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I run a car allowance instead of company car and our policy states car must be no older than 4 years old and mine has just had it's sixth birthday. It's a perfectly reliable Mercedes E class that's been faultless and maintained without expense, but I'm starting to get a bit of a nudge from work.
So, after looking at lots of cars that are now £10k more expensive than they were 2 years ago when new, I thought I'd test drive a Polestar 2 and placed an initial order as there's a few kicking round.
THEN, I start to do the maths of calculating how much per mile it will cost to run, as I'm paid the advisory fuel rates for travelling (after monthly car allowance) and with the EV it's 5p per mile, the Mercedes is 16p per mile.
First issue I've had is Polestar don't offer charger unit for home, so I'm a grand down. My electricity supplier (Scottish Power) fitted a PAYG meter to my property before I moved in and finally after 2 years of hassle, it was swapped to a smart meter last month, but still on a PAYG tariff, which means I'm illegible for a quote for EV tariff's and have to commit to monthly direct debit account before they will quote me.
Spoke to Octopus energy who do a tariff for 5p Kwh but can only do 35 hours a week between 12-5am, so I need a smart charger to start the charging within these hours. No commitment to keep the rates low with the price cap changes etc
Then I rang my insurers and they gave me a quote which I thought hadn't included my 8 years NCD.
This is turning out to be a right carry on and buying an EV that needs constant management of it's capabilities of range that's equal to a 3.0 diesel German executive car is pushing back towards get another ICE car.
You're largely describing a set of circumstances that pertain to you rather than electric cars - looks like its probably a bad time for you to buy an EV. But other peoples circumstances will differ.
The next “diesel gate” springs to mind when electric cars come to mind.
The next “diesel gate” springs to mind when electric cars come to mind.
In what way?
Sold a misnomer?
So, after looking at lots of cars that are now £10k more expensive than they were 2 years ago when new,
That applies to almost every car on the market new and old. Ev and combustion though
Your company car policy sounds like the perfect application of a vanity plate.....
yea, leave saving the environment to the private sector, they can fix anything.
Have you looked at what cars are available on the company car scheme? It may be time to sign up for it.
It's a simple Cost Benefit Analysis, work it out, you have to get something again in 4 years by the sounds of it, so is it worth waiting until 2025/26 to see the benefit of moving to EV, we're the same, would love to get a new car, but putting it off until we see some more funding/benefits kicking in for EV to make it more appealing.
yea, leave saving the environment to the private sector, they can fix anything
Video conferencing has come on leaps and bounds in the last 2 years.
But that doesn't build the old boys club like their coffees and beers on your P card.
t’s a simple Cost Benefit Analysis, work it out, you have to get something again in 4 years by the sounds of it, so is it worth waiting until 2025/26 to see the benefit of moving to EV, we’re the same, would love to get a new car, but putting it off until we see some more funding/benefits kicking in for EV to make it more appealing.
That's what I'm doing now. If EV's can continue to enjoy a low Kwh rate to charge at home, it could make sense, but the energy market is too volatile. Even when diesel was £1.50 a litre, i was still getting near 50mpg from the merc and the 16p per mile would just cover it.
I looked at an A4 Avant, 2.0tdi 163bhp Black Edition earlier, £35k for a two year old one and the VED was £500 a year as the RRP was over £40k. So i have £2k of VED over 4 years, then servicing etc, whereas the Polestar has three years free servicing, no VED and no risk of any out of pocket bills like I have with a 6 year old 90k mileage car.
So i have £2k of VED over 4 years, then servicing etc, whereas the Polestar has three years free servicing, no VED and no risk of any out of pocket bills
So what's the question. Seems like it's a good fit for you.....
as above, if a company car scheme is available to you and you're interested in electric, its probably much cheaper to go through it.
And yes, 25 years ago was a worse time to buy an EV, the only one really around was the GM EV1 and if you bought one of those they took it back off you and crushed it
What would happen if you ignored the nudges and just carried on with the reliable car you have?
We have similar conditions at work. Although they seem to be realising that the more restrictive they make the conditions, the more they get ignored.
The trap of a car on "the scheme" at our place is that it ties you in for 3 years. If you leave in that time, it's your lease deal that you have to sort out/be penalised for. It's like signing on for a number of years in the forces. There's a bill if you decide to leave the company early!
