[Closed] Has striking ever worked in the long term?

No.

but it also seems to be the same groups that keep striking

Not every profession can strike effectively so you'll notice, say, the fire brigade striking even if it isn't that often really (is it not something like a decade since there was any really industrial action from the FB?) because its an essential service, they're nationwide, and its very news worthy.

I'm an artist. Believe it or not theres actually and artists union here in scotland. But I don't think if me and my comrades withdrew our labour anyone would notice or care, so striking isn't a tool some groups can use.

maccruiskeen, I agree that there are only certain professions that can strike effectively (and shit is it really that long since the last fire brigade strike, doesn't time fly 😯 ), but has strike action ever resulted in any long term benefit to the strikers?

no. and yes.

everyone loses out short term, but i think that if you roll over and let them do as they wish, they know theres no fight in the workforce and will be more likely to implement whatever other nasty little schemes they think of with no consequences.
if they know that to try and implement something nasty will lead to 'another fight like last time' then i honestly do think theyd think twice about it.......and then do it anyway 😀

No, it just exasperates the inevitable.

I think it makes sense for state employees eg teachers etc as there is an effective monopoly of employer ie there isn't a significant market for their roles outside of the state. With private industry employees, they can often go elsewhere if they don't like their employer etc.

I think the fact striking is legal suggestsit mayhave worked at sometime.

More about standing up for your perceived rights I think regardless of the outcome

That's how workers on good wages and conditions manage to get to that level, workers with an inability to take effective industrial action tend to be on low wages and poor conditions. Once it has been established that workers have a strong leverage through industrial action then striking is rare, take ASLEF as an example.

The news seems to be full of unions announcing strike action

if it worked then the same unions wouldn't have to keep doing

Well that's clearly not true. There are millions of trade unionists and strikes are extremely rare, and when they do occur they are almost always just for one day, they are almost never indefinite until the dispute has been resolved. As a consequence wages are falling and not keeping up with inflation.

It is extremely difficult to organise a strike in Britain. The law requires all sorts of information to be given to the employer such as advance notice, the numbers involved, precise location, etc, everything is stacked in the employers favour to minimise the effect of a strike. It's far easier to sack people, as Grangemouth proved.

The question which needs to be asked is does leaving all the power in the hands of employers, and allowing tax exiles to sack at will, ever work all term ?

EDIT : I think one day strikes and returning to work without resolving the dispute are probably a complete waste of time, long term. It just provides papers like the Sun a stick to beat unions with and employers can simply treat them like another royal wedding bank holiday.

Like prog rock, it seemed like a good idea in the 70's, where it enjoyed considerable success. Then very much falling out of favour in the 80's, eliciting something of a backlash, then became a forgotten irrelevance for a couple of decades, before being reappraised and now enjoying something of a renaissance

Like prog rock, it seemed like a good idea in the 70's, where it enjoyed considerable success.

Really??? Examples???

"YES" 😆

JEngledow - Member

The news seems to be full of unions announcing strike action

Oh go on, tell us about all the many many strikes that have been in the news?

Pink floyd?

I read somewhere that instead of striking, French train staff let passengers on the trains without tickets. Has the bonus effect of getting Joe Public onside, instead of pi55ing everyone off. That's got to be more successful at getting point across to your management than withrawing labour. (Obv knock on effect wouold be tix prices go up!).

I read somewhere that instead of striking, French train staff let passengers on the trains without tickets.

I like that!

Mind you here, they'd have the police lined up and just arrest everyone without a ticket.

That's how workers on good wages and conditions manage to get to that level

Are we talking blue collar here? The lower the skill required to do a job the greater the need for unions with some strength if employees are to earn more than the market dictates.

^ unforutnately for them, that tactic is a bit difficult for the grangemouth workers to pull off

I think its been proven quite effectivley recently that its not just the employees who can up sticks and go elsewhere...

One of the biggest issues is the golden goose principle that if workers price themselves out of the market, then sooner or later they will be replaced - the best example of course being the dockers, all the strikes in the world wouldn't save their jobs once the shipping container was invented!

