[Closed] Have we done the tube drivers pay deal?

Removing drivers from the tube driving equation would make them more reliable and stop millions being held to ransom by a few individuals.

While I can believe this conversation is happening, I find this whole being held to ransom bit a bit OTT.

Being held to ransom is bankrupting the entire banking system and then going cap in hand to the Government to use public money to bail them out knowing full well if the system isn't bailed out, we are all pretty much screwed.

One union that has more bargaining power than others and off go the right whingers about union power and how it can bring a country to its knees or inconvenience millions, while conveniently forgetting that the city and it's cohorts were actually far more successful in this particular action than the unions ever were.

Divided you fall.

Ah, so because the bankers did it (in general by screwing up, rather than deliberately), it's all right for the tube drivers to do it too (on purpose because they know they can get away with it)?

But they're not though are they so shut up.

so shut up

Well, if you will insist on bleating on the same blinkered, prejudiced right-wing crap, then what do you expect?

I mean, swallowing the Tory line that unions are evil etc etc etc, and swallowing the right-wing media's demonisation of unions, their leaders and members don't strike me as a particularly intellectual feat.

Change the record. You, and all of us, should be grateful we have unions in this country. Or would you prefer there to be none, and business allowed to do what TF it liked with it's workers?

So you are comparing that one union in one city in the country has the same potential to bring the country down like the bankers did?

So the tube drivers get a pay rise, and the bankers/hedge funds etc, made horrifically bad investments that bankrupted themselves causing an international calamity.

How the hell are you lumping these two together?

How the hell are you lumping these two together?

You, and all of us, should be grateful we have unions in this country. Or would you prefer there to be none, and business allowed to do what TF it liked with it's workers?

Maybe it's you who should change the record.

This story is nothing to do with banking, so let's leave that issue for another time.

All jobs should be paid based on what it costs to get qualified, capable staff. Not what the staff want, or believe they are worth. If the firm pays any more, it will be inefficient. If the firm pays too little, its staff are free to find another firm willing to pay the market rate.

I'd love to get paid £2m a year to do bike guiding in the Alps, or to train naked supermodels at swimming. Unfortunately, a lot of other people are willing to do that as well, so the rates are so low you have to pay to do these jobs.

There is a massive pool of people qualified to, or able to learn to, drive tube trains. Time the tube payed market rates. The current waste of money could be diverted to other social projects which would deliver a better return.

The current protection racket on the tube is taking doctors from hospitals, food from orphans and money from everyone's pockets, and handing it to a select few in the relevant union.

Er, I didn't introduce the bankers to this argument. Hold on a second, I'll just check back and see who it was..

And what has this got to do with you lumping unions into the same bracket as bankers?

This story is nothing to do with banking

The current protection racket on the tube is taking doctors from hospitals, food from orphans and money from everyone's pockets, and handing it to a select few in the relevant union.

Well it clearly has, but don't let that get in the way of blaming a union.

Food from orphans...dear god. 🙄

Ewan... yep, your book is wrong.

The new Vic Line trains can't be automatically driven from a control centre. There is an Auto driving mode, which drives the train at it's optimum speed profile between stations, but this mode requires the the driver the initiate the run, and it is the train itself which is doing the driving. There is some fairly hefty computer power in the cabs these days!

The control centre does have some influence over the train, but that is only by the control over the signalling, so it has the ability to make a train stop, or impose speed restrictions, but it does not have any actual control over the train.

There are also a number of other driving modes where the driver does actually fully drive the train using the traction/brake controller...

The belief that these "hero" unions have "negotiated" anything is a joke. Blackmail would be a more accurate description.

Crow is a Marxist, which to his credit he doesn't try and conceal unlike a lot of fluffy Lefties on here

So yer average tube train driver probably earns a good bit more than yer average STW right winger. Is that why they're all frothing about it?

