[Closed] Having the 'you need to give up driving' conversation with parents

I'm not looking forward to that conversation with my dad, either.

If you are lucky they might not be able to get insured after a total loss* like that, have they checked?
Wife's family got dad to prove he was still a good enough driver by taking some sort of extended driving test - he failed & had licence taken off him there and then.
*my dad had 2 total losses (flood & someone he leant his car to crashed it) & found he was virtually uninsurable.
Good luck, its a tricky path to tread.

Try steering them to the idea of a Tesla with collision detection (maybe that is only in autopilot mode):

Clips 8, 9 10 and 11 are quite impressive.

I think it’s actually my mum pushing for it as she doesn’t want their lifestyle to change; despite being 80 she detests the thought of being considered an old fogie, and they’re very active.

does your mum drive too? is her awareness any better than his?
were there any other factors involved - e.g. dark, or distrations that could be mitigated against.
Whilst I'm really not keen on encouraging people to drive who shouldn't, I'm not overly keen on consigning active 80 year olds to the scrap heap either. Of course you don't want them to be a risk to themselves or others, but equally you presumbaly don't want to accelerate their decline into an unhealthy old age?

I’m seeing them tonight and plan to have a talk, mainly to firmly, but, again, kindly, tell them that their driving time is up.

I don't see that conversation going well. If they are sound mind then its not really your decision to make. Imagine if you got complacent riding your bike had a big crash and your mother called you up and said - "you need to stop riding bikes, you have responsibilities now". That's the sort of reaction you should expect.

You could encourage them to go discuss with the doctor (who will need to reissue license at some point in the next 3 yrs because they expire - so no point buying a car if a few months later he will not sign it off); or perhaps to go out with a driving instructor (although I cannot imagine suggesting that to my father).

But I think your best bet is to help them understand how well they could live without a car. e.g. do they get food deliveries; do they use amazon (we may hate it - but for an elderly person with no car its pretty helpful); do they use/understand the busses (which are probably free for them), etc? I think you've more chance saying let see how you get on and how much we can help you whilst waiting for the insurance than just saying they shouldn't.

The wife went through this a while back. Pretty similar actually. He wrote a car off by pulling out on someone. He did surrender his license in the end.

Perhaps suggest an advanced test? If they/he can pass that, you'll back off, if now, they/he stops driving?

Try focusing on the financial aspect.

My grandfather kept on trying to keep driving in spite of numerous little incidents - bumps and scrapes mostly. His insurance premiums kept going up and up and eventually (after considerable intervention from neighbours, my Mum and so on) he realised that the monthly cost of the car in terms of insurance, fuel, maintenance would buy him lots of taxi journeys and would free up cash for other things like home improvements.

It took a while though, he was extremely reluctant to "give up his freedom".

does your mum drive too? is her awareness any better than his?

No, she doesn't, so I don't think she realises quite how poor his driving has become.

were there any other factors involved – e.g. dark, or distrations that could be mitigated against.

Nope. Mid-afternoon, not massively busy junction. He has, previously, driven straight through a junction without noticing (my sister was in the car at the time).

When they were here last he drove into the back of our car without noticing whilst manoeuvring in the drive, and there was a prolonged conversation about which way they were going to drive home as his choices were a busy-ish dual carriageway or a bendy/hilly road, neither of which he liked the idea of. In the end they went another way, which is a fair chunk longer than either of those two options.

But I think your best bet is to help them understand how well they could live without a car.

Definitely, and we've been doing this.

We did with my grandfather. He was reluctant to listen to family. He (as nurse himself) hugely respected his doctor - and so a phone call was made and the doctor was wonderful. At next appointment he voiced concern and undertook a couple of basic tests - eyesight, mobility and reactions. And asked the the car keys while ordering a taxi home.

I am expecting that conversation with my father shortly. My BiL is ex police, some traffic unit training and time. He has been messaging over last few months about my dad's eyesight and reaction times. I spoke to my dad a couple of years ago - and we have a verbal agreement that when my sister and I say 'enough', he will stop.

The big issue for my father and grandfather is the mundane - getting shopping, visiting friends or his church etc. He can do it all by bus, taxi and some friends giving lifts. I expect more of the conversation will be about how we help him out and solve those very real concerns.

Why not combine it with the "How to use UBER" conversation. Add app. Book a trip somewhere nice (pub?) Have conversation. Book trip home.

I have a neighbour who drives at age 93. He can hardly walk and has visible shakes. Frightening.

The big issue for my father and grandfather is the mundane – getting shopping, visiting friends or his church etc. He can do it all by bus, taxi and some friends giving lifts.

