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Yes, of course. But this could be rolled into some sort of directory like it is for surfing. If I want to go surfing I can find beaches that say ‘good for beginners’ or ‘expert only’ or something, and it will list the possible hazards under what conditions. If there are hazards listed then I, as a beginner, will steer clear.
The problem is that 'possible hazards under different conditions', and that's the dynamic risk assessment that's hard to quantify and write down. UK Rivers Guidebook is good for splitting stuff down, they separate by river grade and have fairly comprehensive descriptions of rivers and sections, but other than the Touring sections, they're mainly aimed at whitewater paddling, not necessarily stuff you'd want to be doing in an inflatable.
It's nigh-on impossible to quantify what hazards under what conditions because they can vary so much and they're subjective: there's loose gauge definitions of low/medium/high etc but the calibration is often variable - "Local's low" might feel like medium or high to everyone else - I know locally runs that are still good fun and perfectly nice when they're listed at 'scrape' on the gauges.
I didn’t find any such sites for paddling.
Ukriversguideb9ok was an excellent site set up by Mark many years ago to provide info about river paddling in the UK.
Since the production of multiple half decent guidebooks in the last decades it has become less noteworthy, but at the time it was world beating.
I have a normal sit in kayak that I take on the canal, but I’m often eyeing up the local river. Unfortunately there are regular weirs. I understand the main danger of them regarding the boil point and being unable to escape. But what other dangers are there. Are they doable in good conditions, or is it always best to go round them. How close can you get before you have to commit? What about fish passes? They look about kayak width…
I would suggest joining a local club, go out for some paddles and you can learn in reasonable safety.
A good club Sat/Sun paddle will be led, you will get out and look at features, hazards identified and line to aim for, somebody will normally demonstrate. There will be people on the bank with throw lines to rescue at specific points. Local knowledge is invaluable. UKRGB has information on popular rivers which can be useful.
If they do any training days go along, even just volunteering to be rescued you will learn a lot!
Running rivers without stopping is an amazing feeling, but even with experienced paddlers accidents happen.
I have often wandered what the purpose of many of these weirs is? Sure, a hundred years ago many were built to provide water to local industry, however much of this has long gone. So, do these weirs serve any purpose?
Our local river has a small weir that was to supply water to a mill, which closed 50 years ago, yet the weir is still there.
I have watched some interesting clips on t'internet about the removal of redundant hydro electric dams in USA in order to allow wildlife to prosper.
Would this be a sensible thing to do to some redundant weirs here?
(Not meaning that to be a knee jerk reaction to last weeks events, just a general observation from an environmental point of view, and remembering my parents going nuts at me when we used to play down by the old weir...)
MCTD:
Faux-by-four?
🙂 thats much better...
I have often wandered what the purpose of many of these weirs is?
You're quite right to question many of them.
There's quite a movement elsewhere in the world to open up rivers again without these artificial barriers. Particularly when the justification for them was many decades ago, and may not be needed or stand up these days.
Sad but very interesting thread. Seems like there is a need for some kind of sports x physics x geography lesson to be taught at schools. Would be more interesting than the standard river bend geography forced on kids right now.
I have often wandered what the purpose of many of these weirs is
The Haverfordwest weir conveys a gas main across the river but aside from that, doesn't serve a hydrological purpose apart from maintaining upstream levels for an aesthetic reason.
Truly awful tragedy.
Those videos have given me the fear.
Having watched people sup all summer long at Prestwick and Shewlaton woods, I was desperate to give it a go. It took a while to be able to get on an instructor led introduction session. It was cancelled twice due to weather conditions. The occasion we did actually get to do it, they moved us from Maidens to the River Doon in Ayr that morning, again because of the weather outlook.
Haven't actually splurged on any equipment, we all agreed we'd rather take a few more lessons and hire decent boards, wetsuits, buoyancy aids etc. It's definitely 'good' to have a reminder of the dangers though.
People seem to like them as some kind of industrial heritage thing. They restored one in Ludlow a while back.
Would this be a sensible thing to do to some redundant weirs here?
It would, and in some cases is being done. There's a project on the Dee (N Wales) to fully or partially remove some weirs, and on the Ribble near Preston.
The Ribble weir was built in the 1970s to measure the flow in the river and is now redundant. They could calculate, from the depth of water on the lip, how much was flowing. I'm guessing there's another way to do it now.
In fact, if you Google 'weir removal uk' there's lots of info. It seems it's often driven by helping fish migration, not avoiding people drowning.
2 metre waves? I don’t believe you…
What don't you believe? I've been there and seen it for myself - waves taller than I am (I'm 1.83m tall if you want to be pedantic) on more than one occasion too.
When the wind conditions align with the shape of the valley in the top half of the loch you can get 10 mile fetch, and its really deep there so no restriction to the formation of waves so with sustained 50 mph winds you will get significant wave heights of >2m.
