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A father who won a court battle to overturn a £120 fine he was given for taking his daughter out of school during term time has told 5 live he "didn't have to argue exceptional circumstances".
Jon Platt, who took his six-year-old daughter to Florida with the rest of his family, said he "sent the council an email explaining" why he had to take the holiday during term time, but returned home to find they had given him a £60 fine.
The fine was doubled to £120 when Jon didn't pay for three weeks, and after he refused to pay again, the council said they would be prosecuting him.
The case was dismissed after Jon argued that, according to the law, he only had to make sure his daughter "attend school regularly" to make sure he hadn't committed an offence.
Isle of Wight Council says it was following government guidance and it's now reviewing the outcome.
Hopefully paving the way so others can take the kids away too without a lengthy interview or risking a fine.
Taking away discretion from the Head Teacher was where it all went wrong, the Tories are obsessed with central control and micro-managing everything from Whitehall.
Good.
We'll most likely take our five year old out of school a week early for the Feb half term.
That week makes a difference of over £700 per person on our winter holiday.
(Plus it is unlikely the missus will get half term off).
If they fine us £60 then so be it.
Agree discretion was what was needed.
Think the guy in the case had his daughters attendance at 93%?
Think I'd be considering whether to take my kids away if they were missing more than one day every 4 weeks though. Fair play to him for trying to get the law clarified, and it was only a magistrates court so can be overturned.
But I'm in the "it's part of having kids and you should have thought it through first" camp.
But I'm in the "it's part of having kids and you should have thought it through first" camp.
I did but we were able to take our kids out school when we decided to have kids. They changed the rules after I had kids.
Re; the taking away of 'discretion' from previously trusted decision makers. Does anyone else feel like this is a persistent and insidious trend in society these days? Or am I getting all daily mail and sensationalist about something that isn't actually a problem?
As to the OP, it strikes me as a small win for common sense, which means it will probably be strongly legislated against at once, in order for normal service to resume...
Always thought it a pointless law anyway, holiday companies prey on families and hike costs in the term breaks.
My parents used to take our family summer holidays in the last week of August and the first week of September, that often meant missing the start of a new school year but the school never kicked off and my parents were honest with the school.....it saved the family a huge amount of money and we wouldn't otherwise have been able to afford holidays abroad.
Common sense really....in response to a cynical travel industry unfairly hiking costs on those who can least afford it...no problem with the decision.
Can't see what the fuss is about with taking kids out of school during term time.
If parents are not bothered about their kids being on holiday instead of learning, why should schools be .
My sister is looking at pulling her 8 year old out of school for 4 days next summer, last week of term. This is because our brother and family who live in NZ are visiting, and the only weeks they can make it were in term time due to work commitments over in NZ. We have not seen them in 5 years, we have never met one of their kids. My sisters lad has had one day off in three years of school.
The school has refused permission already, and suggested they will ask for a fine.
This decision is one for common sense. And no I am not a great believer in a week off school twice a year to sit by a pool in Fuerwengirola eating chips. But it is parents decision, and should the attendance at school be good otherwise, it is their choice.
we were able to take our kids out school when we decided to have kids
Funny that; I always thought school was mandatory, not reliant on how much flights to the sun were.
You can't put your kids education before a good deal though, can you?
Funny that; I always thought school was mandatory, not reliant on how much flights to the sun were.
Yes but you were allowed to take them out of school for holidays without such issues.
You can't put your kids education before a good deal though, can you?
It's nothing to do with that. I can't choose my holidays so have to take them when I've been given them, that can often mean I'm not off during the school holidays. Still don't let your blinkered ideas get in the way.
Lots of rules change Drac, not perhaps the most convincing argument. 😉
If a kid is achieving the required standard and their attendance is good, I'm fine with the head having discretion to let them take a week off.
The head needs to also have the bottle to say "Your kids are not achieving and/or their attendance is poor, so you will be fined". And the fine needs to be big enough to really punish as well. The current situation is just a waste of everyone's time.
Kids only go to school 190 days a year? Plenty of time off to spend with the family. I have little sympathy for those who can't afford to do exactly what they want in that time and complain about it. Sorry.
Speaking as a parent who hasn't had a cheap holiday in the 8 years since eldest started school. And won't get one for another 9 years till the youngest finishes. No one is entitled to a cheap holiday.
😯Can't see what the fuss is about with taking kids out of school during term time.
If parents are not bothered about their kids being on holiday instead of learning, why should schools be .
