[Closed] Have we done the (motor) cyclist getting run over in London video yet?

😯

😯

That's pretty bloody scary for the rider!

Is it wrong that the only thing from that that really stuck in my mind was how funny he sounded with the video in reverse?

I can't believe her reversed and did it again.

no interest in the rider at all by the dick driver, went to check his truck.

was watching this earlier. Pretty crap driving by the Selco driver. Bless the lady who had a go at the driver and gave the rider a hug 😀

Also watched one of his other videos about other people bad driving on roads but spotted him undertake a moving car at a crossing on the zig zags. tut tut

You can see that he is bang in the front pillar blind spot most of the way through that maneouvre. Scary. Could easily have been the granny and the pushchair.

Then again, if you're going to drive something that needs such a wide line on corners, there's got to be some way of sticking your head sideways and getting a view.

The most good-natured nearly-crushed-to-death road-user award?

how can something like that be allowed on the roads with such a huge blindspot, especially in London?

😮

Further evidence that HGVs and lorries with massive blindspots have no place in cities and busy residential areas.

He was lucky it was only his bike that went under those wheels, particularly as the driver then reverses without finding out if there is anyone under the truck!

Shit driving, but is it only me that thought the rider could have moved too, onto the other side of the road, but became a bit fixated by 'surely he must have seen me by now'

it only me that thought the rider could have moved too, onto the other side of the road, but became a bit fixated by 'surely he must have seen me by now'

From the video timeline he has four seconds from when the truck starts to turn to when it hits him.

That's not a lot of time to realise what's happening, get over the initial disbelief factor, decide on a plan and implement it.

get over the initial disbelief factor

And I think that's something that people forget - it's a very common/natural reaction - the whole "he must have seen me, no surely, no, shit!"

That's not a lot of time to realise what's happening, get over the initial disbelief factor, decide on a plan and implement it.

This +1

I had a bump in my boat the other week and put a fairly substantial hole in the other boat. There was about 4 seconds between the "WTF are they doing" moment and the collision, during which I got it wrong and made things worse by trying to avoid them. At least by staying still he gave the driver a chance to see him and react.

That's not a lot of time to realise what's happening, get over the initial disbelief factor, decide on a plan and implement it.

Conversely, if someone pulled out on you at say 40mph and you were 4 seconds = 71mtrs (without any braking) I'd reckon you'd have 'plenty' of time to "realise what's happening, get over the initial disbelief factor, decide on a plan and implement it"

Probably because the getting over the disbelief gets short circuited in that situation and it's just 'see, decide, do'

Not criticising the rider at all, it just illustrates what they say about assuming the worst in all cases, better to take action to avoid something that didn't happen than not take action because you couldn't believe it was about to. Which as a cycle commuter has saved my bacon a few times, when the unbelievable happened.

Motorbikes really aren't very easy to maneouvre at low speed compared to push-bikes. He can't just pull the front wheel up, plant it at 90 degrees and get out of the way.

I wouldn't go onto the RH side of the road either - that's where truck-boy is going.

Not so easy to just drop it and leg it either.

[i]Conversely, if someone pulled out on you at say 40mph and you were 4 seconds = 71mtrs (without any braking) I'd reckon you'd have 'plenty' of time to "realise what's happening, get over the initial disbelief factor, decide on a plan and implement it"[/i]

And he probably expected the driver to either stop or move to the other side of the road, not carry on towards him.

I was riding home last year on a wide cycle path, I usually stick to the left hand side of the path. Saw someone coming towards me on my left, thought they'll probably move over, as we got closer he didn't move and clearly wasn't looking ahead so I moved to the middle of the path with plenty room for him to pass, he looked up at the last second, decided to move to the right side and moved straight into my path. He came off much worse than me.

Probably because the getting over the disbelief gets short circuited in that situation and it's just 'see, decide, do'

Yep, but I think the big difference is that someone pulling out on you is something you are mentally prepared for. It is probably a situation you have seen before, you are aware it can happen, and so you recognise it much more quickly and already have a plan. In fact you were probably already watching them in case they pulled out.