Now its probably more likely that on any particular day the fetch is 3-5 miles because of the shape of the loch, the islands and the prevailing wind. To get significant wave heights of 2m with a 5 mi fetch you need a sustained 60mph wind (over deep water) which is probably about the worst it gets except in truly exceptional conditions. BUT that's only for the significant wave height - which is a statistical average of the biggest 1/3rd of waves - like all averages there are many waves which are bigger. The stats mean you can expect waves double that height occasionally and 1:100 waves that are 1.67x it. So same situation only needs about a 40mph ish wind to generate a 2m about every 6 minutes. And even a 3mile fetch over shallower water (so south of the islands), 45mph will get you very occasional 2m waves. Thats all without considering any of the weird stuff that goes on as waves get forced round headlands or between islands.
I'm not saying people would go supping or kayaking in a F8 but the loch is very much not a flat pond.
Hi Poly.
I didn't believe you can get 2m waves on a piece of water that big. 2m is immense IMHO.
BTW, I'm totally in agreement that the Loch can be choppy and very dangerous. I'm just in awe of the notion that you can get overhead waves on LL.
Having said all of which, you've put some interesting, detailed numbers there to show it is something you clearly know a lot about, so I've now moved my position to slightly sceptical amazement 🙂
So, do these weirs serve any purpose?
Sad to say, but I think the biggest purpose they serve nowadays is to discourage kayakers and other tiny craft. The fact is there are stacks of rivers in the UK that are just pancake flat slogs interspersed with weir portage. If they removed the weirs then the number of amazing grade 2 classics in the UK would increase a hundredfold.
Which of course the landowners and fishermen deeply don't want, so they will generally fight it tooth and nail.
but there were extensive and active rain and flood warnings in place. the comment about an ‘out of the blue’ downpour doesn’t make any sense.
I'm in Swansea, about 60 miles along the coast, but here it had been very heavily raining for most of the previous week - my waterproof boots had been dried out twice, and our extremely regular night ride was called off. There had been plenty of flooding all around here. Saturday morning was extremely windy, as it had been for most of the week, and I got soaked through up at Afan that morning even though it was mainly blue sky. (I joked with one of my daughters that it was a perfect day for a paddle that morning. Even with her level of inexperience she could see what I meant.)
There was most definitely NOT an 'out of the blue' downpour, unless he meant the storm which had blown through for the previous week.
Late to this one, like others i've got a bit of experience both teaching kayaking and getting into bad situations through my own fault. I stopped WW paddling in 204 after being pinned and having to cut myself out my boat, as close as I could have come to dying and entirely my own fault. I'm quite qualified as well !
Weirs are evil things and the hydraulics and issues with them are myriad and not easy to explain or indeed see on first look. Most of it has been explained here. Open water is also interesting - I surfski a lot and have had some tremendous downwind runs on lochs - one on Loch Tay in 2019 when it was easily 1.5m trough to crest. Not unusual and also not predictable in some cases. It's a terrible tragedy frankly but moving water requires the utmost respect.
Firstly, the SUP incident at the weekend sounds horrendous for all involved and for the families. Let's hope that there are some sensible learning points that come out of any inquest into it.
With regard to comments above around finding "safe" places to paddle water craft, what many new people fail to fully appreciate is the amount of variables involved. If you go for a walk or a basic mountain bike ride you can see if the ground is dry and loose or perhaps wet and muddy, or whether it's flat, uphill or downhill. But this is all visible stuff and is "on the surface". With moving water, it's important to understand what might also be underneath or on the edges of the waterway you're using. We do not inherently have this knowledge and it takes time to build it up. Add in wind, cooler than expected water temperatures, other floating objects and there a lot more things to consider.
Humans are pretty well adapted to basic land activities, but we're not as natural in water. As a few have pointed out above, our usual mental image of messing about in the sea or on rivers or lakes is a sunny, still day with sunshine and relatively warm water. In the UK it may not be like that. Water is more of an alien environment and if you combine cold water shock with not knowing how certain water features occur (e.g. a riptide at a beach) then normal thinking around how to swimming to safety may not be the ideal solution.
For rivers there is a grading system that is reasonably clear as a "guide". However that is all it is, and you still have to be acutely aware that it may be different on the day you paddle. High river flows will often re-shape a rapid or bank, branches and other detritus can be trapped and become lethal. The grading system is based on the river being "bank full" so not in flood but not low. Depending on whether a river is higher or lower, that could make certain features more or less tricky and change grades considerably.
For beginners getting involved with paddle sports, I'd really recommend getting involved with a local club to learn the basics, particularly if they operate on the stretches of water you want to use in your leisure time. Even the basic knowledge about wearing bouyancy aids, what to check for when getting on/off the water would be useful.
The weir videos above just show how something relatively innocous looking can be lethal, whereas something big may be okay in the right circumstances.
There's a weir on the River Inn in Austria which has a truly evil and terrifying weir on it. It's only about 10 feet high, but the river is canalised in the run in to it, it's a highly uniform structure and the pool and banks below offer little chance to get close to a swimmer with a line. Still gives me the heebie-jeebies every time I see it.
Weirs have been used to maintain and control river levels for agriculture and to support flood prevention - the Thames weirs are there for flood management.
