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I’ve never seen or heard of a conspiracy theorist who, on being challenged by the sorts of people that they consider ignorant (one of the core points of being a CT after all) for believing officialdom/convention; react in a civilised manner.
Well I certainly have, perhaps it's the way you deal with them Nick?
Our once resident conspiracy theorist JHJ was always perfectly civilised, and in fact good humoured when he was engaged.
Plus to make things more awkward he occasionally had some very valid points.
it’s the way you deal with them Nick?
I never engage with conspiracy theorist, it's ultimately futile.
Good points from @convert
I want cake and eat it, I guess. I value STW for it's breadth of expertise, not just bikes but I've had advice from geriatric nurses (specialty, not that they're geriatric!), teachers, Uni admissions staff, firefighters..... various others, all in the last year. True Subject Matter Experts, who freely provide advice when asked. We have an amazing knowledge base on here.
I've also listened to opinion based debates and in some cases had my opinion altered or totally changed by debate (possibly happening right now) - so i want to hear counter views and to chew the fat with them. But in the right way, and at times debating on both sides turns into who shouts loudest or the internet equivalent of death by wordcount.
Is debating with conspiracy theorists, trolls, etc. adding to the experience. I don't know - but there can be a fine line between a contentious but well held view and the bad-actors, and if the risk of banning the bad actors too readily is we don't get to hear the contentious alternatives, I'd be wary of that.
And while I've tried as a NY resolution to not get dragged into arguing with trolls, sometimes it's fun to poke a bit
I never engage with conspiracy theorist, it’s ultimately futile.
As Lao Tzu would say, a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
No one becomes a full blown conspiracy theorist overnight, it's a journey. Which is why it is worthwhile challenging misconceptions before the situation becomes unredeemable.
Conspiracy theories are a growing and destructive problem. They are often as much of a reflection of the problems of society as they are of the individuals.
I never engage with conspiracy theorist, it’s ultimately futile.
It's the same as dealing with any religious fundamentalist. I cannot recall any back-and-forth which led to even a minute shifting of their mindset. There's no possibility of a productive debate.
I've moved on from the idea that it is my (or our) job to try to rescue these people from their self-induced psychoses.
Add to that the realistic possibility that some of these accounts do not represent genuinely held beliefs, and are just ways to try to fill a narcissistic void via trolling.
@convert - well put. The only bit I didn't understand was
For a few years I’d open my curtains in the morning half expecting to see him stood at the bottom of the garden.
that he'd gone so far down the rabbit hole to go beyond an annoying conspiracy theorist into a full blown stalker / murderer type.
Ah right. So not a garden gnome then.
🤣 I just about choked on my coffee there.
Plus to make things more awkward [JHJ] occasionally had some very valid points.
A stopped clock, and all that.
The issue with people like JHJ is that there's such a vast quantity of spurious output that they have to be right by chance eventually. And that then just validates everything they've been saying all along.
Can anyone recall a moment in time where JHJ acknowledged that even one of his suggestions might be a bit weakly-evidenced? Or didn't just pivot into another picture of Jimmy Savile meeting a royal?
Ah right. So not a garden gnome then.
😄😄😄 That made me smile! He'd have made a good gnome - a really really grouchy one!
But more seriously yes - wasn't very pleasant. I was on his naughty step as part of the 'establishment' warping minds. I've heard it's not gone too well for him in recent years.......but fortunately I've moved to the other end of the UK!
Can anyone recall a moment in time where JHJ acknowledged that even one of his suggestions might be a bit weakly-evidenced? Or didn’t just pivot into another picture of Jimmy Savile meeting a royal?
Nope, never happened.
Makes you think...
Which is why it is worthwhile challenging misconceptions before the situation becomes unredeemable.
Countless research has shown that the most successful anti-conspiratorial thinking strategies are managed by time, empathy understanding and compassion by someone that the person has respect for, knows and trusts. A situation uniquely unsuited to a forum full of strangers, trolls mickey-takers and wind-up merchants.
Sometimes forums can be exactly the right time and place, and sometimes they are entirely the wrong place.
The issue with people like JHJ is that there’s such a vast quantity of spurious output that they have to be right by chance eventually. And that then just validates everything they’ve been saying all along.
