Have you ever made a sexual advance that you subsequently found out was unwanted? And if you have (assuiming you did the right thing and stop immediately) do you retrospetively feel that that constituted either harassment or abuse?
If you mean "Did you grab a birds arse on the dancefloor" then of course....
I don't feel it was abuse... i don't get the impression she felt it was abuse either...
What have they charged you with?
Since Facebook suspended my account, no.
NO I have no special power that enables me to tell if grabbing another persons arse without asking them will be acceptable or not so i think that is at best risky and at worse unwanted assault.If you mean "Did you grab a birds arse on the dancefloor" then of course....
I have certainly tried to interest the other sex, at various points with varying degrees of success, but there is no way I will ever be accuse of assault as I never just grabbed/mauled them and saw what happened next.
"Will you stop poking me in the back with that and just get to sleep"
Indiscretions ? Yes, guilt ? Yes but only one situation.
6th form fumble, taken out of context by me and felt guilty for the remaining two years.. then occasionally even today it appears and I go all embarrassed.
Wasn't serious, wasn't even what you'd call "sexual" these days, but it has actually formed my personality and still hangs around the back of my brain.
I could be wrong, but I think I know where this could be going.
Making a sexual advance which you subsequently discover is unwanted (which we've probably all done) is not the same as abusing your perceived 'power' to put women in a position where they may feel unable to turn down your 'advance'.
I asked a random girl a rude question in a shop once. She looked like she was coming onto me, I was young and bold. She turned me down.
I retrospectively think I should've just smiled at her and taken a mental picture.
As a married man I find that 95% of my sexual advances are unwanted...
Anyway as a teenager yes, more of a went in for a kiss and been less then politely told I'd misread the situation (only in Teen speak).
Or tried to move a kissing situation into a bit of a shagging situation and been told to cool my jets.
I don't think I've ever groped anyone like some stealth ninja attack on the dance floor, it does happen though, only the other day my Wife told me someone grabbed her arse as she walked through the pub on my birthday back in June.
Yes, more than once.Have you ever made a sexual advance that you subsequently found out was unwanted?
I didAnd if you have (assuiming you did the right thing and stop immediately)
nope.do you retrospetively feel that that constituted either harassment or abuse?
Not after getting rid of her friends and my staff by devious means to engineer a one on one situation in a hotel room, no.
I could be wrong, but I think I know where this could be going.
I think it might be “I have a Men’s Rights issue I really need to talk about, but I need an [i]in[/i].”
I suspect I have, yes. The location was likely a dance floor and I was likely a very naive teenager just trying anything to get a snog, we're talking a deliberate brush against a young ladies bum here. I am not particularly proud of the fact, in fact looking back it makes me feel rather ashamed.
[i] but I think I know where this could be going.[/i]
Harvey thingy?
Shame it takes one brave woman to come forward, then others start accusing. Definitely abuse of power.
Define what you mean. There have been times (before I was coupled up, in case Mrs V is reading) I've approached people with the intention of chatting them up with a view to companionship, maybe leading to more (OK, definitely leading to more). Most of these times i've been rebuffed, ergo my advance was unwanted.
Have I ever used power (physical or 'managerial' type) to try to make an advance. Lord no.....
😆I think it might be “I have a Men’s Rights issue I really need to talk about, but I need an in.”
Probably.
Making a sexual advance which you subsequently discover is unwanted (which we've probably all done) is not the same as abusing your perceived 'power' to put women in a position where they may feel unable to turn down your 'advance'.
+1
I also, back then and at the behest of my girlfriend, approached a girl in a club and invited her for a 3bee 😆 Couple of times actually. One of them was quite pleased but refused, the other was shocked and probably felt abused!
It's how we learn the boundaries in our teenage years. Something fat, ol Harv obviously didn't have the same lessons in.
But when unwanted = harassment then likely everyone has sexually harassed someone else under current definition.Making a sexual advance which you subsequently discover is unwanted (which we've probably all done) is not the same as abusing your perceived 'power' to put women in a position where they may feel unable to turn down your 'advance'.
I suspect I have, yes. The location was likely a dance floor and I was likely a very naive teenager just trying anything to get a snog. I am not particularly proud of the fact, looking back it makes me feel rather ashamed.