Won't "the market" sort all this out over time ? Presumably the wage bill has to be paid for by TfL out of it's income streams. Ticket income, advertising, public funding (and this is London tax payers?). When ticket prices reach a certain tipping point then passengers will attempt to use alternative methods of transport (where possible), advertising rates will cause advertisers to go elsewhere and eventually London tax payers will get hacked off with public transport subsidisation and vote for politicians proposing to do something about it (whatever that might be).

Or is that just Ladybird / Janet and John economics ?

I believe they are vastly over paid, in comparison to other jobs in the public and private sector.

I think that they are paid about double what they are worth.

I dont feel its a difficult job and that the union has done a good job in negotiating the pay deal.
If the management want to pay the wages then they are the stupid ones, but based on the wages of the drivers they are paid more than senior reg doctors so its clearly an over paid job for the skill, level of training and level of qualification for the job.

There is a massive pool of people qualified to, or able to learn to, drive tube trains. Time the tube payed market rates. The current waste of money could be diverted to other social projects which would deliver a better return.

I was told when I did my mainline driving course that that only one out of every thousand applicants actual make the grade and qualify. Driving Trains is not a job that any idiot can do. Think you can handle the pressure of having 700 odd people all looking to you when things go wrong?

It's ironic that despite all the right wing froth on this thread the free market for our labour was created by The Conservatives when they privatised the industry. In order to retain drivers and attract the right calibre of new applicants they have to pay what is with their pay rise just above the market rate for a mainline driver.

TOC A pays 40k, TOC B pays 30k. Drivers leave TOC B in droves to work for TOC A. B doesn't have enough drivers to maintain a service. B puts it's wage upto 45k and drivers return. A is now in trouble so increases it's wage. And so it goes on.

funkynick - My book predates the new rolling stock - it's talking about the original 1968(?) rolling stock. Sounds like the Union's won that argument and we've got a less capable system in place....

It should be like the DLR - a complex railway system that's entirely automated. I don't recall the DLR ever going on strike...

I don't think they are VASTLY overpaid, probably 10-15%, but not vast. check out this link. http://www.traindrivertrainee.com/Train-Driver-Pay-and-Conditions.html. It might not be the most difficult job, but since when did difficulty come into pay, lots of difficult jobs for minimum wage aren't there.? You can't make a comparison with a doctor, he screws up and one person dies, a tube driver screws up and potentially hundreds die. So not difficult, but more responsibility perhaps

I do think that the way threats of strike action are levied and bonuses given for not striking during the Olympics is abhorrent.

Cant compare it to a doctor?
Are you ****ing kidding me?

The responsibility a doctor deals with day in day out a life time devoted to the profession, the years of training to qualify and then the endless ongoing training, and long unsocial hours, nights, weekends, not leaving until the job is done, covering crap foreing doctors, dealing with relatives telling them their relative has died day in day out, saving lives every day, are you just being a complete and utter ****?
A driver sits in the cab and shuts the door and presses go then stops the the next station opens the doors.
for ****s sake, you can not imagine the difference

How can we be in a country where a train driver is valued more than a senior reg.

So yer average tube train driver probably earns a good bit more than yer average STW right winger. Is that why they're all frothing about it?

I think this is the key.

Some of you guys are so wound up in your own froth that you become parodies, and so, so funny, and particularly as the wage war that is being wonderfully exploited by the evil rail unions is in all forms a Tory creation (as stated above by darkcove) - ace, isn't it?
..and I don't know a single poor doctor (I know some tired ones) - but I don't see them handing back the enormous pay increases imposed upon them by the last government.

So yer average tube train driver probably earns a good bit more than yer average STW right winger. Is that why they're all frothing about it?

I know a lot of doctors, who I now realise are paid less than a train driver, and I now consider that a sick joke.

only one out of every thousand applicants actual make the grade and qualify

They may get 1000 applicants for every job but I don't believe only 0.1% capable of doing it. Need some evidence.

I think that all of the 'I'm in chrage ot x lives' etc ...is absolute twaddle. Just becuase you have a certain responsibility that does not make a job either difficul or risky.