Yes about 5 years ago or so when more were sub 50 mile range and took hours to charge.
more funding/benefits kicking in for EV to make it more appealing.
Like what? Home charge grant is about to go. Plug-in car grant got cut again in December (both amount and the list price it can apply to) and will likely be phased out entirely over the coming years.
OZEV have a limited pot of money and with sales roughly doubling every year don't expect them to get any better.
This particular situation is about the least favourable though, particularly if they only pay advisory rates for fuel. Worth seeing if your company would consider doing company cars, or a salary sacrifice scheme, both of which mean you benefit from the 1% (rising to 2%) BIK.
What would happen if you ignored the nudges and just carried on with the reliable car you have?
Not sure, I've already said to them if they want to fire me because of the age of my car then do so.
They have a perception that I'm making a killing on old car that is still financed to it's value, I still have the liability of the finance in the event that I get laid off.
Companies attitudes to sales people and company cars in the last few years have really shifted. This company had a car sat idle for nearly a year and after that they then brought in car allowances. As usual, everything is always weighted in their favour, they even claim the VAT back on the fuel I buy ffs.
I assume they have upped your car allowances in line with the costs of <4 year old car costs ?*
* I can guess the answer.
What about contacting Ling for some advice?
Why does it have to be an EV (or a diesel)?
Just lease a petrol car for 3 years until EV prices have came down a bit, you can have some pretty amazing petrol cars for 50k compared to a pretty boring imo polestar.
What about contacting Ling for some advice?
I've asked my brother in law 😉
Why does it have to be an EV (or a diesel)?
It doesn't
Just lease a petrol car for 3 years until EV prices have came down a bit, you can have some pretty amazing petrol cars for 50k compared to a pretty boring imo polestar.
Leasing is super expensive as it's tied to an annual mileage and most want hideous deposits. I've stayed away from petrol for last 20 years as economy isn't great for doing 20k+ a year. Admittedly, they are a lot better these days.
I'd be fuming if my company wanted me to bin a perfectly decent car at great cost. I do get a car allowance but the only stipulation is that it has to be 'in good order' or something*. We don't even have to use it.
Seriously though, much as I am a fan of EVs it is early days of mass adoption and there are issues. I paid £400 out of the £700 cost for a smart charger with scheduling and that, and I am on Octopus Go. These are ok for me but I'm not a sales type.
Re the car prices, demand is high and supply is very limited. They are all way more expensive than 6 months ago when I shopped for mine.
* and no-one's ever come round for a car inspection
Shouldn’t be a need for a smart charger - use the car to time the charges; it’s what we do even though we have a charger that can be controlled via WiFi etc. it’s proven to be more reliable to program the car.
Octopus Go tariff is great. We have our dishwasher, washing machine and will have our immersion heater all running between 12:30 and 4:30 (not 12 and 5 BTW) as well as having the car charge.
I ran my ex-military Defender on the company car allowance - obviously wasn't stipulation on age/appearance! Thankfully I never had to go anywhere.
Could you simply forego the car allowance? That way you wouldn’t be bound by the scheme rules.
Octopus Go tariff is great. We have our dishwasher, washing machine and will have our immersion heater all running between 12:30 and 4:30 (not 12 and 5 BTW) as well as having the car charge.
Do you have any concerns about your appiances malfuntioning / catching fire in the night?
I used to always run things when I was in bed or at work - but when I got together with my wife, whose job at the time included assesing the aftermath of many house fires, it put me right off.
Did you have bad credit at one point OP with having the pay as you go meter in or was it that you have just moved to a house that was PAYG? I would be in touch with the regulator if its the latter.
As to charging in the night, the car will come with an App that allows you to set the hours of when it charges so you dont charge outside the cheaper times.
We are getting an EV vehicle soon, and we worked out it would be cheaper to stay on a normal elec tariff rather than go for car charging tariff.
I really would be going back to your organisation though and asking 1. What are the eco reasons for swapping cars. 2. Have you got a salary sacrifice scheme as electric EV's are so expensive to buy privately which is in essence what you are doing
Where I work we get a car allowance and an equivalently restricted mileage value, luckily no age restriction (nor requirement to actually own a car).
It's the first place I've worked in +30 years of business travelling (and car allowances) that doesn't pay the full HMRC ppm rate - tight barstewards, consequently I only drive in their time and organise my trips to suit me.