That was the issue with my grandfather.
He was so used to doing everything by car that he could not conceive of any other way of doing it. Also he "didn't want to be a burden" on the neighbours in spite of the fact that they basically lived in each others houses - the type of neighbours who were basically family, they'd lived next door to each other for decades.

It was a bit of an eye-opener on how bad a car-dependent society can be in terms of trying to live outside it after decades of 100% car usage.

I remember my dad trying to have this conversation with his father twenty years ago. He had just bought a 3.5L V8 Rover SD1 which was much too big and quick for someone who was used to an old 1.3 Alegro. The automatic Mondeo he got next was worse as he braked sharply every time he though he needed to change gear, never got the hang of that missing pedal.
That conversation didn't go well.
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I'm not looking forward to the same with my dad, my mum can drive, and is a lot younger (62/78) so I'll probably leave it to her, but she never drives if they go somewhere together. Also, old folks seem able to afford the bigger, faster cars which doesn't help, currently a 4L XJS, an MGTF and 2.5 V6 MG-ZT between them. Not ideal for someone who's reaction times are increasing rapidly...
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Also depends where they live. In rural Lincolnshire my parents have no choice. It's drive or stay at home.

The big issue for my father and grandfather is the mundane – getting shopping, visiting friends or his church etc.

To be honest, this kind of stuff isn't really an issue. They use local buses to get into town, they walk to the Doctors, there's a Tesco/CoOp etc in walkable distance for bits of shopping and they're starting to use online shopping for a 'main' shop and they're happy enough ordering from eBay/Amazon etc.

It's more the 'days out' things that they like to do, like visiting National Trust places (for which public transport is rarely an option and taxis would be expensive if they're an hour's drive away), or seeing family (but we all live within fairly easy train journeys).

IHN. sounds like you're totally doing the right thing. It is tricky, but you need to prioritise safety.

I had this conversation with my mum a few months/weeks back. She kept saying that I don't need to worry about her. I kept telling her it wasn't her I was worried about. Her life is hers to do what she likes with. It's the other innocent road users I'm bothered about.

Really disagree with two of Poly's points below:

I’m not overly keen on consigning active 80 year olds to the scrap heap either.

Nonsense. You don't consign someone to the scrapheap by taking away their car. You may however consign someone else to the scrap heap by not doing so.

If they are sound mind then its not really your decision to make. Imagine if you got complacent riding your bike had a big crash and your mother called you up and said – “you need to stop riding bikes, you have responsibilities now”. That’s the sort of reaction you should expect.

Utter bollox. Sorry, this sort of attitude really pisses me off. It is his duty to get involved in this.
Stupid false equivalence of driving a car with ~ 2MJ of energy to destroy others versus a bike with 10KJ....

It may be that eyesight / cataract is the main problem here - and this can be resolved reasonably cheaply with surgery. However, it only delays the inevitable.

Over the age of 70 do you not need the support of your doctor to continue driving (to renew the licence at least) ?

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/travel-hobbies/driving/

For my father there was dementia associated with his decline. We took the car keys off him after his GP was horrified that he had driven to the GP surgery.

It might be worth seeing how often they use their car and how much taxis would cost for those journeys. I did this recently and was very surprised that it's close to being cost-neutral. You give up some convenience, of course, but that's potentially offset by increases in safety if they're a danger when driving. But of course it has to be their decision. Unless you are offering taxi services for every trip, I don't think you can dictate terms.

Many elderly people value their freedoms and social life more than their longevity, which is fair enough. If the choice is between taking a (personal*) risk and going out vs running the clock out at home in front of daytime TV, then I can see how taking a small risk is attractive.

*Perhaps they also need to consider the risk to other people, though.

Try steering them to the idea of a Tesla with collision detection (maybe that is only in autopilot mode):

Assistance is still only assistance. It might save you *most* of the time, but I still don't want unsafe drivers on the road.

My mum made the choice for herself as the car just sat on the drive for months on end. In effect her health problems stopped her from driving before she gout too bad. She had a friend drive her to the supermarket every week. Selling the car was a big step though - acknowledging she was not going to get better.

My dad still drives (90+). He was going to give up this year as his glasses weren't working - optician told him he had cataracts, he's had them done and his eyesight is good again. When the time comes he accepts he'll be in taxis or walking - he walks 2 miles to the cafe every day as it is.

I have a neighbour who drives at age 93. He can hardly walk and has visible shakes. Frightening.

I followed an old boy out of Waitrose a couple of years back - 2 walking sticks, knees wobbling like crazy legs crane.

