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Bob seems to be crowing a bit there.
Sounds fair enough. It's expensive living in London
I don't think I would be comfortable of having the sort of people poverty wages would attract in charge of the lives of several hundred passengers.
😯
£46,000pa is poverty wages?
I don't think I would be comfortable of having the sort of people poverty wages would attract in charge of the lives of several hundred passengers.
Because the £46k they're on right now is real breadline stuff.
Cool! They'll be able to go and celebrate by quaffing champagne. Its ok if they're still pissed up to **** when they get into work! If they try to sack anyone for it, Bob Crow will call a strike in solidarity with the slighted comrade, and bring the tube to a standstill.
Then appear on the news, baffled that not everyone in the country is offering their unqualified support for this action. The fascist bastards!!!
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[i]That if once you have paid him the Danegeld,
???You never get rid of the Dane.[/i]
Is that £46k salary, or what they can earn?
As they are two different things in my book - many years ago I managed to double my salary through overtime and call-out - worked a lot of bloody hours though.
I'm quite surprised that in this day and age that tube trains even need drivers.
IanMunro - Member
I'm quite surprised that in this day and age that tube trains even need drivers.
Three little letters for you....
D
L
R
😉
There is a zero tolerance policy with regards to D&A at LU - not something most of you IT warriors would know about. Its a good deal for the drivers - but then that's what being in a union is for isn't it?
cfh - assuming that you know anything about signalling (which I know that as a former windsurfing instructor you must have an enormous knowledge of) - just give us an idea as to the cost of making all the trains driverless?
but then that's what being in a union is for isn't it?
No - that's what working for the public sector who you can hold to ransom is for.
I think tube and train drivers deserve a decent wage but some of the stuff they've striked over in the last 10 years have been insane.
Windsurfing instructor? eh?
I haven't a clue how much that would cost, to be honest, and it really wouldn't bother me. It would be money well spent to get the Tube to run more efficiently.
Making the tube work more efficiently - lots of money.
Pissing off Bob Crow - priceless.
Yes, that too! 🙂
Anyone know how many 'jumpers' a tube driver drives into per 10 years/career? I bet that's hard to put a price on.
EDIT: isn't the internet great? [url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2008/apr/23/railtravel.transport ]Apparently an average of one every 10 years.[/url]
At a very rough estimate upgrading all the lines to driverless operation would cost more than the 2002-09 PPP contract in its entirety - sounds like an ace use of money to me, but then ideologically I'm not into your kind of thing - certainly the Tories I used to work for recognised that knowing the value of things was better than just the cost...
Gawdon Bennet! - look at the boat on that Crow geezer
Ok, here we go, and I'm expecting to get slaughtered now 🙂
I work for LUL (not a train driver).
46k is what they earn, no overtime is available as they are only allowed to work a certain number of hours a week (although they do get an overtime payment when the service is disrupted and they finish work late).
epicyclo: I think that the point you are making is that they are of a fairly high standard? if so you'd be right.
They train for about six months in driving and the train's systems, as they have to be able to get it moving if it breaks down in the tunnel. The selection process is pretty tough and most people fail during the tests (tough ones as well) and interview. having someone who is a bit 'off the wall' is not an option in charge of 700 passengers on a train in a tunnel!
Binners: Quaffing champagne would be lovely but the rules on drinking are very strict, you're not even supposed to go on licensed premises with uniform on. You can only have 7 units of alcohol the day before work (zero in the 8 hours prior to work) and can be tested anytime. Instant dismissal for anyone over the limit.
Bob Crow is a knob.
His public persona is hideous, but the RMT union is very effective (I'm in the other union as I got embarrassed at being associated with Crow). I've spoken to a lot of people such as coppers and NHS staff that wished they had a union like the RMT.
Anyone know how many 'jumpers' a tube driver drives into per 10 years/career? I bet that's hard to put a price on.EDIT: isn't the internet great? Apparently an average of one every 10 years.