BTW you do claim back your tax on the difference between HMRC 45ppm and your company 16ppm don't you?
Similar position, it made sense from a tax perspective to take an EV than pay tax on a vehicle contribution or higher BIK. This won't always be the case of course!
That aside, you're right, they're more expensive to run than you'd realise.
That’s what I’m doing now. If EV’s can continue to enjoy a low Kwh rate to charge at home, it could make sense, but the energy market is too volatile.
Overnight rates should be less volatile as they're the big baseload generators like nuclear and there's a smaller market to sell it into. It's cheap because it's not having to account for the spikes in the daytime that push the wholesale (i.e. before the energy company has made any profit, or paid the grid, taxes, etc) price up over 50p/kwh which is driven by the cost of running gas turbines which are paid a staggering amount per kwh to deliver a small portion of the total and drag the average up.
Even when diesel was £1.50 a litre, i was still getting near 50mpg from the merc and the 16p per mile would just cover it.
But you're also paying that much for private use, whereas the EV would be (almost) free to run.
They have a perception that I’m making a killing on old car that is still financed to it’s value, I still have the liability of the finance in the event that I get laid off.
After 6 years on the allowance are you not in profit on the Merc? If not could you not use that as an argument with HR that either their allowance is too low or the stipulations on model/age are too onerous?
Put a private plate on the car and tell them you bought a newer version of the same thing😁
Do you have any concerns about your appiances malfuntioning / catching fire in the night?
Our dishwasher caught fire. Luckily I was in the kitchen at the time, heard it making some weird noises, opened the door and there were flames in the base! Unplugged it and carried it out to garden quickly! (It was slimline so not too heavy)
I'd never run anything at night whislt in bed now.
I’d never run anything at night whislt in bed now.
Apart from the fridge, the wifi router, phone chargers and a whole load of stuff on standby if your house is anything like ours.
It’s the first place I’ve worked in +30 years of business travelling (and car allowances) that doesn’t pay the full HMRC ppm rate – tight barstewards
Mine doesn't, but then the fuel expenses are meant to only cover fuel, and the allowance for the other costs. Which it can cover easily.
I’ve stayed away from petrol for last 20 years as economy isn’t great for doing 20k+ a year.
With that annual mileage I'd have gone the company car option so I wouldn't have to worry about tyres, servicing and unexpected breakages etc especially with a car which must be over 100k mileage by now but I guess you have your reasons for going with car allowance. Also with that mileage I would have thought the personal lease costs of a vehicle will be eyewatering.
Unless your travelling is mostly out and back to home each day I'd be tempted to stick with an ICE vehicle as public charging will take more trip planning, time and frustration than finding a filling station at least for a couple more years until EV charging infrastructure improves. Maybe push back and keep your old Merc another year or two.
Mine doesn’t, but then the fuel expenses are meant to only cover fuel, and the allowance for the other costs. Which it can cover easily.
You obviously get a big allowance.
FWIW I was getting £9.5k back in 2008, and 40ppm - now it's £3.5k and 13ppm.
And that £3.5k is gross, so net is barely £150pcm - what you buying/running for £150 per month when it can't be older than 4 years?
You obviously get a big allowance.
It's about £450 pre-tax. That's enough to make a sizeable contribution to a decent car. It paid for the Passat and most of its insurance, whilst it was on finance, then I trousered the rest after it was paid off (and then spent a load more of it on repairs "lol"). But since it's my car I can do as many of my own miles as I want in it, and I did do a lot.
And that £3.5k is gross, so net is barely £150pcm – what you buying/running for £150 per month when it can’t be older than 4 years?
Yeah that's a shit deal.
Re the car yeah I would probably not want to be driving an EV if I had to be running about the country on a deadline. The long trips I've done have required a good deal scouting and planning to make sure I had a refill (although my car has a meagre range). A PHEV would be a good option though, you could do your town driving at least on leccy, and if you're going to a city you can save your leccy for when you get to the city at your destination.
Have you challenged the 4 year company policy?
My company does the same, but when I joined I got a concession from my boss because my car, although older than 4 years was very low mileage. They also weren't going to miss out on hiring me on this policy point.
After that (3 years ago) nobody checks up anymore, so I just drive whatever age car I want.
Don't spend a fortune and go through all the faff on the basis of a company policy that they possibly don't enforce or care about.