If that's the one on the lower Oetz, the (possibly apocryphal) story goes that it was specifically designed to kill people.
It's an anti-scour design, which puts an upright lip or set of blocks on the concrete river bed about 8-10 metres downstream that makes the recirculation much nastier, but helps reduce the damage the current after the weir does to the riverbed. If it's the one I think it is, it can (and has) swallowed a whitewater raft full of people.
@Pyro, yep, that's the one I was thinking of although I thought it was the Inn and not the Oetz (I haven't paddled over there for 15+ years so you're probably right). I have also heard the story about the raft and wouldn't be surprised.
Pyro, Straightener ( and indeed anyone else who paddled serious WW in the past)
Do you still?
If so, how long have you been doing so?
If not, why did you stop?
Sadly no longer although still have the kit for the odd paddle at the coast or a gentle river somewhere.
To some extent I drifted away from it a little, taking up biking as an alternative and doing things that were more easy to do from home and at the drop of a hat.
Biggest problem for me was living in the south-east with wife/family and the increasing challenge of getting away at weekends AND having water to paddle on. Without the flexibility/spontaneity to go and make the most of heavy rain, it becomes much less enjoyable. I carried on paddling the Thames weirs for a bit but then moved further from them.
Now I notice how non-paddle fit I am and how much I would have to train different muscles to get back to a half decent level, and then add in a load of practice to sharpen up the skills.
I still paddle, very much so. I've been boating 30-something years, started as a very small child in the 1980s. I'm not paddling whitewater to quite the same level as I have in the past, the pandemic limited activities with our club and I'm a bit out of practice, but I never pushed massively high grades anyway. I've run the odd grade 5 when I was at my peak and on form (and if it felt right on the day) but they were few and far between. I never got much enjoyment out of scaring the crap out of myself, I prefer to run good G3-4 in decent control than feel out of control on anything higher. Yes, I'm a wimp.
Pyro, Straightener ( and indeed anyone else who paddled serious WW in the past)
Do you still?
If so, how long have you been doing so?If not, why did you stop?
there are old paddlers, and there are bold paddlers...
one on Loch Tay in 2019 when it was easily 1.5m trough to crest.
Whoop! Having worked on Loch Tay for 5 years, I could believe that in places,
I often sailed in 1m waves on there.
Interesting. Can totally relate to that reasoning, and it's not what I was expecting in relation to the thread.
I've never paddled to a high standard, but have been on what I would class as scary rivers. Likewise a lot of my climbing mates did dabble in kayaking as it seemed like a good companion activity to climbing.
Almost to a man they've all given up as it was too dangerous. These are people who would solo ice climbs, or 100 routes in a day, climbed a fair bit in the Andes and all over the world, happily run it out on dodgy rock/ice above non existent belays, and yet they deemed paddling as an unjustifiable risk.
I can't recall the exact timing, but I think it was just before Knees' accident that I gave up as I just didn't have enough spare time to get and stay good, and always being the weakest person on a river is not a good place to be.
I've got an inflatable kayak and keep wanting to take the kids out, but then always end up asking myself what I'd do if he enjoyed it and took it up seriously.
Still got my kit, and would love to take it up again if we retire to the Lakes and my time/fitness pendulum swings in the other direction....
Do you still?
If so, how long have you been doing so?
Started on the sea in 1980, done slalom K1 & C1, polo, river running, surf. It was kids which stopped most of it until they got big enough to paddle too. Still paddle rivers, but most of my miles are now at sea again.
Pyro, Straightener ( and indeed anyone else who paddled serious WW in the past)
Do you still?
If so, how long have you been doing so?If not, why did you stop?
I paddled a lot on rivers until hoppy jr was born. I was doing the big N Wales runs and pushing grades, then when hoppy jr was 3 months old I had 2 friends drowned in the space of 2 days and I've barely paddled a river boat since. As a time served boater I'd lost a number of friends before but this was different because of the situation I was in and I couldn't be so selfish any more. They weren't on hard rivers and they were well inside their comfort zones. Made me realise that I was getting to a point where a small mistake might stop me coming home.
I played polo and sea boated for a while after but stopped as I did more MTB because it is far more time efficient and less reliant on good conditions.
Hoppy jr is 10 now and is starting to get interested in paddling, we've done his 1st proper moving water trip on gd 2 river and he wants to do more. I have a playboat but am thinking I might need something more sensible in the future if he's really keen.
Hoppy jr is 10 now and is starting to get interested in paddling, we’ve done his 1st proper moving water trip on gd 2 river and he wants to do more.
Interesting. Do you feel conflicted about potentially getting him hooked on something so risky?
anyone else who paddled serious WW in the past
Do you count Gr 4 in a C1 as serious? I did a couple of 4's in high water (eg, Middle Guil, Ogwen) and remember feeling nervous about them, about the same as I did climbing. Never did a 5 unless too low to count for the grade, I always felt a 5 in proper condition was too dangerous. Haven't done a 4 in the last 15 years, I didn't really decide to stop, just ended up doing something else. I now mostly paddle sea kayak and open canoe, I'd happily paddle a Gr 3.