Being right once does not validate everything they have been saying all along. It does in their own eyes, the eyes of people who want to believe them and (this is where it gets really dangerous) in the eyes of someone a bit susceptible that might just be scrolling past. I hope that is what you meant.
Can anyone recall a moment in time where JHJ acknowledged that even one of his suggestions might be a bit weakly-evidenced? Or
That wasn't the point I was making.
The claim was made that no conspiracy theorist ever reacts in a civilized manner when challenged.
Our once resident conspiracy theorist JHJ always behaved in a civilized manner. In fact better than many on here. I remember him as always polite and never insulting, despite the level of abuse that he received.
Countless research has shown that the most successful anti-conspiratorial thinking strategies are managed by time.....
You are obviously dismissive of Lao Tzu's observation that every journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.
No one is born a conspiracy theorist, it's something that develops, and how much conspiracy theories they embrace varies widely.
It might start off as something that they have read or been told by someone. If they feel that it sounds feasible they might repeat on here, for example. It is perfectly reasonable to engage with them whilst they are still open to counterarguments.
It's a spectrum, not all conspiracy theorists are totally closed to all counterarguments and unredeemable. Some might simply have conspiracy tendencies.
Our once resident conspiracy theorist JHJ always behaved in a civilized manner.
by civilised, do you mean flat ignoring anything that contradicted his ramblings?
It’s a spectrum, not all conspiracy theorists are totally closed to all counterarguments and unredeemable. Some might simply have conspiracy tendencies.
SciManDan references a couple of Flat Earthers occasionally who have managed to get out of that rabbit hole and accepted that it's all bollocks but they describe it as exactly like a cult - I've not yet seen anything that explains why they went down that particular route or what finally brought them out of it.
Maybe it just gets too wearing continually trying to justify your belief...?
Ultimately, a lot of these conspiracy theories don't really affect life as we know it. You can go to work, do normal everyday things etc whether the earth is flat or not, whether Diana was assassinated or not, whether the moon landings happened or not.
Our once resident conspiracy theorist JHJ always behaved in a civilized manner. In fact better than many on here. I remember him as always polite and never insulting, despite the level of abuse that he received.
I'd agree with that, with the caveat that it is perfectly possible to engage in some seriously bad-faith debating without letting the politeness slip. See also: Jacob Rees-Mogg.
This still has the effect of winding people up. Sometimes, making other people lose their rags and look undignified while maintaining your composure is part of the appeal.
Indeed there is sometimes some pretty nasty stuff said on here with a veneer of civility to cover it up (eg some comments on the "royal racism rumble" thread suggesting the victim was asking for it because of the way she was dressed) which IMO are far worse than displaying a bit of anger or getting a bit sweary about something you care deeply about.
JHJ was a strange one but granted, even though some of his opinions required some truly jaw dropping leaps of logic he never (to my recollection) showed any real biogotry or seemed to take it personally as CT types go he seemed like fairly decent chap, just so long as you stayed away from certain topics.
Someone I could actually "agree to disagree" with.
Ultimately, a lot of these conspiracy theories don’t really affect life as we know it.
The issue is that once you've been convinced about one of them it's much, much more likely that you'll be sucked into one of the truly toxic ones, one minute it's largely silly nonsense like chem-trails, the next it's Anti-Vax, Q-anon, Incel ideology and the Great Replacement Theory, all theories with an measurable bodycount.
You are obviously dismissive of Lao Tzu’s observation that every journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.
By the time one is posting on a Biking website and you have a cache of photos at your finger-tips of Prince Charles and Jimmy Saville together, and your thought is not "Famous people have their photo taken a lot" then you're are well down the road, and you're not taking your first steps, and there's nothing that anyone on here is going to say that will persuade you that you've been wasting their time.
so no, I just don't engage.
"I’d agree with that, with the caveat that it is perfectly possible to engage in some seriously bad-faith debating without letting the politeness slip. See also: Jacob Rees-Mogg.
This still has the effect of winding people up. Sometimes, making other people lose their rags and look undignified while maintaining your composure is part of the appeal."
In all his posts that I saw, I never recall him stooping so low as to liken another poster to Jacob Rees Mogg
It is perfectly possible to engage in some seriously bad-faith debating without letting the politeness slip. See also: Jacob Rees-Mogg.
This still has the effect of winding people up. Sometimes, making other people lose their rags and look undignified while maintaining your composure is part of the appeal.