It is basically supply and demand. The more difficult jobs may pay more due to this but equally these jobs may be more fulfilling. Engineering is a typical case here but the relatively low pay does hinder the supply of high calibre candidates.

What is different is the market forces are distorted by the power of the unions. This is wrong.

That must be it - nothing at all to do with the bully boy tactics they used to get it.

The fact is, unions are one of the few forces left in society acting for the interests of ordinary workers against the vast vested interests of big business. The government (of whatever party) have pretty much given up. And yet people swallow the right-wing propaganda (strangely enough mainly pumped out by the same vested interests) that unions are evil.

And all this 'paid more than a doctor' stuff is a smokescreen anyway. Carlos Tevez gets paid £250,000 a week to kick a ball around and can't even be bothered to do his job. Sadly that's the capitalist world we live in, I thought you right-wingers were all in favour?

So yer average tube train driver probably earns a good bit more than yer average STW right winger. Is that why they're all frothing about it?

And they're working class. That must really hurt.

Ive not added to this so far and it is completely irrelevant to rail worker pay but have to answer to aP - I'm married to medic and am interested to see when my wife can expect her pay rise foisted upon her as you have mentioned?
Perhaps you are referring to the ill advised and highly publicised new GP contracts of recent years? if so then maybe it is similar to the rail union in having being savvy and negotiating well for its members - as the government I believe realised shortly after the deal was struck that it wasn't as good as they hoped?
Also comparatively my wife is a junior - (middle grade reg) who if we work out hourly rate me as a nurse would be better much off if I did her crazy long hours not to mention all the reading/ study/ exam crap done in own time but expected or is noted and held against you.
For typical example she did on call days last weekend friday to sunday alledgedly 09:00-21:00 in intensive care - friday did 08:00 to 23:30 for pateints needs, saturday 09:00- 22:30 and sunday 09:00 -21:45 - all the extra bits free of charge to the trust because patient care doesn't just stop at clocking off time, or have regulated guaranteed breaks - often she gets in having not having time to eat from leaving house at 07:00. The above example is not unusual in medic, more the norm - I'm sure these tube drivers put just as much effort into being grumpy surly arses?
Sorry bit ranty but I love when people with no real experience of the job or conditions feel can target medics, aye some are highly paid but is a long, antisocial, non-family friendly and exhausting route to get there so why shouldn't there be appropriate remuneration for 15-20 years effort to achieve that??

Grum, thats not true at all for the vast majority of us. The unions did great things in their time which was the industrial revolution. They ensured that not only pay but conditions, working hours and health and safety were improved for the benefit of all. That is an admirable achievement.

The problem with many unions and the RMT is probably the worst is that they have not modernised and evolved. It is still a class war against the oppressive goverment/employer/big business etc.

Unions can only remain relevent in a modern society if they work with business and government. They need to understand that for employees to maintain good wages, conditions and so forth that a company needs to be successful. There will be hard times where workers need to share some of the pain for the greater good of the company.

There also needs to be an undestanding of sustability which is sadly lacking from many left wing figures. Pensions, pay and conditions need to be sustainable for the long term and crucially not at the expense of others ...i.e. the young/private sector.

What the RMT is doing is distorting the free market. This either pushes wages to an unsustainable level and/or provides inequality between workers with comparable skills and responsibilities. This is why there is so much hostility to the RMT on here and in the general public at large.

jumpupanddown /ranos - What part of my statement was incorrect? Seriously? Explain it to me... Choosing to see history through a leftist 'working class hero' squint doesn't change reality. The luddites were against technological change that has without doubt changed the world for the better. Removing drivers from the tube driving equation would make them more reliable and stop millions being held to ransom by a few individuals.

Repeating the same thing over and again doesn't make it true. Please do some reading on the Luddites - what they lost, the effect of societal changes on the average working person, then try and tell me that the life of the average working person was made better. You would do well to look further than a couple of lines from wikipedia.