Because schools are under immense pressure to ensure very child makes at least expected progress, if not greater. If not they are deemed to be failing (in the current system).
Below 90% attendance is the equivalent of missing 4 weeks of school in a year.
You can't put your kids education before a good deal though, can you?
meh, kids can learn lots whilst on holiday too - maybe especially when it's abroad
I've never taken the piss with our kids and absence and their junior school never declined a request. If they had, and particularly if they'd threatened a fine, I'd have asked for details of what the class was being taught during the absence and made sure we caught up. I'd still have gone though, as we'd only do so for what we thought was a good reason.
The only reason a few people can save money on holidays is because most people follow the rules. If significant numbers of people start taking kids out of school early, or returning late, the holiday companies will just make the peak season longer, and you're back to square one. Or you end up with a free for all where people just take holidays randomly, whenever they like throughout the year, which will be very disruptive for class teaching.
[quote=scaredypants ]meh, kids can learn lots whilst on holiday too - maybe especially when it's abroad
bingo!
Re; the taking away of 'discretion' from previously trusted decision makers. Does anyone else feel like this is a persistent and insidious trend in society these days?
Only with the Tories, they absolutely hate local government and any public body with autonomy. You end up with the hilarious situation of Michael Gove making up lists of which kings and queens must be taught based on those he can remember rather than trusting teachers or exam boards or in fact anyone else....
I knew someone would come out with that "travel is learning" bollocks
Guy in the OP took his kid to Disney World
Lots of rules change Drac, not perhaps the most convincing argument.
Ermmm! But at the time it was part of the consideration of having kids. So your argument is just as flawed in my case.
ids only go to school 190 days a year? Plenty of time off to spend with the family. I have little sympathy for those who can't afford to do exactly what they want in that time and complain about it. Sorry.
If you include weekends.
Speaking as a parent who hasn't had a cheap holiday in the 8 years since eldest started school. And won't get one for another 9 years till the youngest finishes. No one is entitled to a cheap holiday.
Once again. It's not about the cost, my holidays don't match very often with the school holidays.
I understand your point Drac - I was a RAFbrat, only had two family holidays as a kid due to my dad's leave rota.
But this summer we had to juggle childcare around work between us, only had one week as an actual family together. It's part of having kids.
But this summer we had to juggle childcare around work between us, only had one week as an actual family together. It's part of having kids.
Snap! However, it meant we had no weeks as a family together. It's part of having kids yes but wouldn't it be better if there was also an option for a family to spend time together outside the school holidays as that was the only time they could?
It's only 1 week so not going to put the attendance below the 90% mark as that requires month.
I can think of several holidays where my kids would gain more knowledge and experience than a term at school, so although I'm keen for highest attendance, I would have no compunction taking them to such places.
Good!
The jobworth Council has too much time on their hands.
Well, the "travel is learning" bollocks was in response to a general comment rather than the guy in the OP.I knew someone would come out with that "travel is learning" bollocks
Guy in the OP took his kid to Disney World
Kids in our village went to harrypotterworld as a year 11 english study day a few weeks ago and pretty much all schools attempt to send kids abroad as part of languages, don't they ?
And guess what the law doesn't apply if your kids are in private school. So the Tories bring in a law that doesn't apply to them.
Now are schools bothered by this because they want the best education for kids or because it effects their attendance stats. In today's teaching culture I think it is the later!!
Funny that; I always thought school was mandatory, not reliant on how much flights to the sun were.
No, it isn't.
For reference, this is why we're taking her out a week early:
[img] 
[/img]
I'll gladly pay the £60 fine from the £4,676 we save!
(That's not some carefully cherry-picked extreme example by the way - that's just the place we went last year)
e they want the best education for kids or because it effects their attendance
Nail; head.
#targetculture
Only with the Tories, they absolutely hate local government and any public body with autonomy.
Thats probably why the fine was issued under [i]The Education (Penalty Notices) (England) Regulations 2007[/i] 😳
Eh? I'm confused by the stupidity of the comments suggesting parents are bad for making their kids miss some days at school! I don't get your thinking... posting condescending remarks, belittling those who do it... what is actually wrong with you?
Examples above clearly highlight why people do it - would you normally pay £4000 for your kid to have 1 week's education? No, of course you wouldn't.
Kids are surprisingly smart and most could catch up on the important parts of the missed work with ease.
