[Closed] Have we done the father takes council to court over school fine and wins yet?

Just do whatever you're going to do.

Ultimately, how well your kid does at school has got nothing to do with whether they miss a few days for a family holiday. You know your kids better than the school/the gvmt - if you're worried, don't do it.

Is a 60 quid fine going to influence your decision making? If it is, then your decision probably wasn't very sound to begin with.

It really isn't wrong at all now is it really?

Terms are already staggered in case you hadn't realised. Some schools are off next week others the week after.

I can't choose my holidays so have to take them when I've been given them, that can often mean I'm not off during the school holidays. Still don't let your blinkered ideas get in the way.

So your work/life balance doesn't fit your expectations, so your kids education has to be the thing that breaks? Plus their classmates, who sit staring out of the windows while your kids get on the same page as their classmates?

Nope, still sounds like you are putting you first. Is that the sign of a good parent?

My parents used to take me out of school for holidays, seemed great at the time but lookinbg back now Im not so sure.

Used to have to work my socks off to catch up and then get to the end of years exams to find some parts I looked back on, not revision at all but my first learnings.

My kids work so blooming hard at school as it is.... a whole week off (mid year) would really put them underpressure... I'm not going to do that to them.

Fair enough. I reckon my five year old will cope. She's does pretty well with her Floppy, Chip and Biff books. Hopefully it won't impact the rest of the class if she gets stuck on a new word.

Can I just clear something up here please?

[b]Not everyone taking kids out of school is after a cheap package deal.[/b]

Thanksgiving being a good example. The main family holiday in the US, the one time when everyone's together. My wife's family are a close knit bunch and we've spent a lot of money in the past trying to make sure it stays that way. A week in November is pretty important for us.

I'm sure any head would give permission, especially when the kids are still young, but they generally don't have the choice any more. We'd get lumped in with the package holidayers.

This thread just shows how parents place value, academic or more 'worldly'. Your argument will show where you sit on the fence. In everything there is a balance. If your kids are heading towards major exams then clearly missing a week will be bad but if they aren't then maybe a week outside enjoying and learning about life is probably good.

Perhaps the government and schools should agree a pattern of weeks/zones where attendance is essential, where fines are higher than 60 quid versus times of the year when attendance is less key. thus fines lower if not zero.
EDIT: so a five year old probably has more freedom to miss time than say a 14/15 year old working towards exams.

This thread just shows how parents place value, academic or more 'worldly'. Your argument will show where you sit on the fence. In everything there is a balance.

ti_pin_man pictured earlier:

[img] [/img]

😉

[i]I'm just about to ask to take my daughter out of school on Friday (1 day early)[/i]

Why, just call in on the day and say she is sick.

[i]We've stayed there twice before. It's nice, but it's nowhere even close to £1859 per person nice. [/i]

Supply and Demand. Maybe the French etc are also on holidays, or there is some other event going on which makes it busy.

Supply and Demand. Maybe the French etc are also on holidays, or there is some other event going on which makes it busy.

It's a Neilson-exclusive hotel so the guests are all brits (sadly).

I'm pretty sure that the price hike is purely because it's the half term week. You see the same every year in every resort, though it does seem to be getting more pronounced.

Supply and demand as you say. I'm not sure what can be done about it, or indeed if anything [i]should[/i] be done about it. Some people must be prepared to pay those insane prices otherwise the demand would fall off.

So I'll do the only thing that I can do about it, which is vote with my money and book a different week.

Given that Neilson aren't turning much of a profit, maybe that's how they have to price it over a season to make their sums/plans make sense?

So yes, they hike the prices up over half term but then IME Neilson holidays tend to be sold out so it's clearly not excessive (in market terms).

Also, FWIW, we took Nem Jnr to Neilson during term in reception (he was still under 5) but realised that it was rather limiting for him as only one other kid of school age was there (eg equally bad parenting...) which meant a shortage of kids of similar age to play with. It was ok that time but we've not done it since - for both that and educational reasons.

Probably depends where you go nemesis. We've been to that one for the past two years in non-term time and there have always been plenty of kids about.
That place is set up as a very kid-friendly hotel though so that may be a factor (e.g. kid's clubs, early kid's meals, situated beside the nursery slope, on-site ski hire, ski school directly outside, etc).

Neilsons all have that though... I've been on 8 or 9 Neilson holidays (3 resorts) and it's fairly clear that during term time there aren't many kids of school age there.

EDIT - I'm talking about Neilson summer holidays. Haven't done one of their ski ones.