I was, many times, a recipient of such an advance. It happened, that's what discos were for 😆 There's really no need to feel ashamed.
Its ok bikebouy - your old Headmaster doesn't hold a grudge (although apparently he'll hold something else for a bag of Werthers and a pint of Mild)
Once in Prague in Darlings before I knew what was what. Got quite swiftly reprimanded by the lady involved once she realised I wasn't getting my wallet out. 😆
But when unwanted = harassment then likely everyone has sexually harassed someone else under current definition.
To me, harassment would imply a bit more persistence than a one-off advance.
Unwanted does not equal harassment.
You'd be surprised.Unwanted does not equal harassment.
Sexual harassment is [b]unwanted [/b]behaviour of a sexual nature which:violates your dignity
makes you feel intimidated, degraded or humiliated
creates a hostile or offensive environmentYou don’t need to have previously objected to someone's behaviour for it to be considered unwanted.
I would have previously thought of the incident in the report below as harassment not sexual assult.
Have you ever made a sexual advance that you subsequently found out was unwanted?
I have had several turned down over the years. But these are verbal advances, I think any physical contact without getting permission is a bit 1970's.
And if you have (assuiming you did the right thing and stop immediately)
Since for me it just involves accepting a verbal 'no', there isn't much to stop. I don't then feel a prolonged period of unwanted courting/ stalking will change the response.
do you retrospectively feel that that constituted either harassment or abuse?
No, as I just accepted an answer. But I do think if you have just initiated some unwanted physical advance without permission then yes it could be seen as harassment or abuse.
I always think asking is the best way to understand if another party is consenting.
[quote=wallop ]Unwanted does not equal harassment.
That depends on what you mean by "sexual advance".
Unwanted does not equal harassment.
True but unwanted hands is assault. That is a full stop at that.
As a married man I find that 95% of my sexual advances are unwanted...
This.
I'd guess when I was single about 40pc of my advances were unwanted.
Now I'm married, about 95pc.
Like a few other people, misread situations and got politely (or not-so-politely in some cases) told to do one. Always backed off immediately, been somewhat embarrassed, and left it alone. (Though in one case, the young lady got back to me some time later to make her own return advance, having just become single.)
I think it might be “I have a Men’s Rights issue I really need to talk about, but I need an in.”
Psychic, or what? 🙂
Is it sexual assault if it's done by women? I ask - because even though I am totally average looking, when I was 16 my 40 year old ****ing Tescos manager came along and gave me shoulder massage whilst I was working at the checkout, some bird randomly stuck her hands up my shirt at a club and another slapped my arse as she walked past - only a few weeks ago.
So is that three counts of sexual assault in my lifetime? Do I need trauma therapy, or is it a case of it being because I am a man and therefore obviously stronger - that I have never felt threatened by female deviants and therefore don't need to see a head shrinker?
As a married man I find that 95% of my sexual advances are unwanted...
95%?
How long have you been having an affair?
On the subject of unwanted or uninvited physical contact
I have on a number of occasions had my balls grabbed in pubs/clubs etc etc by drunken ladies...
I've never given it much thought before , but does this make me a 'victim of harassment'? I just put it down to drunken behaviour and never gave it a second thought..
hmmm
Tom_W1987 - Member
Is it sexual assault if it's done by women? I ask - because even though I am totally average looking, when I was 16 my 40 year old **** Tescos manager came along and gave me shoulder massage whilst I was working at the checkout, some bird randomly stuck her hands up my shirt at a club and another slapped my arse as she walked past - only a few weeks ago.
Is it that complicated, yes it is. If it's uninvited then you are not invited to do that. The man or woman thing actually masks the issue completely and makes things like reporting harder for people. There was a report of a rise I reported cases in the news.
For some men I guess the question is how would you like somebody doing that to your daughter
I have never felt threatened by female deviants
Clearly, you've never worn a kilt.
I've never given it much thought before , but does this make me a 'victim of harassment'? I just put it down to drunken behaviour and never gave it a second thought..