Heading toward the carpark i thought 'surely he cant have driven here' i was even more shocked when he stopped next to a brand new Bentley Mulsanne parked in a disabled space and climbed into the drivers seat.

My wifes Grandad carried on driving into his late 80s, despite several incidents where he'd hit the wrong pedal and smashed into things, including taking out several neighbours garden walls.

they’re very active.

Maybe pursue this angle? If they're "very active" then they don't need to be in a car.

neither of which he liked the idea of.

This could be another string to pull. If he's scared of roads that are 'a bit bendy' or 'a bit wide' then it sounds like he kinda knows himself that he shouldn't be driving. He hospitalised your mum, how will he feel next time when he's not that lucky?

the monthly cost of the car in terms of insurance, fuel, maintenance would buy him lots of taxi journeys

Also, this. Spin it as not a loss of freedom but rather taking the luxury of a chauffeur. You've retired, enjoy it, have someone else drive you about!

If they're just doing odd local trips - and I can but assume that they aren't regularly driving to the south of France - then a taxi might well be more cost-effective. Pulling some figures out of the air: Say they spend five grand on a replacement motor, financed over three years (and they likely don't need to finance it anyway) - £140/month. Insurance, say a grand annually after that sort of shunt (and spiralling) - £80/month. Fuel, what, 15p/mile? Back when I had a Mondeo I "did the math" after replacing tyres and that was costing me 10p/mile in rubber. Plus tax, MOT, servicing...

A taxi is, what, £1/mile, £1.50? Let's offset that against fuel and tyres and say £1, it makes the sums easier. If they're paying more per month in pounds to own and run a car than they're covering in miles - so 220 miles in my hypothetical scenario above - then they're better off in a taxi.

And yes, I've plucked numbers out of my arse here. But I've considered it myself. I have a Personal Contract Hire care that I'm paying a lot more than that on. At the time I was doing a lot of miles; today working from home during a pandemic, not so much. Tesco is walking distance, it's probably quicker to walk than to drive. And the nearest taxi rank is closer. I'm essentially paying a fortune for the convenience of "now" rather than "in five minutes."

We had a similar concerns with my Dads driving and we had the family conversation many times but Dad being stubborn would not accept it was time. I stopped my Young Daughter from being taken as a passenger after she causally mentioned about Grandad driving onto the pavement!

This issue was solved soon after when Dad crashed into a neighbours fence and then into the front of a different Neighbours house. Dad had stopped outside his house to reverse into their drive (auto box) but clearly did not select the correct gear, moving forward he must have pressed the accelerator in panic and took out a fence opposite and eventually came to rest through another Neighbours front garden and came to rest against their brickwork. Fortunately no one was injured.

The Police subsequently arrived and my Dad still in a state of shock willingly gave his licence to the Police saying "you had better take this" not realising that this was surrendering and effectively cancelling his driving license. A letter was received later from the DVLA confirming this.

Although , I wish we had stopped Dad this before this accident because if someone had been injured I would have felt terrible about not stopping him driving sooner. Although their Neighbours were all very good about the damage which the Insurance covered.

The potential harm to others Should be a big part of any discussion. There will be alot of news stories involving elderly drivers killing themselves and others in the process.
Age and various other health issues should trigger reassessment of driving ability but as driving is a human right it’s going to take a politician with a death wish to change anything which puts an unfair burden on family and medics.

We should all think about where we live and whether we can get about without a car when the massacre that is old age comes calling.

To the OP if your dad is over 70 has he actually applied to renew his license?

Unless he renews it he is automatically disqualified from driving and also driving uninsured.

If your dad isn’t fit to drive and won’t surrender his license it may be worth letting his GP know that his fitness to drive is very much in question - in the interests of keeping both your parents safe as well as other road users.

Also he “didn’t want to be a burden” on the neighbours in spite of the fact that they basically lived in each others houses – the type of neighbours who were basically family, they’d lived next door to each other for decades.

It was a bit of an eye-opener on how bad a car-dependent society can be in terms of trying to live outside it after decades of 100% car usage.

This is my mother, except, she doesn't drive.

She'll bemoan her lot to me daily about the reduced bus service or about how she can't just "pop" to the doctors. I'm like "wow, if only you had a son with a car..." For years she's told me that she doesn't want to be a burden on me but I see now there's more to it than that; she doesn't want to give in, to succumb to being infirm. If she gets a taxi, she's doing it on her terms, she's still independent.

Farm stock, my mum. Indestructible old lady, stubborn as hell.

