[Closed] Have we done "the decline of Nadal" yet?

Steak shortage. 🙂

Actually, when he was in his pomp, a few commentators and knowledgeable folk said that he was punishing his body so hard that they wondered if he would be able to maintain anything like that level over a longer career, compared with someone like Federer, who was and is perpetually smooth and controlled.

You're wrong, clearly the Guys knackered.

It happens, look at all the Champs/No1's who've been at the top of their Game for the last 9/10 years.

He needs a rest, a few beers and a surfboard IMO.

after yesterdays result, I remembered reading some "Steak" based stuff online* a few years ago about Nadal. Went and dug it out again. TBH I'm not convinced, there's no real reason he cant be great AND inconsistent.

Google "The Curious Case of Rafael Nadal" if you are interested in JHJ style sports journalism.

Im with Andy Murray on this one, definitely fishy

a few commentators and knowledgeable folk said that he was punishing his body so hard that they wondered if he would be able to maintain anything like that level over a longer career, compared with someone like Federer, who was and is perpetually smooth and controlled.

This.

Played too many tournaments, every point like it was his last, hit every ball 100%, and always had problems with his knees.

Sad to see, an awesome player, truly humble in defeat as well. Lots of people accuse him PED use, but there's no evidence AFAIA.

Its got a lot tougher in the last few years with other players raising their game but I definitely have a nagging doubt with regards to performance enhancement. He's always been a bit inconsistent but a few years ago he'd have occasional dips, these days he seems to have occasional peaks. As mentioned, he doesn't play in a way conducive to a long term career so it might just be that.

Worth watching this from yesterdays game: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/33365887 I think anyone would have struggled against most of these although I think old Nadal would've got a few of them

Could be - seems like he's certainly benefited from advances in 'racquet technology' in his career.

But what reason would he have for stopping? Seems like there's tacit acceptance of it in tennis, and everyone (fans / players / governing body) is happy with the status quo.

His whole game was based on aggression, reaching the unreachable balls, generating massive power at full stretch from the knees and shoulders. There was very little subtlety in his game.

I find it totally plausible that even a small reduction in his ability to push himself so hard could have a big impact on his performance.

Nothing to do with Dustin Brown playing out of his skin then?

One thing I did notice, compared to Brown he was sweating like a small nun at a penguin shoot.

Don't have an opinion for or against but there doesn't need to be any more reason than normal/natural causes to explain it.

Nothing to do with Dustin Brown playing out of his skin then?

His game was smashing the ball so hard the opponent couldn't return it. His ability to do that had diminished so opponents can get more balls back
He's not able to adapt his game to the subtle shots Brown was playing but hats off to Brown he played some ridiculous shots. Great game.

Pat Cash made an interesting point: Nadal's swing is so complicated that if his game is only slightly off, he won't get the consistent depth he needs which allows his opponent to dominate.

That said, I found his comeback from serious injury to winning slams about 3 minutes later to be eyebrow-raising to say the least.

Check out his record on Grass vs his record on hard court or clay.

I think his last 4 performances at Wimbledon have seen him being beaten by similarly lowly (relatively) players. His past four Wimbledons:

2012, loses to world number 100
2013: loses to number 135
2014: loses to number 144
2015: loses to number 102

BUT...the top spin forehand that Nadal has used to massive effect before, is steadily getting less fierce.

im glad his out, OCD means he takes 3 hours on every serve, commentators wheeling out "uncle Tony" lines every 30 seconds

Didn't The Judge in the Puerto case surpress the naming of other athletes/clients? But it was reported that Footballers and Tennis players on the list? I am sure I remember reading Brazilian footballers playing for top Spanish teams - Barca Real? - And top Spanish Tennis players named in the investigation as clients. I can only think of 3 top Spanish tennis players.

If you go with what has been 'reported' then Mo Farrah is a cheat too?.

I think it is a combination of things.

