[Closed] Have we done the father takes council to court over school fine and wins yet?

I suggested (Albeit strongly) that you have a chip on your shoulder - which if you don't you do a great impression. That would be the only 'insult' I've made - insult singular not multiple. If I wanted to truly insult you I would not waste time making an aside - I would leave you in no doubt. Note, also I haven't cast any insults in the way of your children - and wouldn't. As for irony passing me by - can you not help being patronising?

I very much doubt there's anything you could say that I would find insulting.

You seem to take exception to what is quite obviously a construct made for the purpose of satirizing your overly-earnest self-justification. Unless your children really are called Cecily and Henry (in which case I shall be buying lottery tickets forthwith) then it's difficult to make any conclusion other than you trying extremely hard to find things to be offended about.

I wouldn't take my children out of school for a holiday.
We all value education yet it hardly sets a good example for them, sacking it off just to go on your jollies.

I'd simply choose a holiday I could afford.

The "setting a good example" aspect is obviously a concern.

But then I'm not sure that being a slave to the system and happily paying three times the odds for "a holiday I could afford" is a particularly great example either. 🙁

Smashing the system by taking a cheap holiday. Who knew it was so simple.

I'd simply choose a holiday I could afford

Just in case you missed it. I don't always get holidays when the schools are off.

France. See the image in the earlier posts.

It's the difference between a £2,760 holiday and a £7,436 holiday - same resort/hotel/flights.

£3k for a week in France!

Unless your children really are called Cecily and Henry

you missed Tarquin 😉

mine are going youth hosteling with their Dad, Mum won't slum it there so it's just me and the monsters

But then I'm not sure that being a slave to the system and happily paying three times the odds for "a holiday I could afford" is a particularly great example either

Rusty Spanner - Member

Serious answer:

Of course there are people with no choice.
Any system that punishes such people is ludicrous.
This needs saying?

However, people who use double standards to justify their selfishness should be fined.
It does have an effect on other students, not least the amount of time a teacher has to spend helping the child catch up.
Time usefully employed elsewhere.

Drac - Moderator

Just in case you missed it. I don't always get holidays when the schools are off.

Nope, I didn't miss it. Our circumstances are different. 🙂

£3k for a week in France!

Indeed. Bit nippy!

But £7.5k, if you decide not to "stick it to the man", is considerably nippier!

Hence the man sticking.

I very much doubt there's anything you could say that I would find insulting.

I wouldn't doubt it too much. I just generally try not to offend - please don't infer a lack of capability to offend through absence of evidence.

You seem to take exception to what is quite obviously a construct made for the purpose of satirizing your overly-earnest self-justification.

Overly-earnest? By whose standards?

Self-justification? I'm not justifying anything for myself at all. Not one thing. If you read my posts, I have said in summary:
1). Wouldn't take my children out of school again as I now have a greater appreciation of the disruption it could cause
2). Don't think fines are the answer to any type of absence
3). I can't pretend to understand everyone's circumstance
4). Some parents find it hard to get time together with their families
5). Education is not limited to the classroom
6). That you criticise others, implying bad parenting for taking action you wouldn't - without knowing their familial situation or parenting approach or capability

I have then taken issue with your 'construct' that I have spoilt, over-privileged children and am used to getting my own way due to a sense and reality of entitlement. You call it a construct I call it an insult - targeted at my children in part.

any conclusion other than you trying extremely hard to find things to be offended about.

Yes, you taking a cheap pot-shot at my children as a means to getting to me - offends me. Does that really surprise you?

Here is a radical idea. Try responding to what I have [i]actually[/i] written - rather than responding to [i]what you think I have written[/i] or you would [i]like me to have written[/i] to aid your intellectual 'construct'.

Maybe you could try being less generally objectionable - you may find life is better that way.

you missed Tarquin

Shsssssssssh. We don't talk about Tarquin. Ever.

Just listening to R4 - the whole glib "it doesn't make a difference if they miss a few days" thing makes my teeth itch. Who has responsibility for catching them back up?

been avoiding this thread but the report today has made me tip my 2p in:

I hate this 'let Head Teachers decide' thing.