We had become increasingly concerned about my father-in-laws driving a few years back. He's always been a stereotypical elderly driver (flat cap, Honda civic with a tartan rug in the back), generally doddery and with little situational awareness. He's had a bunch of minor shunts over the years; I think the only panel on his car which hadn't been replaced was the roof.

He had two accidents in the space of a few days. He rear-ended a police car at traffic lights (minor damage to the front of his car) and then reversed into a Transit van a couple of days later. His insurance at renewal was about £1500. Things came to a head when he went shopping and couldn't remember where he'd parked his car or how he actually got home. We found his car, but convinced him to surrender the license by pointing out how much insurance, servicing, petrol was costing him. He could get a taxi for his twice weekly shopping trips and still save a pile of cash. He agreed to sell the car, but now Alzheimer's has properly taken hold and he sometimes forgets that he doesn't have it any more and wonders where it has gone.

Thinking back, I think it is down to pure luck that he didn't have a more serious accident and I wish we'd taken his car away earlier.

To the OP if your dad is over 70 has he actually applied to renew his license?

He's 78, so I hope so...In fact he must have, as about 6(?) years ago he had a minor fit and he rang the DVLA to temporarily surrender it whilst the cause was investigated. I'd imagine that would have been an interesting conversation if he hadn't had one to surrender...

Maybe pursue this angle? If they’re “very active” then they don’t need to be in a car.

By active I mean they often go for days-out, rather then being hill-walking types. My mum's idea of 'a good walk' is a couple of laps of the park in town.

I remember my dad trying to have this conversation with his father twenty years ago. He had just bought a 3.5L V8 Rover SD1 which was much too big and quick for someone who was used to an old 1.3 Alegro.

I'd respectfully suggest that that was considerably longer than 20 years ago. The Rover 3500 was discontinued in the mid-80s.

The automatic Mondeo he got next was worse as he braked sharply every time he though he needed to change gear, never got the hang of that missing pedal.
That conversation didn’t go well.

To be fair, going from a manual to an automatic for the first time takes some getting used to. The first one I ever had, I ended up tucking my left foot under the seat after nearly concussing myself on the steering wheel. Quite why anyone ever thought that having a brake pedal the width of a regular brake and clutch pedal combined, I have no idea.

I’d respectfully suggest that that was considerably longer than 20 years ago. The Rover 3500 was discontinued in the mid-80s.

It wasn't new.
He saw a Vanden Plas for sale and bought it on a bit of a whim, although TBF the Alegro was on its last legs.

OP - I know someone who had to have this chat with an old fella who was a friend. He used the cost angle as the carrot rather than the 'you could hurt someone' which felt like a stick.

The cost of a years insurance, tax, fuel, maintenance were higher than what he'd spend on taxis to do the weekly shop and the other journeys. Plus the bonus of not having to bother with the admin etc.

@thegeneralist

Nonsense. You don’t consign someone to the scrapheap by taking away their car. You may however consign someone else to the scrap heap by not doing so.

well IHN knows his parents situation better than we will. If they are in a rural area 2 miles from the once a day bus stop with no taxis around, removing their mobility might be not far off consigning them to the scrap heap and the point of my post if you bother to read it is that simplying 'taking away the keys/license' is not the solution - it needs understanding in the wider context of how they can retain an active life. That might mean moving house - which is a really traumatic thing for a lot of 80 year olds. Not saying they shouldn't consider it, but be careful that we aren't effectively saying, "well their 80, they don't need to drive anyway".

Utter bollox. Sorry, this sort of attitude really pisses me off. It is his duty to get involved in this.
Stupid false equivalence of driving a car with ~ 2MJ of energy to destroy others versus a bike with 10KJ….

I suggest you get down off your high horse and apply a little comprehension to what I wrote. I didn't compare the energies or risks involved. The analogy is that you have no more right to tell your mentally competent 80-year-old mother what to do than she has to dictate how you behave. The OP's post, and for that matter most of the thread seems to presume that adult children have some sort of right to dictate how their parents act. They don't (unless there is some sort of mental capacity issue). IF there is a real concern that someone does not meet the fitness to drive requirements set by the state there are mechanisms to deal with it, otherwise its tantamount to controlling behaviour by the children and frankly probably does far more risk of making the elderly feel tossed on the scrapheap than the state revoking the license.

We should all think about where we live and whether we can get about without a car when the massacre that is old age comes calling.

This +100, we're planning on being car free come retirement/70yo & hope to be living somewhere with most facilities within walking or cycling distance.

