[Closed] Health and Safety gone mad...?

It's utterly ridiculous. Rules by scum for scum. It's got totally out of hand.

When I was on holiday in Austria years ago in a lovely upmarket hotel, we took the kid to the farm bit to see the animals.

You had to walk across a snow and ice covered yard
Walk up some rickety steps with snow and ice on them.
Inside there were loads of animals in stalls and loads of kids having a great time.

What smacked my gob that in the whole process there wasn't a single warning sign. Nothing, absolutely nothing. IN the UK the whole place would have been festooned with ridiculous arse covereing signs about ice, water, handrails, rabbit shit, washing hands, bitey sheep, not washing hands because the water is too hot etc etc.

The sign is obvious. We leant out of the window on a steam train journey, but only on a curve so we could see the engine, but looked out for anything - it wasn't moving fast - bloody obvious you don't lean out these days.

It’s utterly ridiculous. Rules by scum for scum.

You seem reasonable and level headed. Maybe we should just leave the inquests into tragic deaths to you from now on 🙄

Tough one, agree with the conclusion though, "caution" implies take caution, watch out for oncoming trains whilst pulling funny faces, or be sensible and look out the side without oncoming trains. You take caution when you look both ways before crossing the road.

Not "branches at 75mph come up quickly and do more than hurt".

Yep, don't see many people leaning out of car windows and no signs there. Ideally the windows shouldn't open but it was obviously an old train where you need to lean out the window to open the door. A bit of basic personal responsibility is needed. There's now so many notices the important ones get buried. Something I've seen at work, daft signs like don't climb inside the machinery!

Rules by scum for scum

Phew.

And yet, if there was a better sign, and that tree was trimmed, the chances are better there wouldn't be grieving parents.

People make bad decisions all the time, where that decision comes with a reasonable risk of death then it's probably worth reviewing the sign.

Something I’ve seen at work, daft signs like don’t climb inside the machinery!

Seen the one where the woman goes inside the meat grinder to clean it out by switching it off but bypassing the interlock so it wasnt isolated?

The back emf from one of the other machines rolling over was enough to turn it.

There is precedence set for this recently. It’s slightly ridiculous but in the end it is what it is.
It’s allied in the UK to the ‘I know my rights’ but ignoring the ‘I understand the this comes with responsibility’.

I saw 2 people painting  metal railings.

They were wearing gloves,goggles ,hard hats and hi Viz.

Can't be too careful.

There is no sticker on my bike that says 'trees hurt at 15mph'.... damnit !

It's not H&S gone mad. It's fear of litigation and the claims culture that has developed.
Austria didn't have warning signs because the people there realise snow and ice is slippery and they could fall and get hurt if they don't take care. However, in the UK the mentality has developed whereby people won't take responsibility for their own actions and want to blame someone else if anything happens.
I was involved in a case a few years ago where a woman was trying to claim damages because she slipped on ice in the company carpark. She was claiming for injury (a bruised arse), the cost of cleaning her trousers that got a bit wet and a bit dirty, and for the embarrassment caused because someone saw her slip. This incident happened after she had got up an hour early in order to clear snow from her driveway at home, de-ice her car and drive very carefully to work because of the icy conditions. She apparently forgot it was sub-zero when she arrived at work though and blamed the company for her fall.

Well, the sign was insufficient, so they are right to review it.
The problem as I see it is that you could open the window at all.

There is no sticker on my bike that says ‘trees hurt at 15mph’…. damnit !

Not someones place of work.

HS@W act 1975 means organisations have responsibilities to their employees and the public. Which is why you see signs saying warning forestry machinery when youre on your bike.

Pretty sure Roald Dahl and Quentin Blake covered the warning bit a few years ago?

However, in the UK the mentality has developed whereby people won’t take responsibility for their own actions and want to blame someone else if anything happens.

Pretty much sums it up. It’s an exercise in covering your arse that leads to ridiculous things like hot coffee having CAUTION HOT stamped in its receptacle.

TBH i used to think health and safety gone maaad now I’ve got a different take on it

Qatar World Cup for example;

According to a report published by the International Trades Union Confederation (ITUC) approximately 1,200 workers have already died since 2010 and the ITUC predicts that there will be at least 4,000 worker fatalities by the time the World Cup begins in 2022.

