[Closed] Heads, Shoulders, HEEL & TOE, HEEL & TOE

Guess you're just not AWESOME enough 😉

I wouldn't worry those that claimed it's what they do or can do it mean it's when playing GT5.

I have just been flooring it in 1st most the time. Seems to be working.

It does take some practice & isn't easy in every car. My track car it is easy, but I've had nine years to get used to it, where as my daily driver is a bloody nightmare to get it right.

To answer a question i was asked in the other thread by julianwilson - it's pretty much down to having spent the last few years pretty much permanently in a car and the fact that the roads are full of asshats that think they're tommi makinen's more talented cousin when in reality they have the car control and skills of a deaf blind diplodocus.

My track car it is easy

Because the pedals are laid out for it. Road cars aren't designed to be H&T'd because they're road cars, not race cars and it's simply not necessary. Sadly this doesn't stop the rallycar wannabes... 🙄 (not you goldenwonder - thinking of some other silly people..)

To get serious, this is my first winter driving as only passed my test in march, ironically my first test was cancelled the previous December due to the bad weather, and it is certainly been an eye opener dealing with icy roads. Luckily where I live is relatively flat, so no big hills to contend with, but little country lanes have been interesting. Has definitely made me consider doing an IAM course.....or the very least a go on a skid pan!

Shame the other thread descended into a bunfight as usual.

Have a look at this then go and sit in the corner

Is this thread about real advanced driving skills or is it about activating microswitches with free foot to activate brake lights?
I promise not to post anymore cartoon characters on this thread.

On my Integra Type-R you had to be hard on the brakes to be able to get to the throttle (like you would do on I track I guess), but my old Elan (1990's one) was much easier.

Current car - not a chance (for me).

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but what possible requirement is there for the heel & toe driving technique on the public highways of the United Kingdom?

Would have been nice to have been able to do it, just to fiddle about with.
In my old Fiesta, it was fairly easy to do clutchless gear shifts, so long as you timed the shift right and matched the revs well enough on the way back down. It got to the point I could pretty much do most of my commute without touching the clutch.
Don't know why, but I find it impossible in the Ibiza. The gearbox just doesn't like it at all, so I don't bother. Seems a shame though as there was something satisfying about getting it right.

I used to spend quite a bit of time on the Parker's forum and there was an ex-Police driver/IAM bloke on there who was fairly blunt in his posting, but always spoke sense. He got me round to thinking about IAM training and the like, but it's something I have never followed-up on. Perhaps I'll give it a bash in 2011. How hard can it be?? 😉
Mate of mine did it shortly after uni and had hardly any sessions before passing his test - he is an annoyingly talented driver though.

I quite fancy a skid pan session too. Might book me and the other half on one at some point.

It makes your driving smoother - much better in the current weather conditions. Mechanically more sympathetic too as you're matching speeds rather than slipping/dumping the clutch on a change.

Oh, and it makes you a driving demi-god.

The Flying Ox - Member
Not to be a Debbie Downer, but what possible requirement is there for the heel & toe driving technique on the public highways of the United Kingdom?

One of the main advantages of it (as I understand it)is mechanical sympathy - reducing wear/strain on the gearbox/engine/clutch/drivetrain. So, I'd say it's not an unreasonable requirement.

But you can easily do that without H&T on the road unless you're trying to brake/accelerate right at the limit - absolutely no need for it on the road.

Is it any smoother than a properly executed sustained gear change? All my driving courses have had a huge emphasis on smoothness, but never suggested heel-and-toeing.

How about avoiding overlap between braking and changing gear or the 101 other safer less complex techniques for maintaining a balanced car with an eye on mechanical sympathy. Heel toe has no place on public roads.

The reason for it explained in:
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/driving-below-the-speed-limit-does-not-make-you-less-of-a-man/page/2#post-2123546

Modern road cars aren't really set up to make it easy to do - generally the brake pedal is too high relative to the accelerator. However I can do it in my Pug 406 with my size 7 feet.