Quoted slightly out of context, but my gosh that is 100% on the money.
I’d agree with that, with the caveat that it is perfectly possible to engage in some seriously bad-faith debating without letting the politeness slip.
Bad faith? Are you seriously suggesting that JHJ was trolling and didn't believe any of his conspiracy theories?
I have no idea whether Jacob Rees-Mogg believes everything he spouts but I had no reason to doubt JHJ sincerity, or that he was responsible for "making other people lose their rags and look undignified".
And just to reiterate not all JHJ conspiracy theories were bullshit imo, eg Jimmy Savile was known by many to be a paedophile long before he died, and yet he was considered untouchable because of who he knew, probably also a lot of truth concerning dodgy dealings with the Saudi Royal Family.
Who is/was JHJ? Highlights please.
Jivehoneyjive is a former STWer who had a passion for conspiracy theories involving politicians and members of the Royal Family.
It was a total obsession of his. He posted lots of what he believed were damning photos of high profile people.
It wasn't all bullshit imo but he took it to an extreme and threads could be a tad overwhelmed by them.
I don't know when he last made an appearance but I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised, or disappointed, if he made a return.
Jivehoneyjive, that's the badger, thanks
Fwiw JhJ still posts but seems to avoid that sort of thread (mostly) and when they do post on that sort of thing there's a hint of self awareness too. Not sure if that means they've been harangued into submission, have started picking their battles or have just changed their world view but their approach always seemed different to the newer (often covid related) conspiracy theorists that we've heard from lately.
Jivehoneyjive is a former STWer
he posted yesterday? https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/nuke-proof-giga-dodgy-frame-bearings-8-weeks-advice-needed/page/1/#post-12674923
he posted yesterday?
But not in the conspiracy related threads....
Makes you think
He's been quiet since the queen died.
Makes you think...
Probably mod warnings that have led JHJ to ignore threads he might make a useful contribution.
Fwiw JhJ still posts but seems to avoid that sort of thread (mostly) and when they do post on that sort of thing there’s a hint of self awareness too. Not sure if that means they’ve been harangued into submission,
The problem with JHJ's conspiracy posts was that they were hugely disruptive. They were walls of text pages long with spurious photographs of people shaking hands, usually with relevance to the ongoing discussion being tenuous at best. It'd be like, over in the current discussion about touch-screens in cars, suddenly dropping a photo of Elon Musk and Jimmy Savile in the same room, with three screenfuls of text that said little more than "there may be a link between..."
I don't know about being "harangued" but he received multiple warnings and temporary bans not for his ideas but for the disruptive nature of how he posted them. He would have been welcome to post his conspiracy theories in a thread about conspiracy theories.
Fwiw JhJ still posts
Cool. I didn't think that it had been very long since he last posted, nor that he wouldn't again in the near future. But yeah, he's been relatively quiet and not drawing attention to himself as previously.
Perhaps he has had a warning but I can't see why that would be necessary, he's entitled to his views as much as anyone else, and was never IME offensive.
They were walls of text pages long with spurious photographs of people shaking hands
Embrace the power of scrolling, it's really not that difficult. I have no problem ignoring what I'm not interested in. There isn't an obligation to read everything posted.
Being right once does not validate everything they have been saying all along. It does in their own eyes, the eyes of people who want to believe them and (this is where it gets really dangerous) in the eyes of someone a bit susceptible that might just be scrolling past. I hope that is what you meant.
That's precisely what I meant, yes. It validates it to themselves.
This is the thread for ebikes right?
That’s precisely what I meant, yes. It validates it to themselves.
Cool - just checking. 👍
Sweet baby Jesus & the orphans
https://twitter.com/Nezzzooo/status/1608583384607133697?t=OGrdKc85mjwMRr5Cs3rIpg&s=19
^^One of his lesser crimes but a crime non the less.
You do have to marvel at the sheer twuntishness it takes for anyone to back the guy, even slightly.
As I pointed out to one of his supporters on FB - the guy you idolise has recently started an unprovoked spat with a teenage girl. A teenage girl who has pwned him epically, twice. And he got himself nicked in the process. Who else do you have as a role model? Wile E Coyote? The chap got quite angry. Must be all the smalldickenergy.
Great but seems to miss the point that you can only drive one car at a time though and most people who own those sort of cars don't drive them a lot but carry on.