In contrast to the one I think we had on building the Olympic stuff.

Let em health and safety I say.

The problem as I see it is that you could open the window at all.

The problem as I see it is that profit is put before any other consideration in privatised industries. Cost cutting in order to maximise profit means the trackside flora is no longer cut back on a regular basis and as a result trees and bushes encroach on to the tracks.

There is no sticker on my bike that says ‘trees hurt at 15mph’…. damnit !

Ah but read the user manual they usually have a few good lines in them especially the american brands.

Dove1- I agree.
Me and my mates used to stick our heads out of trains all the time.
Looking back we constantly did things that could have killed us.

The problem as I see it is that you could open the window at all.

This.

The sign was arguably insufficient warning, but the problem isn't the signage but rather that it was needed in the first place. Go to any hotel in the UK, the upper floor have windows which open three inches rather that a little sign saying "warning, do not jump out of window".

I'm quite in favour of natural selection up to a point, if someone wants to excise themselves from the gene pool by doing something monumentally stupid like building their own moon rocket then good luck to them. But something like this where a moment's bad judgement can end a life, well, that's not really the same scenario.

Train company wholly culpable here IMHO. She shouldn't have been able to do what she did.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhv-2clxlJ8

If only she had watched this ..... it’s advice that’s worked well for me over the years

It’s an exercise in covering your arse that leads to ridiculous things like hot coffee having CAUTION HOT stamped in its receptacle.

Interesting example.

The woman in that story suffered life-threatening injuries due to spilling near-boiling coffee. The subsequent lawsuit was to try to get McD's to pay for her medical treatment (they initially offered her a few hundred dollars to shut up and go away). The general public perception of that case is a result of a smear campaign to make her look like a bloody idiot.

In any case, this is the same point. The solution isn't to put a warning on coffee cups - we all know coffee is hot - but rather not to serve coffee at the temperature of the sun.

Trackside foliage is cut back on a regular and scheduled basis, whilst bearing in mind nesting season and bank stability issues.  It was a clear Rule 1 violation for which she paid the ultimate price.  Where was the common sense ? It could equally have been a signal gantry, OHLE stanchion, other train that she got clipped by.  You wouldn't stick your head out of a car on a motorway would you?

Feek with trains and they will kill you and it will hurt all the time you are dying.  People climb railway fences, ignore signage or red lights and get hit, juiced up or both and its the Railways fault that the fence isn't high enough or the signage doesn't give adequate descriptions of the death you will suffer.

I've worked on the railway for nearly 27 years and the stupidity and the idiocy of the public rivals sheep for their ability to find new and innovative ways of killing or feeking themselves up!

The problem as I see it is that you could open the window at all

If you couldn’t open the window, you wouldn’t be able to open the door on arriving at your destination.

The BBC reports that RAIB found that the trees hadn't been inspected for 9 years prior to the fatality. Sounds piss-poor. It's not that long ago that trains crashed fairly regularly because of poorly sited signals, the drivers being blamed rather than the root cause being analysed. Maybe time that we moved on from having doors that need to be manually opened on main-line trains.

If you couldn’t open the window, you wouldn’t be able to open the door on arriving at your destination.

Yeah cos the reality is that type of shite carriage should have been consigned to the scrapper years ago.

Trackside foliage is cut back on a regular and scheduled basis,

Seems not in this case.

It’s utterly ridiculous. Rules by scum for scum. It’s got totally out of hand.

A bit dramatic. They’re in place to help protect people.

It's tragic but people do have to accept some personal responsibility.

It was obviously an old carrige if it had that kind of window so arguably shouldn't be in service.

That said.. It takes a special kind of idiot to stick thier head out of a train window.

The language is definitely poor, "danger" is more appropriate than "caution" which suggests "be careful" and doesn't support/reinforce the "don't do it" message. But it does still say "don't do it". (leaving aside that not everyone on the train speaks english...)

But if you should never stick anything out of the window when moving, it shouldn't open. I know we still have some rolling stock that needs the passenger to open the door, but that's not really a defence, since that's a need/risk that could be removed, and has been on many trains.