@poly the governments mechanisms for getting drivers who are no longer capable through old age or I'll health are woefully inadequate & it does often fall on family members to do the best for their family and safety of the general public

I suggest you get down off your high horse

To be fair, I think each of your horses are of similar proportions.

Maybe it's approaching the time they need to start thinking about maybe getting ebikes?

[Runs away]

It might be worth seeing how often they use their car and how much taxis would cost for those journeys.

This is the conversation we are having at the moment, my mm has glaucoma and is expecting to lose her licence come the next eye test. But she is actually the one talking about taxis - its maybe one weekly shop and a trip to my sisters once a week - it would probably be cheaper to Uber it once you add in cost of car/insurance/petrol etc.

It was a trickier conversation with my 92 year old uncle, though to be fair he's stone deaf so that didn't help (and he'd just been for his first flying lesson too!). In the end we had to point out reversing into cars to get out of spaces wasn't really an option.

TBF the Alegro was on its last legs.

It was a new one, then?

Really difficult conversation. We have opted for downsize first with a view to giving up but like others have said..it is their lifeline. Giving up their independence is never going to be easy.

Soz Poly for ranting rather than trying to write my argument. I think my 2 points are:

People should generally be allowed to do whatever they want in life until such point as it impact others. If the [potential] impact on those others is bigger than the impact on the person then that should take precedence.

The old person in this scenario is generally not best placed to make a correct and objective decision to weigh up the benefits to them of driving versus the risk to the rest of the population. As part of the whole family/community/population thing, I think that children do have an obligation to help in these circumstances and make a decision that is best for the population as a whole.

All IMHO of course.

My Dad had a stroke and his perception, spatial awareness and reactions are totally scrambled, yet he still managed to pass a driving test and is allowed to drive!

However until he has some kind of significant near miss (there's been a few OMG moments) I don't feel its serious enough to withdraw the freedom it gives them. Feels like I'm in a similar situation to what the OP was in before the accident.

I went through this with my Dad and it was very much emotional rather than logical.

He already had people in place to help with shopping or give lifts, an arrangement with someone who would take him on occasional longer journeys and whose company he enjoyed. And he’d always disliked driving, recognised he wasn’t great at it and had a habit of jumping into the passenger seat at any opportunity. To the extent he had always made sure he had an “any driver” policy. Cost effect was negligible. He did live in a house from which you need a car to get just about anywhere though.

So you’d think he’d be the easiest person to sort this out with, but despite all this, in his mind it still came down to his freedom and taking that away. It started off with a sort of loose agreement he wouldn’t drive, alongside which I quietly either was responsible for his inability to find the keys or miraculously found the battery to be flat.

Along the way, gobsmackingly his brother suggested we buy him a Land Rover Discovery, because it’s “safer”. I was appalled and pointed out in pretty strong terms that if we were worried about him crashing a lump of steel into something/one, then to double the size and worsen the handling of said lump of steel would be a spectacularly silly thing to do. This seemed to open their eyes to the idea that the rest of us considered our responsibility to be more to others on the road rather than to our own safety, and perversely probably helped the debate in the right direction.

Anyway, you may be in for a difficult conversation and I don’t envy you. But perhaps the illustration that his offspring is a squishy cyclist, and that that’s what it’s all about, might help.

@thegeneralist - I almost agree with you, right up until this part "...and make a decision that is best for the population as a whole."

That's not the role of adult children, that's the role of the state (DVLA, the GP, the medical committee at the DVLA etc). I do think adult children have an important role to play in helping ensure people understand the options and indeed are being honest about the risk / quality of the driving. But making the decisions for other people is going too far.

Here some reasons why:

- some adult children are idiots. They would rather not risk increasing their personal burden by stopping mummy/daddy driving even if it puts others at risk.
- some adult children are controlling idiots. They would like mum/dad to stop driving as part of a (possibly subconscious) attempt to control their parent, possibly to move them out there current house.
- sometimes the child will be wrong; well-meaning but wrong; what's the "right of appeal".
- if the elderly have no children - who is responsible for making this intervention; the state will cope far better if the same rules/expectations apply to all.
- I really think there should be some onus on GPs or some other professional to be making this assessment. If in the back of their mind they have "if they were really awful their kids would have interevened" they have an inherent bias that most people applying for a license (or at least with families) are fit to renew it.
- if some elderly people expect the children to make this intervention - are they driving round half-blind because "I'm sure my son would have stopped me if it was bad"
- unless all siblings share the same view (and any burden that comes from it) there can be conflict within families.