Personally I feel more sorry for the Ambulance Technicians and Paramedics who have to go under said trains after they've hit someone to try and save their lives, however futile it may be, while being paid just over 50% of what the tube drivers are earning.
That's hard to put a price on.
[i]Anyone know how many 'jumpers' a tube driver drives into per 10 years/career? I bet that's hard to put a price on.[/i]
Another good reason for not having drivers - reduction in trauma.
Can't we just tarmac over the rails and stick a bunch of these down there?
wisepranker, +1.
Ditto the pay for soldiers, firemen, nurses etc.
Tube drivers are massively over paid.
Ian, you can't do that I'm afraid, as it would be "ideologically" wrong apparently.
The RMT said the issue of a payment for working during next year's Olympic Games in London was separate to the four-year wage deal.
Oh, the poor lambs have to work during the Olympics. Just when they're supposed to be, errrrr, working.
Tube drivers are well paid, it's the others that are underpaid.
Tubes could run with no drivers on, but they are usually the first reponse to ill passengers/lost kids/fights/robberies, and the suicides.
Tube staff have to go under the trains as well. Who would slam the brakes on when someone tries to commit suicide? It happens a lot more than the general public realise as most 'jumpers' get away with it.
I wouldn't go on an underground train with no driver/staff. too much to go wrong.
Re the suicide issue - Simple(ish) fix. Install doors, as on the majority of the Jubilee line platforms.
Wouldn't bother me unduly for £50k a year.Anyone know how many 'jumpers' a tube driver drives into per 10 years/career? I bet that's hard to put a price on.
I see worse shit on a regular basis for 1/2 of that on my basic wage.
spursn17 - Member
...epicyclo: I think that the point you are making is that they are of a fairly high standard? if so you'd be right...
Exactly. Pay a decent wage and get a higher standard of candidate which means you can have a rigorous selection system to end up with the best.
Does anyone here really want to be on a tube train driven by a thick numpty?
Yup, platform edge doors would help.
Unfortunately they don't just do it off of platforms. Spme jump off bridges in the open sections, they also climb over the fences and run up and down the track waiting for their chance. Desparate people can be very inventive.
How much should supply and demand influence salaries? We get complaints about over paid tube drivers and bankers but also underpaid teachers and firemen. How do we decide what is fair?
Pay a decent wage and get a higher standard of candidate which means you can have a rigorous selection system to end up with the best.
So you reckon the standard would drop significantly if they were only paid £40k?
How much does a thick numpty typically earn?
[i] Who would slam the brakes on when someone tries to commit suicide? It happens a lot more than the general public realise as most 'jumpers' get away with it.[/i]
It's a relatively trivial bit of image processing to spot objects on the line. And not beyond the means of man to track the vectors of humans on a platform and anticipate any that are are about to jump. Probably a lot simpler just to not allow passengers access to the track at stations in the first place though.
they are usually the first reponse to ill passengers/lost kids/fights/robberies, and the suicides.
Really? I've seen drivers refuse to get out of the cab when there's been problems. They just sat there and called the control room and asked them to send police/medical help/power rangers. Usually the first response is another passenger or station staff.
I wish my union was that effective.
Me too 😀
Ditto
Tube drivers are massively over paid.
How much do you earn a year, and for doing what? Does your job involve having to be responsible for the safety of thousands and thousands of people per day, having to have knowledge of life-saving techniques, as well as countless bits of safety equipment, being drilled for emergency situations such as terrorist attacks etc (which actually do happen on the Tube, in case you weren't aware), etc etc etc?
No, din't think so. You're probbly just peed off cos people who you consider to be inferior to yourself earn decent wages. Or maybe you're angry cos they actually earn more than you do, and you think it's just jolly unfair that oiks dare to command a higher salary than you can? After all what mummy and daddy did for you, too?
I am well pleased the drivers get paid a decent amount for what they do. Speshly if it pees off some people on here. That's an added bonus, in my book. 😀
How much does a thick numpty typically earn?
I don't know, cos you jolly well have not told us what your salary is.