Our children's attendence is always in the very high 90's. We have built some incredibly strong partnerships with some of the teachers and cooperated strongly to make sure we are working together. We have provided them with a huge amount of support and also invested in independent education assessment and tutoring when the school hasn't been able to meet their needs. Sometimes that's when the school has had a high turnover in class teachers (My boys had 3 last year) or when the teacher has not been able to build a good rapport with one of them and as a result my child has withdrawn from them.
Our commitment to their education is huge. I do think with this borne in mind that the headteacher should not be able to block a reasonable length of absence. We hold the primary responsibility for their care and should be trusted to make good decisions.
[quote=glasgowdan ]Kids are surprisingly smart and most could catch up on the important parts of the missed work with ease.
Some are and some aren't, obviously. Presumably you're relying on support from the teachers to help them catch up?
Its not one parent doing it every parent doing it. If every parent takes a week off then that is a lot of lost teaching hours.
I agree some balance is needed but lets not pretend that 3/4 of the class doing this has no impact on the teaching environment/education recieved
But what about us people that book in term time only to have to suffer some yummy mummy poolside shouting instructions to Octavia to be careful darling.
Funny that; I always thought school was mandatory
Looks like you may have thought wrong then. The amount of prisoners we get in who can't read/write or do basic maths is quite startling. A lot of the travelling fraternity tend to fall into this category but we tend to find they can scrap & are 'good with money'. 🙂
zippykona - Member
But what about us people that book in term time only to have to suffer some yummy mummy poolside shouting instructions to Octavia to be careful darling.
Wait till Octavia is in the Kids club and roger said yummy mummy senseless 😈
A quick email outline of the week's work shouldn't take much of the teacher's time. Any relevant books can be popped in the kid's drawer while they're away, a few hours at home concentrated study without classroom distractions will be more than enough!
Point being, it's not black and white, good vs bad. Kids are resilient, capable and flexible. They don't become drop outs for life if they go a holiday once a year and miss 5 days of formal schooling.
This is the attitude I can't understand, which makes me wonder about the people spouting off about it and their possible lack of common sense.
and what if those couple of hours doesn't happen?
It also appears you're sending your kids to school for about 20 hours a week more than they need.
Funny how parents can't take their kids out but the school my sister teaches at in Perthshire arranges a school ski trip during term time.
dunno, what happens if kids are ill for a week or absent for other reasons ? Do schools offer some sort of catchup for that ?and what if those couple of hours doesn't happen?
Depends what you think school is for, formal learning or general development. If the latter counts for some of it (I'd argue "a lot" for infant & even junior schools), then a broadly similar (or challengingly different) social environment might work just as wellIt also appears you're sending your kids to school for about 20 hours a week more than they need
quick email outline of the week's work shouldn't take much of the teacher's time.
Aye why dont they just have one ready every week for those who go on holiday they have tons of free time do primary school teachers
a few hours at home concentrated study without classroom distractions will be more than enough!
on wonders why we bother with som nay hours of schooling with highly trained professionals then
Thanks god you are not doing that eh 😯Point being, it's not black and white, good vs bad.
You are correct its not black and white but it is clearly, generally, disruptive and unhelpful
ah, that'll probably be those pesky "classroom distractions" that your parent at home won't have to deal withon wonders why we bother with som nay hours of schooling with highly trained professionals then
Kids on a school organised holiday will have learning included, following curriculum in a stealthy (or not so) way.
Do you set homework for your kids when they are sitting by the pool?
. Personally, I think this is more important in terms of the child than school. I understand this isn't the situation in the OP and thankfully not our situation either.But this summer we had to juggle childcare around work between us, only had one week as an actual family together.
Interesting though because our school is very hot on not authorising absence this year. However last year they closed the school for elections and didn't use that day for teacher training so that was an additional lost day, there were two school outings with tenuous connections to education - one was a theme park and another to see a film - Frozen IIRC.
One thing that could be considered is grouping teacher training days together. This could give an option for family time - including a holiday if wished and not increasing disruption to education.
Do you set homework for your kids when they are sitting by the pool?
We didn't have a term time holiday - our children still did one hour of reading, spelling, tables, maths and other study every single day. Three weeks of that this summer was part of the holiday club they go to, remaining three weeks was my wife and I.
Just go on holiday to places you can afford to go during the school holidays. Simples.
It's fine if it's nice, middle class people, like us, obvs.
We took Lettuce and Grizedale to Jamaica in term time last year.
They learned so much - Letty's blunts are the talk of the common room.
I don't think she's have gained essential life skills like that in the Cotswolds, would she?
As for teachers, who the HELL do they think they are?
Lazy bastards have all those holidays to help kids fortunate enough to have parents like us.