Robot welders in car factories, CNC machines instead of lathe operators - all these things happened because there was a tipping point at which it was cheaper to use the machine than a person - and striking for higher wages and better conditions is only going to bring that closer.

In the future, with technology becoming ever cheaper we'll see examples like the london underground, where the investment to create driverless trains is getting very close to reality (and already is on the DLR). What are ASLEF going to do then?

pilotless planes is already close to reality, expensive doctors will at some point be replaced by 'star trek' medical scanners, the list goes on... Its an inexorable march of technology that striking won't prevent.

When the machines do all the work, what will the people do?

No, it just exasperates the inevitable.

Spoken like a little sheep from the great flock called the British workforce.

Does your employer know you are slacking on here? Get back to work! 😉

One of the biggest issues is the golden goose principle that if workers price themselves out of the market,

Well, if we are going to compete with the nations of the far east like your favourite Tory scum, politicians keep saying and not our ACTUAL rivals in the near continent, then you would have a point.

Oh go on, tell us about all the many many strikes that have been in the news?

Just from the last two days on the BBC website:

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24762990 ]Fire Brigade[/url]

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24748112 ]University Staff[/url]

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24749336 ]Royal Mail (although cancelled)[/url]

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24753469 ]Indonesians[/url]

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24768865 ]French Wendy-ballists[/url]

When the machines do all the work, what will the people do?

Well we can either find a fairer way of sharing the worlds resources to everyone's advantage. Or just allow a small elite live like kings while the majority are treated like vermin.

Just letting the "masters of the universe" trample all over us will surely result in the second option becoming reality.

JEngledow - Member

Just from the last two days on the BBC website:

2, in the UK. An autumn of discontent eh.

I think the fact striking is legal suggestsit mayhave worked at sometime.

Surely the fact that a lot of striking is now ILLEGAL suggests it was very effective back before Thatcher upped the stakes by having the cops assault strikers?

Well, if we are going to compete with the nations of the far east like your favourite Tory scum, politicians keep saying and not our ACTUAL rivals in the near continent, then you would have a point.

But they're not our actual rivals

Sure, in the short term we can offshore a job to China, but at some point wages go up, their workers conditions get better and China is no longer significantly cheaper to produce there (beginning to happen right now!) so it gets offshored to India and their wages go up, conditions get better and its no longer significantly cheaper to produce there then the same with Africa, (how's that for sharing the worlds resources to everyone's advantage)

The fact remains that our actual rivals in the long term are the machines that we've created - because when the job can't be done abroad, then there's a tipping point where technology ultimately strives to replace it.

Tell me, do you think that farriers going on strike would have stopped the car replacing the horse? Farmworkers versus the combine harvester?

Did the luddites manage to save their jobs?

2, in the UK. An autumn of discontent eh.

Actually it's 3 in the UK as the RM strike is still in the news! I was just saying that I've noticed strikes being mentioned in what feels like every news bulletin on the radio recently, but either way I wasn't saying it's a problem, I was just asking whether strike action works (and now I think about it, what is the real long term objective of strike action?)

Well we can either find a fairer way of sharing the worlds resources to everyone's advantage. Or just allow a small elite live like kings while the majority are treated like vermin.
Just letting the "masters of the universe" trample all over us will surely result in the second option becoming reality.

Yep.

The philipinos got rid of a dictatorship by taking all their money out of the bank and keeping it under the mattress and banging saucepans out of the windows every night.

edit - I read it in Republican Party Reptile so it must be true.

withdrawing money from banks does seem to be a powerful wake up call to the powers that be though.

They're only in the news so much because they're so rare.

Does it work now? Depends. I was out yesterday with Unison, over a pay deal which I am personally ambivalent about (we have good terms and conditions to compensate). It's a long-term negotiation and the strike's not going to change anything immediately but it all goes in the cake.

The question "has striking ever worked", historically yes, it's been a hugely powerful tool. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have such repressive anti-strike laws, governments have tried to ban strikes for as long as they've existed.