Whereas this is a novel situation with an unusual and unexpected hazard.

Sitting calmly watching the video, where you know what is going to happen, it's easy to say he should have dodged onto the other side of the road but from his point of view that is where the truck was heading so that's another little assessment and mental leap he needs to do in the short time available.

someone pulling out on you is something you are mentally prepared for

That's my point. As a vulnerable road user you have to be mentally prepared for 'everything' - even the 'surely he's not going to' scenario. I'm convinced it's a state of mind*, some seem to have it and others don't, evidenced by the number of arguments that start when videos of crashes get posted on here and people start saying 'why didn't they just....' or 'they shouldn't have been.....' and others respond with 'they shouldn't need to....'

* paranoia mainly 😉

Lorries like that will be no longer be sold when the new EU rules come in in 2023 (? I think).

The new lorries will have lower cabs, with less blindspots - like bin lorries are now.

Bad driving by the lorry. If he knew he had to take up the whole road,he should have been checking down the road.

The bike couldn't move and he did a good job of actually getting out of the way

I wouldn't go onto the RH side of the road either - that's where truck-boy is going.

'surely he must have seen me by now'

The bike had had to stop short probably not in the right gear, and not moving forward.
He was (at that moment) riding quite steady, oddly enough if he had been ragging it he would have been able to go round the truck.

But, how many wrong choices did the driver make.
Even assuming the biker he could see was the rider and not the pillion!

Very poor driving, he needs some serious training.

new EU rules come in in 2023

Not soon enough.

Rider was buggered in that situation, the only way out of the danger was backwards, and bikes don't do reverse gears.

As a vulnerable road user you have to be mentally prepared for 'everything' - even the 'surely he's not going to' scenario. I'm convinced it's a state of mind

I agree that "everyone is a moron and/or trying to kill me" is a pretty good way to stay alive, but you can't go around [i]"mentally prepared for 'everything'"[/i] at all times, no matter how unlikely. That would be exhausting!

Also bear in mind that in those four seconds he [i]did[/i] react and take action: he shouted (and probably waved) then opted for a quick stunt roll to get the hell out of there.

He saved himself from serious injury, which is surely the main goal.

Lorries like that will be no longer be sold when the new EU rules come in in 2023 (? I think).

Poor bike

He was remarkably calm in that situation .. considering the reaction of the driver I think he let him off lightly.

It's very easy to play woulda-coulda-shoulda with the luxury of hindsight. Fact is, there's very little time between "oh shit, he's not actually going to stop" and "crunch." Dropping the bike was actually pretty quick thinking.

In all honesty I'm not entirely sure what I'd have done differently in that situation, even given thinking time. I'd bet half of the keyboard warriors on YouTube would've been under the wheels along with the bike.

That's annoyed me so much I have had to email Selco.

That would be exhausting!

That's why the 'everything' is in commas, but yes, it is. The last 2 miles of my commute through town are far harder mentally than the 10 miles of country roads where generally the only hazards are people passing too close and the odd side road. I've had all sorts, people stepping out without looking, car doors (they hurt and always get a wide berth now) lane changes when you're 'safely' filtering, dogs escaping from kids clutches, footballs....... it's 100% concentration.

The thing is - as a car driver we should be giving the same level of attention, but we don't, we're reading the newspaper / on the phone / applying makeup / singing / eating breakfast.......I've seen them all. Because the penalty for failure when in your safety box is almost entirely on the other party. And while no-one [u]wants[/u] to run a dog or a kid over........

Anyway, going off topic now, will duck out here.

That's my point. As a vulnerable road user you have to be mentally prepared for 'everything' - even the 'surely he's not going to' scenario. I'm convinced it's a state of mind*, some seem to have it and others don't, evidenced by the number of arguments that start when videos of crashes get posted on here and people start saying 'why didn't they just....' or 'they shouldn't have been.....' and others respond with 'they shouldn't need to....'