If you look at Nadal's physique, early on in his career he gained a lot of muscle mass in a short period of time. Basically he has a physique that no other player has had in the history of tennis and it is questionable whether this is possible without drugs. He has also bounced back from injury quicker than many other players.

[img] [/img]

Also as others have mentioned and I have believed all along, his game is very hard on the body, meaning he is knackered at the age of 29.

Lastly the most important factor is the mental one. Nadal has always been able to bounce back from injury and go and win the French, regardless of how poor a season he's had (apart from one year) This time he hasn't been able to do this and is having the worst run for over ten years.

I don't buy the swing excuse, his forehand has been the most consistent shot in tennis. Much more to do with his head than his swing.

So a combination of lack of steroids, hgh and things to give him that little 'extra,' a knackered body and mentally not being in the right place.

Edit: Brown played a great match, but an in form nadal would have passed him much more often coming into net. He was missing forehands that I have never seen him miss in ten years of watching him as a player.

there were always a lot of question marks for me around Nadal's unbelievable strength, missed drug test, heavy use of stuff like Platelet Replacement Therapy (people are still arguing over whether this is / can be a cover for doping and is / should be banned), and Lance-levels of fitness.

also the unbelievably poor drug testing regime. clearly this blog has an angle, but still - the ITF went 2 years without conducting a single out of competition blood test on any player. Lots of mental stats here-

http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/itf-doping-control-blood-tests-2005.html The door was wide open.

but like others, i reckon his decline now is more due to pushing his body so hard for so long. His main tactic was brute force, and his ability to play longer and harder than anyone else. That can't last.

early on in his career he gained a lot of muscle mass in a short period of time. Basically he has a physique that no other player has had in the history of tenni

ah yes that was the other thing. he did all this while insisting in interviews that he didn't do weights, didn't really go to the gym, and it was all just from playing lots of tennis 😕

hey ho.

He needs a rest, a few beers and a surfboard IMO.

Brown played a blinder of a game, some lovely subtle shots.

Nadal has been at the top for 10 years; he's cream crackered. As mentioned above, his game relied on being in peak physical condition. He's not looking like it any more, and his game is gone. I don't particularly buy the drugs angle. His strength / physique doesn't look superhuman. On a slower court he might still be running and reaching shots.

early on in his career he gained a lot of muscle mass in a short period of time.

ie when he was a teenager?

doris5000 - Member

ah yes that was the other thing. he did all this while insisting in interviews that he didn't do weights, didn't really go to the gym, and it was all just from playing lots of tennis

Lots of this sort of thing in sport though- part psychology, part strategy- make your opponents worry, and hide where your advantage comes from.

Missed drug tests?
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jun/24/chris-froome-missed-drug-test-tour-de-france

Dodgy physiology?
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/04/news/froome-faces-scrutiny-extraterrestrial-dna-test-results_322157

Training with PED tainted types?
http://stevetilford.com/2014/08/05/froome-skipping-tenerife-to-train-with-levi-in-california/

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/04/news/froome-faces-scrutiny-extraterrestrial-dna-test-results_322157

I hope you noticed the date on that article before you posted it 😉

He has a freakish style with his weight further back that other players and a huge swing that imparts about 50% more topspin on the ball that other top players, like Federer.

It's a bit like those shots-to-nothing you play when you haven't managed to get to the ball before the second bounce and you 'whip-it-up' back across the net as a frustrated gesture, except that he plays those shots all the time.

Hence why his knees have suffered.

Pat Cash is right about the technical side of it, but I think the lack of confidence is probably the biggest thing though - look at all the double faults he was hitting, he knew a substandard serve would be rammed down his throat and choked on his serves - if he had a lot of aggression (which might be a drugs thing...) then he wouldn't choke like that.

Maybe if he had lasted a few more rounds the confidence would have returned - even though Wimbledon bounces higher than it used to it is still a non-natural surface for a clay court player with such as extreme grip.