Ming the Merciless

Subscriber

Trackside foliage is cut back on a regular and scheduled basis

This is from the report:

"Given that the tree had been visibly (to an expert) in poor health for around 5 years prior to the accident, it is possible that had a tree inspection been carried out and the incident tree considered for a specialist tree inspection in the 5 years prior to the accident it might have been identified as needing felling or pruning. However, Network Rail had not undertaken a tree inspection in the area of the accident since 2009 and this is possibly causal to the accident."

The current Network Rail procedures say a tree inspection has to take place every 68 months- though I think this would have fallen under the old regime?

Also, it seems like stating the obvious but if the tree's close enough to hit a head stuck out the window, it's pretty damn close to hitting the train itself, and it shouldn't be.

Keyword "might"

New growth can be quick though! Quite often I hear small twigs whipping the side of the train on my commute, granted it's not a full on branch, but i wouldn't fancy my chances of getting my head whipped by some twigs or tendrils at 50mph, or an on coming train if I stuck my head out the other side.

Also train windows should absolutely be able to be opened. Ever been on a rammed commute in rush hour in summer with no air conditioning?

The solution isn’t to put a warning on coffee cups – we all know coffee is hot – but rather not to serve coffee at the temperature of the sun.

I'm truly amazed and saddened that you think that is the solution. It isn't. The solution is for people to take care of boiling hot drinks, because they are boiling hot. Not to make everyone else drink lukewarm drinks.

PS NealGlover. Good point well made. I overreacted.

revs1972

Being brought up on the Young Ones, and Reg Prescott, I probably had the benefit of picking up a few H&S tips that have set me up for life.

I'm still here, so they must have worked.

Kenny Everett

mattyfez

Member

New growth can be quick though!

Not on a dead tree.

thegeneralist

Member

I’m truly amazed and saddened that you think that is the solution. It isn’t. The solution is for people to take care of boiling hot drinks, because they are boiling hot. Not to make everyone else drink lukewarm drinks.

I think the reason that you're amazed and saddened, is that you are still going by the kneejerk "coffee is hot" reaction, rather than the actual facts of the Liebeck case. The reason the case was succesful wasn't that the coffee was hot, it was dangerously hot- Mcdonalds conceded that it was unsafe to drink. Her burns were far more severe than they should have been for that reason, and that's the only reason she won (her damages were increased because Macdonalds had refused earlier, lower offers, and because they'd presented misleading evidence)

(It's ages since I learned about it, but IIRC evidence presented showed that literally every other coffee vendor in the city that was tested, served it at least 10 degrees cooler, and that this would have made the difference between suffering 3rd degree burns in a couple of seconds, and it taking 15 seconds (ie, long enough to do something about it). She wasn't scalded as you'd expect if you spilled coffee on yourself, she was horribly burned in seconds and needed skin grafts.

A lot of people put a lot of effort into making sure people go "but coffee is hot" after the law suit.

I’m truly amazed and saddened that you think that is the solution. It isn’t. The solution is for people to take care of boiling hot drinks, because they are boiling hot. Not to make everyone else drink lukewarm drinks.

You are aware, I'm sure, that there is something of a gap between "boiling" and "lukewarm"?

Ah, what he said. ^^

I read this and struggled a little with the amount of time and effort that had gone into deciding that the sign that said ‘Don’t stick your head out of the window of the moving train’ was considered insufficient.

I missed the bit in the article where is said how much time had been spent deciding that the signage was wrong?

Should fatalities on our railways be investigated?
If the investigator spots something that could be improved and might reduce future risk - should they highlight it?

If we spend as much time on "no blame" investigations into road traffic fatalities as we do on Air, Maritime and Rail incidents we might actually start to learn from the failures.

HS@W act 1975 means organisations have responsibilities to their employees and the public. Which is why you see signs saying warning forestry machinery when youre on your bike.

Yup. Subsequent fairly right of centre governments didn't repeal because they realised that proper H&S actually saves organisations money.

Never mind the window, you used to be able to open the door while the train was moving.

I'm guessing a Mark 3 carriage. Not shite, saved a lot of lives in crashes, but not cheap or easy to retrofit new doors.

The Old sign was the correct colour. The word Caution should have been warning or Danger but the new sign is incorrect. Red for prohibition not Warning.
We quite often get asked to supply signs to “solve” a H&S issue. We prefer to make signs telling people what to do rather not to do. E.G. pedestrians this way rather than no entry.
HSE

The coffee analogy isn't a great comparison.