It's a nightmare for them, as soon as they say yes to *anyone* for any reason the rest of the parents assume they have carte blanche to take kids out and kick off if they're refused.

Either it's always ok to take a kid out of school or it's not.

Allowing heads to 'exercise discretion' is just trying to make someone else take the blame for refusals.

I hate this 'let Head Teachers decide' thing.

It's a nightmare for them, as soon as they say yes to *anyone* for any reason the rest of the parents assume they have carte blanche to take kids out and kick off if they're refused.

Either it's always ok to take a kid out of school or it's not.

Surely you see the difference between a smart pupil with an otherwise perfect attendance record being taken out for the last week of term, and a pupil with poorer attendance who struggles a bit at school who want to go 4 weeks into the term?

I might also see a difference in letting an otherwise not particularly sporty/active pupil take time off for a ski trip, or the difference between visiting a significant family/cultural/religious event rather than simply sitting beside a pool.

Why would head teachers who know the pupils, know the planned learning that week and possibly even know the parents' circumstances not be in a position to form a judgement - or even to "publish" a set of principles they will follow.

[i] the difference between visiting a significant family/cultural/religious event rather than simply sitting beside a pool.[/i]

As a head you probably can, there do seem to be a significant number of parents who can't though.

Interesting to see the usual lines of argument here.

Some teachers, Many without kids and some who don't want to take their kids on holiday saying it is bad, and always bad.

Some saying - "they are my kids, so I get the final say in everything" [they aren't and you don't]

And some in between.

As an adult and parent and an adult learner one learns just how good some teachers are, and how bad others are, and how badly schools deal with the bad ones. Also how much end-of-term class time is wasted until year 9 or 10.

The idea that a teacher, by losing 3% of their year's lessons with [b]any [/b]given child, is going to be given a huge mountain to climb to "catch-up" the child is laughable.

The whole issue, IMHO, requires some common sense.

Children who are performing well, motivated and able to self-task to work in the school holiday, and who are going on a holiday which is either educational, or stretches them in terms of sport, physical skills or self-sufficiency, should be allowed to go.
Those who aren't perhaps shouldn't - except for once in a lifetime opportunities.

This requires a sensitive and intelligent approach, something which Governments seem less inclined to allow teachers. And sometimes there seems a dogmatic jobsworth attitude of some Heads who are often failing children in much more harmful ways, by tolerating mediocrity in their staff.

The idea that a teacher, by losing 3% of their year's lessons with any given child, is going to be given a huge mountain to climb to "catch-up" the child is laughable.

Children who are performing well, motivated and able to self-task to work in the school holiday, and who are going on a holiday which is either educational, or stretches them in terms of sport, physical skills or self-sufficiency, should be allowed to go.

And would you agree that the parents are the *wrong* people to make this call? As your view and a professionals may vary hugely.

If people find school rules so hard why don't they home school? As they obviously find formal education timetables too restrictive and the parents know best 🙂

Personally my son will not miss a day of school so I can have a cheap holiday, but then again I come from a working class background (my father was taken out of school at 14 to put food on the table, as school wasn't for our type...) So I appreciated 'free' schooling for what it is and its impact on how your life pans out.

I didn't realise (somewhat stupidly) that it doesn't and can't apply to private schools.

So if you're properly middle class it's OK anyway 🙂

Well put, richc

Millions of parents in the world would give their soul to have their kids get the education ours do. So that their kids could have the chance to have a lifestyle that includes even the word "holiday".

Unless you have very special family circumstances (Drac) I don't see why a term time holiday is a requirement of modern life.

I have fixed holiday I had some in Jan then April and finally some in September this year non of it in school holidays. I asked the head for permission to take kids out for a week and it was granted after I got a letter from work proving I wasn't lying for her files. Kids are only 6 and 8 at the moment so they didn't miss much but as they get older unless my leave happens to fall right they will end up having no holidays as she told me that it wouldn't get granted had they been older:(

I have no problems with the term time rules but there should be a system in place for workers with fixed leave periods.

You bastard firestarter, you're clearly just trying to get cheap holidays and one at a pool not sight seeing across Europe learning the different cultures. How very dare you want to spend some free time with your family against a teachers better judgement.