Finding a player on a streak like that didn't help.

I barely noticed it. The point is, you can associate anyone with drugs with a quick google.
Nadal is a naturally strong, physical bloke for a tennis player. The pic above is a bit.....cherry picked.
[img] [/img]
To sayu he can't get in that kind of shape without PEDs is way wide of the mark.
Murray packed on LOADS of muscle in a very short space of time in recent years.

To sayu he can't get in that kind of shape without PEDs is way wide of the mark.
Murray packed on LOADS of muscle in a very short space of time in recent years.

Sure you can get in that kind of shape without PED's, having awesome genetics.

The issue arises when someone is in that kind of shape and playing a sport which is essentially a mix of strength and massive endurance (4-5 hour matches for weeks)

If you look at Murrary and Djokovic they are in great shape and yes Murray has put on muscle, but no-one in the history of the game has been as muscular as Nadal.

You just don't see athletes competing in endurance sports with Nadal's physique, hence the question over PED's.

Tsonga is bigger than Nadal. He's not as defined, but I'd bet he carries more muscle mass. As you rightly say, genetics play a huge role in muscle but Nadal is nowhere near the category of "awesome genes" (in a muscle sense), certainly not at the point which would arouse suspicion of steroid abuse (IMHO). He's just a strong bloke. If there were anyone I'd be suspicious of, it would be Serena Williams.
[img] [/img]

[quote=wrecker ]To sayu he can't get in that kind of shape without PEDs is way wide of the mark.
Murray packed on LOADS of muscle in a very short space of time in recent years.

Are you suggesting that proves you can put on lots of muscle without PEDs? 👿

Are you suggesting that proves you can put on lots of muscle without PEDs?

Tsonga is bigger than Nadal. He's not as defined, but I'd bet he carries more muscle mass. As you rightly say, genetics play a huge role in muscle but Nadal is nowhere near the category of "awesome genes" (in a muscle sense), certainly not at the point which would arouse suspicion of steroid abuse (IMHO). He's just a strong bloke. If there were anyone I'd be suspicious of, it would be Serena Williams.

If Nadal is natural (which I highly doubt) he has bloody good genetics for putting on muscle. Not in the league of top bodybuilders in the world, but certainly up the there. More likely is he has been on the gear and GH.

If you can find me a picture of a tennis player with a more muscular physique at a low bodyfat percentage than the one I posted, i'd be surprised.

He certainly had the most impressive physique of any tennis player and I've been around enough gyms and followed bodybuilding enough to suspect PED use when I see it.

Serena on the other hand, well she is a genetic freak, but even so, I'd bet she has been hitting the growth hormone pretty hard. Stomach gives it away.

Tennis is not a game where you can maintain muscle mass and low body fat easily, it doesn't go with the endurance aspect of the sport. Player are either lean and rangey or carrying a bit more muscle and fat, but not both.

You don't need PEDs to maintain a physique like that. Tennis isn't road cycling and whilst an endurance sport, requires and trains for an amount of power. I wouldn't even classify him as a freak.
Look at Jared Graves, champion XC, DH and enduro rider. 85kg and well muscled. Look at the beast in football; happy to believe that he's not a roider.
IF Nadal is beyond what is capable for a natural athlete (I don't think he is) then Murray isn't clean and Williams is doped to the eyeballs.

More suspicious of Martina Navratilova myself :

[img] [/img]

[img] ?1284480735[/img]

Serena looks much more feasible

You don't need PEDs to maintain a physique like that. Tennis isn't road cycling and whilst an endurance sport, requires and trains for an amount of power.

I agree you don't in other sports, but tennis is unique in the demands placed on the athletes. http://theconversation.com/fitness-play-off-how-tennis-stars-compare-with-other-athletes-11644

If you look at the physiques of tennis players, they do not generally look like Nadal. He is/was an outliner.