You could get hit in the face by a pigeon sticking your head out of the window of a train doing 50mph.

That would do you a serious injury if not kill you.

It's not really a comparison.

Next we'll have signs on food blenders saying 'don't put your hand into the spinning blades'.

I am so relieved this thread got the young ones clip.

And on a similar subject, in Walsall:
Walsall canal basin

Walsall canal basin is not used by boats much now, and the water quality is pretty good, so the weeds, especially dusk weed have flourished this year.
4 people fell into the water last week, as apparently, some of them thought it was a grassed surface. Now there are calls for the water to be fenced off, as its dangerous!

Next we’ll have signs on food blenders saying ‘don’t put your hand into the spinning blades’.

From the instructions for a Magimix 5200xl food processor
"Never insert your hands – or a utensil - in the feed tube while the disc, blade or
juicer is moving, to prevent serious injury and avoid damaging the appliance"

I’m guessing a Mark 3 carriage. Not shite, saved a lot of lives in crashes, but not cheap or easy to retrofit new doors.

It'd be seconds of a job to drill a stopper bolt through the door three inches under the bottom of the sliding window.

There aren't that many trains left with opening windows these days, and in reality there shouldn't be any. For somebody below a certain age this type of risk is therefore probably not as obvious as it might be for somebody older. So yes there is a need for signage, and no the signage was not clear enough, and there were too many other signs. As with a lot of these types of incidents though, it requires a lot of unfortunate coincidences to come together for things to work out as they did, and in this case the final part of the puzzle was the tree which was where it shouldn't be. She was not stupid, nor irresponsible. This is the second death in similar circumstances in recent years, the first of which was a train enthusiast, who probably would have been expected to understand the risks far better, so it clearly merits a little more attention than simply suggesting it was her own fault.

It’d be seconds of a job to drill a stopper bolt through the door three inches under the bottom of the sliding window.

And how do you reach the door handle if you can't open the window?

ScotRail are refurbishing the Mark 3 carriages, including fitting automatic sliding doors. But it is taking much longer than originally planned. Seems the carriages are not really standard, so each one needs a different sort of modifications.

@cougar you cant just bolt the windows up as with these carriages you need to be able to lean out to open the door.

Had forgotten Scotrail are fitting sliding doors. Still think these things should be on the scrap heap. Yes they were a big improvement in crashworthiness over what came before, but they are now what - over 40 years old? You can paint them and put new seats in, but lift the floor and see how much corrosion and patch welding there is to the bodyshell, and tell me they are still safe!

@cougar you cant just bolt the windows up as with these carriages you need to be able to lean out to open the door.

It's almost like conductors don't exist, isn't it.

It’s cheaper to add signs than replace carriages with ones whose doors don’t need to be opened by opening a window. And of course how do you open the door? You lean out the window. So it’s an expected behaviour in some circumstances.

Systems save people from themselves, not stickers. Never underestimate the stupidity of the general public. But done always blame them either.

It’s almost like conductors don’t exist, isn’t it.

How long would it take the conductor to walk the entire length of the train, opening all of the doors on the way? They are often 8 or 9 coaches long.
Would take much longer for passengers to get on and off the train, so increase dwell times in every station.

The Old sign was the correct colour. The word Caution should have been warning or Danger but the new sign is incorrect.

No: 1. It said caution; 2. then it said not to do something. A yellow sign (triangle) is a warning about a hazard - slippery floor, high voltage, moving parts etc. It should not tell you what to do about the hazard.

A red sign (circle) is a prohibition - do not do this
. In this case do not lean out the window when in motion. Using the word danger as the heading on the new sign is not ideal - although I can’t immediately suggest words that would be succinct and better.

Caution would be appropriate for a “mind the gap” or “automated doors” warning. The full report actually has some HSE and WHO links which have some research behind them rather than pontification by it consultants on a bike forum.

However if you read the report rather than just the press coverage you will see there are other issues identified elsewhere. Eg. GW Trains had not originally identified the risk of injury from passengers leaning out windows! The RAIB made recommendations following a previous incident in 2016 which GW did not seem to have acted on. The people responsible for acting on that had left and there was no proper mechanism to recognise that these actions were outstanding. It’s probably also worth noting the deceased had consumed a fair amount of alcohol.