To those who say there's no need, when you're engine braking down a hill and want to change down a gear to increase the engine braking, how do you do that without your car accelerating?

How about avoiding overlap between braking and changing gear

Explain to me why you would need or even want to do it on a public road. Then explain why you are dicking around with the pedals and putting peoples lives at risk.

clubber - Member
But you can easily do that without H&T on the road unless you're trying to brake/accelerate right at the limit - absolutely no need for it on the road.

Good point.

Currently, I tend to down shift on the approach to a junction and match the revs as I do so, before braking as I get closer. 90% of the time it goes pretty seamlessly.
Sometimes I find as I'm approaching a junction/roundabout/whatever I want to downshift, but have left it a bit late to find space to downshift and fit in the braking without hammering the brakes on at the last second. Probably better observation required. In these situations I tend to leave out the downshifting, brake an appropriate amount and then select the correct gear for the speed I have braked to.

I figured that learning to heel-toe would perhaps make the whole thing a bit more controlled & sometimes less 'rushed' when i get my timing/observation wrong.
Plus, I like to try new things with driving and so if it was possible in my car it's something I'd like to learn.

Is it primarily a 'racing' technique, then or an 'advanced driving' technique??

EDIT - SBZ > I guess my description above as to how I currently do it is 'avoiding brake/gear overlap'??

Read the linked post, SBZ (or even what I've just written).

Heel toe has no place on public roads.

Surrounded By Zulus - Member
Explain to me why you would need or even want to do it on a public road. Then explain why you are dicking around with the pedals and putting peoples lives at risk.

Practice? Learning something new? Challenging yourself?

I am not sure how it would be putting peoples lives at risk. I would only ever practice it where the conditions were suitable and there were no other cars/people around. It's not like I'd hoon up to Hangar Lane Gyratory in rush hour and suddenly decide to try out some heel-to action for the first time.
In the sort of 'practice' conditions I envisage doing it in, I think the only risk would be getting it wrong and knackering your own car (unlikely).

Anyway - end of the day for me. Christmas drink with colleagues and then home.

stumpy - I thought we'd established it wasn't possible in your car (that was after all why it came up in the first place!) Anyway, it's really not something that's worth bothering with for your example - AFAIK the current advice is to ignore the gears until you need to change down because the revs have dropped too much, then just make one gearchange for which there should be no need to lift engine revs to make it smooth. You brake using the brakes, not the gears when coming into a corner/junction (unless you're on a track).

aracer - that post just shows me that you do not have a clue how to drive in snow.

stumpy01 - if you want to learn something new and challenge yourself - how about learning to drive well in a manner that is suitable for use on the public roads.

Rich_s - I can teach you to do it if you want me to. Will cost you a fair bit though.

Heel toe shifting does have a place on the road, if done correctly it facilitates faster and smoother downshifts, reducing the time the car spends coasting, and reducing the likelihood of locked wheels, especially in the current conditions. It also helps to reduce wear on the driveline as you are matching the speeds of the input and output shafts in the gearbox before releasing the clutch, meaning no sudden jump in revs, exactly the same as blipping the throttle while changing down for an overtake to avoid driveline shunt.

Some people will never agree that you can improove standards of your driving by stepping outside of the way they were taught to drive.

Driving is a simple thing complicated by idiots.

But you can easily do that without H&T on the road unless you're trying to brake/accelerate right at the limit - absolutely no need for it on the road.

its literally NOTHING to do with being quick.
its to be smooth.
it just so happens, smooth helps with quick.

Its not required, otherwise it would be taught, but it is USEFUL.
and learning to do it correctly under controlled conditions, in a sensible manner. (eg: at cautious speeds, on empty roads, not hooning it into traffic) means you can then use it as an option.

are you telling us, you have NEVER come over the crest of a hill having been cruising in 5th, and found it steeper than you would rather it have been?

the obvious solution is just to keep you foot planted firmly on the brake to maintain the correct speed, but your increasing wear on the car, putting unnessecery heat in the brakes, which can be quite dangerous, and wont have the same control over the descent. Also, if you have to then STOP, you have to stop in 5th (essentially coast down the last 30mph).