While I agree with the premise of assuming everyone is out to kill you. Braking because someone cut you up/pulled out is entirely different. As you said, you're already anticipating someone doing something stupid like that, and your reaction time is about 0.5s between registering what's going on and hitting the brakes. But crucially you never had to make a decision, it's a reaction.

In the video they see the truck coming, react to that by stopping. Then there's 3 choices, 1 try and ride up the kerb on the left, 2 stay still, 3 turn right. Even watching that from my desk I've no real idea how wide he's going to swing, is he going to mount the kerb too, how quickly will he swing back onto the other side, does he think it's a 1 way street and isn't even looking for me? If he swings back to his side what arc will his rear wheels take (it'll be a lot tighter, will there be any room at all?). If the driver had got it right his rear wheels would presumably have made a very tight arc round the corner, so there would have been no room there either?

And you've got only about 2seconds to do all that after you've made the initial decision to stop and wait for him to see you.

I suspect if you went right you'd have gone under his rear wheels, you'd be in the same position as those that die filtering inside similar lorries turning left.

Ahh.. YouTube comments.

I think the most disturbing one (with multiple +1 likes) is:

There is a reason insurance is mandatory. They'll pay for this, but if they fired drivers for every little scrape, then nobody would be driving anywhere.

Sums up a lot about the general attitude to driving these days.

Insurance is just one more thing that safely insulates drivers from the consequence of their own actions.

That's annoyed me so much I have had to email Selco.

WTF ??

Pretty shocking video

Good reaction from the biker
Very poor reaction from the driver

I was very impressed with his dismount of the bike. Getting off a bike isn't the easiest thing to do quickly, especially when there's no stand. And it's not something you practice! It's just a massively panicked exit from the bike I guess

I assume the Police are going to be involved and the driver will be losing his licence and never to be allowed to drive a truck again? He clearly wasn't looking where he was going if he ran straight into the biker like that...

Also, note total lack of emotion from him... maybe he was in shock but he didn't look like a man who realised he nearly crushed another man to death... not ideal to be driving a truck like that in London if you don't understand the implications of getting it wrong...

FWIW the assumption that all the people around you are about to do the very stupidest thing they can think of, has kept me safe so far. e.g. if there's a vehicle in a side road coming up to the junction and you're on the main road, take primary, make eye contact, clear yourself of their A pillar blind spot and give yourself space in case they pull straight out... as indeed many do. ie: never just ride on past, assuming they're going to stay put.

In London you do need your wits about you, I'll admit... there's too much going on for even the most skilled driver to pay attention to...

<edit> cameras are doing a great job of highlighting how lousy the quality of driving is in the UK... the more stuff like this gets uploaded and shared, the more pressure builds to get it dealt with... it takes it above the level of individual anecdotes and provides proof...

[i]That's annoyed me so much I have had to email Selco.[/i]

You are joking right?

Drivers mistake was not looking into the road before turning into it. Happens a lot. I had a serious go at a woman yesterday who came flying out of a T-Junction at 20+mph having only looked left and nearly wiped me out.

Comments from the motorcyclist on YouTube:

Hey man, some of these comments are getting a bit out of hand...he is only human like the rest of us...believe me I'm far from perfect so I wouldn't want to see him in the shit because of this!
...
he was actually a very nice guy...very unfortunate incident and I bear no grudges! Lets all learn from this as it could have ended very differently!
...
I feel for the driver, he was actually a top bloke and unfortunately these things happen sometimes, I bear him no grudge and just hope we all improve our hazard awareness from this! 😀

Pitchforks down lads.

Cougar - Moderator

It's very easy to play woulda-coulda-shoulda with the luxury of hindsight. Fact is, there's very little time between "oh shit, he's not actually going to stop" and "crunch." Dropping the bike was actually pretty quick thinking.

Yep - in real time several seconds is bugger all.
I had a woman reverse into my car while stationary behind her in a cinema car park a few yrs back.
Looking back at it, I probably had enough time to stick it in reverse, look in my mirror and hoof it backwards.
But, in reality I saw her reverse light come on & there was a split second of 'uh-oh'......then I momentarily considered reverse but decided I didn't have time, so went for the horn and got a good 1-2 seconds of horn action before she hit me.
Even with a full blaring horn about 12ft behind her, she just kept coming backwards.