Sure, in the short term we can offshore a job to China, but at some point wages go up, their workers conditions get better and China is no longer significantly cheaper to produce there (beginning to happen right now!) so it gets offshored to India and their wages go up, conditions get better and its no longer significantly cheaper to produce there then the same with Africa, (how's that for sharing the worlds resources to everyone's advantage)

I see. So what you're saying is that all our rivals will end up like us, with the same sort of problems associated with machines taking over the jobs and similar standard of living.

So, If we will all be similar and therefore fairly equal, why this "workers pricing themselves out of the market" business then? All we have to do is keeping doing the things they don't and wait for them to catch up, thus giving us a bigger market to sell our specialist services to.

Of course I would interject here that cheaper workers with less rights that were fought for by unions=more profit.

ohnellison - Member
Like prog rock, it seemed like a good idea in the 70's, where it enjoyed considerable success.
Really??? Examples???

Well it was striking miners, amongst others who brought down the Heath government. I don't know about you, but I'd define booting out a Tory government as the very pinnacle of success. If only that were a proposition now to see the back of Dave and chums, before they can totally dismantle the welfare state and the NHS, and [s]privatise[/s] hand absolutely everything over to their greedy profiteering mates to asset strip, then sell back to us at a massive profit

But they're not our actual rivals

Sure, in the short term we can offshore a job to China, but at some point wages go up, their workers conditions get better and China is no longer significantly cheaper to produce there (beginning to happen right now!) so it gets offshored to India and their wages go up, conditions get better and its no longer significantly cheaper to produce there then the same with Africa, (how's that for sharing the worlds resources to everyone's advantage)

The fact remains that our actual rivals in the long term are the machines that we've created - because when the job can't be done abroad, then there's a tipping point where technology ultimately strives to replace it.

Tell me, do you think that farriers going on strike would have stopped the car replacing the horse? Farmworkers versus the combine harvester?

Did the luddites manage to save their jobs?

Yes to both of these...but

globalisation results in a leveling of standards between nations - but chinese standards don't have to rise to western standards...western standards can fall to chinese levels...more likely a common ground will emerge somewhere between...albeit nearer the chinese end, than the current western end..

however as you point out...the next battleground is casual unskilled labour....the other night there was a film inside a tesco home shopping distribution centre...minimum wage guys picking tins off shelves to fulfill orders....obvious place to mechanise...in a few years there won't be any minimum wage supermarket jobs.....driverless cars mean the delivery drivers/taxi drivers/bus drivers are all jobs of the past and not of the future.

Will we all finally have jetpacks by then?

Well, if we all had jetpacks, then ASLEF would really be screwed wouldn't they 😀

When the machines do all the work, what will the people do?

One of my pals (he's on here occasionaly) works for London Underground, is a member of the RMT. Short working week, I think something like 50 days leave, very good pay.

I ask how come they get all that?

"Strong unions"

Some workplaces lend themselves to the staff imposing leverage, many dont. Before we all start rushing to the barracades, take a glance at France. As we all know they love a bit of strike action and are very proud of that tradition. But French industry go to extraordinary lengths not to take on new staff because of industrial relations laws. Even in the boom years French enemployment was rarely below 8%, it just hit 11%. Which is fine if you are employed (often by the state) but bloody awful if you are on the outside looking in. Not much Fraternite there.....

but has strike action ever resulted in any long term benefit to the strikers?

Well… the other string to my bow is I work in film and tv. The UK barely has a union for that workforce, Bectu has a hand in BBC studio staff but the larger freelance diaspora is un-unionised. That means a standard 72hr, 6 day week contract from production companies (compared to the 40 hr 5 day weeks in most of the rest of Europe) no formal arrangements for over time, producers just make it up on the fly. I've never seen more than a quarter of what is apparently standard rate for the work I do. And I've never seen a contract before the last day of filming.

Its a shame really as it doesn't really make for more economical film making, it just makes room for a shambles at the top level, a European production can get as much in the can in 40hrs as a UK can in 72hrs. The European producers and directors that can't plan, resource and schedule a production properly….. come to the UK to shoot.