It’s forseable that train passengers will be intoxicated and so safety measures need to work for all passengers.

"not cheap or easy to retrofit new doors"

It wouldn't need new doors- it's no different to fitting central locking to an old car, just needs to operate the existing mechanism with a solenoid. Control the entire thing from the cabin with a Big Red Button, or have carriage buttons like most smaller trains do with a movement interlock.

They did that NW to stop people falling out of the trains in the past. There was a time when leaning out of HSTs wasn’t the worst thing that happened to passengers, they fell out when the doors opened whilst moving.

Fixing the windows opening whilst moving is the next level up issue. New trains.

Hmmmmm - I tend to come down on the "personal responsibility" site of the argument. But I also think if they are running trains where it's possible/easy to lean-out of the windows to that extent, then they have a responsibility to ensure that the associated risks are minimized - ie, branches etc are not allowed to get that close to the train.

Worth noting that she leaned out of the nearside of the train: it's easy to imagine that ALL the risk is associated with a passing train (as these get quite close). I don't think it's reasonable that she should have expected a branch or other solid object to be within 1ft of a moving train on the nearside. Whoever's job it is to maintain the tracks/trees will have a rule about how far back foliage needs to be..... and I bet it's more that a ft.

Dear God there are some utterly nasty bastards on this thread.

Someone's died. Yes, they may have been a bit stupid. But she probably had family and loved ones who cared for her. Being stupid should not come with a death penalty if it doesn't have to; likewise inadvertently giving birth to a stupid person shouldn't condemn you to pain and suffering, if avoidable.

You know why there are signs on machines saying 'Do not climb into this machine' ? Because people climb into the ****ing machines. If a sign saves just one life, it's worth putting up signs. You could look at it another way - rather than bemoaning this country for being litigious and praising others for nurturing common sense; how about praising this one for people giving a shit ?

On a residential street in Helsinki a contractor dug a hole in the street - easily 2m square, 1.5m deep and very square edged. They put a single bollard near it. Bike lights were poor in those days, I came quite close on my bike before I saw it. Presumably it'd have been my own fault for not watching where I was going? H&S is as it is in this country because we want people to be safe, we make them take precautions.

Anyway. How do you think you lot became so clever and superior? How do you know not to lean out of train windows? Because you were taught as kids, like I was. People told you, who may have read signs. you may even have read a sign. So how are signs bad again?

The old doors are also a fail for disability access. All trains are supposed to be compliant by January 2020, but looks like that won't happen, still plenty of old trains running. The train companies will need to request a derogation.

but it was obviously an old train where you need to lean out the window to open the door.

To me that's the issue - surely our rail system shouldn't be reliant on old trains where you have to open a window to open a door and any kind of warning sticker isn't a substitute for upgrading the trains (or even just the doors) so they meet modern safety standards.

How long would it take the conductor to walk the entire length of the train, opening all of the doors on the way? They are often 8 or 9 coaches long.
Would take much longer for passengers to get on and off the train, so increase dwell times in every station.

Yet if the alternative is the occasional decapitation? Price worth paying?

Do they check the doors are properly secured before the train sets off again, out of interest?

Really, as others have said, that sort of train needs retiring (or refitting). I'm amazed they still exist, I've not seen one like that in years. Though of course that's easy to say when someone needs to get their hand in their pocket to do so, I can't imagine a new fleet of rolling stock would be particularly cheap.

The mainline trains into Paddington are still that type I think? Not commuted that way since last year through and theres new trains.

Does seem an oversight not to add an internal handle and lock the window, when they added the interlocks. Or make it small enough an opening that you can only get an arm out.

Yet if the alternative is the occasional decapitation? Price worth paying?

Even a decade ago when I last rode in the GWR fun palaces, the doors were locked remotely so there is no need to have an opening window at all. The only possible useful function is for the guard to be able to lean out after he has locked the doors and check for idiots falling under the train as it pulls away.

joking aside, this is EXTREMELY rare! I travelled to school every day for 7 years on one of these trains (as did thousands of other kids). We stuck our heads out of the window all the time cos it was fun! No deaths AFAIK. I’d say it’s the tree in this case which is the clear danger factor, definitely a failure by Network Rail (or whoever is responsible), railway lines should obviously be kept clear & nothing should ever come anywhere near a train.