Did you have bad credit at one point OP with having the pay as you go meter in or was it that you have just moved to a house that was PAYG? I would be in touch with the regulator if its the latter.
No, I've just been offered a £50k car on finance. The house I bought was an ex rental and previous tenant had one fitted. It's taken me nearly 18 months to have it swapped out to a smart meter then I can now swap supplier, it's been a total nightmare. I had to complain to OFGEM as nobody would touch it.
BTW you do claim back your tax on the difference between HMRC 45ppm and your company 16ppm don’t you?
Yes, factored in.
After 6 years on the allowance are you not in profit on the Merc?
Only had the Merc a year, but have buyer and it's enough to pay off finance owing. last company had 7 year policy on company car.
Have you challenged the 4 year company policy?
My company does the same, but when I joined I got a concession from my boss because my car, although older than 4 years was very low mileage. They also weren’t going to miss out on hiring me on this policy point.
They've said they'd expect me to change this year as everyone else is in fairly new cars and get the same allowance. I have a good job and don't plan leaving nor rocking the boat.
With that annual mileage I’d have gone the company car option so I wouldn’t have to worry about tyres, servicing and unexpected breakages etc especially with a car which must be over 100k mileage by now but I guess you have your reasons for going with car allowance. Also with that mileage I would have thought the personal lease costs of a vehicle will be eyewatering.
No company car option. Allowance only, they moved away from cars years ago as everyone wanted allowances. I'd prefer a company car and just suffer the tax, but the last three jobs I've had have all been allowances.
You obviously get a big allowance.
FWIW I was getting £9.5k back in 2008, and 40ppm – now it’s £3.5k and 13ppm.
And that £3.5k is gross, so net is barely £150pcm – what you buying/running for £150 per month when it can’t be older than 4 years?
£650pcm + the AFR rates which are 16ppm Derv or 5ppm, then claim the tax back on the difference at year end.
Don’t spend a fortune and go through all the faff on the basis of a company policy that they possibly don’t enforce or care about.
I work for a small company with flat management, it was a condition of my employment.
the AFR rates which are 16ppm Derv
Glad you clarified, I thought for a moment you might be using red diesel.
SP can normally switch a smart meter from ppm to credit and back remotely.
Ask them to do it and complain if they don't.
16ppm Derv or 5ppm, then claim the tax back on the difference at year end.
Surely at 5 ppm on an electric car you'll be getting a tax bill.
Tax man rate is 4 pence.
Your company are pretty stingy when it comes to expecting you to pay to run (£50k)a car for them.
Tbh their rates are penalising you for having running an EV on their behalf.
I'm in the camp of just about to lease an ICE.
I did look at all electric, but the additional upfront cost of putting a charge point in was another thing to put me off.
- upgrade consumer unit,
- Add new circuit, 20 metres from house - that means a 20 metre trench,
etc, etc.
Also, most of my trips out would need careful planning to ensure range, re-charging etc. Every day is a different workplace.
In fact, I stayed away from home last night in a Premier Inn in a rural market town....no charge point in the car park.
I would have been stuffed.
Luckily, there was a petrol station just around the corner!!!
For all those wanting an ICE doesn't PHEV help?
Just lease a petrol car for 3 years until EV prices have came down a bit, you can have some pretty amazing petrol cars for 50k compared to a pretty boring imo polestar.
Greta will love you.
WRT the thread title, I'd just say it's the worst time to buy any car!!
Greta will love you
Ask me if I'm bothered?
Ask me if I’m bothered?
Ask yourself if you should be?
Ask yourself if you should be?
Have you asked yourself if you should be bothered about the enormous environmental damage and use of huge amounts of scare fresh water caused by lithium and cobalt mining?
Have you asked yourself if you should be bothered about the enormous environmental damage and use of huge amounts of scare fresh water caused by lithium and cobalt mining?
Have you asked yourself how informed your opinion is?
Most articles published on battery production assume disposal at end of life at an average of 8 years...this isn't remotely true. 15 years is widely believed to be the tipping point for a modern EV battery. Even then, it's use in energy storage is almost a given. Even after that, research suggests that 85% of the rare materials used in EV batteries can be recycled.
The newest battery technology doesn't use just lithium, they can use sulfur or sodium, greatly reducing the amount of mining/extraction which needs to be done.