The frothers on both sides of this would be no loss to humanity.
Taint & Thunbergs vapid twitter fanculbs are equally worthless.
You might see an equivalence between "misogyny and rape culture" and environmentalism, I certainly don't see the parallels.
The frothers on both sides of this would be no loss to humanity.
Taint & Thunbergs vapid twitter fanculbs are equally worthless.
Which is presumably why the United Nations asked a 16 year old Greta Thunberg to give a major speech to the UN Climate Action Summit.
And to emphasis her worthlessness the UN featured her predominantly on their website:
https://www.un.org/development/desa/youth/news/2019/09/greta-thunberg/
The frothers on both sides of this would be no loss to humanity.
Taint & Thunbergs vapid twitter fanculbs are equally worthless.
Hmmm.....
I kind of wish Greta could focus on her mission and not get sidelined into arguing with people like Tate and Trump, she has a lot of good things to say and a lot of followers particularly among the young that have a big stake in the future of the planet. I don't see them in anything like the same category as Tate's angry incel army.
At the same time, racism, misogyny, etc. should be challenged where it occurs and while I don't particularly think she has gone out of her way to create the arguments (I may be wrong?), where eg: Trump belittled her than I can see why she feels it has to be challenged. Which creates another set of followers on the 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' basis that muddies the mission. I still don't see them in anything like the same category as a Tate follower, but (nods to Echo chamber thread) that might be because I am quite polarised on this. A true neutral might see these two sides as being equally pointless.
I kind of wish Greta could focus on her mission and not get sidelined into arguing with people like Tate and Trump
Does she though? I thought she was taunted by Tate and she responded by very effectively making him look like a small dick, so to speak. How much effort is that likely to have taken her?
I don't see the point of ignoring attacks from the United States President or an individual with huge and growing influence among boys and young men.
These are perfectly legitimate, and crucially, important targets for her, especially when they are attacking her. And all the more so when she comes out of it much better than they do.
Like I said , whether she creates it deliberately or accidentally once they come at her she kind of has to respond - she has a platform and misogyny etc should never be unchallenged.
It's not necessarily her time I mean - you're right those responses will have taken very little. What I mean is that we have 8 pages of Thunberg Vs Tate, mirrored across media, etc. And her real mission is nowhere to be seen, lost behind a beef that creates clicks and sells papers.
I don't think her mission is lost on all this, this is more the, hopefully, downfall of a narcissistic dangerous individual.
Greta will no doubt pick up followers from this who will see her message, may be even some of the Tate followers may see a better way.
My son had seen some of this Tate characters stuff and he can be easily led, so we've had a few chats about it. The Greta response was thankfully wholeheartedly supported and enjoyed by him, and its helped reinforce our discussions about cock wombles like Tate.
So saving the planet and helping guide young lads through the wilds of the internet means she's a true hero in my eyes.
Further - Tate didn't come at her because she is an environmentalist. OK, he used his 33 cars worth of emissions as the vehicle for it, but why isn't he also beefing at Attenborough or James Hansen or...... he started on her because she is a young powerful woman, and that fits his twisted narrative. If she'd been a food poverty campaigner he'd probably have pictured himself throwing the remains of a massive banquet away.
@twistedpencil; maybe, I hope you're right
Mleh, thinks he's Beast, when he's really Gaston.
Hope they lock him up for years.
thinks he’s Beast, when he’s really Gaston.
🤣
I may borrow that...
May need to check that later with the wife. When the kids were younger and we went to Eurodisney, we went to all the character meet and greets, and while Ariel, Snow White, Mary Poppins..... were all perfectly lovely, it was only Gaston that caused weak kneed childish giggling among the adults.
I shall see if Tate generates the same excitement 😉
It's good every now and again to read a piece of cheery news which warms the cockles of your heart.
The Guardian: Andrew Tate loses legal appeal to end detention in Romania.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/10/andrew-tate-loses-legal-appeal-to-end-detention-in-romania
"A total of 15 luxury cars and more than 10 properties or plots of land have so far been seized in Romania. The country’s organised crime agency, Diicot, said the belongings were confiscated to prevent them being concealed, to help pay for the investigation, and to pay damages to victims if the suspects are convicted."
I saw that, cheered me up.