It's ironic that the thing that really did improve the lot of the working person was trade unionism, a point that, as with many other things, seems to have passed you by.

I dont see unions as evil, or bullys, I just dont see public sector unions working with their employers.
It still seems to be an us v them attitude.
whereas in a lot of private sector based unions I see a lot more co-operation happening in what are the most dire econoic times the country has seen in decades.
and I feel management in these public sector organisations are as much to blame for the poor working relations.
I dont see it as political.
Ideally the less political the situation the better the relationship,

What the RMT is doing is distorting the free market. This either pushes wages to an unsustainable level and/or provides inequality between workers with comparable skills and responsibilities. This is why there is so much hostility to the RMT on here and in the general public at large.

We don't have a free market. If you believe that's what we should have, I advise you to move to DR Congo.

whereas in a lot of private sector based unions I see a lot more co-operation happening in what are the most dire econoic times the country has seen in decades.

And where has this spirit of cooperation got us? An increasingly unequal society with ever more power and money controlled by the few, a huge drop in union membership, and worsening terms and conditions for the average person.

Whatever you think of Bob Crow (and I don't care for him much), his supposed militancy seems to be achieving rather more for his members. The operator's income ends up with the shareholders & management, or the workers: think of Crow as redressing the balance a little.

On a wider note, the pay settlement for the drivers works out to inflation plus a little bit. Is it really so outrageous? Or is it just jealousy?

yet people swallow the right-wing propaganda (strangely enough mainly pumped out by the same vested interests) that unions are evil.

Unions can only remain relevent in a modern society if they work with business and government. They need to understand that for employees to maintain good wages, conditions and so forth that a company needs to be successful. There will be hard times where workers need to share some of the pain for the greater good of the company.

There also needs to be an undestanding of sustability which is sadly lacking from many left wing figures. Pensions, pay and conditions need to be sustainable for the long term and crucially not at the expense of others ...i.e. the young/private sector.

This is all well and good, except..... we keep hearing about how we need pay restraint etc, yet corporate pay continues to rise rapidly, while ordinary workers get nothing. The ratio of pay discrepancy between executives and ordinary workers in most companies has risen massively over the last couple of decades, and continued to rise rapidly even during the financial crisis. The unions are literally the only force acting against that.

Ransos ....you really are a dinosaur. The world has moved on, its not about us and them anymore. Private sector unions work together as that is in the best interests of their members, i.e. to maintian jobs and growth.

The only reason public sector/essential service unions such as the RMT are so antagonistic is beacuse the company cannot simply be dissolved. Even more reason to shrink the public sector with extreme and idealogical idiocy like yours.

An increasingly unequal society with ever more power and money controlled by the few

Frodo - is this what you want? Because that's the reality of what is happening right now, and as above the unions are literally the only force acting against it.

Grum. I agree the pay divide is too large. The problem is however executive pay that is not justified by results or skills. The answer is to address this issue. It is not feasible to close the gap from the bottom, this is simply not affordable.

"Ransos ....you really are a dinosaur. The world has moved on, its not about us and them anymore. Private sector unions work together as that is in the best interests of their members, i.e. to maintian jobs and growth.

The only reason public sector/essential service unions such as the RMT are so antagonistic is beacuse the company cannot simply be dissolved. Even more reason to shrink the public sector with extreme and idealogical idiocy like yours. "

So, rather than answer my post, you have chosen to respond with silly insults. That's all the evidence we need that you have well and truly lost the argument. If you really can't see that the weak state of unions in the private sector is a significant reason that employers are driving down on terms and conditions, there's no hope for you.

Edited to add: if you want to call someone an "idealogical idiot", learn to spell it.

Good on them....there is plenty of money out there if you have the right skills and are prepared to move around for it.

Grum. I agree the pay divide is too large. The problem is however executive pay that is not justified by results or skills. [b]The answer is to address this issue.[/b]

And how do you suggest doing that? The unions campaign about this issue BTW, not sure I've ever heard anyone else talk about it.