The latest Li batteries don't even use cobalt.
Even under the worst of circumstances (energy generation using FF, large, inefficient EV driven poorly) an EV will environmentally pay for itself in 10 years (100k km). Under the best, less than 2 years (20k km).
Wife was getting our 10 year old car serviced at the local BMW dealership, and had a wander round the new car showroom looking at EVs and hybrids. Even the sales staff advised her to keep our car for a few more years until the range, reliability and charging infrastructure matures. This is where my thinking is at, but was surprising to hear this from people with a vested interest and commission to sell new cars.
I think it depends on your usage. If most of your trips start and end at home and you have the ability to home charge, it's an easy switch. Just chose a car which suits 95% of your trips and either hire for the remaining 5% or accept that it's more awkward. If you don't/can't do those things, I'd probably suggest a Tesla or sticking with ICE.
A self charging hybrid might also be an option.
Have you asked yourself if you should be bothered about the enormous environmental damage and use of huge amounts of scare fresh water caused by lithium and cobalt mining?
Someone needs to stop reading the Daily Mail.
Surely arguing about whether EV or ICE is more or less damaging to the environment is splitting hairs. You don’t save the environment by buying new cars. If the OP is concerned about the environment then surely keeping the existing Merc is the thing to do.
+1 roverpig or just get a smaller ice car and drive less if you're worried about the environment.
Surely arguing about whether EV or ICE is more or less damaging to the environment is splitting hairs. You don’t save the environment by buying new cars. If the OP is concerned about the environment then surely keeping the existing Merc is the thing to do.
I don't think there is any simple right or wrong answer. If the Merc stays on the road with a new owner then it makes little difference.
Even deciding not to have a car is potentially problematic. How will you spend the money with less environmental impact?
Surely arguing about whether EV or ICE is more or less damaging to the environment is splitting hairs. You don’t save the environment by buying new cars. If the OP is concerned about the environment then surely keeping the existing Merc is the thing to do.
Just get a smaller ice car & drive less if you’re really worried about the environment.
Both perfectly valid points, but for some (drive for work), it's not an option. I do think that companies which require such large amounts of miles/year that there should be some form of environmental penalty levied where they haven't tried hard enough to reduce the effects.
You don’t save the environment by buying new cars.
No but if you need one anyway.. like for example one gets crashed or goes rusty or whatever, then you should think about an EV.
Have you asked yourself if you should be bothered about the enormous environmental damage and use of huge amounts of scare fresh water caused by lithium and cobalt mining?
I have yes, but you're deflecting the question. SHOULD you care if you are doing the right thing or not? You've answered that question indirectly, you apparently do think you should care.
If the Merc stays on the road with a new owner then it makes little difference.
It does. If the OP has to buy a new car then it's one more car being made, and at the other end of the chain that means one more car being scrapped. And most cars that are scrapped would be perfectly repairable, they just don't get repaired because the cost is below their market value. And if there weren't so many new cars coming into the top end, then their market value would be higher and they'd be repaired.
Have you asked yourself if you should be bothered about the enormous environmental damage and use of huge amounts of scare fresh water caused by lithium and cobalt mining?
Best you don't research how steel, aluminium, cement etc etc are 'created'...
Both perfectly valid points, but for some (drive for work), it’s not an option
I drive for work, used to do 30k pa in an astra sized daewoo 20yrs ago, now much less & mostly by tube & bus in London. Only went for bigger cars when my 3 sons grew to 6ft+ & even then we managed camping & bikes without resorting to anything bigger than a mondeo hatch. Most peoples "need" is actually a "want".
Best you don’t research how steel, aluminium, cement etc etc are ‘created’…
Not to mention the petroleum industry. Did you know that burning petroleum products produces huge amounts of CO2 which is having a terrible impact on the global environment?
was surprising to hear this from people with a vested interest and commission to sell new cars
I've had the same - was chatting to the new car sales person about buying an EV when I collected my car after its MoT and they basically said that now was not a good time to buy a new car unless you absolutely have to. Not what I expected, but then given that they're struggling to make enough cars to meet demand at the moment perhaps not surprising.
It does. If the OP has to buy a new car then it’s one more car being made, and at the other end of the chain that means one more car being scrapped.
I agree, generally cars are not repaired because it no longer makes financial sense.