I'm pretty sure that the price hike is purely because it's the half term week. You see the same every year in every resort,

Think of it as a discount for out of term usage. The actual price to make a profit will be somewhere in between those two I'd imagine. It's not really profiteering, it's demand management.

This is relevant to me, not because I have kids, but because my gf is a teacher.

Mind if she takes a week off during term time to take advantage of the difference in price?

Think of it as a discount for out of term usage. The actual price to make a profit will be somewhere in between those two I'd imagine.

European package ski season is usually around 18 weeks long (mid-December till end of April-ish).

It would be a bit of an odd business model to run 17 weeks at a loss then one week at a massive profit to balance it!

It's not really profiteering, it's demand management.

I think it's probably both, but as I say I'm not sure if anything could or should be done about it. Some people must be prepared to pay that price.

It's a Neilson-exclusive hotel so the guests are all brits

And the prices are weighted to extract the most from British school holidays.

Mind if she takes a week off during term time to take advantage of the difference in price?

I feel for her. We have several teacher friends who face the same issue.

Personally I wouldn't be averse to teachers being given say a week of holiday to take when they need it (outside of critical exam time obviously).

It would be a bit of an odd business model to run 17 weeks at a loss then one week at a massive profit to balance it!

You think? They aren't necessarily running at a loss, but quite possibly not profitable enough without the brit holiday season. I'd have thought that was fairly common. Entice people in who have a choice at times when those who don't can't come.

It would be a bit of an odd business model to run 17 weeks at a loss then one week at a massive profit to balance it!

Well, the other weeks probably aren't a loss but low margin. You then balance that with the profit on the more expensive weeks. It's not that odd a business model, is it?

Not everyone taking kids out of school is after a cheap package deal.

No, just most of them.

I view cultural immersion as at least as valuable as sitting in a class of noisy children, learning curriculum for stats when looking at an holistic overview of my child's education..
If that cultural immersion is as basic as different food, architecture, and language, mixed with balmy evenings and days spent soaking up Vitamin D whilst splashing in the sea, then it's still better in my opinion than an extra week or two spent amidst the chaos of a British classroom..

Luckily the head teacher at my kid's school agrees 🙂

I view cultural immersion as at least as valuable as sitting in a class of noisy children, learning curriculum for stats when looking at an holistic overview of my child's education..

Middle class self-justification alert!

Heh! I wish..

I would just say that it's an intellectual fact ransos..
I can't expect everyone to understand it, but I do hope I can encourage the hard of thinking to get some clearer perspective 🙂

Middle class self-justification alert!

I'm pretty sure that the price hike is purely because it's the half term week. You see the same every year in every resort, though it does seem to be getting more pronounced.

If anyone would like a less 'oooh skiing, bloody middle class parents' example then look at any holiday let in the UK, CenterParcs, Bluestone etc. etc.
Even campsites have gone up in price in my experience.

Personally I wouldn't be averse to teachers being given say a week of holiday to take when they need it (outside of critical exam time obviously).

Being married to a teacher I would say this, but it's actually a reasonable idea, to level the playing field. On the basis that the good ones tend to spend a fair bit of their '15 weeks holiday' in the classroom anyway, it'd balance things up a bit, if the rules on other parents are relaxed.

FWIW she doesn't see a week missed as a big deal if attendance is otherwise good and progress satisfactory, but that's only a Foundation / KS1 perspective. As a governor I feel the same - if the parent presents a decent case with some mitigation - doesn't have to be a full time table of work, just an effort to keep things on track - I don't see a problem.

I would just say that it's an intellectual fact ransos..
I can't expect everyone to understand it, but I do hope I can encourage the hard of thinking to get some clearer perspective

My thinking is perfectly clear: you want a cheaper holiday, and are engaging in post-hoc rationalisation in order to justify it.

I'm a recently retired teacher & a parent & can see both sides to this. Unfortunately I haven't been able to take a holiday in school time with my family for the past 32 years - until now as I have recently retired. Unti now & they have all grown up! In fact I had to go into school in the summer for exam download days then spend the best part of the following week analysing the outcome by every conceivable way.....

The problem is not just the one pupil taking time off its the impact on the progress of the rest of the class. One pupil makes little difference, particularly if they are able, but when it comes to 2-3 etc taking time off in advance or arrears of holidays then it's hard for the rest of the class to progress without a lot of going over the same work again. This is particularly so of the core subjects which tend to be linear in their teaching. Ie miss one bit & you don't understand the next.

The pressure on progress & achievement is considerable in schools with performance tables & teacher accountability with many of the broader 'educational experiences' sidelined in favour or a very narrow academic curriculum. School are now obliged to focus on the subjects that feature in the performance tables & drop the ones - even though some pupils can excel at them AND keep them coming to school in some instances - that don't.