It is not feasible to close the gap from the bottom, this is simply not affordable.

It's not affordable because we have to pay ever increasing salaries to executives?

market forces are distorted by the power of the unions. This is wrong.

Grum, thats not true at all for the vast majority of us. The unions did great things in their time which was the industrial revolution. They ensured that not only pay but conditions, working hours and health and safety were improved for the benefit of all. That is an admirable achievement.

The problem with many unions and the RMT is probably the worst is that they have not modernised and evolved. It is still a class war against the oppressive goverment/employer/big business etc.

What the RMT is doing is distorting the free market. This either pushes wages to an unsustainable level and/or provides inequality between workers with comparable skills and responsibilities. This is why there is so much hostility to the RMT on here and in the general public at large.

A lot of executives are not in unions so who is negotiating their pay rises? 😉

Seriosuly though, companies like Honda, Nissan UK have some of the best working relationships in the country and Honda were on short weeks and everyone went along with the pay cut to safeguard their jobs, can you imagine the strikes and complete breakdown of the company if Bob crow had been in charge of their union?

the sooner the politics is taken out of unions and management the better.

"And how do you suggest doing that? The unions campaign about this issue BTW, not sure I've ever heard anyone else talk about it."

Quite. Since the unions were cut down in the 1980s, the only people with the power to address this problem, are the people who benefit from it. And with turkeys not being keen on Christmas, don't expect it to change anytime soon.

I've seen a lot of comments on these pages about how unions should work with their employers. Well, unions have been significantly weakened now for at least 25 years, and so in most cases have been doing exactly that. Where has it got the average working person? Less job security, loss of pension rights, and watching the rich get richer.

Of course a two-way system of co-operation, if we had a German style system, with union representation on the board, things may improve, but there seems to be no appetite for that on the part of employers.

Executive pay is agreed by the owners of the business - they think they have to pay the amounts involved to have the right people at the top which they think is important. The lower down the tree the less this matters as there are more people able to do the job. So footballers and Jonathan Ross get paid huge amounts of cash and supermarket shelf stackers may have to rely upon the minimum wage.

But we're all human so maybe we should all be paid the same no matter what we do? Are we not all equal?

If you really can't see that the weak state of unions in the private sector is a significant reason that employers are driving down on terms and conditions, there's no hope for you.

The UK private sector unions could force employers to pay everyone double what they do now and an extra ten days holiday - problem is, they wouldn't have any jobs left, as their products would no longer be competitive in a global market.

The public sector does not have this problem, their captive audience of "customers" has money taken off them by force of law (ie. tax) - and if they run out of that, the government borrows billions to keep them in business.

But we're all human so maybe we should all be paid the same no matter what we do? Are we not all equal?

Why would you bother with the stress of being a doctor, or the danger of being an oil rig worker, if you got the same money for no stress stacking shelves in a supermarket?

my only problem with unions is the same problem I have with solicitors, if someoene else is representing me, then their interests come in to the equation and that is not always in my best interest.

So I think employee representation at board level, not necessarily union representation.

and dont get me started on solicitor salaries 😉

"The UK private sector unions could force employers to pay everyone double what they do now and an extra ten days holiday - problem is, they wouldn't have any jobs left, as their products would no longer be competitive in a global market.

The public sector does not have this problem, their captive audience of "customers" has money taken off them by force of law (ie. tax) - and if they run out of that, the government borrows billions to keep them in business."

The majority of the private sector isn't unionised, so the unions can't force employers to do anything.

As for your comment about the public sector, substitute in the word "banks" and you'll be closer to the mark.

Why would you bother with the stress of being a doctor, or the danger of being an oil rig worker, if you got the same money for no stress stacking shelves in a supermarket?

Er yes.... So what jobs pay similar rates to tube drivers? Can we compare and contrast?