At the time I could see what was unfolding but there just wasn't enough time to react, make an adequate decision & execute it.
But, if I was sat in a car park & someone was to say they were going to
time how long it took me to go from first to reverse while stationary with foot on the clutch, look in my mirror & get the car moving, I reckon it would only be two seconds or so....

I think the motorcyclist did all he could realistically achieve in the timeframe.
Pat on the back to the lovely lady who gave him a hug!!

I momentarily considered reverse but decided I didn't have time, so went for the horn and got a good 1-2 seconds of horn action before she hit me.

That was probably the best thing to do.

By staying still then the worst that happens is a low speed impact to your car. If you chose to slam it into reverse when you only had time for a brief mirror check in a cinema car park that likely has kids walking about then the consequences could be much worse.

(Interestingly the lorry driver in the video seems happy enough to slam it into reverse and back out onto the main road, potentially causing issues there and finishing off someone trapped under his wheels)

For the love of god, save the ohlins shock and the cans, then forget the chassis etc.

Ahh.. YouTube comments.

I think the most disturbing one (with multiple +1 likes) is:

Did you see the one from the "professional driver"? Lost his job because he'd run over a pedestrian illegally crossing the road (whatever that means) and... wait, let me C&P.

Thus.

cornwallbiker 1 day ago
MY GOD!!! What a ****ing idiot lose his licence and job for that I hope, what if kids were crossing the road? ****!

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Robert Volkox 5 hours ago
Why would you wish to anyone stuff like this?? I am a professional driver too and you are my friend the typical example of knob heads who have no idea of working out on the roads. If you are handling a 26 tonn vehicle every day and responsible for that many lives and things and you have to pay attention on everything, you have to make mistakes. Noone can stay 110% safe for long time. Good for you riders and cyclists, you don't have to be cautious because you don't even know about traffic just ****ing blame the working men. Drivers are not payed that well to take the blame. Also London sucks hairy balls to drive every day and its dangerous.
Reply ·

Robert Volkox 5 hours ago
And what happens to the driver? Let me tell you something. I've lost my job over bumping into a pedestrian who was crossing the road illegally. Thats what happens to us drivers. We take the blame don't worry, you bloodthirsty knob.

Grr. I'd have replied if, well, it wasn't YouTube comments.

I've seen a lot of stuff like that before.

It's weird that we just seem to accept enormous heavy vehicles with massive blindspots trundling through busy city centres when even their own drivers say that it is impossible to drive them safely in those conditions.

When I see this sort of thing (TfL advert):

[img] [/img]

I just think "Why the **** is that allowed on the road then?"

[quote=Cougar ]In all honesty I'm not entirely sure what I'd have done differently in that situation, even given thinking time. I'd bet half of the keyboard warriors on YouTube would've been under the wheels along with the bike.

+1 - for all those saying he "should have done", actually I reckon he did a remarkably good job walking away from that. I'm not sure I'd even go so far to say that I'd have done as well. Any possible alternative he had is laced with danger.

I'm not quite sure why because the biker is happy that he got away with it and the driver was nice that the driver shouldn't get a bit of enforced re-education. Though fundamentally, whilst the driver could have done a lot better the issue is still with the truck design.

Grr. I'd have replied if, well, it wasn't YouTube comments.

*no idea what they are, presumably this is in comparison to full on HGV drivers

[quote=GrahamS ]It's weird that we just seem to accept enormous heavy vehicles with massive blindspots trundling through busy city centres when even their own drivers say that it is impossible to drive them safely in those conditions.

As I wrote on the last thread I started on a similar subject, if the roads were designated as workplaces then the HSE would certainly be banning the use of such trucks.

Having watched it again, one thing he could have done to improve his chances is not check out the girl on the other side of the road when he was approaching a junction... (-:

I just think "Why the **** is that allowed on the road then?"