OR you could go from 5th, with low revs, to 3rd, with high revs, and then take your foot clean off the brake for the descent and let the engine do all the work

its literally NOTHING to do with being quick.
its to be smooth.
it just so happens, smooth helps with quick.

SBZ - could you teach me how to left foot brake?

Genuine question to H&T "opposition":

to change down, do you:

a) just chuck it in

b) slip the clutch to try and prevent the jolt, or

c) use your right foot to bring the engine to match the wheels?

if c: its only one step further from that.

are you telling us, you have NEVER come over the crest of a hill having been cruising in 5th, and found it steeper than you would rather it have been?

Never.

A good alternative to this would be to look out the front windscreen, read what is happening in the distance and PLAN AHEAD.

Rich_s - probably not. My skills are at teaching advanced driving not working miracles.

aracer - that post just shows me that you do not have a clue how to drive in snow.

aracer - attitude mate, attitude.

Ah, the usual catch all when you can't actually find anything to fault.

So what exactly do you think my desire to keep the speed down by engine braking, which is better at keeping traction than using the brakes, says about my attitude?

You could just retract gracefully now if you want...

Ah, the usual catch all when you can't actually find anything to fault.

OK, so given I seem to manage pretty well (and a vast amount better than 99% of the people on the road from what I can see), please explain what I've got wrong.

As I said - attitude. Cant be told that you are wrong and think you're better than almost everyone else.

Attitude is the single most important aspect of being a good driver, by a long long long way.

Seems you can't read either - I was after an explanation of what I'd got wrong. Are you denying me the evidence of my own eyes of lots of people wheelspinning and sliding all over the place when I'm not?

I'll note that you seem to have concluded I had something wrong even before I made that post though - I'm still waiting for the explanation.

If attitude really is so important, then I really don't want to be on the road anywhere near you, given the attitude you always display on here.

I used to H+T when I had a car (EP3) and wanted to drive like a rally demon 🙄
It really has no use on public roads, if you feel it does, then you are probably going too fast for the conditions. Yes its tempting in a fast car, but you know you're in the wrong. I'm not saying that I never play on my m/bike, but I know knee downs are fun, and not required + am more likely to have an accident whilst doing so.

H+T useful on track and private toll roads ('Ring), but not on public road. It does produce a much smoother, less likely to lock the wheels, change down of the gears. I would use the outside edge of my foot if the pedals were stretched 😀

Never.

Might add to the "what amazes you" thread:

"no matter how many times something really simple is explained, how people still manage to just not get it"

Somethings that are used by QUICK drivers (racers) are still useful for SLOW drivers (Diesel estates)

[i]Seems you can't read either - I was after an explanation of what I'd got wrong. Are you denying me the evidence of my own eyes of lots of people wheelspinning and sliding all over the place when I'm not?[/i]

No idea, but alarm bells always sound in my head when someone says they're appear better than 99% of other drivers.
Luckily I'm a crap driver so never face such issues 🙂

LOL at all the "but it's better for my gearbox and clutch" nonsense.
You honestly think over the course of your ownership of your car, you're going to make that much of a difference? In that case, I have a bridge for sale that you may be interested in.

Seriously, learn it on a track and transfer that to the roads when you can do it and only then. Don't be a fanny and start h&t-ing it to the shops in the snow and ice.

To those who say there's no need, when you're engine braking down a hill and want to change down a gear to increase the engine braking, how do you do that without your car accelerating?

Erm, I'd probably suggest application of the brake, changing down, then releasing the brake. Safer than dicking around anywhere near the accelerator on such a descent.

Another thought of another point RE: "no place for it on the public highway"

how many "no place for it on the public highway"ers drive manual transmissions?

an automatic is perfectly capable in every situation, and removes the added complication and confusion of a THIRD pedal, let alone a gear stick.
why bother driving a manual at all?