As a middle class T5 owner who’s planning to buy a SUP, am I going to survive the summer. It’s intend for the kids (all good swimmers) to jump off in small lakes in France and Spain with BAs (think max Grasmere sized rather than Windermere) and maybe for me to go on the canals around home. No intention of using it at sea or on a river. I had an incident when I was younger were I was left to drift out to sea by a dodgy windsurf school and was put off water sports for 2O years. I’m now a decent open water swimmer and swim outside through the winter. I don’t see this having the same risks discussed in this thread other than those you associate swimming and playing in open water or am I missing something.
Interesting. Do you feel conflicted about potentially getting him hooked on something so risky?
I don't think it's that risky at the level he'd be at for a good while and if he's playboating or doing slalom or WWR (god help us) then it isn't risky anyway. If not then it's a really good way of understanding how to identify and manage risk. Its useful in real life. I'd rather he's doing that than going out bazzing round in cars or doing the lads, lads, lads booze and drugs thang.
I would consider myself a proficient paddler, but my god this thread has opened my eyes.
I’m a placid water paddler/racer so I’ve never really had to consider the dangers, to the people considering paddling but worried about the dangers, I find paddling fun even on the canal and would recommend it to anyone.
I’ve always fancied doing more whitewater, but living in Cannock it’s a decent trek to anything other than Jackfields, I’ve been down Nottingham WW course and JJ Canoeing in Llangollen but both of them are an hour+ away.
I certainly wouldn’t be going somewhere local without an expert though.
I have a paddleboard and use it in lakes, the med and my local river the Tarn , southern france . Always in the summer and we come off the water just before the weir at the bottom of my garden . All the weirs have a canoe ramp .
Looking at the pictures of the accident , there is no way I would have gone in the water with a river like that ;
doing slalom or WWR (god help us) then it isn’t risky anyway.
Slalom I'd agree is low risk, there are people all round on the bank. WWR, there's nobody on the bank and the next paddler is 1 minute away, won't have a throwline and probably won't be able stop until well past you, so a bit more risky, but there shouldn't be unknown hazards.
But apart from the fact that almost nobody does WWR any more, why 'god help us'?
But apart from the fact that almost nobody does WWR any more, why ‘god help us’?
Apart from it being fairly dead, and dull, a lad I used to paddle with used to race for GB, even then his dad spent a decent amount of time patching his boat up. You may be away from a throw line but it's generally not that hard water on the courses. We took said lad out on a chilled but big water day in N Wales and he spent it with his eyes on stalks.
Pyro, Straightener (and indeed anyone else who paddled serious WW in the past)
I was super keen in my Youth - I think we were possibly the second or third group of Brits to run the Otztal after the late Mike Jones and Birmingham Uni. If I've got my rivers right there is (or was) a massive killer weir on that river, that Mike Jones shot. When we got to the weir there was a fully grown tree just rolling over and over trapped in the stopper. We portaged, but found out later how he did it.
I've had few visits to the 'green room'* (as we used to call it) in my time. I still paddle occasionally, but my right shoulder is shagged/worn out, so I'm limited to short river trips.
As others have said you need to take care, get some coaching and join a club.
AKA 'Gods waiting room'. Happens when you're out of the boat stuck in a stopper, disorientated and panicking. Not recommended.
Do you feel conflicted about potentially getting him hooked on something so risky?
I would argue the risk of injury is greater in MTB.
Paddlesports, with some training and experience, are safe. That's why we don't have tragedies like this one regularly. And we don't have that many serious accidents compared to other adventure sports. There's a strong safety culture, much like climbing.
What is more common is people with a lack of knowledge and experience to make judgements, or accidents leading too, people finding themselves in scary water.
FWIW, even as young children mine floated down grade 1&2 water on the Tay, Spey and Dee in thier own kayaks, or paired up in old town 119 canoes.
It was, without doubt, a tragic incident and, but for this thread I would have been pretty oblivious to the hidden dangers in weirs and rivers. Living in a valley, with the temperamental River Calder at it’s base, this knowledge is what should be imparted at schools. The lure of water in summer is strong for kids.
And excuse my morbid curiosity for googling, but it does appear that our local river has claimed a poor soul.
https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/canoe-accident-death-5038293
All my kids have had a stern talking to tonight about this.
Great thread everyone.
I've been paddling WW kayaks for about 30 years on and off. Got a good skills and safety basis through BCU based training programmes then went to Uni and paddled loads for 4 years.
On and off after that, then bought an open boat when the sprogs came along and loved learning to paddle that and move it onto WW.
See 3.10 for an interesting example of a local weir. I've heard some kayakers do not run it as there is an undercut ledge which they can get caught in - the big boat ploughs right through!
It's good to chat about the dangers of water sports and the only good thing about tragedies like this is they stimulate conversations for us all to learn from.
Lots of random thoughts (some controversial) about this situation, I also bought an iSUP last summer!
The media express it as surprising that they were out in heavy rain/weather warning - this is what most WW paddlers look for to make many rivers possible therefore not a danger in itself.