[b]elfinsafely[/b] - Member
Gawdon Bennet! - look at the boat on that Crow geezer
Ah, how sweet!
I'm so flattered. Thank you sooo much! 😀
Good for them.
It's a blue collar v white collar thing. White collar man wants more money, he asks politely then thinks about proving that he's worth more by seeking alternative employment. Blue collar man gets all his mates to gang up and start a fight; it's a bit like proving you support then best football team by beating up the other teams' supporters. Innit.
It isnt that the RMT is a particularly clever or powerful union, the Tube is an essential service that is particularly vulnerable to a very few individuals withdrawing their labour. Only takes a couple of hundred well drilled union members to walk off the job and a service that the whole city depends on comes to a grinding halt.
But, we the customer will have the last laugh. Driverless trains are coming, we can all wave bye bye to that ignorant thug Crow and his merry men. He admits freely he hasnt the slightest concern about delivering a good service to London, with him his priorities begin and end with his members.
In the long run they're all heading for the scrap heap.
Platform edge doors on every station? sheesh - even cfh's stipend won't cover that.
1. rebuilding platforms at about 263 stations - or would you only do this at S12 stations? licks first finger on right hand and waves it in the very slight breeze - lets say a nice round £1bn
2. new signalling systems on all tracks except for Jubilee - I don't think I've got enough lick today to get anywhere near this figure
3. closure of the entire Underground network (except for half the Jubilee line) whilst cfh's inspired decision is implemented - oh about £40bn of additional costs to business a year
sounds ideal, lets go for it
I'm quite surprised that in this day and age that tube trains even need drivers.
I seem to recall reading that several of the LU lines are now automated, e.g. the Victoria (since 1968?), Central, at least parts of the Jubilee and I think the Northern. The role of the "driver" is to open and close the doors.
In other parts of the world they seem to manage without any drivers, e.g. parts of the Paris metro. I've been on several of these and curiously I haven't died yet.
Does your job involve having to be responsible for the safety of thousands and thousands of people per day, having to have knowledge of life-saving techniques, as well as countless bits of safety equipment, being drilled for emergency situations such as terrorist attacks etc (which actually do happen on the Tube, in case you weren't aware), etc etc etc?
Yes.
He admits freely he hasnt the slightest concern about delivering a good service to London, with him his priorities begin and end with his members.
Well yes because that's his job - he's not in charge of the underground system is he.
To all those complaining on here - tell us how much you earn and what you do. Then we can judge if you're worth it or not.
I suspect most people here are paid based on demand and supply. Most tube train drivers are paid based on the strength of the union so it's not really the same thing is it?
Drac; the question was aimed at Flashy.
I think it's fantastic that at least some workers have a strong union who can fight their corner. I'd love to see many more professions benefit similarly. Especially paramedics, nurses, firefighters etc.
To all those complaining on here - tell us how much you earn and what you do. Then we can judge if you're worth it or not.
I woon't expect to be overwhelmed with responses if I were you. I suspect that the loudest shouters will probbly go quite once they've bin challenged. It's what usually happens on here.
But, we the customer will have the last laugh. Driverless trains are coming, we can all wave bye bye to that ignorant thug Crow and his merry men.
What you might find useful, is to pay attention to what someone like aP is saying, cos, like, he might know just a teeny bit more about stuff like that than you do.
The DLR is 'driverless', but still has a Passenger Service Operator on board each train, who has to sometimes drive the train manually if there's problems with the automated system. Which happens quite often, probbly several times a day. Also they have to carefully monitor the doors when opening and closing. The trains do not move until they have performed various safety tasks.
I suspect most people here are paid based on demand and supply. Most tube train drivers are paid based on the strength of the union so it's not really the same thing is it?
Tube drivers are paid according to the terms they've negotiated, just like everyone else.
I suspect most people here are paid based on demand and supply. Most tube train drivers are paid based on the strength of the union so it's not really the same thing is it?
Well, you have to wonder who the numptys really are, don't you? I doubt that many people outside 'fodder' jobs are truly paid on a supply and demand basis.