Hehe. "Automatic"
For the sake of continuity of your own arguement, I take it you're at this very moment typing out how engine braking down a hill with an automatic gearbox works.

OK , Just for second think about the drivers who own older cars with worn out syncromesh rings.
Lots of gearboxs are 'tired' or 'slow' and quick downshifts 'beat the syncro' .
If you can H + T , and DD its possible to drive quickly , and smoothly by using this technique.
Not everyone in the world has the means to drive around in nice , new modern cars .
I dont know , but is not the DSG or double clutch system supposed to replicate or render pointless H + T shifting?

Give me strength.

the car control and skills of a deaf blind diplodocus.

😆

Don't holiday in the westcountry George, I think it would finish you off for good!

engine braking isn't seen as current good driving practise. According to a driving instructor I was arguing with the other day. Apparently brake wear is OK but clutch wear isn't. Which doesn't seem right, I'll carry on using engine braking.

Heel and toe - don't make me laugh, I could hit all three pedals at once with my feet!

The reason they used to teach engine braking is because cars had drum brakes which were a pain in the butt to keep on adjusting, so they would go for increasing wear on the bits that last the longest. Now brakes adjust themselves so they encourage wear on them instead of the clutch. Pretty simple really.

Surely the sensible-ness engine braking depends on the location of the driven wheels and the load on them. What about a RWD f6rd ranger pickup with nothing in the back? I'd rather brake using the front wheels under the engine on that one... I was told not to engine brake when I did that local authority 'driving kids in minibus' training, (this was an lwb rwd transit minibus with no one in the back).

PMSL at the H&T justifications for "normal" road driving!

You can have this argument every day of the week over on Pistonheads.

I always rev match on a downshift, either heel and toe, or without braking, because it's smoother, and like many things, it's satisfying when you get it right.

The argument against heel and toe usually revolves around the fact that the system of driving taught by the IAM teaches you explicitly to not overlap braking and gear changing. Having heard the arguments on both sides, I believe that this is as much about having a standardised system that can be taught and tested, as about having any specific advantage over heel and toe.

Heel and toe is certainly not essential for normal road driving: you can just prepare earlier and avoid overlapping your braking and downshifting, but it can be satisfying when you smoothly combine the two.

I learned to do it shortly after passing my test, in a 950cc Fiesta. I learned it because it seemed interesting, then I stopped doing it since I never needed it really.

I thought it was needed on old cars because they had no synchromesh, and on racing cars because they were being pushed so hard..?

You don't need to engine brake in a modern car unless you are going down a very LONG hill and the brakes might overheat. And if it's icy or snowy then you are probably better off on the brakes alone since you are going really slowly anyway (aren't you?) and they work evenly on all four wheels. And the brakes have ABS. Engine braking is just retarding force on the wheels same as brakes.

I am a very smooth driver and I don't do it. I get smooth gear changes by slipping the clutch slightly and changing down at low revs when slowing down.

Engine breaking and block shifting is kind of taught on the current driving test. There are questions on each in the theory although you don't need to use either in the practical test.

breaking or braking?

Ha ha braking

What people forget is that the driving test is the minimum acceptable standard. Sadly for the vast majority of the population the day they pass their test is as good as their driving gets..

And if it's icy or snowy then you are probably better off on the brakes alone since you are going really slowly anyway (aren't you?) and they work evenly on all four wheels. And the brakes have ABS. Engine braking is just retarding force on the wheels same as brakes.

Seriously - try both when descending a hill, and see which gives you better control.

Now brakes adjust themselves so they encourage wear on them instead of the clutch.

Not one comment about the vid of Walter rohl that pistonbroke posted! That Audi was "awesome" and totally deserved the "A" word, and as for Walter, well he did nearly kill my old man in a 911 on the Manx rally, but that's another story!!

Er, no. Have you tried braking on a car with ABS in the snow? You get a continuous cycle of skid, no brake, skid, no brake which doesn't do a lot to slow you down. As opposed to engine braking which will provide a decelerating force without trying to completely stop the wheels turning.