Brought back thoughts of 2 other significant tragedies in the water sport world - Lyme Bay and Gairloch.
Lyme Bay led to AALA, which has had a major impact on the way that outdoor activities have been delivered to children in the UK ever since.
As a discussion point, I would like to see data (doubt it exists) as to how many lives have been saved versus how much less "fun/life enhancing experience" has been had due to this legislation. Many smaller organisations could no longer deliver adventure experiences due to the limits set by AALA. I realise this is a value based judgement but Covid has made many of us think about risk and acceptable levels of mortality within society.
Gairloch led to many interesting discussion within my family about how to stay safe when out in the canoe - some very interesting discussion here - https://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=433177#p433177
I vividly remember Garry Mackay coming onto that forum and trying to persuade the community that all kids should wear Life Jackets as opposed to Buoyancy Aids when canoeing. Folks had to gently tell him that this was not always appropriate and that we would not fully support his campaign to make this happen.
So I hope that we all learn from this sad tragedy but we don't get put off getting out there and enjoying the water in a safe and fun way. Life is a risk/benefit analysis!
Absolutely agree that it shouldn't put people (and offspring) off doing paddlesports, but you have to learn (perhaps slowly) about how different the environment can be.
When I were a lad (~15 or 16 years old) and started paddling through school and the local club, there was no internet and teaching was from the older guys in the club. Through regular pool sessions the youngsters picked up the ability to roll quite quickly and also understood the support strokes well enough, but their river skills were poor. The older contingent knew more about rivers but couldn't roll so river trips could be quite entertaining. The group of youngsters also pushed each other on to learn and improve, and skills were added quickly.
As we all got driving licences and cars, we were able to explore more (north Wales, mid Wales, some south Wales trips plus HPP) and push the grades more. Rodeo/freestyle was new, Shaun Baker was making a name for himself jumping off waterfalls and steeper rivers were being explored and paddled in shorter boats.
We went on training courses, but a lot of skills were picked up trying things out and testing stuff in relatively safe spots. Practicing swimming, throw line rescue, getting boats out from pinned positions was stuff we did to get better in case we ever needed it.
For me it gave me a much better ability to assess risk and provide that balance between normal day to day life and excitement through being challenged. For me, that's the best thing you can provide to youngsters and to do it through sport or another controlled environment is hugely important.
^ totally agree with that. Learning skills is great fun and really important. I stopped WW after I made one too many bad decisions when I was not thinking straight and wanted to add some risk in. I spent almost too long in gods waiting room ! But I’ve taken my daughter in grade 1 and 2 ish stuff to start to introduce her to it. But water and esp moving water demands utmost respect, I’ve had friends die.
Tragic human element to this story incoming...
just had the youngest member (25, known his family all my life) of our regular riding group on the phone to say he won't be coming riding with us tonight as the young girl who died in this incident was his girlfriend. He wants me to let the group know so he doesn't have to tell everyone himself. They haven't been together long, as they only got together about 6 weeks before our trip to the Pyrenees in September, but I know he had spent a lot of time with her and that they got on very well. She sounded like a really lovely person from his description. I am gutted for the lad and am left here feeling like someone has just knocked all the wind out of me. 🙁
That's sad. Condolences to all involved and affected.
< deleted, none of my business>
🙁
Soz Welshfarmer and riding buddies. ☹
Condolences again to all involved.
Condolences to your pal @Welshfarmer. I've lost friends on the river and its tough.
Pyro, Straightener ( and indeed anyone else who paddled serious WW in the past)
Do you still?
If so, how long have you been doing so?If not, why did you stop?
I've been paddling WW since I was 16 so 25 years. I've run hard rivers all over the world with a few first descents. Things definitely slowed down after I had kids 12 years ago and the core group of pals I boated with dispersed. But I'd really started getting back on my game pre covid, mainly due to finding a new group of guys to boat with, and had planned a big multi day in Nepal in 2020. Unfortunately covid restrictions and injury meant I barely paddled any WW in 2020 and the first half of this year. Getting back on it again now though!
Back in the news this morning. 4th person died, and someone arrested for gross negligence manslaughter!!
someone arrested for gross negligence manslaughter!!
Does this mean the group were on a paid guided paddle or was being run by a business?
Oh dear.
Probably best to shut this thread down now mods.
Does this mean the group were on a paid guided paddle or was being run by a business?
It was an organised group rather than a group of friends certainly. My local 'club' have an organiser and qualified instructors, but not a committee (like a conventional amateur sports club) and participants pay £5 per session. Unravel what that constitutes at your leisure.
4 lives lost. Tragic. As ever, the most important thing next is what lessons are learnt and how they implemented nationally.
Does this mean the group were on a paid guided paddle or was being run by a business?
That’s what I picked up from the initial reports, and why (sadly) I think this’ll be an event use for teaching for years to come
This is awful. I saw the news, looked at the location on Google Maps and street view. Downstream from the bridge you can barely see the horizon line. To me, the weir itself has "Deathtrap" written all over it, but I have 30 years of paddlesports experience. I fully appreciate how it could appear relatively benign to a relative beginner. Even Matt's "safe" weir from page 1 would be a very different beast with 1m depth of water hosing over it. Actual conditions on the day make massive difference.