It's weird that we just seem to accept enormous heavy vehicles with massive blindspots trundling through busy city centres when even their own drivers say that it is impossible to drive them safely in those conditions.

Indeed. The suggestion there is a new set of trucks appearing in 2023 is great - but it is too far away.

I too also watched a truck pull into a car park, drive slowly round the corner and not see the Mondeo estate parked - smacked into it front bumper to side of car, and pushed it around the car park for 10m or so. I was sat next to the Mondeo's owner, who happened to be ex-traffic officer. 8)
The truck driver started by being all argumentative with me - only when my colleague re-appeared with a not pad and started inspecting the truck operating license did mr_trucker click something was 'different' about the owner of the car. I informed the driver of my friends old occupation. Suddenly mr_trucker was all sweetness and light. 😆

What it brought home was how you can hide an estate car from the driver of these vehicles, even when they are being careful and maneuvering carefully.

BBC coverage complete with dramatic infographic:

[img] [/img]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33622318

But while work is being done by industry to minimise the risk of these occurring, he says, "ultimately, many busy urban areas are just not fully compatible with this kind of vehicle".

from the article ^

Nail. Head.

well almost, it's not the areas that are incompatible with the vehicle, it's the vehicle that's incompatible with the busy urban area.

It doesn't matter how careful you are if you simply cannot fully see where you're going. Technology can and will help, but it needs to start at a design level when building the vehicle.

I have no malice towards the drivers, they are on whole doing very well at what is an incredibly difficult job of safely piloting these things around, and arguably a better job than your average car driver. The fault lies with the inappropriateness of the vehicle.

you genuinely don't have time to react I followed a lorry for about 1/2 a mile he suddenly stopped in front of me I stopped well behind he started to reverse I thought that's odd he carried on I sounded my horn he carried on I engaged reverse before I could move he hit my car then turned right off the road on to a side street he had over shot.

Similarly I had one in the right hand lane of three at a junction pull away and simply try to turn left over the top of my car when the lights changed .

You see these things coming but because they are not expected hazards like pulling out or swerving you consume valuable seconds trying to fit what you are seeing into the usual context.

High cab trucks are an example of profit before public safety if their drivers were being killed/put at risk because of the design at the sane rate of cyclist pedestrians and car drivers then HSE would have banned them years ago.

if their drivers were being killed/put at risk because of the design at the same rate of cyclist pedestrians and car drivers then HSE would have banned them years ago.

Perfectly put!

Think the biker needs more experience/training.

Here's another of his videos..

[quote=crankboy ]if their drivers were being killed/put at risk because of the design at the sane rate of cyclist pedestrians and car drivers then HSE would have banned them years ago.

+2 - an even better way of putting my usual comment

Here's another of his videos..

Checking out the girl at the crossing. Not the kind of bang he was imagining...

Think the biker needs more experience/training.

Oh I don't know, he got to chat with the pretty girl he was checking out on the crossing. Mission accomplished. 😀

Think he needs blinkers.

Why not make it compulsory for HGVs in town to have a co-driver, with suitably placed mirrors?

Should be compulsary to apologise if you've been an utter useless bastard and almost killed someone!

From the BBC article:

There's no suggestion that in this case the lorry driver was acting negligently. Indeed, it appears from the footage that, as he turned, he took pains to avoid his rear wheels mounting the pavement where a woman with a buggy was standing.
"It was the proper manoeuvre," says Melvyn Hodgetts, a former logistics safety director for Royal Mail.

Insane!

I see where the "HGVs should be banned from London" crowd are coming from now...

[i]I assume the Police are going to be involved and the driver will be losing his licence and never to be allowed to drive a truck again? He clearly wasn't looking where he was going if he ran straight into the biker like that...[/i]

With a comment like this I take it you've never been in a truck cab, and seen what they can see. You should take a look, the (lack of) visibility will scare you.

The biker was totally in his blindspot, although if the trucker had turned left by first pulling into his initial right-hand lane and then turned left he'd no doubt be worried that folk would be cycling up his inside. Which I guess is why he ended up where he did.