I love the way that moving to Romania so he could take advantage of a "relaxed" atmosphere towards his "work" seems to have backfired nicely. I'm sure Romanian jails are just lovely places
I have just read elsewhere that the two judges who heard Andrew Tate's appeal were both women, that must have hurt and added considerably to his humiliation.
Also apparently it is very likely that the prosecution will seek to extend his detention in the weeks to come due to the complexities of the case, and that no one expects it to come to court anytime soon.
Having watched a few clips of Andrew Tate on my social media feed, the rate at which it changed my algorithm was really alarming..... suddenly I found myself being fed all sorts of incel, trumpist nonsense.
I rarely see my nephew (12) because I can't stand my sister, and his father is a bigot - but the last time I saw him he asked whether I thought: "equality is the opposite of masculinity". It terrifies me that 12 year old boys are being offered up this garbage, and if they display any kind of curiosity about it, it then just triggers a clockwork-orange style deluge of content which must be brainwashing them to some degree.
I do picture kids sitting in history lessons in the future, writing essays about "the impact on society of the emergence of social media in the early 21st century" and citing examples about Cambridge Analytica, Brexit, Trump vs clinton etc. At this rate, I think Andrew Tate will probably be in there too
I've said it before. People will look back in 30 years time at unregulated SM in the same way we look back at smoking indoors, lead in paint and not wearing seat-belts.
Some of us don't need to wait 30 years though do we.
Some of us don’t need to wait 30 years though do we.
That's the thing though - doesn't matter if you/me/one is wise to it - social media is so omnipresent in young people's lives (in particular) and getting worse, even if this sort of thing only "resonates" with a small %, that's going to be millions of people - certainly enough to influence wider society, which (much to my chagrin) I remain part of.
I just looked through my spam folder for an email I should have received, noticed a fair few emails with titles like "Andrew Tate attacked, the matrix is coming or him". Looks like his fanbois are being targeted with malware as they are probably seen as easy marks.
I just looked through my spam folder for an email I should have received, noticed a fair few emails with titles like “Andrew Tate attacked, the matrix is coming or him”. Looks like his fanbois are being targeted with malware as they are probably seen as easy marks.
There was a leak/attack of Twitter usernames and e-mail addresses recently, so except a lot of new crap for a while.
I don't think it is anything to do with a twitter leak, I just think it is titled to appeal to a gullible demographic.
In 2019 the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) declined to pursue charges against Tate for any of these allegations. The woman who supplied police with messages sent by Tate said police told her charges were not brought because there was “an ounce of doubt” in the case.
If this is true it helps to explain Tate's apparent brazen confidence and obvious sense of entitlement.
The message that would send to a narcissist is that they are untouchable.
He must feel very confused now as he sits in a prison cell contemplating his current situation.
I wonder if he had time to pack his silk dressing gown and a box of large cigars at the time of his arrest?
I am trying to imagine how miserable he might feel.
More good news. https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1614256309024755713?s=46&t=d1bJiACDDqg76z9fObmp2g
Anyone suggesting Thunberg should do x or not do y needs to have a look at themselves.
She can do what the hell she wants.
She was 17 or something when asked to speak at some UN green washing event and she basically called them all out for being useless ****s.
She is ace.
And then she didn't attend COP27 because it is "used as an opportunity for leaders and people in power to get attention’". When we look back in history everyone will realise that Thunberg was consistently correct and on the right side while the like of Tate were consistently backward looking ****ers.
Detained until 27th Feb. Bummer
Detained until 27th Feb. Bummer
Maybe he'll receive some of that the longer he's detained!
Doubt it. He’s a world champ kick-boxer. You not watched any Jean Claude van Damme films? 🤣
I'm not entirely convinced that Romanian prison showers operate on 1-on-1 'fair fight' rules.
I'd never heard of him until this thread popped up. The Behind the Bastards podcast is now running a couple of episodes about him (and his ideology).
I’m not entirely convinced that Romanian prison showers operate on 1-on-1 ‘fair fight’ rules.
Hopefully it'll be like Shawshank redemption. The more you struggle the more they like it.
That article ^ turned my stomach...... but this bit raised a slight suggestion of a smirk:
Daria, who's now at university in the UK, is the daughter of a prominent Romanian politician
Hopefully it’ll be like Shawshank redemption. The more you struggle the more they like it.
Hopefully people will stop joking about rape.