This is all very silly is it not? Can we all take a reality check, now is not the time to be idelogical. The nation is broke and we need to fix that first.

The reason I belive unions are outdated is the fact that they don't represent the working man, they represent their members. Far better for the unions to be marginalised and the working people to be represented by ...umm I don't know ....the Labour party? (or substitute party of your choice). That is what democracy is about.

(btw when I referred to the unions and industricl revolution I was referring to the movement which started in the industrial revolution and not a specific union).

first comparison is senior reg doctors in ITU being paid less.

Pilots earn less for ****s sake

Repeating the same thing over and again doesn't make it true. Please do some reading on the Luddites - what they lost, the effect of societal changes on the average working person, then try and tell me that the life of the average working person was made better. You would do well to look further than a couple of lines from wikipedia.

Are you seriously trying to argue that the net effect of the industrial revolution was a negative one? Really? If so, I give up!

Er yes.... So what jobs pay similar rates to tube drivers? Can we compare and contrast?

As per Drac's post, paramedics, even in senior roles managing junior staff also get paid less.

On the occasions that I have to use the tube, I am always struck by the contrast between the experience and the regular announcement that:

[b]"London Underground is currently running a good service on all lines."[/b]

It always brings an ironic smile to my face!!!

Mudshark - quick look on NHS jobs site trust doctor anaesthetics registrar in Ealing - so should have London Weighting included - start salary £48k, does say up to 75k but would struggle to find anyone near achieving this in that sort of post.
Responsibilities will include putting people asleep and more importantly waking safely, resus calls, intensive care cover, major incident cover (see not just tube drivers need to be ready for this)
Oh and that was a 1yr contract so no security after this and as is trust dr post, also called staff grade, no definitive entitlement to continuing education and in this role not working towards consultant level as not 'training post'

"first comparison is senior reg doctors in ITU being paid less."

I think that's wrong. And if GPs/ consultants earned a little less, we could pay registrar doctors more appropriately.

This is all very silly is it not? Can we all take a reality check, now is not the time to be idelogical. The nation is broke and we need to fix that first.

By ordinary workers and the poor taking the brunt of it, while rich people take more and more for themselves? Marvellous.

The reason I belive unions are outdated is the fact that they don't represent the working man, they represent their members. Far better for the unions to be marginalised and the working people to be represented by ...umm I don't know ....the Labour party? (or substitute party of your choice). That is what democracy is about.

The Labour Party doesn't represent working people - we have no real choice, the system is broken.

"Are you seriously trying to argue that the net effect of the industrial revolution was a negative one? Really? If so, I give up!"

If you managed to infer that from what I said, I advise you to enrol on a remedial English comprehension course.

Frodo - Member

This is all very silly is it not? Can we all take a reality check, now is not the time to be idelogical. The nation is broke and we need to fix that first.

Thi is simply not true. You need to start from a point of truth - the idea that we are broke is a lie put around by ideologically driven right wingers that far too many of you have swallowed

"The Labour Party doesn't represent working people - we have no real choice, the system is broken."

As an examination of the shadow cabinet shows. The days of working class people becoming Labour MPs are long gone.

Ransos that is correct, registrars paid less, fact. Guess all them medics have wasted time with their fancy book learning all those years.

Not justifying the seniors salary but wonder why should they be penalised when they run departments, have responsibilty for large budgets, and many peoples lives in their hands and have spent 15-20yrs acheiving thier specialist status?

Pilots earn less for ****s sake

Indeed - clearly pilots should get three times as much, cos they have to steer up and down, AND left and right, as well as start and stop 😀

Tube drivers are in the top 10% on income.

How about if you make the top 10%? The ASHE figures reveal that a salary of £44,881 is enough to just edge into that top bracket.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8151355.stm

"Ransos that is correct, registrars paid less, fact. Guess all them medics have wasted time with their fancy book learning all those years."

Erm, where did I disagree?