The biker though did the only thing possible, jump - anything else and he'd have probably come off worse. And bikes are easily fixed.

The biker though did the only thing possible, jump - anything else and he'd have probably come off worse. And bikes are easily fixed.

Relying on quick thinking by bikers to prevent themselves getting crushed in this situation is not really the answer is it?
a) it's victim blaming, the biker's road position was entirely legitimate and normal
b) it's not dealing with the source of the risk - a lorry too big to get round the corner without driving on the wrong side of the road

If a skilled driver can't operate a vehicle that size and design in that environment without creating that level of risk for legitimately-positioned oncoming traffic either means higher levels of training, redesign of the vehicle or size/length limit for vehicles in urban environments.

Saying bikes are easily fixed ignores the high chance that a less quick-off-the-mark rider may not have survived... and certainly is no basis for reducing the risk...

The reactions of the driver seem odd. Surely you approach the victim before checking the damage on the wagon. It struck me that he was quite stressed and wasn't thinking rationally. I'm not convinced he'd seen the rider by the time he was trying to reverse off the bike.

I drive a Renault Magnum which has a pretty high cab, and on the whole I find it easier to drive in busy situations than my skoda. Because I'm high up I can see over the white vans (and the blue ones), over walls. I can see the car slamming on the brakes 12 vehicles ahead of me. You're aware of the blind spots and so move and watch accordingly. They do become a problem when you're sat still because people can approach from those directions but again you're aware of this.

As you approach a situation like this you should be looking down the road you're about to turn into. What's ahead and behind you is already dealt with, logged in your mind. He couldn't take a wider swing because of the oncoming traffic on the main road so his concentration should've been on the side street. Whilst he would also be watching his tail swing he should have expected something to be there. Had he leaned forward in his seat he'd have had a good clear view as he begins the final approach. I wonder if he'd have even seen a car with the attention shown

Nobody think his

She hugs me ;o)

[quote=brooess ]

The biker though did the only thing possible, jump - anything else and he'd have probably come off worse. And bikes are easily fixed.

To be fair, I didn't read it that way - I think he's just agreeing with those of us who reckon the biker did the right thing (rather than for example riding onto the wrong side of the road as some have suggested).

I'm actually finding it quite hard to condemn the driver in the circumstances when clearly it's the truck design which is the major problem. However the truckers on here seem to agree with my feeling that he should have moved around in his seat in order to eliminate the blind spot (as indeed I find I have to do driving a modern car with thick pillars).

[quote=themightymowgli ]I drive a Renault Magnum

A dark coloured refrigerated truck?

Like the ice creams I'm partial to? No, a gurt red'un!

And I agree city trucks should be redesigned or have those wide angle looking glass things fitted to the ns window

I'm actually finding it quite hard to condemn the driver in the circumstances when clearly it's the truck design which is the major problem. However the truckers on here seem to agree with my feeling that he should have moved around in his seat in order to eliminate the blind spot (as indeed I find I have to do driving a modern car with thick pillars).

Truck design or no, he shouldn't be driving into an area he can't see. It really is that simple.

He came round the corner far too fast for something with supposedly such large blind spots (and I'm not convinced that he wouldn't have been able to see down the road through the side window before he turned given the angle he took through it, he probably just didn't look). Regardless of [i]why[/i] you can't see, the fact that you can't see means you should be taking exceptional care, especially if you have to encroach onto the wrong side of the road. Anything could have been there, what if that lass with the pram had arrived several seconds earlier?

Fair enough, it's a problem with the cab design. But the cab wasn't driving itself. If I smashed into something in the car because it was foggy, can I just go "oh, I couldn't see?" and blame the fog, or should I have been driving with appropriate caution for the conditions?

The fact that it's even suggested that it's a valid manoeuvre to plough blindly into a stationary vehicle on the wrong side of the road staggers me. If that's genuinely the case then they need taking off the road before they kill anyone else.

The biker was totally in his blindspot...