This leads to oddities such as VW Camper vans which hold their value well not entirely based on actual quality but because of perceived quality. Because they hold their value well, they are worth fixing for longer. As such there are more examples of older vehicles on the road. Thus perpetuating the myth of quality.
The chip shortage may be good for the environment by pushing up the value of secondhand cars and keeping them on the road longer.
I’d agree that if you have to buy a new car then buying an EV is probably better for the environment than a new ICE car, but it’s marginal and misses the point. Surely the question should be whether you really need a new car. If you want to help the environment then drive less and keep your car for longer. Trying to claim that you are helping the environment by buying a new EV is like trying to claim that you are dieting because you put natural yoghurt on your chocolate pudding instead of ice cream.
And if there weren’t so many new cars coming into the top end, then their market value would be higher and they’d be repaired.
Which is currently what we are experiencing.
Tbh France and Spain - used cars hold their value and so are repaired longer... You see alot more old cars on the roads over there.
Trying to claim that you are helping the environment by buying a new EV is like trying to claim that you are dieting because you put natural yoghurt on your chocolate pudding instead of ice cream.
This is where I'm at and hence the push back against people shouting the praises of EV cars as if it absolves them of their impact on the environment. They're currently far more expensive than ICE cars whatever way you do it and what I don't like is I can see us heading the way of it being socially unacceptable to have an ICE car due to people's opinions on the environmental impact. That will surely result in it simply being another reason being poor is seen as socially unacceptable?
Surely the question should be whether you really need a new car.
Which was the OPs point wasn't it?
They’re currently far more expensive than ICE cars
They will end up cheaper before long.
Cars getting scrapped in the UK isn't necessarily the end of the road. Lots get shipped to second and third world countries. What is left is often broken down for parts. Anything left after that is almost all recycled.
I am not disagreeing that we should buy less new cars. But as always it is complicated and the full environmental impacts are very difficult to calculate. I don't think we can be too judgemental on decisions other people make
I am of the mind that the only foolproof way to do less environmental damage is to earn/spend less money.
This is where I’m at and hence the push back against people shouting the praises of EV cars as if it absolves them of their impact on the environment.
Who's doing that?
Who’s doing that?
Lots of people
This is where I’m at and hence the push back against people shouting the praises of EV cars as if it absolves them of their impact on the environment.
I think that's your imagination. Most people know the downsides of EVs, but have considered that the upsides outweigh them. A quick search on here would show large numbers of people saying the exact same thing you are. Most people who are environmentally conscious are well aware of the issues with battery chemicals, but also aware of the changes in the industry (see above) which are being drive by demand. And demand is people buying EVs.
We are at the very very early stages of a big change in how transport is fuelled. Don't forget that renewable energy generation is also going up. In 20 years' time the carbon footprint of transport will be much less than today, but in our capitalist society this won't happen unless people buy the cars. Preferably without scrapping older cars first though.
Lots of people
It would be helpful if you could provide some examples.
It would be helpful if you could provide some examples.
To be fair ransos is right.
Most folk are too busy telling you how their electric car is cheaper at point of use while blissfully ignoring the sunk cost.
Most folk are too busy telling you how their electric car is cheaper at point of use while blissfully ignoring the sunk cost.
Not really. The problem with the 'sunk cost' is that someone is paying it, and that can only be rolled up into the cost of the car. Unless you mean environmental cost, which clearly is there at the moment. But it's not clear exactly how much because if you Google for evidence you seem to get biased arguments or simply click-bait. It's not easy to determine the real facts.
However, a massive amount of research is going into improving it (I get daily stories based on published research not newspapers) and this is only happening because demand is there. And demand is only there because people are buying the cars.
Most people know the downsides of EVs, but have considered that the upsides outweigh them.
I don't think I've seen mention of how we need to decarbonise the National Grid? At the moment we're at 2.2% coal so you could argue that a lot of EVs are coal powered
Not really. The problem with the ‘sunk cost’ is that someone is paying it, and that can only be rolled up into the cost of the car.
Is that a round about way of making no point ?
Physical cost of purchase of ev is a significant number larger than of the equivalent petrol model.
That is the sunk upfront cost.
But point of use is cheaper and it's that that people keep going on about. Bit like when folk were screaming to buy tax free cars to save 200 quid a year yet spending 10 grand to do it.....