This one's for you ransos

Quite simple - scrap the "summer holiday" entirely.
An archaic practice bought about solely from agriculture when it was "all hands on deck" to get the crops in.
Doesn't happen any more, isn't needed any more so why is it still in place?
Get rid of it and run a balance of holidays spread throughout the year equalising it for everyone.
Simple

We wanted three days for my mums 60th suprise and what will probably be my nans last holiday.
Kid 1 at senior school, we don't authorise it but we won't fine you as we can see the reasonings behind it. Kid 2 junior school same town, no we don't authorise and we will fine you, I don't have to but I'm going to. And now you've told me if kid 2 doesn't attend on those days and you possibly phone him in sick we will send someone to your house to check you are not away from home.
New headmaster out to make a name for himself, absolute prick!

[quote=yunki ]If that cultural immersion is as basic as different food, architecture, and language, mixed with balmy evenings and days spent soaking up Vitamin D whilst splashing in the sea

yunki's cultural experience

[img] [/img]

So your work/life balance doesn't fit your expectations, so your kids education has to be the thing that breaks? Plus their classmates, who sit staring out of the windows while your kids get on the same page as their classmates?

Errmmm! No. I was working 14 years before I had kids so knew how my holidays stood. The rules changed about taking them out after I had kids, I've said this already but you felt the need to try and pick on one small detail.

What sort of school waits to every kids is on the same page, I hope no one takes ill as they'd never move off page one.

Nope, still sounds like you are putting you first. Is that the sign of a good parent?

Classy. I'm not putting me first at all. Not all of us have 6 weeks off over the summer, I get 2 at the most which as I say are pre-booked for me. This year we went to Scotland, well the kids and I as my wife couldn't get he holidays to match the ones I had been given. This was supposed to be a full family holiday with my mother, brother his wife and kids. It was the only week we could get in the cottage. I had to come home Wednesday so my kids could start school again on the Thursday. Yes a Thursday as the teachers needed an extra bank holiday after their 6 week jaunt, plus 2 days training.

I may as well kept them off as the whole class at both schools stared out of the window they didn't start any proper lessons until the following Monday.

The problem is not just the one pupil taking time off its the impact on the progress of the rest of the class. One pupil makes little difference, particularly if they are able, but when it comes to 2-3 etc taking time off in advance or arrears of holidays then it's hard for the rest of the class to progress without a lot of going over the same work again. This is particularly so of the core subjects which tend to be linear in their teaching. Ie miss one bit & you don't understand the next.

The pressure on progress & achievement is considerable in schools with performance tables & teacher accountability with many of the broader 'educational experiences' sidelined in favour or a very narrow academic curriculum. School are now obliged to focus on the subjects that feature in the performance tables & drop the ones - even though some pupils can excel at them AND keep them coming to school in some instances - that don't.

The problem is not just the one pupil taking time off its the impact on the progress of the rest of the class. One pupil makes little difference, particularly if they are able, but when it comes to 2-3 etc taking time off in advance or arrears of holidays then it's hard for the rest of the class to progress without a lot of going over the same work again. This is particularly so of the core subjects which tend to be linear in their teaching. Ie miss one bit & you don't understand the next.

I can see how this causes problems. Hence why I suggest a school could investigate taking the majority of it's training days as a single, multi-day event.

hammyuk - Member

Doesn't happen any more, isn't needed any more so why is it still in place?
Get rid of (the long summer holiday) and run a balance of holidays spread throughout the year equalising it for everyone.
Simple

except, most people like to go away in summer, when the weather's nice. So the majority would then feel compelled to take their summer holiday in the new summer fortnight.

'summer' holiday prices would triple.

Family
School/Work
Everything else

I have quite a lot of sympathy for that - I also know how much I learnt from concentrated time with my family (Not holidays, I admit).

Nope, still sounds like you are putting you first. Is that the sign of a good parent?

That is actually out of order. You know very little about the way anyone on here parents.

view cultural immersion as at least as valuable as sitting in a class of noisy children, learning curriculum for stats when looking at an holistic overview of my child's education..
If that cultural immersion is as basic as different food, architecture, and language

I think the true value of meeting with people and immersing yourself in a different culture is undervalued. The typical package holiday doesn't do that to be fair - and also to be fair, we don't know what type of holidays Yunki takes. There is a fair degree of hostility for this more rounded view of education.

Boom!

Middle class self-justification alert!