Sure. Seems to be a catalogue of failures which led to this tragic conclusion, rather than one single factor.

I can’t imagine a new fleet of rolling stock would be particularly cheap.

GWR did it, I've not been on an old Intercity train in ages nor have I seen one. I think they are all retired now?

. I don’t think it’s reasonable that she should have expected a branch or other solid object to be within 1ft of a moving train on the nearside. 

This is the bottom line, the signage was adequate IMHO, but if the window opens people will put their head out of it. I obviously naively thought trees ect were cut back at least 3/4ft, possibly more and kept that way. And yes I used to stick my head out of train windows, kids almost always did. Tunnel chicken was quite popular, it doesn't take much imagination to guess the rules.

I never knew the history of CAUTION HOT. Great to stumble across a thread and actually learn something. The lady was bloody lucky it wasn’t a hot apple pie though. That would’ve resulted in her bones being melted.

GWR are still using the HSTs for some routes further west, ie Cardiff and Penzance. They are supposed to be getting new doors fitted, not sure how that is progressing.
And many of the old GWR trains are going to other companies, mostly ScotRail. So they could be around for a while yet.

Some of the South eastern networker trains have stickers on the outside at the end of the carriage saying not to ride here. Think a few years ago kids were clinging on and riding the outside of train, same with buses.

If you're stupid enough to do this, then so be it, no need for ar5e covering H&S signage.

The trouble with all the signage is the important ones gets lost amongst the others. So in the example i quoted of dont climb into the machine, that notice and many others obscured the ones warning people with pace makers to keep clear which was important and not something people would know without signage. Not climbing into the machine Given the amount of training people had and the supervision on hand it would have been unthinkable. Molgrips your example of an open hole is completely irrelevant, of course it should have had signage and barriers, it wasn't reasonable to expect you to look for, not sticking your head out of a train at 70mph is a reasonable expectation. There's a lot of track infrastructure really close to the trains.

We were in Iceland on bikes. Riding around on trails, asked a local where the top of the live volcano was..... "oh you are standing on it."

No signs, nothing. The guy explained that if you are foolish enough to stand on a live volcano, and you know it is live, then why should we stop you?

The guy explained that if you are foolish enough to stand on a live volcano, and you know it is live, then why should we stop you?

While that sounds like a utopia for all the people that moan about Health and Safety “gone mad”

What it really means is

if you are unfortunate enough to unintentionally stand on a live volcano, in an area you are unfamiliar with, then why should we warn you?

Not the best attitude really is it.

The old doors are also a fail for disability access. All trains are supposed to be compliant by January 2020, but looks like that won’t happen, still plenty of old trains running. The train companies will need to request a derogation.

Which is only part of the problem since many stations remain partially or completely inaccessible for disabled people. No good having a fully accessible and compliant train if the person can't actually get on or off the platform...

GWR did it, I’ve not been on an old Intercity train in ages nor have I seen one. I think they are all retired now?

As said they went to Scotrail who don't actually own them but can (and are in the process of) modify and refurbish as they see fit. Rolling stock is owned by someone else, the rail industry is as bad as shipping with charters, owners, holdings etc.

Do we think a different sign would have made a difference?

Pondo, nope.

Pondo, nope from me too.

Its down to liability for failure of the person using the door in the correct manner.

There have been numerous incidents of apsengers being injured or killed while leaning out of train windows or even falling from them.

Quite a few years ago a chap was filming a steam train entering the Conway tubular bridge from a coach window, he failed to pull his head in time and was sadly killed, then another chap exited the train in New Street tunnel, Birmingham,and was killed then a few years ago a rail technician accessed the guards door and stuck his head out and was also killed, and many more killed or seriously injured.

Mk 2 and 3 stock has drop light opening windows to access the door handle on the ouside, along with solenoid bolts fitted inside under the control of the train manager/guard, who release them at a station, retro fitting of plug type doors has been done on various mk 2 and 3 stock, to enable doors to be closed by the guard and proved locked before the train can move, yellow indicator lights on coach sides lit.

Also in the days of BR, window bars where fitted to a lot of commuter stock as there was a close pass risk, when passing lineside structures.

Nowadays all new stock has sliding or bi-folding or plug doors, all under the control of the guard/train manager or the driver, who releases the open close buttons for passenger use, and the doors can all be closed and locked at departure.