I have reported people for being medically unfit to drive to the DVLA anonymous service. Whilst I don't know exactly what happened after those reports my inclination is contrary to what Dickyboy says the systems do seem to work. Obviously, though it does require the medical professionals involved in the assessment to be sufficiently impartial and willing to make hard decisions. I notice the Glasgow Bin Lorry case is back in the courts/press again - and the statement I read this morning was a little surprising - the working assumption seemed to be that drivers with their "freedom" (or livelihood) at stake would be 100% honest/forthcoming...

But perhaps the illustration that his offspring is a squishy cyclist, and that that’s what it’s all about, might help.

I'm not going to lie, that card will be played if necessary.

I do think adult children have an important role to play in helping ensure people understand the options and indeed are being honest about the risk / quality of the driving. But making the decisions for other people is going too far.

I'm asking for advice on the former, not the latter. And FWIW, you currently have the tallest horse.

My father continued to drive beyong the point where he shouldn't have. The way I finally got him to stop was when he had a dizzy/fainting episode. I colluded with his doctor to get the doctor to tell him he musn't drive until we got to the bottom of the dizzy spell - which we never did. If you can get a doctor involved it will help. Most people will accept medical advice where they might the reject the advice of 'meddling kids'.

The extreme reluctance to quit driving is partly bloody minded independence but it is also an inability to comprehend how life could go on without being able to drive. You need to help here. To be fair there are many problems an older person may have that make it difficult to adapt to a life without a vehicle. How do you get on-line shopping without being a competent internet user? How to you phone a taxi if you are deaf? How do you phone for a txai home if you can't work a mobile phone properly? How do you walk the mile and back to the nearest bus stop if you can't walk two miles etc. If you are going to sit down and have a chat with an elderly relative it will help to have thought through he answers to these very real problems in advance.

Sadly, this may mean that you suddenly have to get much more involved in helping them out on a regular basis.

Good luck.

I've been having this battle with my dad for the last few years and it's a tough one, it's also looming for my mum.

It took a lot of gentle persuasion to get him to even admit he was 'slowing down' but the tipping point was him being diagnosed with cancer and deciding to sell his car. He was still adamant he would drive my mum's car when he needed to but as he couldn't physically get behind the wheel of it (Hyundai I10, he was very obese) he never did. Things have changed though since mum bought a new car, a Nissan Note. Ever since it arrived he has been banging on about driving again but by then he needed two cataracts replacing so he didn't try. He's had one replaced now so his eyesight is reasonable (but nowhere near driving standard) but he has also gone downhill and has very poor coordination, constantly dropping things and regularly stands on the dog. He has to use a magnifying glass to read the newspaper and his reactions are woeful. Cue my surprise when a neighbour told me he had taken mum's car to the local tyre shop last week to get a puncture repaired, they mentioned it as his driving was terrible and he was apparently doing the whole wandering between the lines thing. I brought it up with him and he instantly went on the defensive, saying he's just not used to the car and that the doctor and optician had said he's fine to drive again. Mum isn't happy about him driving but she's powerless to stop him in reality.
Mum's driving is also causing me concern. She has been unwell for the last 25 years but has been very aware of when she's not up to driving and has only driven when needed for years. I have noticed though that her car is picking up a few dents and scrapes recently, the usual car park/parking type. I've brought them up when talking to her (she's much more open to talking about this stuff with me than dad is) and she claims the two big marks were done by someone else while she was in the shops and the small dent she has no idea about. Hard one to deal with as if mum stops driving (she did for a while when a previous car started to pick up dents and marks quickly, all down to her thyroid medication needing altering) then that could force dad to drive more. It's strange as dad has been happy using buses for the last year or so, he's just suddenly got the urge to drive again. Both of them are in a bad way health-wise currently so it may not be long before intervention is required to keep them and others safe.

That’s not the role of adult children, that’s the role of the state (DVLA, the GP, the medical committee at the DVLA etc).

I've tried this route with dad, having a chat with the GP who is a family friend, and reporting him to the DVLA. The GP refused to get involved as if he is a part of one person losing their license then all the other OAP's that he sees will avoid him so as to keep theirs. The DVLA just sent out a self-certification form for dad to sign, nothing more. Once you have a driving license it seems everyone is scared to take it away regardless of whether you are fit to drive or not.

OP - good luck as it's a proper minefield to navigate. WE all like to think that when the time comes we will be sensible and surrender our license when the time comes but but a lot of us will fight to keep it when we do reach that stage.

The GP refused to get involved as if he is a part of one person losing their license then all the other OAP’s that he sees will avoid him so as to keep theirs

That is abhorrent.

( cue IHN having to get his tape measure out again.... 😁)

I’m asking for advice on the former, not the latter.