Rescue at this point is extremely difficult and will place any rescuers in grave danger. Hats off to all involved in the events that unfolded. It is very likely that the equipment, skills and knowledge required were not instantly available and took time to arrive on the scene. The unfolding scene must have been awful, and I don't want to put the scene in my mind down in type. The instant it started, it was never going to end well.
This is another Lyme Bay moment. Heartfelt condolences to all involved. In time questions may be answered, but sadly that won't bring anyone back.
This is another Lyme Bay moment.
Legislation will be written
That’s what I picked up from the initial reports
Me too....I'm sure in the early reports of the tragedy there were condolences being sent by, what seemed like, a shop or club.
And I've been wondering if anyone was going to be held accountable - because they should be.
The fact that anyone thought it was a good idea to be on a river after the amount of rain that had fallen is rediculous.
The fact that anyone thought it was a good idea to be on a river after the amount of rain that had fallen is rediculous.
That’s what I thought initially, not knowing much about kayaking. But then, as a few others have pointed out. It’s after heavy rain that it gets fun. Which I can understand. I suppose that’s only ok if you’re doing it yourself, personal responsibility and all that. Personally, I’d stay out of the river after heavy rain due to all the shite that would be getting washed into it…
Deleted as saw up date above.
And I’ve been wondering if anyone was going to be held accountable – because they should be.
Depends on whether it was group of consenting adults out for a fun trip together or a guided trip with a paid/qualified leader in charge of safety. Police involvement would suggest the latter but I really hope that this girl is not being blamed just because she was the most qualified person on the water in a club setting.
Perhaps a rhetorical question but - Do we always need someone to blame when tragedies happen?
This is part of the issue with people getting experience on the water/on the hills etc when litigious culture says I might get sued if it all goes wrong.
I do hope as many details as possible are published so we can all learn from this.
Do we always need someone to blame when tragedies happen?
Good point.
Every person in that group had the option of not going so arguably why should someone be to blame.
But if the "leader" said that the conditions were suitable, when clearly they weren't, then maybe that changes things.
Police involvement would suggest the latter but I really hope that this girl is not being blamed just because she was the most qualified person on the water in a club setting
I presume it must have been a paid for guiding/weekend away - rather than a club/friends setting. I read somewhere that one person decided not to go out with them on that day.
Ok so I grew up in Haverfordwest but moved away after university approx 1,000,000 years ago.
So much depends on the tide at the time. The weir at that point marks the end of the tidal water .. mostly.
With a very high tide the weir gets covered by a foot or two of water in an ordinary tide at high tide there may well be a foot or two drop to the tidal water. At low tide there is a serious (5ish) drop off the weir and nobody would contemplate it on a paddle board.
My sister who is still in H'west tells me that there was serious almost monsoon like rain showers at the time and was stunned that anyone would be paddling a SUP on the Cleaddu at that time.
I know bugger all about kayaking or SUPs BTW.
It is just very sad.
Perhaps a rhetorical question but – Do we always need someone to blame when tragedies happen?
This is part of the issue with people getting experience on the water/on the hills etc when litigious culture says I might get sued if it all goes wrong.
I do hope as many details as possible are published so we can all learn from this.
As a cycle club ride leader, I've seen the debates we go through when the forecast is grim as as to whether rides should be cancelled, whether it's snow and ice or rain and storms. Not so much from a "being sued" aspect, but we don't want club members to get hurt, and we don't want our ride leaders to worry about "what if?". I've had a rider fail to unclip at a junction and smash his hip and pelvis, and that's not an hour I'd wish on anyone, in any capacity. So we cancel rides when we feel it's safer to do so, and if consenting adults then do their own thing, that's on their shoulders.
It's obviously an even bigger factor for a businesses. I understand that kayakers like rough conditions, I was a little surprised the paddle boarders would do the same.
I understand that kayakers like rough conditions
Some kayakers do. I would tend to expect though after heavy rainfall that unless its a group of advanced ww paddlers that there would be a good chance of cancelling unless you are really confident about how the river stands up to rain.
What a tragic and horrible accident. I've got 15+ years on the water, a few friends I'll not see again and many many good times here. I've been SRTA-W and WRT qualified and made a living(ish) from the river for a few years in my 20s.
The thing that sets moving water aside from other adventure sports is how dynamic the environment is - and it takes years of experience to be able to look at water and work out what is happening below the surface and exactly how dangerous a feature is. What was safe yesterday or an hour ago may not be safe now.
That’s what I thought initially, not knowing much about kayaking. But then, as a few others have pointed out. It’s after heavy rain that it gets fun.
The relationship between water level and difficulty/fun is not always a linear one. Some sections can be easy at low water, get harder as the levels come up, and then all the features wash out and it just becomes fast and flat over a certain level. Understanding where and when to paddle and where and when to go home is a really tough learning experience for so many paddlers, especially when ego, peer pressure and time comes into play.