Sorry turning round from nights so read that 'I think that's wrong' as disagreeing, oops. Must read more carefully but find the smudge I leave on the screen when I follow the words with my finger messy. 🙂

You need to start from a point of truth - the idea that we are broke is a lie put around by ideologically driven right wingers that far too many of you have swallowed

We are quite a bit in debt though

http://www.debtbombshell.com/britains-budget-deficit.htm

Ransos, I totally agree with you GPs are over paid.
Also dangerously bad at their jobs. (in my experience at least)
and the labour party is just another bunch of Westminster cronies looking out for their own, with a leader who has never worked in his life and has no idea what life is like in the real world, and you can replace Labour with conservative, Lib Dem, etc etc.

That's ok!

What I think's wrong is that GPs earn twice as much (or more) as registrars. I think it could be more evenly distributed, no?

the idea that we are broke is a lie put around by ideologically driven right wingers that far too many of you have swallowed

TJ - in the past year, we have borrowed over 130 [b]billion[/b] more than we took in taxes

I'd call that pretty flat on your arse 🙄

Absolutely, but as I said in my earlier ranty post they managed to get a very nice contract signed off by government a couple of years ago so we need to find another way to rebalance this until time to renegotiate their contracts and then it can be redressed by either changing payscale or upping their work commitments to earn it.

"We are quite a bit in debt though"

Your link refers to the deficit, not debt. And it tells us that the deficit under labour was usually lower than it was under the preceeding conservative government.

Deficit means our debt is increasing which is quite a bad thing really - especially as it's increasing so dramatically. A pound saved is a pound earned....

Ransos:

If you really can't see that the weak state of unions in the private sector is a significant reason that employers are driving down on terms and conditions, there's no hope for you.

This may be true (to an extent) but is a very narrow perspective. Perhaps the starting point would be to ask why unions have been marginalised by their ex-members and the law in the private sector? Perhaps private sector workers realise that they are an anachronism?

Maybe terms and conditions would improve if we educated our young people correctly, gave them correct skills in order to make them of more value to employers? And that is a X-political party comment BTW.

And if GPs/ consultants earned a little less, we could pay registrar doctors more appropriately.

1. Who determines what is appropriate?
2. Consultants are allowed to operate (no pun intended) in a market that allows correct pricing of their skills and values. Others are not - whose fault is that?

As an examination of the shadow cabinet shows. The days of working class people becoming Labour MPs are long gone.

Prescott has a lot to answer for!

And it tells us that the deficit under labour was usually lower than it was under the preceeding conservative government.

As a %age of GDP though, not in absolute figures! also worth noting that national debt still fell under Thatcher, reduced from 43% of GDP to 25% - and we're now back up to 76%.

GDP can go down as well as up!

Ransos ...the point is during the boom years we spent at an unsustainable rate. I.e. we spent more than we earned. This only made the fall bigger and harder when it eventually came. GB's famous no more boom and bust for a smokescreen of I'll pretend there isn't a problem, by the time Joe Public works this out I'll be long gone!

TJ - The debt is real and dangerous. Whatever your ideology or politics the public sector has to be scaled back to s sustainable level. I'm not a right winger, banker or other such idealist. I can just see the writing on the wall.

This is all very silly is it not?

Can we all take a reality check, now is not the time to be idelogical. The nation is broke and we need to fix that first.

The reason I belive unions are outdated is the fact that they don't represent the working man, they represent their members.

Far better for the unions to be marginalised and the working people to be represented by ...umm I don't know ....the Labour party? (or substitute party of your choice). That is what democracy is about.

(btw when I referred to the unions and industricl revolution I was referring to the movement which started in the industrial revolution and not a specific union).

"Deficit means our debt is increasing which is quite a bad thing really - especially as it's increasing so dramatically. A pound saved is a pound earned.... "

You could, for example, increase public spending, in order to get people back into work, who will then pay tax, spend more, etc. The are pros and cons to this approach, but it's not necessarily true that a pound saved is a pound earned when running the economy.