It is 'harassment' in the same way as a man doing the same to a woman. However, how harassed you feel is down to the individual. Some may love it, others feel violated.
but does this make me a 'victim of harassment'?
Sexual harassment is [*][b]unwanted [/b][/*]behaviour of a sexual nature which:
violates your dignity
makes you feel intimidated, degraded or humiliated
creates a hostile or offensive environment
Depends - did you want your balls grabbed?
Yep and to make a don't misquoted post.....
If a man said he had just shoved his hand up a woman's skirt for a feel what would your reaction be apart from Donald Trump
was wondering when this thread would pop up.
sigh.
Hell yeah ..but none in the last 20 years.
Loads of one nighters in my late teens ..how the hell are you supposed to find out if the girl is interested if you don't at least try ..never ever gone past anything the lady didn't want to do though ..
Sexual assault for putting your hand on someone's knee ? Do me a f***ing favour ..get real !( though I havent read the article yet )
Not since I took that hypnotism course.
Is it that complicated, yes it is. If it's uninvited then you are not invited to do that. The man or woman thing actually masks the issue completely and makes things like reporting harder for people. There was a report of a rise I reported cases in the news.
For some men I guess the question is how would you like somebody doing that to your daughter
Of course it is, my point was made half jokingly.
Still, I never actually felt threatened though - because unlike a lot of women I could have just sparked any of them out had I felt the need to do so. I think a lot of men don't realise what it's like not to have that level of power over the other sex.
Clearly, you've never worn a kilt.
I have and I found out that Newcastle girls have cold hands
- because unlike a lot of women I could have just sparked any of them out had I felt the need to do so.
Swoon
I'd hate to think how much dna is spread around pubs and clubs when Scotland are playing in Dublin or Cardiff. Offhand I'd say a fair amount.
Pun intended.
[quote=thisisnotaspoon ]Swoon
No need to spark you out then.
Yes but she was asking for it by wearing a short skirt and being drunk . 😮
But it's a fair point isn't it, most of the blokes on here probably know very little about what it's like dealing with pervy/creepy men on a daily basis who are 60 to 100lb heavier than you. At the end of the day, most of you... 9 times out of 10 - unless you've attracted the advances of Brienne of Tarth 😆 - could extricate yourself from unwanted advances.
I didn't ask based on any kind of 'MRA issue' more of a 'media reporting/sexual politics' issue. I asked because of the language that is typically used by the media in the reporting of stories such as the Harvey Weinstein case.
As mentioned, I agree entirely that the use of position and power as a coercive element to force an issue even after it's become clear that the advanced is unwanted, is unequivocally harrassment and, potentially, abuse.
It's interesting that the langauge used though specifically connects 'unwanted advances' with 'harassment' and 'abuse' frequently without the caveats cited above.
I'm so glad I'm not a teenager today. I've no idea how the hell you're supposed to navigate the world of sexual politics these days. It will end up with pre-nup's for sexual congress before long!
Art imitates (or perhaps predicts) life.
BTW if you don't think the MRA thing is important or don't agree with the issues you can always just ignore them....
I did, as a student, get accused of Sexual assault. The girl had gone to the student councillor and told her what had happened. Councillor investigated by interviewing me. Firstly asked if I'd done it? "no" any witnesses as to what you were doing Monday evening? "yes about 100 I was quiz master at the union quiz" at that point the whole accusation fell apart, but the police were in I had a nice trip to the station and dna given. All pretty traumatic for me. More so for her the police explained in no uncertain terms what could have happened and what could happen to her.
Apparently she was pissed off because I'd ignored her a couple of weeks before and copped off with her friend.
I don't think that the average bloke in a nightclub makes the advances because he is bigger and stronger than the woman though, it's more a misguided belief that the woman wants the advance made on them (possibly because if roles were reversed the man would welcome any kind of advance from a woman).
When asking someone out could be classed as harassement, do they now ask if they can ask someone out before asking them out? What if even asking someone if they can ask them out is unwelcomed? No wonder kids are identifying as unicorns and rainbows these days.I'm so glad I'm not a teenager today. I've no idea how the hell you're supposed to navigate the world of sexual politics these days.
I've no idea how the hell you're supposed to navigate the world of sexual politics these days.