To anyone on this thread considering getting into whitewater - it will take you places you cant imagine (or even access otherwise), with amazing people, but go safe, go humble, and go educated and experienced.
Does this mean the group were on a paid guided paddle or was being run by a business?
It doesnt matter which, if the Group had a 'Leader'.
British Canoeing have a number of discipline specific Leader qualifications.
For the group, the Leader should have a SUP Leader qualification. I dont think there is a Whitewater SUP qualification yet, as it's a pretty small group of people who do WW SUP.
Even if only a flat/moderate Leader, they should know the dangers of weirs, and have relevant safety measures in place at danger points.
If leading for money, or just a group of friends for free, if you have said I will lead this group, then you have then taken responsibility for their welfare.
The only way out of it is to say 'I'm not leading this group, we'll go as a peer group'. Which is what many people do each week outside of Club trips. There are usually one or 2 people who are less confident on the water, and need a little help getting down, but without making it formal and appointing a Leader.
It doesnt matter which, if the Group had a ‘Leader’.
+1
Even 30+ years ago, it was recognised as a theoretical risk, at least, that (totally free and voluntary) university clubs could end up being regarded as responsible for their members. Group outings were clearly described as being ‘for the convenience of like-minded individuals’ (or similar wording) and that as the group contained a mixture of skill levels, each individual was responsible for evaluating activities in light of their own skills / ability.
A very sad incident, and I have sympathy for everyone involved.
As a long-time watcher of ‘Saving Lives At Sea’, and as someone who truly values the work of the RNLI, I’ve seen so many instances of people getting into trouble in SUP’s and in kayaks, watching the video of the weir rescue just shows how quickly an afternoon’s paddle can turn into a life-threatening situation. As a non-swimmer, while I like the idea, I’m not really inclined to go out in a canoe or kayak.
Having said that, I did do once, on Llangorse lake, but I was a lot younger then.
Every person in that group had the option of not going so arguably why should someone be to blame.
If you don’t know the river and/or your not an experienced paddler, how can they be expected to make the decision? The guide makes the decision about conditions being safe or not, not the clients
Again depends on the definition of guide. BBC made it sound like a club setup so not commercial. Then it comes down to if the "guide" makes a poor decision which leads to an accident what is the response to that?
Trying not to speculate on the circumstances but if this manslaughter charge is brought I have real fears for the future of club paddling and other activities.
Another rhetoric question- does having someone to blame make the grief any easier/better?
I presume it must have been a paid for guiding/weekend away – rather than a club/friends setting. I read somewhere that one person decided not to go out with them on that day.
I think that is a common misconception. Even the group of friends setting - there can be a duty of care to others; or someone may “unofficially” have adopted the role of the leader despite any understanding that it was all “peers” and “personal responsibility”. Of course a jury might be satisfied in the end that they owed no duty of care or weren’t grossly negligent in that duty.
Trying not to speculate on the circumstances but if this manslaughter charge is brought I have real fears for the future of club paddling and other activities.
Really? I’ve never been involved with club paddling but I have with other water and land based activities and most serious clubs are well structured, well run and have processes and procedures in place to keep their members safe. It doesn’t follow that someone dies = manslaughter; it needs someone to have failed to do something they should reasonably be expected to do.
I actually think this is the sort of event that makes well run clubs stronger, safer than ad hoc arrangements or informal clubs, by forcing everyone to look again at what they do and if it would stand up to scrutiny if it all goes wrong. (E.g. the person above who cancels club runs “but if people go themselves that’s their own call” - I’ve seen that written on event cancellations - that’s a total mess. There’s no need to write that - and just encourages people to go without the one person who was able to make the sensible decision).
Another rhetoric question- does having someone to blame make the grief any easier/better?
I think people think it does, but actually a criminal trial which may or may not be successful will draw the grieving process out for years. At the end of the day it won’t bring those four people back, won’t help those involved be totally upfront about what went wrong, who took which decisions or why.
Again depends on the definition of guide. BBC made it sound like a club setup so not commercial. Then it comes down to if the “guide” makes a poor decision which leads to an accident what is the response to that?
I was pondering this. Obviously getting into speculation but anytime you do an activity with at least one other person then someone ends up as a "guide". Just following a mate down a hill on your bike and they are guiding. If it's a paid activity then that is very different but still has grey areas, eg a club where you all put a fiver in but no one gets paid.
Does speculating without any access to the most basic facts help either?
Another rhetoric question- does having someone to blame make the grief any easier/better?
I think people think it does, but actually a criminal trial which may or may not be successful will draw the grieving process out for years.
And potentially make it worse I'd it's a "not guilty" verdict maybe.
We have become so good at minimising risks in so many walks of life now, through training and legislation, that people aren't exposed to tragedies like this as often as they were 50 years ago, and maybe that rarity factor makes it easier to fall back on a "someone must be to blame and/or punished". So called compensation culture probably hasn't helped suggesting someone is always to blame* - we've lost touch with the idea that tragedies can happen despite people doing all they reasonably should have done.