It used to get better conditions and sometimes better pay for the workers,now most strikes seem to be political, as a way of showing this failed governmnet the workers are not happy,but strangely those striking or threatenening seem to be quite well paid, compared to care workers,skilled trades,shop staff and catering staff.
But then if they ever went on strike, theyd be branded as evil by the media.

The short answer is no, and thatcher proved this with the miners. Unions are a good idea but, like communism, the human condition of greed /capitalism will win through. Striking makes a point but I dont recall it ever winning a battle here.

One of the biggest issues is the golden goose principle that if workers price themselves out of the market, then sooner or later they will be replaced - the best example of course being the dockers, all the strikes in the world wouldn't save their jobs once the shipping container was invented!

The local lads in Felixstowe love the container, £50k for crane operators! Yes please. Those that were left benefitted greatly from huge wage increases all due to a strong dockers union.

The Royal Mail strike has been suspended not cancelled,the management have come back with a better offer, the workers will look at it and vote accordingly 🙂
Without the union we would not have a 39hr week, 6 weeks of holidays+ BHs 6 mths full sick pay, maternity/paternity.
Unity is strength 🙂

Striking is really a last resort, but in this country it seems to be called on a lot, probably because the unions here are so weak. Germany is far more unionised, the unions are much larger and stronger, so they rarely need to call strikes. Workers get much better wages and better protection and quality of life. As a result they're much more productive, and their manufacturing, and in fact, most industries, outperform us, despite having to pay higher wages. They also have an arguably more generous welfare state, yet have been running budget surpluses, but unfortunately our country doesn't seem to want t look at models that actually work, rather than having politicians just making up schemes based on their various biases.

What were pay and conditions like generally prior to unions? What are they like now?

There's your answer.

(how's that for sharing the worlds resources to everyone's advantage)

The short answer is no, and thatcher proved this with the miners. Unions are a good idea but, like communism, the human condition of greed /capitalism will win through. Striking makes a point but I dont recall it ever winning a battle here.

The current state of perilously poor industrial relations can in a large part be traced back to the unforgivable behaviour of the print unions in the 70s and 80s - to say they took the piss is an understatement.

It was standard practice for the "troublesome inkies" on Fleet St to fraudulently claim second salaries in made up names, like Donald Duck. When questioned about these tactics the unions would down tools and walk out without warning.

It was that behaviour that led Murdoch and Thatcher to collude to smash the unions. Of course there is more nuance to teh story than that, but truly the inkies took the piss.

I am a great believer in unions, but I see few examples of unions covering themselves in glory or being constructive or realistic. And I say this as someone who has previously led negotiations with unions.

Does striking work? Unfortunately not.

*I'm now going away to put on my flame retardant suit as I expect dogs abuse for that interpretation of events.

I think it depends on what you mean by "work" - does strike action lead to unions getting a better deal for their members - clearly yes, it does, in many cases lead to unions getting a better deal for their members, the threat is often enough, does it always work, no, is that a surprise, no.

I'm now going away to put on my flame retardant suit as I expect dogs abuse for that interpretation of events.

If it wasn't for Unions you'd be only allowed to wear you best suit and hat.

pleaderwilliams - I think you've got a fairly rose tinted view of unions in Germany - Germany has seen a widespread programme of wage and conditions cuts over the past few years, and particularly in the post unification phase - fully backed by the unions (often in return for jobs guarantees)

The programme of wage moderation actually saw German wages fall by around 4% in real terms through the 2000's

Drac, agreed up to a point.

I was a union member for about 15 years but I got frustrated in meetings when more time was spent discussing what colleagues in Namibia were up to in the great struggle rather than my own great struggle with endlessly being rostered for double shifts etc etc

Sorry, not colleagues, but comrades.

I read somewhere that instead of striking, French train staff let passengers on the trains without tickets.

We went on strike down here in Oz a few years back, and noone at the organisation gave a monkey's. Then, we went back to work, but didn't do any admin, which was far more effective.

Funny how the place carried on fine without the admin, and us scientists had much more time to do our real jobs. You'd have thought management would have learned something there....

So, what are you planning to do with your weekend?