I know I'm a real barsteward. If they had added all the teacher training days together and let me take them out with them then I'd be grand for a two week break 🙂

Apparently my five year old spent a good portion of today watching Wall-E in the assembly hall with the rest of the school.

I like to think that had I taken her out of school then we could have covered that key learning outcome at home 😀

There's 1500 kids at my daughter's school.

If all the kids take 5 extra days each year the school would lose 7500 teaching days. This feels like a massive amount of 'education' lost.

Tbh, most teachers probably welcome having fewer kids to teach, the problem is that the schools are judged so much on pupil progress and also attendance.

I like to think that had I taken her out of school then we could have covered that key learning outcome at home

No, the other kids would have to stare out of the window while she caught up.

If all the kids take 5 extra days each year the school would lose 7500 teaching days. This feels like a massive amount of 'education' lost.

No it's not, they can still teach with one kid missing.

Whilst I have a good deal of sympathy with the views on here are people directing their anger with the problem on the wrong people. 1. Its not the teachers fault its a political issue and 2. Why cant your work be more flexible?

Why cant your work be more flexible?

Because we can't close an ambulance station for 6 weeks.

I have no problems with the term time rules but there should be a system in place for workers with fixed leave periods.

How very dare you want to spend some free time with your family against a teachers better judgement.

Been here before, but it's nowt to do with teachers.

No it's not, they can still teach with one kid missing.

That's not the issue though, is it? That time still has to be made up, what was taught while they were away will still have to be learned. When is that done?

Because we can't close an ambulance station for 6 weeks.

Schools shut in England for something like thirteen weeks a year - how much more flexible do you need them to be?

And I know you don't want to look at the other side of it, but teaching today is not by any stretch what you imagine it to be - [url= https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-views/%E2%80%98i-hear-teachers-crying-their-kitchen-floor-because-stress%E2%80%99 ]Linky[/url]

You could skive off, like you're asking your kids to do? If it's not a problem for them, why's it a problem for you?

It wouldn't be a problem for me. It may be a problem to the people trapped in a house fire or a car crash though.

Schools shut in England for something like thirteen weeks a year - how much more flexible do you need them to be?

My leave is fixed. I have no say in when it is. The school could be shut 26 weeks a year if my leave doesn't fall right it's still useless. I guess my kids don't deserve a holiday yet a teachers kid could have 13 weeks worth. I must be a gluten for punishment as my army leave was fixed too.

It wouldn't be a problem for me. It may be a problem to the people trapped in a house fire or a car crash though.

My leave is fixed. I have no say in when it is.

Same for the school and every single teacher that works there.

I guess my kids don't deserve a holiday yet a teachers kid could have 13 weeks worth.

I must be a gluten for punishment as my army leave was fixed too.

Same for the school and every single teacher that works there.

Yes but the point you seem to be missing clearly on purpose I might add is the fact that the teachers kids are on holiday the same time as them. Where as mine and many others aren't

And who mentioned abroad? A week in Scarborough would do.

because we want a nicer holiday

Because we can't close an ambulance station for 6 weeks.

Surely you can work some system where people take holiday in a rota or is that beyond the ambulance service?

My leave is fixed. I have no say in when it is. The school could be shut 26 weeks a year if my leave doesn't fall right it's still useless. I guess my kids don't deserve a holiday yet a teachers kid could have 13 weeks worth.

You could always become a teacher, loads of vacancies

[i]My leave is fixed. I have no say in when it is.[/i]

Use the human rights act against your employer then - you have a right to a family life which is being denied to you.

Someone in your organisation decides who gets leave when in your workplace - it's not fixed in law.

Surely you can work some system where people take holiday in a rota or is that beyond the ambulance service?

My god why didn't we think of that. Oh wait that's exactly what we have but guess what, not everyone can have the school holidays off as we'd have to shut down the ambulance service.

Of course, but does everyone have kids and is it beyond you to rotate it through different years so everyone gets a chance of a summer holiday with their kids every few years?

Ours rotates by one shift a year. The next time I get time off In the summer holidays us around 12 years away.