Lettuce and Grizedale
😆
Davidtaylforth - we'll have none of that sort of nonsense on this forum. Two weeks by the pool in Spain is every British child's birthright!
I'm just about to ask to take my daughter out of school on Friday (1 day early)
Apparently she will be missing a Spanish exam, ironically we are off to Spain so I'm curious t see the response.
I'm armed with the 4 days at the last term (Summer hols)when all they did was watch DVD's and this Thursday they are away on an activity day.
Which is OK except it's at the Trafford centre shopping !!!
If they refuse then I will be up for a fight.
and BTW, my daughters attendance is 100% so far this year (not this term, this year.
and I agree with the fine if it went on 'after school teaching' to make up the time away from school, but as far as I know it doesn't !!
Davidtaylforth - we'll have none of that sort of nonsense on this forum. Two weeks by the pool in Spain is every British child's birthright!
😀
When I were a lad, it was a four days on a campsite in Muncaster; or a week at the Sea Houses in Northumberland. Never did me any harm.
A few weeks in the T5 doing vineyards, towed on a bike trailer or skiing is educational and the head teacher (even if it's not the HT anymore) should realise that. 2 weeks in an all inclusive in Benidorm, Tenerife or Disneyland just isn't doing them any good and reinforcing that slacking is ok.
PMSL
and I agree with the fine if it went on 'after school teaching' to make up the time away from school, but as far as I know it doesn't !!
How would you propose to staff this? The money certainly doesn't go to the school.
You've probably picked up I'm a teacher 😉
I see it from both sides tbh, but schools are just enforcing Govt policy. However being out of school can impact on progress - it depends on the student, parents and what they are missing.
I'm armed with the 4 days at the last term (Summer hols)when all they did was watch DVD's
I've not seen that in schools for over 10 years - you need to ask the school some serious questions - I presume you raised it at the time?
I've not seen that in schools for over 10 years - you need to ask the school some serious questions - I presume you raised it at the time?
Not intended to be teacher bashing, but pretty common - maybe not 4 days - at our kids primary school. I
four days on a campsite in Muncaster; or a week at the Sea Houses in Northumberland
Luxury!
I've not seen that in schools for over 10 years - you need to ask the school some serious questions - I presume you raised it at the time?
no, but I will be depending upon the response to my request.
When the student comes back, who will have to help them catch-up = the teacher.
When the student falls behind, who will be blamed = the teacher.
Who has accountability = the teacher.
More than the practicalities and specific impact of lost time is the message that the Dad is sending the kid:
1."Education is somewhat important, but less important than our holiday."
2."Getting what you want now is the important thing."
3."Dad and the school are at odds, if I get in to trouble, I can rely on Dad to take my side."
I remember my parents making me quit my Saturday job before my A levels. It meant I didn't have much spending money - we weren't rich - for 4 months. Got 3 A grades and into a top university. I hated it at the time.
Now I am a teacher I routinely have kids who work 3 days a week. These are middle class, Surrey kids, whose parents drive Mercs and Beemers. But they want the cash to live an 20 something lifestyle when they are teenagers. I can tell you the names of scores of students who do not reach their potential because of it.
I have no sympathy for the Dad who was taken to court, he should be ashamed of himself and start acting like a responsible adult. They should have fined him the cost of the holiday.
They should have fined him the cost of the holiday
Certainly the current level of fines are no deterrent. Until the fines make the term time holiday uneconomic, it's a wasted piece of legislation.
I routinely have kids who work 3 days a week.
So you are conflating chronic truancy with a single "managed" absence? Why?
ajt123 - well done on your A-level results and 'top' University attendance - we clearly need more teachers like yourself.
However as I understand it this particular case was 'won' on the basis that his child had excellent attendance... So presumably the parents of the kids you teach who only attend/work 3 days a week would still be fined.
I'm also not sure the Dad should be ashamed of himself either. Where has the Dad suggested that the teacher should get the blame for anything?
where have they said the dad would be the one doing the blaming?
As for teachers, who the HELL do they think they are?
Lazy bastards have all those holidays to help kids fortunate enough to have parents like us.
Has anyone said that...?
I'm armed with the 4 days at the last term (Summer hols)when all they did was watch DVD's
They did spend at least two days doing similar at our school at the end of term - which we were not expecting. We would have challenged the school at the time but dealing with the constant passive-aggressive approach whenever you raise a concern with the head means we didn't. Things seem better at the 'outstanding' school since she was suspended...
Has anyone said that...?