IF Nadal is beyond what is capable for a natural athlete (I don't think he is) then Murray isn't clean and Williams is doped to the eyeballs.

Murray isn't as muscular as Nadal used to be and Serena is probably doped up to the eyeballs.

"It might be time for some fresh blood in the Nadal camp," McEnroe said on BBC Radio 5 live's 6-Love-6.

TBF, he was suggesting a new coach 😆

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/33379144

Murray isn't as muscular as Nadal used to be

Serena is probably doped up to the eyeballs.

Granted but Murray put on a large (unfeasible?) amount of muscle. He's nowhere near the same starting point, but the transformation (certainly in the timescale) is far more questionable than that of a natural Mesomorph like Nadal.

Nadal is certainly more of a natural mesomorph than Murray, but I think he might have been on the gear since his late teens 😆 Murray might have only started dabbling in the last few years.

It's always a bit fishy when an athlete gets an injury and comes back much more muscular.

Serena has bigger guns than Rafa 😀

[img] [/img]

Pretty sure Roger hasn't been on the gear.

Not so sure he does any more drugs than the majority of his oponents. He has a power game and when that goes a bit he doesnt have much left, bit like Tiger at Golf. He used to out drive everyone and play every hole like it was 10% shorter than the next guy. Having lost that he is just another jobbing pro!

Not so sure he does any more drugs than the majority of his oponents

Not so sure about that...........

[img] [/img]

bit like Tiger at Golf. He used to out drive everyone and play every hole like it was 10% shorter than the next guy. Having lost that he is just another jobbing pro!

not sure that is fair - if you have a lot of confidence in your swing you can try to hit it hard - if you haven't you are trying to keep the hook that most powerful golfer succumb to under control.

Look at Ben Hogan - he couldn't stay on the tour until he had learnt his 'secret' that let him keep his hook under control, and once he had he was a big hitter and one of the greatest ball strikers - just look at the distances he quotes in his power golf book, and that was with equipment from the 50's.

Not so sure about that...........

at the risk of looking like a racist I don't think it is unusual for someone like Serena to develop muscles like that - I remember years ago the Today newspaper had a picture of a naked Naomi Campbell from the rear and her musculature was fantastic - if she wasn't identifiable and the paper had said she was an Olympic sprinter it would have seemed feasible.

at the risk of looking like a racist I don't think it is unusual for someone like Serena to develop muscles like that - I remember years ago the Today newspaper had a picture of a naked Naomi Campbell from the rear and her musculature was fantastic - if she wasn't identifiable and the paper had said she was an Olympic sprinter it would have seemed feasible.

I don't think that is racist, more a misunderstanding of PED's. Black people generally have better potential for muscle gain and more fast twitch muscle fibres. You only have to look at sprinters and body builders.

That doesn't changed the fact that Serena looks like a body builder and I don't care how good your genetics are, it is pretty much impossible to have that physique and play tennis at the highest level.

The two things just don't go together.

kudos100 - Member

That doesn't changed the fact that Serena looks like a body builder and I don't care how good your genetics are, it is pretty much impossible to have that physique and play tennis at the highest level.

The two things just don't go together.

You keep saying things like this but I don't see you backing it up. Like, that article you linked up the page, does nothing to support you.

If you look at other sports, you can very often see this sort of step-change, things that were impossible or wrong suddenly become very possible or very right. Nadal basically demonstrated to people what you could do if you brought big guns to a tennis match, his approach was against conventional wisdom which is why you can say "nobody else is built like that". Others have seen the potential and tried to emulate him but they came at it late so it's no surprise they don't hit the same mark- he's built his whole playing approach around it. (not to say he's power without technique, to be clear, rather he's technique made for power)

Just to be clear, I'm not saying he is or isn't a doper but your reasoning seems very lacking.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying he is or isn't a doper but your reasoning seems very lacking.

I can't really be arsed to post up a load of articles about doping and tennis, or high level sport in general. If you want to look, go ahead, there is so much about it will keep you busy for a while.