*as a claims manager in the mid 90s just as ambulance chasing was becoming a thing, insurers didn't help by paying small claims for economic reasons as they weren't worth defending.
Just to stress these are my thoughts on the general grief/blame question raised, not linked to this particular case
Does speculating without any access to the most basic facts help either?
Potentially it does! If it forces someone here to take a moment of reflection and think - "oh, I had never considered that when I go riding (or paddling) with my mates that if I've done all the planning or encouraged a hesitant participant to come beyond their skillset that I might have a duty of care to them" similarly all the posts from experienced WW paddlers helped my understanding or risk (as someone who paddles occasionally, but never near weirs or any serious WW). So whilst speculation may not help understanding this particular tragedy and preventing its recurrence - discussion about the sort of things that can go wrong and who has a moral obligation to protect others may prevent/protect others.
@poly yeah that bit is fair enough but speculating on specifics is a bit off until facts are known. The arrest may well be a formality pending further investigation under corporate H&S or could well be a very obvious case of negligence however at this stage it's not helpful to anyone to speculate on this or the potential for impact in the future.
This is another Lyme Bay moment.
No it is not.
Legislation will be written
We already have legislation in place, unlike when Lyme Bay happened.
There is a duty of care that exists whether you are volunteer or paid leader/coach. This is the reality of volunteering - guess why I apply same preparation and care to my DofE trips as I do at work with a team of 15+staff leading outdoor learning daily.
This also is not about a traditional approach to risk management. In industry (And therefore how so many are trained and understand risk) is about a risk deficit approach. This seeks to reduce all risks to zero through the traditional approaches of elimination, isolation, substitution, training, ppe etc.
This approach does not work in education, recreation, health and some areas of industry and construction. Here we take a risk benefit approach - striking a balanced approach. We therefore can justify legally and morally that to paddle on a river is acceptable. As is putting someone at the bottom of the north sea to work on an oil valve. Or riding a bike on a bumpy trail. Or asking kids to batter into each other for a rugby match (etc). We have great precedent in approach, in systems and in court cases over this.
The assumption that someone will personally be to blame is also not always correct. I used to work for an organisation that had the death of a 15 year old girl on our hands. The investigation and prosecution held the organisation failings to account - and exonerated the leaders on the day as they were working within the systems and training they had been given. The organisation was fined heavily, the directors publicly held to account. In one of the very few cases of a teacher being held to account for a pupil death occurred when a teacher ignored the risk assessment, ignored a head teacher phone call to say 'don't do it', ignored their training to not do it and ignored the pupils and a colleague saying 'that looks dodgy'. Unsurprisingly they were prosecuted.
My biggest learning in risk management over 30+ years now, particularly having been up close and personal to the tragedy of my previous employer, and now writing policy around this on a national level, is that to learn from the events is more important than the blame. The press, and we discussing on here, both miss the nuance and detail of the HSE report, and tend to immediately go for the blame. We should be waiting for the full details from HSE/AALS/Police and looking to learn from it.
We take on risks - it is daily life. What we need to do is find that balance, and that includes learning from everyones past experience, but even then we would not want (And could not have) all risks removed from life.
The arrest may well be a formality pending further investigation under corporate H&S or could well be a very obvious case of negligence however at this stage it’s not helpful to anyone to speculate on this or the potential for impact in the future.
This is true. I was cautioned after an accident MTB'ing when a friend looked like they may not make it.
Perhaps a rhetorical question but – Do we always need someone to blame when tragedies happen?
This is part of the issue with people getting experience on the water/on the hills etc when litigious culture says I might get sued if it all goes wrong.Every person in that group had the option of not going so arguably why should someone be to blame.
and the question of waivers.
I have no knowledge of watersports, or the situation in this instance but have led road and MTB rides for many years.
It's one of the misconceptions that as long as everyone knows the risks and has signed a waiver then we're all good. The waiver is to cover accidents that can happen when doing the right things, not the wrong things, or doing the right things wrongly.
Second, and more important is the litigious culture. With so many people being self employed, or even having life insurance that pays out on critical illness or injury (my house term insurance does for example, if I have an accident that stops me from working then the mortgage gets paid up) - the insurers don't just pay if they think someone else might be liable for it.
Theoretical example. Say I joined a skills course, and during that extremely well organised and led activity had an accident and paralysed myself so I can no longer work. I've signed a waiver for the ride, so shit happens. I'm not blaming the leader, I've no intent of suing them. I'll just claim on my life cover, that's what I pay it for.
But I put a claim in and they want the details. And in doing so, they wonder if the risk assessment / assessment of my skill level was as good as it could have been? And decide they want to contest paying out quarter of a million quid when the instructor has liability insurance that would cover it, or at least part liability. Which involves me supporting their claim by giving evidence 'for' them, 'against' the instructor. Doesn't make me look good does it? I'd expect to get dog's abuse because I knew what I'd signed up for, etc.......
Theoretical example? or I *believe* this is what happened in the BKB case from 5-10 years back based on what i heard through local ITK people......