He's got kids called Lettuce and Grizedale.....
You are right ....we clearly cannot trust his views
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/9057284/School-holidays-are-a-pointless-relic-of-the-past.html ]The whole school calendar and system is out of date.[/url]
Kids don't need 6 weeks to help with the summer harvest these days, do they!
Also, the 9-3:30pm just doesn't exactly fit with most peoples work days.
Make it 9-5pm with 5-6 weeks annual leave to be taken whenever you want.
Never going to happen - can you imagine the noises the unions would make. Ha!
Pay teachers more, increase the work capacity of the UK working population, reduce childcare costs, increase the amount of education a child receives - whether that's maths, sports, or whatever.
Just a small change...
Kids on a school organised holiday will have learning included, following curriculum in a stealthy (or not so) way.
I ran that one by my sister at Sunday dinner. After she stopped laughing she said that isn't how it works at her school. The kids on the ski week are handed notes after they get back and need to catch up (or not) themselves. She doesn't think it's a good idea for kids to miss a whole week whether it's parents or the school arranging it. Though she teaches secondary 3rd -6th year. It may be less on an issue for primary schools.
Do you set homework for your kids when they are sitting by the pool?
I never took my kids out of school during term time.
She doesn't think it's a good idea for kids to miss a whole week whether it's parents or the school arranging it. Though she teaches secondary 3rd -6th year. It may be less on an issue for primary schools.
It is more work for the Teachers, so hard to get them on board. It happens all the time in the ME. You just have to make sure it's taken into account when it comes to assessing their performance. Some kids take off the entire period of ramadan which is hard to police. Parents have to accept that it's their choice, and the effect it has on their kids is their responsibility.
Attendance otherwise needs to be acceptable I feel.
Unless the child is thick it's a breeze to come back after missing a week, GCSEs were a doddle and it was no different in workload to every time my tonsils flared up at secondary school and I had a week off...glandular fever had me out of school for two weeks and and nearly in hospital, I dont remember that being a challenge to catch up either.
I stand by earlier comments, if the overall attendance is good then a week with the family is more important than just another week in school...obviously important weeks that include exams are different.
In priority order it goes like this:
Family
School/Work
Everything else
People would do well to remember that.
I don't think that the decision to take a child out of school for a week should be taken lightly, but it should be able to be taken. If the curriculum is so fast moving and intense that a week out could cause a real problem for a child, then we as a society are expecting too much of our children, our teachers and our schools.
For reference, this is why we're taking her out a week early:
[img]
That's a bargain, and you'd be crazy not to take advantage of it. In fact, everyone should be free to book at those prices, shouldn't they?
Now, if everyone took their kids out of school a week earlier, do you think that price would stay the same...?
Speaking as a parent who hasn't had a cheap holiday in the 8 years since eldest started school. And won't get one for another 9 years till the youngest finishes. No one is entitled to a cheap holiday.
No one is entitled to a holiday, cheap or expensive.
Not everyone will be taking their kids out then kcr. It didn't happen before these silly rules came in so it won't happen if they changed.
That's a bargain, and you'd be crazy not to take advantage of it.
It's not a bargain - it's the exact opposite of a bargain. It is an illustration of how much they hike the price at half term.
We've stayed there twice before. It's nice, but it's nowhere even close to £1859 per person nice.
Now, if everyone took their kids out of school a week earlier, do you think that price would stay the same...?
Course not. But if everyone took their kids out then the spread in demand would lower the ridiculous premium on the half term week.
Ultimately I'm not making any grand moral statement here. I'm just saying, this is why we'll most likely be taking our daughter out a week early.
Of course, the important thing is to make sure we have nice holidays, not that our children are educated[/sarcy****]. Gotta take the comments about "our child has 90%+ attendance" at face value, but do you think the rule is in place for kids who generally work hard and attend well?
No, why would we think that?
it's wrong to take a week or more off school for a holiday, couple of days before or after a holiday is ok if the child has over 95% attendance.
This could be solved by changing the holiday patterns have a month in the summer and make half terms two weeks. Stagger each area so south east has july, south west august, midlands september etc stagger the halfterms accordingly problem solved
attendance has a massive impact on achievement, above 95% 60% chance of good gcses, below that drops to 30%
it's wrong to take a week or more off school for a holiday
That's good to know, thanks.
But for the sake of saving four and half grand I can live with being "wrong". 😀
attendance has a massive impact on achievement, above 95% 60% chance of good gcses, below that drops to 30%
Especially in the classes that teach correlation versus causation. 😉