Ransos, you are really quite belligerent on this issue - I have felt it personally on a different thread... With the greatest of respect, the socio-economic background of Yunki is likely unknown to you, it probably has no bearing anyway and possibly reflects more on your prejudices than anything else. You strongly support the view that formal education is crucial - that is fine. Your intolerance of others for taking a different view isn't fine. Maybe a wider, more culturally diverse aspect of your education, may have made you more accepting of differing views... Guess we will never know.

Maybe a wider, more culturally diverse aspect of your education, may have made you more accepting of differing views... Guess we will never know.

I hadn't appreciated the deep cultural richness of immersing your kids in activity clubs while you get shitfaced on "local drinks" on your all-inclusive package holiday.

Your holidays sound crap ransos, but each to their own I suppose.

Your holidays sound crap ransos, [b]but each to their own I suppose.[/b]

Indeed. For example, I choose to not complain about the startling revelation that half-term holidays cost more.

I wouldn't take my kids out as I value their education as priceless.

I don't care if others take kids out as give other kids a head start.

great thread guys, it's got everything, middle class hand wringing, condescending manners and spouting of opiniated nonsense. Keep it up 😀

Was just about to post the same 😆

I've got kids, I'll be taking them out of school in term time no doubt about it

I remember being at school and no one cared if you were there or not, and some days it was barely worth attending as we did very little, especially in the run up to end of terms

I don't care if others take kids out as give other kids a head start.

You actually believe that? Seriously?

Smart kids will be smart, dumb kids will be dumb - not everyone becomes a physicist and the world needs supermarket staff, but to believe it's so finely balanced that a week off swings it, come on

Mleh... My daughter has had 2 days off in 5 years, & that was when she had Flu last year, & we received a letter threatening legal action for non attendance.

My wife is a teacher & we have 2 children at primary school. Even if we wanted to we couldn't take them out of school to take advantage of cheaper holidays. That said, neither of us can condemn those who do. The real frustration for us is that I can't get time off during school holidays, and she can't get time off other than school holidays. What do we do?

great thread guys, it's got everything, middle class hand wringing, condescending manners and spouting of opiniated nonsense. Keep it up

Good to know my efforts are appreciated.

richness of immersing your kids in activity clubs while you get shitfaced on "local drinks" on your all-inclusive package holiday.

Don't do activity clubs. Don't drink on holiday - or much generally in fact. Some years can pass where I don't have a drink Don't do all inclusives. Taken my children out once - pretty sure after considering all the angles I won't do again.

Do think the fines are nonsense. Do have sympathy for families with restricted ability to go on holidays - at all, let alone cheap holidays. Do think that culture is important, hence why my children know a bit more than average about European history - ancient and modern, can speak a fair amount of basic French & Italian and enjoy the truly educational aspects of our time together.

Don't like your aggressive, assumption ridden and somewhat insulting posts Ransos.

I don't care if others take kids out as give other kids a head start.

No it doesn't a apparently they stare out of the widow while the teacher plays catch up for any kids that were off.

The real frustration for us is that I can't get time off during school holidays, and she can't get time off other than school holidays. What do we do?

You're a bad parent apparently. As you're work doesn't meet your expectations.

Reality is that you have a different working environment to those that feel the need to criticise those for trying to spend a week with their kids as Topsy and Tim reading books come first before that.

I'm sure you are typical of parents wanting to take their kids out, jam.

We go on holiday in term time happy in the knowledge that at least the kids will one meal a day and shelter from from the rain from 9-3.

Do think that culture is important, hence why my children know a bit more than average about European history - ancient and modern, can speak a fair amount of basic French & Italian and enjoy the truly educational aspects of our time together.

I'm delighted that Henry and Cecily know how to order an ice cream in Italian, and can follow the complex plotlines of Bob l'éponge, but you'll have to explain why this vital life skill requires them to miss school.

Don't like your aggressive, assumption ridden and somewhat insulting posts Ransos.

[quote=thestabiliser ]We go on holiday in term time happy in the knowledge that at least the kids will one meal a day and shelter from from the rain from 9-3.

Do your kids melt?

Don't read them, then.

Here's a better idea. Maybe change the tone of your posts.

Mmm. Don't know, will put one in the oven when I get home tonight and post up results tomorrow

Whilst you're at it, put some food in for them, so they can get their one meal a day

Mmm. Don't know, will put one in the oven when I get home tonight and post up results tomorrow

You'd be better off putting them up a chimney...more profit in it. 😀

S'alright, if he melts I'll sue aracer for loss of earnings

Here's a better idea. Maybe change the tone of your posts.

I've considered your suggestion, and decided not to.

That's Ok we have other methods to encourage you.