I do it all the time.

Engine braking = retarding force on wheels. Too much force = skid
Normal braking = retarding force on wheels. Too much force = skid

If your ABS is kicking in you are braking too hard. If you are too ham-footed to brake gently then I suppose engine braking might help you be smooth 🙂

Still think it's better to brake on four wheels than two (assuming 2wd).

Except that when you're in gear engine braking down a hill there is no wear on the clutch.

How does having the clutch depressed wear it out?

Engine braking causes wear on the clutch and engine?
Hahaha.

Engine braking causes wear on the clutch and engine?

Enlighten me as to what slows the car down when it undergoes engine braking. Is it the magical retardation properties of pixie dust? Please let it be. I think there is plenty evidence for retardation due to pixie dust all around us, especially in this thread.

I've lost track of who's arguing for which side now... 😕

You don't need to engine brake in a modern car unless you are going down a very LONG hill and the brakes might overheat. And if it's icy or snowy then you are probably better off on the brakes alone since you are going really slowly anyway (aren't you?) and they work evenly on all four wheels. And the brakes have ABS. Engine braking is just retarding force on the wheels same as brakes.

I started to turn to the left the car slid straight on. Tapping the brake pedal just got tha ABS all excited and I slid to a gentle halt against the low snowy kerb on the opposite side

And engine braking helped how?

I'm not saying engine braking is bad, I'm saying it won't help you on icy roads.

You lot talk about ABS like it's a bad thing. If you don't have it you have to feather the brakes just like the ABS does automatically anyway, otherwise you skid and end up out of control.

Molgrips, don't you drive a Prius? I'm no mechanic nor expert driver. But as I understand it engine braking in hybrids is simulated to replicate traditional engine braking, extra revs are lost on purpose by the engine to prevent batteries becoming shorted out? Just asking you as someone in the know. As I said I'm definately no expert driver, on my lessons Ive been using engine braking on the ice both toward junctions and down steep hills. As an experiment I applied the foot brake (in safe area) and found the car harder to control having to steer into the skid to straighten up. Wish I started driving sooner as I love it.

Engine braking = retarding force on wheels. Too much force = skid
Normal braking = retarding force on wheels. Too much force = skid

How does having the clutch depressed wear it out?

Blinkin flip, this is heavy stuff!
As wrightson said, no one commented on the vid of Walter Rohl dancing on the pedals. If it was as dangerous to do as some on here are making out he would have wiped out half of portugal! I can bet he wasn't even consciously thinking about it, just so praticed at it that it was instinctive. (pretty good though!)
I used to do a bit of rallying and used it quite a lot, still do just from habit half the time, and i drive a Berlingo!
I would agree you don't want to learn it in traffic or in this weather but once learnt it certainly is smoother, kinder to the car and no more dangerous. If hashed up it may get dodgy of course!
ps. today I saw someone driving with the mobile in one hand and a cig in the other, now that does get me worried!!
Happy Christmas!

So if a jet on a treadmill-style runway used engine braking, would it stay in the same position on the runway but slow it down, or fall off the back?
What about if it used wheel braking?

Molgrips, don't you drive a Prius?

Yes, but I have driven other cars too 🙂

It doesn't quite simulate engine braking, it simulates the drag of a traditional auto which will de-clutch when you lift off but you still slow down slightly quicker than coasting because of drag.

The significant difference being that with engine braking the wheels will always keep turning

Yes but they can still skid. ABS is meant to keep the wheels turning too.

[img] [/img]

Is that supposed to illustrate you missing the point?

Though I guess you do use the words "meant to", so maybe you do get it.

and like many things, it's satisfying when you get it right.

This is pretty much entirely why I used to do things like H and T shifting when I owned a car that was suitable (and incidentally had a pedal layout that made it easy).

This is because I enjoy driving, and I enjoy the total immersion of the driving experience.

My mr2 was only a 1.6 so the actual speed was never that high, but the work required to keep the engine singing and maintain speed in a smaller car meant that it was all the more immersive an experience and incredibly satisfying when it all came together on a good bit of road.