Good - that wasn't clear from the wording of your OP.

And FWIW, you currently have the tallest horse.

The advantage of which is that I can see that most of the really shocking driving is not from the oldies! Presumably, insurers come to the same conclusions or covering folk in their 80's / 90's would be really hard.

Mum isn’t happy about him driving but she’s powerless to stop him in reality.

Is he insured?

The GP refused to get involved as if he is a part of one person losing their license then all the other OAP’s that he sees will avoid him so as to keep theirs.

How would they know?

@IHN
What car were they in when they crashed? If they're still adamant that they "need" a car, it might be worth investigating the option of a 10yr old thing which is more basic than a newer car.

A lot of new cars come with a lot of electronic assistance/gadgetry which confuses older people. My Mum has just got a S/H (2yr old) hybrid and most of the stuff in there is baffling to her. She gave my sister and her 2 small kids a lift somewhere recently and my sister was horrified at how shit my Mum's driving was. A lot of it was "caused" by her trying to use the various features on the car, not being used to it, not understanding it and being distracted by the various alerts it was giving her.

I drove a brand new DS7 SUV thing the other day and that was confusing enough to me and I'm used to a wide variety of cars.

An older car generally has push buttons, not touchscreens plus less of the distracting crap. Might be worth considering plus it'll be a lot cheaper to buy and possibly insure.

Mum isn’t happy about him driving but she’s powerless to stop him in reality.

Is he insured?

He arranges and pays for the insurance. They can only afford it with me and my sister as named drivers!

The GP refused to get involved as if he is a part of one person losing their license then all the other OAP’s that he sees will avoid him so as to keep theirs.

How would they know?

Never underestimate the power of the OAP gossip network in a rural location. Plus the process is the GP informs the DVLA, DVLA write to the license holder stating that their GP has flagged up a medical issue that prevents them from driving! Ridiculous system.

My dad had lots od TIAs (mini strokes), he once drove to the doctors to tell them he'd had a stroke (despite him living with us & me working from home) and got rushed to hospital, the only times the medical professions had anything to do with his driving it was to ask me to come and pick up his vehicle, not once did they intervene or report his driving to the dvla, in the end we managed to get his car declared as uneconomic to repair. He didn't need to drive, he lived with us had plenty of money for taxis and used a mobility scooter for local trips. Poly may not think it was my place to stop him driving but if the medical professionals weren't going to do it then who else is going to step in before a more serious accident happened?

It'll be interesting if I ever need to have this conversation with my dad.
I assume he'll know when the game is up of his own accord.

He's 80 next year, but is still an IAM motorbike instructor (owns a couple of 1000+cc sports bikes) and regularly does track days on those and occasionally in his hot hatch 😆

I guess his motorbike mates will be honest with him if he starts to get iffy.

My Dad's also had lots of TIAs. He has had cancer and a heart attack and gets confused. He's just bought a new-to-him Jaguar. It was in London and he lives in South Wales and was going to go to pick it up. Luckily my mum convinced him to get it delivered. He's still going to drive it locally though and nothing will stop him. It sounds like he's not alone. I'm really not sure what can be done but something needs to be.

The solution is regular retesting. For everyone.

My parents are coming round to the idea they need to stop. Mum does all the driving now anyway, and she doesn't enjoy it. They get the bus to local towns once or twice a week, have got taxis to medical appointments when necessary, but reluctant to give up the final freedom to go and do a big shop as and when.

I work a 4 day week to fit in around kids, now the kids are older it's increasingly to take my parents out somewhere so they get a change of scene. If we don't want people to drive when they are unable to so, then more regular buses and day trips are really needed to keep them occupied, or it becomes a rapid downward spiral.

They can only afford it with me and my sister as named drivers!

There's an obvious answer there, then.

Never underestimate the power of the OAP gossip network in a rural location.

Is this really such a risk that a GP would be scared to give a diagnosis?

https://www.ombudsman.org.uk/publications/how-raise-concerns-or-complaints-about-gp-practice

The solution is regular retesting. For everyone.

It is but it would be political suicide to even suggest it, let alone implement it. Ever since I did my 7.5t test (C1) where they presume you can already drive but assess whether you can handle a larger, heavier vehicle safely I've thought the system should work like this:

Pass your standard driving test.
5 years later you have an assessment to see if you are still safe behind the wheel. This is not the same as a driving test!
Then every 10 years you have the same.
You get 3 chances at the assessments, fail 3x and you lose your license and have to do a retest to get it back.

A driving license needs to be accepted for what it is, a privilege to have not a right.