Some friends of ours are taking their two kids on a 4 month tour of South America after Christmas. They said it was easier getting approval for 4 months off than a week!

That's Ok we have other methods to encourage you.

Ah, ok. I assume you will use the same methods for the people who were insulting me earlier in the thread.

Presumably ransos doesn't get fined if his holiday is authorised?

Are holidays that important? And if so are the fines too big just to pay?

I'm delighted that Henry and Cecily know how to order an ice cream in Italian, and can follow the complex plotlines of Bob l'éponge, but you'll have to explain why this vital life skill requires them to miss school.

Not only is your inverse snobbery stupid Ransos, it's also inaccurate when it comes to my background. I also said that despite doing this (taking children out) once, we wouldn't again, so another of your jibes misses its target again. There is also the point that insulting me is one thing - insulting my children is a different thing entirely. What will you do next - take aim at my mum too? Just for info - they can order ice cream, also ask for assistance and directions for starters.

Let me pass you some vinegar - it goes well with the chips you are obviously carrying on your shoulder.

artisinal balsamic I presume?

Sarsons malt. As for balsamic, just buy the occasional bottle of supermarket stuff. Not crazy about it.

Are lessons that important? If so why aren't the fines bigger?

If so why aren't the fines bigger?

How much are the fines, surely not so much that the tories cant keep their "hard working" buddies happy and if they arent that much why the stress?

I'd be happier if they just banned parents from asking ne for holiday work.

I'd be happier if they just banned parents from asking ne for holiday work.

🙄

if they arent that much why the stress?

I think the fines are generally £60 per child. So not much of an issue for a plummy middle class type trying to save a few grand on a ski holiday. But a bit of a kick in the teeth to the single parent of five who can't get time off at school holidays.

I think the other factor is that, regardless of the amount, people don't like the idea of being "criminalised" or their actions being reported to social services.

The head teacher at the school my kids go to was happy for my three to miss the first week of term this year. Didn't even ask for a reason. Will it realistically make a difference to their education? Will it hell.

I think the other factor is that, regardless of the amount, people don't like the idea of being "criminalised" or their actions being reported to social services.

This is a huge thing for me. I'm not even that comfortable with taking the parents of truanting children to court. Not sure what it achieves - as opposed to other action.

Not only is your inverse snobbery stupid Ransos, it's also inaccurate when it comes to my background. I also said that despite doing this (taking children out) once, we wouldn't again, so another of your jibes misses its target again. There is also the point that insulting me is one thing - insulting my children is a different thing entirely. What will you do next - take aim at my mum too? Just for info - they can order ice cream, also ask for assistance and directions for starters.

Let me pass you some vinegar - it goes well with the chips you are obviously carrying on your shoulder.

I suspect the irony of complaining about supposed insults by dishing out a few of your own has passed you by. I did try to reply earlier but my post was deleted. Oh well.

I think that if your child's education is so borderline and their prospects so fragile that the risks associated with missing a week or two of school are critical then you have bigger problems than any fines.

Serious answer:

Of course there are people with no choice.
Any system that punishes such people is ludicrous.
This needs saying?

However, people who use double standards to justify their selfishness should be fined.
It does have an effect on other students, not least the amount of time a teacher has to spend helping the child catch up.
Time usefully employed elsewhere.

rusty spanner solves 5 pages in one common sense post - well done that man!

[img] [/img]

How do we measure the double standards?

But yes this is very sensible.

Of course there are people with no choice.
Any system that punishes such people is ludicrous.
This needs saying?

 

However, people who use double standards to justify their selfishness should be fined.

So am I all right then?

No double standard here. I'm taking her out because it'll save me four and a half grand.

4.5k where the **** you going? Or did I miss the whoosh of sarcasm?

I'll be the judge, of course.

I'll need a wage.
And a car.
And I've got some holidays booked.

But I can start Monday and I'll clean out my own litter tray.

other students, not least the amount of time a teacher has to spend helping the child catch up.
Time usefully employed elsewhere

The main reason we've not taken ours out again.

I suspect the irony of complaining about supposed insults by dishing out a few of your own has passed you by. I did try to reply earlier but my post was deleted. Oh well.

I suggested (Albeit strongly) that you have a chip on your shoulder - which if you don't you do a great impression. That would be the only 'insult' I've made - insult singular not multiple. If I wanted to truly insult you I would not waste time making an aside - I would leave you in no doubt. Note, also I haven't cast any insults in the way of your children - and wouldn't. As for irony passing me by - can you not help being patronising?

4.5k where the **** you going?

France. See the image in the earlier posts.

It's the difference between a £2,760 holiday and a £7,436 holiday - same resort/hotel/flights.