In the long run we are all dead. It is also often impossible to attribute any specific long-term change to a particular action. But I don't think it is unreasonable to believe that various forms of pressure from the workforce has helped to improve their conditions.

I like the idea of middle managers sitting in comfortable, air-conditioned/heated offices, taking time to post on a mountain bike site before heading home at 5pm for the weekend, asking if workers' organisation has ever achieved anything in the long term.

That irony was not lost on me 🙂

There have been a couple of comments above about other forms of industrial action (e.g. not charging for trin tickets, not completing admin) and both of these can be really effective - however in this country, if you break your contract through "partial performance" then an employer can deduct up to 100% of salary, and many do - meaning you may as well be out on strike.

To answer a very specific question about a clear impact of industrial action - in 2006 UCU took industrial action (consisting of strike and a marking boycott) which won a three year deal on pay from the employer on the basis of an inflation + x agreement. There was no industrial action on pay between the end of that agreement and yesterday, and during that time pay has flatlined - and fallen in real terms by around 13%.

It appears that the industrial action was effective in winning concessions, and no industrial action led to suppression of wages it has been described as the most sustain suppression of wages in any profession since WWII by Will Hutton writing in The Observer.

Graph:

Ive not read anybodys posts but I detest Trade Unions. My colleague used to work in the pits and he didnt want to strike, until Arthur Scargills men intimidated him and his family into striking.

The unions wanted to close the Grangemouth Plant.

The unions wont let my girlfriends workplace evlove, siting an unacceptable change in workplace conditions.

Unions want strikes. A bit of hard work and graft might not go a miss and might get the country stated again.

The unions need to realise the country needs to MTFU.

I always think that it is a great pity when relationships between workers and managers/owners are described in terms of relative power etc. Such adversarial relationships are seldom positive ones (to the extent that they exist at all).

IMO owners/managers have to realise that they have three constituents to satisfy - the obvious one (customers) but EQUALLY the providers of capital (shareholders) and their workers. Each should be considered as vital and essentially equal if you are planning LT success. Unfortunataly that is not often the case, with the latter part of the Troika normally coming last in the order of priority.

The extent to which strikes work surely depends on the context. IMO the current climate is not conducive to success as perhaps well illustrated at Grangemouth. The supply of labour generally exceed supply so the owners have the upper hand. If capacity was tight and UN low then the situation would be reversed.

But as I said, thinking along this lines is somewhat depressing albeit a feature of the UK. Unions should have an important part to play in representing the interests of their members. Sadly, I think much of the current activism is misguided especially around pensions. A healthy dose of smelling the coffee and advising members about what needs to be down to prepare for retirement would be much better for the workers than trying to defend the indefensible status quo. Images of King Canute or a giraffe with its neck buried in the sand spring to mind.

The activities at Grangemouth in all sides were are depressing flash black to the 1970s that we could all do without.

What have strikes ever achieved apart from improvements in workplace safety, gender equality, pay and conditions, and the fall of communism, eh?

edward2000 - Member

The unions wanted to close the Grangemouth Plant.

Good troll btw.

I work in America quite a lot, and it's amazing how much anti-union sentiment there is amongst ordinary working people. "Oh that airline is awful because of the unions". "I can't get cheap whojamiflips because of the unions".

I always want to shout at them "YOU GET TEN DAYS HOLIDAY A YEAR!!"

Thanks to our forefathers striking we are free to display our ignorance of the history of industrial relations on a mountain bike forum instead of spending time either working 15 hour shifts in some industrial deathtrap or watching our children slowly die of consumption in some stinking hovel.

This springs to mind - the crippling film critics strike (12m 25s in)

Yes the French stricking now has got us more work, we were getting laid off for so many days until they went on strike and now we aren't. 😆

samcheese - Member

Thanks to our forefathers striking we are free to display our ignorance of the history of industrial relations on a mountain bike forum instead of spending time either working 15 hour shifts in some industrial deathtrap or watching our children slowly die of consumption in some stinking hovel.

Brilliant 🙂

Striking is usually one symptom of poor management, both at a local and cultural level.