I gather there's an app for it.
Apparently she was pissed off because I'd ignored her a couple of weeks before and copped off with her friend
Occupational hazards of just being too damn hot, bro.
I don't think that the average bloke in a nightclub makes the advances because he is bigger and stronger than the woman though,
No, but a lot of blokes aren't very good with the empathy part and don't always get why some women make quite a big deal of it.
Occupational hazards of just being too damn hot, bro.
😀
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Unwanted? Me? Of course not.
I gather there's an app for it.
You jest but I am sure that it's coming (if you will pardon the obvious pun).
geetee1972 - MemberI asked because of the language that is typically used by the media in the reporting of stories such as the Harvey Weinstein case.
Isn't Weinstein a super lefty/liberal (at least by American standards) with his "Women's Foundation" and his LGBTQ+ foundation, his support for Hilary, pro gun control etc etc.
Perhaps he was compensating for something 😉
Isn't Weinstein a super lefty/liberal (at least by American standards) with his "Women's Foundation" and his LGBTQ+ foundation, his support for Hilary, pro gun control etc etc.Perhaps he was compensating for something
Life imitating art?
I'm so glad I'm not a teenager today. I've no idea how the hell you're supposed to navigate the world of sexual politics these days. It will end up with pre-nup's for sexual congress before long!
it hasn't really changed though.
You make an unwanted advance, probably as a teenager or early 20's, and get a slap/told to sod off/an embarrassing rejection.
Then, if you're any kind of human, you go away, get over it, and think about how not come across like a git in future. By the age of about 23 you have honed your social skills to the point that you can ask someone on a date without them thinking you're a ****.
That's what most people do, and it still pretty much works. We all do stupid stuff when young, and provided we learn from it, it rarely becomes a huge problem.
Someone like Weinstein OTOH was so notorious for being a despicable shit that people joked about it onstage at the Oscars, in TV shows, openly. Decades of abuse, assault, (alleged) rape, of junior people whose careers he could (and did) destroy, of people younger than his own daughters. It's not like he was on a night out with a peer and misguidedly went for a snog. There's just no comparison.
I asked Deadly if he wanted to play the rape game.
He said no.
I won.
I was never Mr Tickle when I was younger. I was frankly too bloody useless. My pulling prowess in clubs when I was a student progressed through the night something like this: Sober -> too drunk to be able chat up a girl -> drunk enough to actually have the courage to do so -> walking home on my own again.
As I've got older and more confident, the only time I've 'made a move' on a girl is when I've been absolutely certain that she'd been waiting for my to do it for the last three [s]years[/s] hours. And for context, I'm still oblivious half the time. "She was flirting with you, you know!" - "Er, was she? Damn it."
So no. About the only "unwanted sexual advance" I could be guilty of is the odd inappropriate comment. I don't have a very good filter for stuff like that.
As a married man I find that 95% of my sexual advances are unwanted...
5% success rate? You essentially just confessed to using Rohypnol.
Guys, guys....also....this crazy woman is lecturing in the lecture space in the building I live (no I don't ****ing live in a Californian hippy commune).
Shall I go along and ask if I get a blowjob after, and whether appropriating blowjobs will send me on a lifetime journey of self discovery that give me meaning to my empty life and the banality of existence? Or would that make me a chauvanistic pig, and/or hilariously deluded philosophically?
I've been sexually harassed by a rather drunk gay man. Mainly fairly obnoxious comments iver a bar that i was working behind.
He pinched my arse though in full view of a fair number of people. At that point i could have planted a glass in his face i was so embarrassed and angry. he got an absolute bollocking from me and his mate dragged him out he was alot bigger than i was like proper mountain of a man. The mistake i made was not shutting it down at the start. Thats why its not okay on any level because any give can be implied* as some sort of acceptance.
*Wrongly very wrongly.
I dare sailed i've strayed to close to the line myself and I'd hate to think thats made someone feel like i did.
And i've intervened on a number of occasions when i've seen it happening to others.
It's interesting that the langauge used though specifically connects 'unwanted advances' with 'harassment' and 'abuse' frequently without the caveats cited above.
Why is this interesting?