And by "all coming together" I don't mean driving like a hooligan - I mean driving at pace, in a controlled manner where you are hyper-aware of all that's going on around you.
Probably some of the safest driving I've ever done.

Incidentally I tried to gently learn left foot braking once on the road, and decided it was definitely not something for me to learn in that environment!

aracer - Member

The significant difference being that with engine braking the wheels will always keep turning.

Sorry, but this is just incorrect.

Try changing down to 1st at 70mph then letting the clutch out.
I can assure you that the wheels will lock.

Have you never heard of a slipper clutch? Many modern production and racing motorcycles are fitted with such a device, specifically to eliminate the risk of over revving the engine and locking the driven wheel(s) during downchanges.
[url= http://www.sigmaperformance.com/slipperclutch.html ]Link. [/url]

[img] [/img]

The graphic I posted is "splitting hairs" innit.

Anyway - aracer, are you saying that you don't like ABS? Something of a different debate of course. The way I see it, whenever I've driven a car without ABS I've had to feather the brakes to avoid skidding in slippery situations. ABS just does that exact same thing only on individual wheels (which I can't do) and very quickly.

I suppose there are good and bad ABS implementations. On the Passat the pulsing of the ABS is so quick it's like a vibration. Feels like you're hitting gravel or something.

[i]Sorry, but this is just incorrect.

Try changing down to 1st at 70mph then letting the clutch out.
I can assure you that the wheels will lock[/i]

What would cause them to lock? Skid sure, but locking means zero rotation - what would cause that?

What would cause them to lock? Skid sure, but locking means zero rotation - what would cause that?

Couple of reasons really:

The engine will not be able to spin up fast enough to keep up with the demands of the driven wheels and gearbox. All engines have a maximum rate of acceleration, exceed this and it will 'seize'.
It simply will not be able to deal with the volume of air/fuel that it is being asked to process.

The majority of engines now also have rev limiters which use various means to restrict maximum revs. Wheels will lock when this limit is reached.

Also, pistons (and all the other bits, but pistons tend to be the culprits because they have to accelerate, stop, then accelerate in the opposite direction twice every revolution) can only travel at a certain speed before failing (about 26 metres per second for road engines). Force pistons to accelerate and decelerate faster than their intended design speed and they tend to make a bid for freedom, usually straight out of the side of the block.

Wow - that's an impressive strawman you've got there, RS - is Sergeant Howie inside?

Little hint - when we talk about engine braking we don't mean chucking it in 1st at 70mph and seizing the engine. Maybe you'd like to explain how engine braking down a hill in 2nd gear at 15mph would cause the wheels to lock?

I reckon molgrips has never driven down the sort of slippery road I'm referring to where it's extremely difficult to avoid skidding using the brakes, yet engine braking won't result in a skid - have one I go down every time I drive which has been like that a lot recently (I've tried both using the brakes and engine braking down there). Either that or he's a driving god.

wow all the stw cocks in a thread together

On my Integra Type-R you had to be hard on the brakes to be able to get to the throttle (like you would do on I track I guess), but my old Elan (1990's one) was much easier.

Current car - not a chance (for me).

The only car I've ever had where pedal layout allowed for H & T was my Integra Type R. Every other car the pedals were too far apart, or a diesel like now.

It was probably the only car I've had where I felt it of any benefit though. But like was said, you need to be braking hard.

Usfull to learn, much like left foot braking but might only be needed once in a blue moon, if ever! But it might make that one tricky journey possible if you know how to do it.

Little hint - when we talk about engine braking we don't mean chucking it in 1st at 70mph and seizing the engine. Maybe you'd like to explain how engine braking down a hill in 2nd gear at 15mph would cause the wheels to lock?

Little hint - when we talk about foot braking we don't mean burying the pedal through the bottom of the footwell and welding the pads onto the discs/drums. Maybe you'd like to explain how gentle feathering of the brake would cause the wheels to lock?