[i]Robot welders in car factories, CNC machines instead of lathe operators - all these things happened because there was a tipping point at which it was cheaper to use the machine than a person - and striking for higher wages and better conditions is only going to bring that closer. [/i]

Not totally, as you need to also understand the quality aspect.

Striking has never worked. Skargill closed more pits than Thatcher, as all heavy coal users switched to other power sources once the disruption started.

It is no longer the 15th century and workers can travel to the next village to find work or training. Companies can also travel to the village with the cheapest willing skilled and experienced staff. As a company your duty is to its members, as an employee your duty is to keep up your transferable skills, watch the trends and jump ship if a better job comes up. Lazy companies and staff will always lose out.

The unions would have a chance but even the most hard core bath dodging shop steward still shops at Tesco and Amazon.

striking has never worked?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_matchgirls_strike_of_1888

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_sewing_machinists_strike_of_1968

shirley unions, collective bargaining and striking or the threat of strike have given us the entire breadth of uk labour laws?

stuff like......
Two-day weekends
Eight-hour working days
Maternity leave
Retirement ages
Occupational health and safety
Workplace pensions
Paid holidays
Equality laws
The right not to be sacked because you got married, had a baby, or became ill
Pay increases
The minimum wage
Collective bargaining
The right for the working classes to organise themselves
A standard of living above that of 1850s Britain

I always think that it is a great pity when relationships between workers and managers/owners are described in terms of relative power

Locally I always viewed my rep role as to air the workers feelings with management in an attempt to make it a happier work place for all. No one wants shit bosses and no company wants unhappy poorly motivated workers. In many areas we do want the same things. Honestly I spent more time dealing with angry members making unreasonable demands than I ever did fighting management.
Lovely work samcheesee

Strangely, when I was working for HBOS, officially The Worst Bank In The World and in its death-throes with mass redundancies, loss of bonuses, staff losing fortunes in shares etc... All through that they retained a mostly good relationship with the unions. I had my union rep on speed dial in the runup to my redundancy due to lots of localised nonsense, and it worked like a dream version of employee/union relations:

"Hi, this is Northwind again, some obvious bullshit has occurred"
"Yes, we agree that is obvious bullshit. Leave it with us"
and they would speak to their guys, and their guys would speak to some other guys, and within a day or two, a senior manager or HR person would phone up my boss and resolve the bullshit, usually by virtue of saying "that's obvious illegal bullshit" or "that's the sort of obvious bullshit that will see us get butthurt in court"

Now, sure, the unions were also generally agitating and trying to defend workers' corner in a total losing situation but HBOS mostly didn't seem to lose sight of the fact that there's shared interests, and worked pretty much hand in hand with unions, partly to keep people as happy as possible and partly to avoid needless disputes, bad PR and court cases. And they basically seemed to get the fact that when the unions disagreed with them, there was a reason for it, they weren't just being awkward. In the environment of the time, and with a general environment of hopelessly incompetent and demoralised managers and middle managers, it was a massive deal. Possibly the only thing I ever saw them do right.

Blimey JY, I know it's late but please try and read what I said. I was lamenthing the fact that workers often come third not celebrating it!?!?

But on pensions, I do wish people would be given the proper advice and the opportunity to prepare correctly. This is partly the job of the unions. Clinging on to the unsustainable status quo is frankly absurd especially in the public sector when the gov has already spent your contribution.. The history of Ponzi schemes is well known. Be prepared....striking won't solve the Ponzi pensions.

The last one that came close in my previous job, the unions demanded a 4% pay rise and 6% performance bonus based on performance criteria that would guarantee a full payout. Then there was the other one to save the final salary pension scheme for anyone who hadn't actually left school yet as it was important.

They were on the local radio debating it - well getting laughed at.
Sometimes people take things too far

I know it's late but please try and read what I said.I was lamenthing the fact that workers often come third not celebrating it!?!?

The unsustainable status quo could equally be redressed by taking more from the wealthier two of the troika and giving it to the poorer ones whose plight you lament and help redress this imbalance.