Reports of those behaviours together paint a picture of a sexual predator. Nobody's saying unwanted advances = harrassment, apart from you perhaps.
So why do you make that connection? Be honest with us (and yourself) please.
There's just no comparison.
No one was making one.
and think about how not come across like a git in future.
Making an unwanted sexual advance doesn't automatically make you a git though does it. Persisting in making one does.
I think the fact that you/people in general think that it does make you a git shows that things HAVE changed quite drastically, sometimes for the better, sometimes not so.
I always think asking is the best way to understand if another party is consenting.
Asking *is* an advance!
5% success rate? You essentially just confessed to using Rohypnol.
95%? How long have you been having an affair?
Nice work, both. 🙂
Why is this interesting?
Because my undergrad degree was cultural anthropology. I'm interested in how a modern society's, cultural norms and values are negotiated, established and maintained and the use of language is a key mechanism for this. The language that is used changes the way we feel about things if that language is used consistently enough.
my undergrad degree
Interesting.
undergrad degree was cultural anthropology
With that background you can probably answer a question I've been pondering for ages....
...how many Gherkins go into a Big Mac?
Making an unwanted sexual advance doesn't automatically make you a git though does it. Persisting in making one does.I think the fact that you/people in general think that it does make you a git shows that things HAVE changed quite drastically, sometimes for the better, sometimes not so.
well I was going more on the premise that most of us don't consider ourselves to be gits (we'd prefer to think that we were misinterpreted) - but we don't want other people to think we are gits either. So we modify our behaviour in response to the situations we encounter.
Making an unwanted advance doesn't necessarily denote, er, gittishness. But if you got a slap or some cross words you can probably assume that the object of your affections thought you were, at that moment, acting like a git. As a one-off, perhaps a simple mistake. As part of an unchecked pattern of behaviour, though, a different picture emerges.
...how many Gherkins go into a Big Mac?
As a one-off, perhaps a simple mistake. As part of an unchecked pattern of behaviour, though, a different picture emerges.I suspect an MBA would be more useful in answering that question.
I entirely agree.
Emma Watson being "helped" into a Limo. Not looking entirely comfortable
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Making an unwanted advance doesn't necessarily denote, er, gittishness. But if you got a slap or some cross words you can probably assume that the object of your affections thought you were, at that moment, acting like a git. As a one-off, perhaps a simple mistake. As part of an unchecked pattern of behaviour, though, a different picture emerges.
Quite.
I think we have to acknowledge that at some point most of us are going to have to be making sexual advances otherwise we'd die out as a species within a generation. The question is how we gauge whether or not it's likely to be a welcome advance. Aside from the likes of Trump's famous cat-worrying, there's a world of difference between going up to a stranger and saying "hi, my name is Steve, what's yours?" and "nice tits luv, can I have a go on 'em later?"
(There may by situations where the latter 'direct approach' is acceptable, but probably in the frozen foods aisle in ASDA.)
Whilst Weinsten's actions are deplorable, it's odd that the press don't pursue Donald Trump and Bill Clinton with such fervour. Probably something to do with the women involved being less powerful and famous.
In the interests of balance and disclosure, there is an incident where I could be accused of making an unwanted sexual advance...
I was doing a creative writing course as a mature student~ the lecturer started making eyes at me, would pair up with me on group exercises (something she didn't do with any of the other students) and would follow me to the coffee machine at break, then walk back and chat with me on the way back to the classroom. She gave me her email and there was some chemistry, so I wrote with a bit of innuendo...
Next thing I know, get summoned to the Univerity Principal's office and banned from all courses for a term.
Suffice to say the relationship failed to blossom.
Whilst Weinsten's actions are deplorable, it's odd that the press don't pursue Donald Trump and Bill Clinton with such fervour.
Hang on. This is news to me. Whats this about Trump of Clinton? 🙂
I Got a 'lingering hand on leg' at work whilst being physically arranged for a group photo by a director of another prominent 3rd sector organisation. I was about 26 and she would have been late 40s. It was peak Saville, so possibly a revenge attack. Felt a bit weird about it, but didn't say anything...
Worst of all she wasn't hot. If she'd been a honey I'd have been all over it like a rash. Always the way...