I sometimes wonder how complicit LUL or whatever it's called now is in all of this. I think they quite like having a bogey man round to heap blame on now and again.
Drac; the question was aimed at Flashy.
Why can't I answer though, I earn less than 50k and do all those things.
To all those complaining on here - tell us how much you earn and what you do. Then we can judge if you're worth it or not.
Paramedic, well I'm a Paramedic but also a manger I currently have 12 staff and may be getting more. Current wage is around £42,500 with shift allowances. A good wage I know but you did ask.
Tube drivers are paid according to the terms they've negotiated, just like everyone else
Seems like their negotiation is based on intimidation.
As for my salary, it's about 1/3 of what I get billed out at - underpaid?
I think it's fantastic that at least some workers have a strong union who can fight their corner. I'd love to see many more professions benefit similarly. Especially paramedics, nurses, firefighters etc.
I believe they do. Mate is an operations manager for London ambulance- there's a threat/ expectation of a walkout because the ambulance crews want to retain the right to return to their home station for breaks rather than take them at the nearest trust property, ffs.
"Seems like their negotiation is based on intimidation.
As for my salary, it's about 1/3 of what I get billed out at - underpaid?"
Their negotiation is based on their market position.
At risk of playing devil's advocate, £50k a year working in London isn't that much, considering they spend all day cooped up with little to no natural daylight and are responsible for the lives of thousands of passengers.
If anyone thinks it's easy money for sitting on their backside all day, and anyone could do it, why don't [i]you[/i] go and be a tube driver? I'm not advocating that their pay is right or wrong, it's what they negotiated though so they're entitled to it.
Drac, I'm not saying you're not worth it, and neither is Cheryl Cole. Quite the opposite in fact. I'd be happy for folk like you to be paid double, treble what you get, for the job youse do, because it's a vital and incredibly important one. I don't think your value to society is rewarded adequately.
Separated at birth?
Martin Jol
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Bob Crow
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why don't you go and be a tube driver
There's a lot of competition you know.
Oh, how unreasonable to want to return to the station where your sandwiches (or whatever else you have taken in to eat) actually is. FYI, you are not allowed to carry food on ambulances, for obvious reasons.because the ambulance crews want to retain the right to return to their home station for breaks rather than take them at the nearest trust property, ffs.
This would leave you 1/2 hour to get to a shop and buy and eat your meal - which you would have to do twice in a 12 hour+ shift.
nice chap, that Bob Crow
Tube drivers are paid according to the terms they've negotiated, just like everyone else.
Unlike the rest of us who use our talent to find jobs that pay well! Collective pay negotiations are a relic of the past and allow unions to unfairly hold the coutry to ransom.
Time to move on and consign unions to the bin, they've had their time.
Drac, I'm not saying you're not worth it, and neither is Cheryl Cole. Quite the opposite in fact. I'd be happy for folk like you to be paid double, treble what you get, for the job youse do, because it's a vital and incredibly important one. I don't think your value to society is rewarded adequately.
Yup I see that but I'd thought I'd point it out for others too.
because the ambulance crews want to retain the right to return to their home station for breaks rather than take them at the nearest trust property, ffs.
There's a lot more to it than that, either your Friend hasn't explained it to you or you didn't take notice. Woody has covered part of it but it was also in the agreement brought in by Agenda for Change. If they don't meet that agreement then they have to compensate.
The militant head of the Rail, Maritime and Transport union (RMT) is [b]believed[/b] to pay half the market rate for his taxpayer-subsidised house
Note the 'believed' bit. IE, there's no actual facts or owt here.
Can't see the bit where he's doing owt illegal, either. Can you?
And as for the 'market rate' bit, well, London housing is vastly overpriced anyway. Don't really get the 'taxpayer subsidised' bit either; he pays full rent, and his council tax and all his income tax etc, so probbly contributing more than he's being 'subsidised' by....
If you're going to post cobblers, at least make it entertaining cobblers....