There has been controversy around Nadal ever since he first came onto the scene.

It was laughable when all the people on this forum and on the net came out to support Lance when he was accused of doping.

If you follow body building, power lifting or any other 'sport' where the testing is a joke and all of the athletes are on huge amounts of drugs you get to learn about what is possible with strength, recovery, injury healing etc. As well as this you get to recognise what the drugs do to someone's physique.

It's nice to think that these great athletes are smashing records, rewriting the history books and dominating the sport based on talent and hard work alone, but if you bother to look beneath the surface you will find it isn't always the case.

kudos100 - Member

I can't really be arsed to post up a load of articles about doping and tennis, or high level sport in general. If you want to look, go ahead, there is so much about it will keep you busy for a while.

I don't think anyone doubts the existence of doping thanks 😆 But this is just more innuendo. It seems like you've decided he's guilty and now you're trying to backfill that decision but you've not come up with anything more compelling than "he has to be, it's obvious".

Countdown til someone says "silent bans"...

I don't think anyone doubts the existence of doping thanks But this is just more innuendo. It seems like you've decided he's guilty and now you're trying to backfill that decision but you've not come up with anything more compelling than "he has to be, it's obvious".

I've said I think it's very likely and possible Nadal has taken PED's. Just like I think IT IS LIKELY that Serena is doped up to the gills.

I don't have any hard evidence as I am not there when they are [i]possibly[/i] taking PED's, but due to my knowledge of sport and drugs I'd say it is highly likely that both Nadal and Serena will have both taken illegal PED's at some point.

Jesus, Richard Gasquet claimed he had kissed a girl who had done coke when he tested positive 😆

Agassi lied about taking meth and only came out with it when in his autobiography.

Just for you Northwind 😉

http://www.tennisnow.com/News/Doping,-Tennis,-Nadal---Connection-.aspx

http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/curious-case-of-rafael-nadal.html

http://theultimatetennisblog.com/christophe-rochus-speaks-out-about-doping-in-tennis/

Nadal's body is broken. Uncle Tony might look like a Mafia fixer but even he can't fix that.
Nadal is a thoroughly good bloke, he should retire now rather than fade away, the light that burns twice as bright lasts half as long etc

Ah yes, just what I was after, [i]more[/i] innuendo.

I'm not convinced at the Nadal stuff. He is big for a tennis player, but he's not "big". Serena on the other hand is HUGE by almost any measure in womens sports. She has the definition and the muscle mass.
[img] [/img]
I take the point about some black people being well disposed towards muscle gain, but this is waaaaaay beyond that.

Northwind - Member

Ah yes, just what I was after, more innuendo.

Saying you don't know one way or the other is not some wise position of impartiality, it's a statement that you think tennis is in some way completely different from other sports. Where athletes who have unusual physical changes and patterns of form, in a sport with a soft drug testing regime, with a huge amount on the line (more than athletics or cycling), aren't taking PEDs.
If you love tennis, then it's understandable why you might think that, as we all like special pleading for sports we're emotionally invested in. You don't appear to be a big tennis fan, though, so it's a strange argument to make.

Garry_Lager - Member

You're lucky he gave you that - the impetus to come up with something compelling lies with the one making the unusual argument. That would be you.

Er, no. The burden of proof is on the accuser. But that aside, the unusual argument here is the one that's arrived at such a strong opinion with no more than nudging and winking. Oh and nonsense about body fat, as if Nadal could just eat some pies and have the accusations go away. "HOW CAN NADAL EAT PIES AND STILL WIN GAMES?".

In the case of Williams, how likely is it that those champions of doping USADA are covering it up?

The doper argument is entirely built on special pleading so it's a bit weird to throw that at me.

I wouldn't need any performance enhancing drugs if I played this lass at mixed doubles......

[img] [/img]

Now [u]that[/u] is innuendo.