There’s an obvious answer there, then.

He just adds us, we don't get involved in it at all so there's no way to stop it. It does come in handy though for talking my mum to her regular hospital checks. She's a heavy smoker and neither me or my sister allow smoking in our cars so we take hers for those trips.

Is this really such a risk that a GP would be scared to give a diagnosis?

It is when you are a co-owner of a successful GP practice in a predominately elderly area, easy to lose a lot of patients and therefore your business. They don't fail to give a diagnosis, they just leave the reporting to the DVLA to the patient after suggesting to them to do so. I don't agree with it at all but that's what happens.

He just adds us, we don’t get involved in it at all so there’s no way to stop it.

There really is. Just phone up the insurance company and report it.

My father, 77, has given up driving this year. I think it's been brought on by Covid, having not driven or done anything for 18 months he started venturing out again and got a bit freaked out by it and has decided not to drive anymore. I think he'd probably be fine for a few more years (has all his marbles etc), just needs a bit of practice to get used to it again. My mother stopped driving a few years ago, so neither now drive; however they live in centre of town, so not such a big problem..

Reading this thread is quite interesting and basically shows society for what it seems to be coming more every day, incredible selfish. Folk continuing to do something that causes a greater risk/harm to others and don't GAS - Brexit Britain in a nutshell.

FWIW my Dad realised himself that he wasn't really fit to drive in his late 70's, he never surrendered his licence, just stopped driving - my folks lived in the country, and a car is essential really. Mum drove, so it was fine.

Move forward a decade and Dad passed away a few years ago and we're in their place now and Mum is next door. She still drives (early 80's) and is totally capable, but doesn't drive at night (along with pretty much all her friends) and when she replaced her car 4 years ago I did persuade her to drop down a size (Aygo rather than Yaris).

I'm pretty sure she'll go the same way as Dad but we'll organise a taxi account for her - as rural it's not like we can just 'call a taxi' and there's loads available.

Following with interest as I see this conversation coming up with my mum and dad. Its been 18+ months since I've been driven by my dad and it was his sheer aggression behind the wheel that worried me.

I've done my IAM Advanced Driver assessment and remain a member, so I suggested my folks did IAM Mature Drive Assessments ( https://www.iamroadsmart.com/courses/mature-driver-review). That went down like a fart in a lift with my dad; he doesn't take criticism or feedback well, typical Scottish wee man mentality.

I wish they'd planned ahead instead of moving house about 5 years ago to well off the nearest bus route and shops (>1-mile walk with a hill). I jest about it now, but Mrs a11y and me are in our early-40s and a few years ago moved onto a main road through the village with all the essentials <5min walk away: Co-op, post office, backstreet car mechanic, a proper butchers, multiple takeaways, a pharmacy, hairdressers, bookies, and pub. On main bus route direct to nearest hospital and two nearest cities. No plans to move house ever again.

This time it was your parents and their car. Next time, it could be someone else. This happened near us last year.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-53269692

The driver died weeks before facing trial. All very sad.

We went through this about 18 months ago with my parents.
My dad drive into a gate once repaired , shortly after my mum drove into someone’s garden which resulted in the car being a write off.
At that point they did see sense and both gave up driving.
We now have “Dial a ride “ in place for both of them and it may be that your local council offers a similar service or taxi vouchers for the elderly.
My dad soon realised they were no worse off by using taxis and by using home shopping services .

Went through it with FIL. MIL had to stop driving after a stroke. FIL's driving was generally poor, but he bought a new Prius, and the number of dents it picked up were shocking. All low speed parking issues, despite sensors and cameras. He had COPD which in the end was lung cancer (heavy smoker) and unable to drive for a while due to being so poorly. He got better then was going out in the car with the oxygen tank attached to him - insurance issue- he didn't tell them. We had the issue of one of the daughter's encouraging him to drive, and the rest of us saying no, you can't with oxygen. His illness progressed which meant he couldn't get to the car, which was a blessing as he wasn't far off causing a serious accident.

After his death, we found loads of invoices from 'chips away' - he was a regular customer !

There really is. Just phone up the insurance company and report it.

Like I said above, it has come in handy rather than just driving mum's car on 3rd party only via my insurance. For the sake of family harmony we're working on getting dad to stop driving on his own, then we'll get him off the insurance.

I just sold my mums car for her today - dealers are desperate for cars and I got a lot more than I expected!!

She only started driving a 15 years ago when dad got Parkinsons, so she never really enjoyed it. Lockdown and moving to a new area meant she lost confidence. Now she lives in my village, which has good bus and train links on top of my taxi service.