schools fall way short of management in other sectors when it comes to things like this.
Door closers can have enough force to cause injuries, but they are adjustable so should be adjusted so they don't. If they do close with force, the door will slam and eventually damage the door frame, so the caretaker/facilities management have incentives to fix the problem. Generally it takes a couple of minutes with a screwdriver.
Can she or a friend go and check the door? If it doesn't slam shut by itself, then it was slammed by someone else...
Thanks all,
Ask to see the accident investigation pronto.
Will do, thanks.
TJ, I know some doors in offices etc can be heavy, I was perhaps surprised that this would be the case in school.
Can she or a friend go and check the door?
The Pastoral Officer is checking the door now, hopefully that will give us an idea of what is going on, and if it is heavy enough to do damage they can look at signage etc (or at least speak to the kids to warn them).
While this does need a look into, particularly if the door closer can be improved to avoid in future, I think you are stretching things to suggest others malevolent involvement unless your daughter has told you this. It does seem the school have responded positively.
It also needs putting into perspective - what would your reaction be if your daughters knuckles were broken by a hockey ball during a match? I understand that there are different reasons for the 'risk benefit balance' judgement, but broken fingers according to HSE are not a significant injury. The key thing though is if the door is badly adjusted, it could be better adjusted to prevent future issues.
Nowhere is completely safe, and we should not have an expectation of total safety ever. This though is related to what peoples own personal judgement, emotions and expectations are.
While this does need a look into, particularly if the door closer can be improved to avoid in future, I think you are stretching things to suggest others malevolent involvement unless your daughter has told you this. It does seem the school have responded positively.
It also needs putting into perspective – what would your reaction be if your daughters knuckles were broken by a hockey ball during a match? I understand that there are different reasons for the ‘risk benefit balance’ judgement, but broken fingers according to HSE are not a significant injury. The key thing though is if the door is badly adjusted, it could be better adjusted to prevent future issues.
Nowhere is completely safe, and we should not have an expectation of total safety ever. This though is related to what peoples own personal judgement, emotions and expectations are.
Cheers Matt, I'm genuinely trying to remain open minded and balanced and I guess I am only considering a more sinister explanation as a result of the last few months...but I accept that the most likely scenario is a poorly set up door.
I really do appreciate all the input, it's good to have this place to bounce off.
Everything that Matt said.
It may not be nice but shit happens (some door closers also resist being slammed).
There may be a more sinister explanation however it would be extremely difficult/impossible to prove, especially if your daughter didn't see it for certain. At the same time with kids, it's much more likely to be a stupid thoughtless action than a pre-meditated intent to cause significant harm.
I wonder if the school has CCTV?
"We're investigating an incident where someone had a nasty injury, we've checked the CCTV and you were around when it happened, did you see anything?" sort of approach. Not accusatory as such, just a statement of facts.
There may be a more sinister explanation however it would be extremely difficult/impossible to prove
To prove who did it yes but I'd have thought it would be simple for someone to just check the door to see if it "might or would" close on it's own with enough force to injure someone (in which case it probably needs adjusting), vs it being "very unlikely/impossible" (unlikely that could be taken further but at least you'd know it was likely the bullies). I'd want to check the door myself if given the opportunity...
Almost any door can close with enough force to cause damage if you are unlucky. My wife managed similar to your daughter in our house. In nursery schools where fingers are small and common sense is rare special precautions are often taken. By the time you get to secondary school I think it’s reasonable to assume that children know how doors work - so unless there is something very “snappy” about that door it’s probably just bad luck. Or she was assaulted - but if nobody witnessed that you are guessing.
If you feel the others are involved somehow then Cctv is a good shout. Whilst there wouldnt be any in the toilets there may be some covering the entrance/hall outside the school could look at it and see if the 4 girls were there/how were they reacting when they left the toilet etc.
By way of an update, I haven't spoken to the school yet, but daughter has just come back.
She has been with the pastoral team/dep head most of the afternoon, they have tried to recreate the door closing and seem to think that the door could not generate sufficient force on it's own to break bones - we can see from the X Ray that it is a clear 'line' break on each finger.
They have started an investigation, which will include interviewing the other girls and reviewing the CCTV.
Waiting for a call, so will find out more.
I still have an open mind, and even if one of the girls did nudge the door, as stated in the OP I am sure it wasn't with the intention to cause harm...I'm genuinely not after any kind of retribution, I just wanted to understand what went on.
Thanks again for all the input.
Good on you SC-CX - that is a positive and balanced approach.
This is something that I know about, but I'm not an H&S expert
The closer can be be adjusted to give a closing force, but also a retardation towards the end of its travel. They breakdown internally which is when the door slams under full closing force. This should be a regular inspection item
In a primary school (my own area of slight knowledge) we fitted plastic protectors on the hinge line, these are paired to cover the hinge face and the face opposite to the hinge and are stupid-expensive for what they are
H&S isn't one size fits all and each school will have its own risk assessments. Ask to see the one relating to that type of door and the inspection recommendations
H&S isn’t one size fits all and each school will have its own risk assessments. Ask to see the one relating to that type of door and the inspection recommendations
Or, as is suggested approach by HSE, ask if the school have done this. But don't ask to inspect oodles of paperwork in an attempt to prove fault / issues somewhere.
Where there is blame there's a claim. Fire up the ambulance chasing lawyers.
…and managing it commendably, IMO
Cheers. I work in children's social services and know that kids can do things for all sorts of reasons. I have also been chair of governors at a local school for 6 years so understand that teachers are doing their best as well.
My daughter is pretty resilient, and I am confident that one day, this bullying will be an irrelevance to her. There must be something going on with the other kids that I hope the school can support them with, but I have told the school that whatever the outcome I don't want any knee jerk reactions...as I said it would not have been malicious.
Where there is blame there’s a claim
Absolutely, get a claim in.
Is the door fitted with a closer?
It wasn't referred to by sc-xc so there seems to be an assumption there is one.
Children can be malicious - an unfortunate truth - so there may have been some deliberate intent.
The 4Fs should be followed - first find the ******* facts which is what OP is doing.
Where there is blame there’s a claim
Absolutely, get a claim in.
I was joking...please don't do that.
Partial update.
The school have been investigating, and contacted me a couple of days ago to say that, in their opinion, the door could not have closed with enough force to break bones.
They involved my daughter in the investigation, trying to recreate the incident with her, several teachers and a bloke from the FM service (Mitie).
They are continuing to speak to the other girls, but have told that without proof it will be impossible for them to do anything - it sounds as though no-one saw or knows anything, which is to be expected.
Good news is that she is back at athletics this week and feeling a bit better.
Maybe she needs some to go in with her hand still heavily bandaged- over a knuckleduster.
Glad she seems to be on the mend
Commend you for your balanced approach to the school on this; quite right to want to know what has happened and that appropriate action is/has been taken, that's not the same as demanding that everyone from the caretaker to the head of governors be flogged in the school car park which sadly is the default for many these days.
They are continuing to speak to the other girls, but have told that without proof it will be impossible for them to do anything – it sounds as though no-one saw or knows anything, which is to be expected.
Yep - but they'll know and like reporting bad driving, it all adds to the patterns of behaviour and hopefully one day there'll be a reckoning up.
It’s an accident and should be investigated as such.
o_O
if one of the girls did nudge the door, as stated in the OP I am sure it wasn’t with the intention to cause harm
Or they did intend to cause harm but - being children - they didn't appreciate how much harm they could cause.
Some things you never get the full facts.
I'm another one to say you've done well to find a balance of expectations here.