The Victoria Line is/was automated - IIRC it's also the most reliable line....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_line
IIRC the Unions campaigned against replacing the (automated) rolling stock with automated trains... for obvious reasons.
"Unlike the rest of us who use our talent to find jobs that pay well! Collective pay negotiations are a relic of the past and allow unions to unfairly hold the coutry to ransom."
There's nothing remotely unfair about it. They are in a position of strength, and use that strength to negotiate their deal.
Please don't tell me you actually believe that people are paid according to their talents?! People are paid according to what their employer can get away with. So, unless you view a race to the bottom as a good thing, you'll recognise the value of collective bargaining.
Still needs an 'operator' though dun't it?
for obvious reasons.
And what would they be, then?
Sorry, but as someone not expert in the operation of passenger tube trains, I don't know such things and they aren't at all 'obvious' to me....
Please don't tell me you actually believe that people are paid according to their talents?! People are paid according to what their employer can get away with.
Same thing isn't it? Well for those without bullying unions who can force payment to be above talent levels.
Driverless trains are coming,
they have been saying that for 30 years, it would cost billions upon billions and will not happen for at least 50 years. Due to costs and safety issues.
Are they the same 'bullying' unions which have historically fought for better pay and conditions for all workers, racial and sexual equality in the workplace, rights for those with disabilities, etc?
And, seeing as it's quite topical, the same sort of 'bullying' unions which helped organise [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street ]the resistance against facism at Cable St in 1936[/url]?
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"Same thing isn't it? Well for those without bullying unions who can force payment to be above talent levels."
Again, you seem to hold the mistaken belief that the world of work is a meritocracy.
No I don't recognise the benefits of collective bargaining!
Effectively it allows select groups of people to hold a city/coutry/industry to ransom for pay that is whey above the skills of their peers. I do not see anything remorely fair about that.
So if your a cleaner or librarian say you can strike but the impact is very low. However if you can bring the tube network to a stop you have huge leverage. They are not renumerated for their skills, rather their ability to wreak havoc on the capital.
Its all well saying their a decent sort ..they should be paid double ...but where so you stop? The economy is not growing; wage inflation increases real inflation. The losers of the average person on the street.
We can't all have pay rises. Anything of RPI + 0% is exceptionally good and better than the vast majority of the population. Like it or not the economy has been unsustainable for a number of years and our standard of living HAS to reduce. I believe that we ALL need to play our part in this.
Legislation has caught up, we're all forced to be quite nice now 😉
"Are they the same 'bullying' unions which have historically fought for better pay and conditions for all workers, racial and sexual equality in the workplace, rights for those with disabilities, etc?"
Well, quite. It seems that some on here are quite happy to enjoy the benefits fought for by unions, but can't bring themselves to shell out a few pennies on their oyster cards.
Again, you seem to hold the mistaken belief that the world of work is a meritocracy.
It is though the unskilled don't do so well - just hard to compare skills so we let demand and supply sort that out. Well apart from where the strong unions are.
"Effectively it allows select groups of people to hold a city/coutry/industry to ransom for pay that is whey above the skills of their peers. I do not see anything remorely fair about that."
There is nothing fair about anything other than a complete meritocracy. We don't have a meritocracy, so it's down to the workers to negotiate the best deal they can. That's what the tube drivers are doing. I don't see why people are up in arms about a group of workers behaving exactly the same as everyone else.
Collective pay negotiations are a relic of the past and allow unions to unfairly hold the coutry to ransom.Time to move on and consign unions to the bin, they've had their time.
YOu think employers would not pay less if people were not organised?.
Fantasy land stuff tbh. If employers were as you say unions would never have been created and the powers would not have banned them initially and treated members so badly including deportation.
You object because they work. However strong a union is the bosses still have more
"It is though the unskilled don't do so well - just hard to compare skills so we let demand and supply sort that out. Well apart from where the strong unions are."
So if your job is outsourced to China to cut costs, presumably you won't mind? It's supply and demand, after all.