Leave is fixed. When you join you are given a leave group and you keep that until you move stations. When you move you take the person who has lefts leave group. I have incidentally just moved station as due to budget cuts they have shut my old one. This has moved me two years backwards in terms of leave. So I'm again not only further from summer hols but further from Christmas 🙁

As for human rights act good luck with that. If the fire brigade aren't exempt they sure act like it. We now have some stations working four days/nights straight thru. Recall to duty where they can legally call you in from leave if they need more manpower and punish you if you don't arrive. All thanks to our lovely govt. And as the budget gets cut further and as people are leaving in droves it's only gonna get worse as we are shutting stations rather than replacing leavers.we have had more fire deaths in our brigade this year (figures from April to June) than we had in the previous five years put together. But that's another thread all together

Of course, but does everyone have kids

Errrr! No but you can't not give someone holidays in July and August because they don't have kids.

everyone gets a chance of a summer holiday with their kids every few years?

Roughly that's how it works but you can go a few years before you get a chance again. Think it's my turn next year but that's only because I took a new job.

As for human rights act good luck with that.

Maybe we could take the human rights against the schools for not allowing kids to go on holiday with their family. Or maybe we should stop being so melodramatic.

I think the thing that annoys most about all this is the scatters that are never at school where nothing happens and even if they do get fined they pay it out of benefits.as shown on the benefits Britain thing the other day. They went on hols in term time told school they were in and she said she didn't mind a fine as the tax payer would pay it

When i asked the head for time off she admitted it was horrible to give me grief when my kids had 97% attendance yet some they struggled to get in school for a full week ever

Maybe we could take the human rights against the schools for not allowing kids to go on holiday with their family.

I think the thing that annoys most about all this is the scatters that are never at school where nothing happens and even if they do get fined they pay it out of benefits.as shown on the benefits Britain thing the other day

You have a quarter of the year to aim at, how much more do you want?

No, no I don't. I'm not sure if I mentioned this but my holidays don't always fall when the schools are off. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.

No, no I don't. I'm not sure if I mentioned this but my holidays don't always fall when the schools are off. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.

I give up. Read what pondo has written it's just a load of Bolton. As they say in dragons den. For that reason I'm out

I give up

Actually I'll quickly add. One of our local high schools has 2 weeks off every 6 I think it is. That would suit me but the parents at that school are trying to get it changed.

On average that should mean everyone had a quarter of their leave matching school holidays. If anyone doesn't get that then someone else must be getting more than a quarter of the year matching up.

Average of what? Go on the tell me how my holiday rota works then as you seem to know better than me.

We know it's unreasonable oldbloke but there is nothing we can do other than as the senior management have suggested, leave and get a job as a teacher

10 blokes on my shift 2 gaffer's 4 drivers we always need 1 gaffer and 2 drivers on. 5 of shift is trained in a fancy bit of kit and we need 2 of those in at all times and they can't be drivers.and we all have kids in school. Work me a rota out that's fair. Oh and we can only have 1 person off at any one time

P.s. My wife is in the NHS can you sort hers to coincidence with mine too 😉

We have to manage the holidays for quite a lot of staff where 7 day cover is needed and there's no way we'd impose on them what you and Drac have to cope with.

It isn't actually that bad. It's just that at times you can miss the school holiday set, even if I do hit it my wife might not as she works for the NHS too. So unless we both can get our holidays to match during the school hols we can't alway be together long enough for a holiday. If we had the option without a penalty to do this another time it would be a lot better, that's the problem.

It seems then that the inflexibilty of the ambulance and fire service necessitate a change in education.
The problem here appears to be 50% with your employers and 50% with schools. All 3 are controlled by government. Its them who you need to complain to, not teachers who have no power to change anything.

Problem is 100% with the government but they care not. And for reference I've not complained to the teachers 😉

You are making me cry!!!!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34602720

We know it's unreasonable oldbloke but there is nothing we can do other than as the senior management have suggested, leave and get a job as a teacher

That's the problem pondo they don't want to motivate us they are trying to reduce the workforce to meet govt budget. But they know they can't really make us redundant when fire deaths are rising rapidly

And for reference I've not complained to the teachers

No can't say I have either.