Any examples or case studies where a community was actually persuaded to get out and walk/cycle/bus/share lifts more?
Last night I had a near melt down at another parent, which was final straw in me being frustrated at the usual sh*tty driving standards, parking, entitlement and more - of a set of drivers who ALL travel less than 1mile from extent of Dunblane to practice hall.
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[url= http://onejive.com/a-town-where-everybody-rides-a-bike-since-1898/ ]http://onejive.com/a-town-where-everybody-rides-a-bike-since-1898/[/url]
No, but it did get me thinking this morning as I was driving to work (usually ride but, anyway) A car followed me from near the area where I live and turned off about 1/2 mile away from work. Car share schemes/apps don't work. Every car near enough has 1 person in it when you look, there must be some solution.
It's because it's wrong to fart in someone else's car.
There are car free communities in the netherlands I believe and in Edinburgh there is at least one housing estate where car ownership is banned
BlaBlaCar is successful in France. 1.5 miilion journeys a month and rising.
I'm not sure it is possible without massive local and national government involvement. Not taking the car for short journeys needs to made easy and low hassle. This requires town planning to make sure estates are not out on a limb and hard for public transport to access efficiently. It requires good local amenities. It requires town and road planners actually thinking about walking and cycling rather than expecting people to have to do a 100m diversion to cross a road. The problem that in many towns and cities in the UK it is not just difficult not using a car, it difficult to not use a car!
When all you have is a hammer ...
Being quite a big deal at work, I have my own parking space. Except I don't use it. I've never used it. I get the train to work which takes 10 minutes whereas driving would be half an hour at rush hour.
So I emailed our facilities people to tell them just to release the space for general use. The phrase "does not compute" doesn't even come close to describing the response. Trying to convince them that I don't use it and don't drive to work was unbelievably difficult. If I told them I lived on Mars I would've got a less incredulous response.
Car is king in this country and trying to convince people otherwise is a thankless task
My office has no parking near it, sometimes we get visitors asking for parking so we tell them to park in Sainsbury's nearby. Or fill the meter and watch the time very carefully...
Quite a few people we know think that we're poor and don't drive because they only see us riding bicycles - and are surprised when they find out that we have 2 vehicles and I probably drive 15,000 miles+ a year...
In Harrogate they have big signs saying 'Beat the Queues, Travel in Twos'. However this doesn't help beat the queues, you just spend time stuck in the same queue but with someone you struggle to keep a conversation going with.
Unfortunately we don't have the space in the UK to do what they do in some places in the USA and have dedicated 'Two or More' lanes (yes I know we have some, but not enough).
Zermatt in Switzerland has a no vehicle policy. All locals have to leave their cars in large underground carparks outside town and tourists all arrive on the train (maybe buses to outskirts??). Within the town all the vehicles in use (buses, deliveries etc) are EVs. Tis a nice place to visit for sure, though a bit disconcerting with the lack of typical big town noise.
The trouble as I see it is there is no real joined-up thinking about the problem in this country. Painting a white line down the side of a road does not make a viable bicycle lane for instance.
Some great tweets from the folk of Leeds last night following 5hr closure of the M1 at rush hour and almost total gridlock across most of the city. Many complaining about lack of road investment in the city, like somehow creating more road space and encouraging more cars onto the road will reduce traffic?!
I resisted the urge to respond saying that the traffic did look awful as I cycled past as usual 😀
Many complaining about lack of road investment
It is a common complaint, which is actually true we have not had sufficient road investment. What most people miss unless they travel by another form of transport is that the roads have done much better than any other form of transport where investment has been token at best.
I don't see what the problem is actually. In 10-15 years we'll all be in electric, self-driving cars. Onward from that it will become illegal to drive a car and then eventually you won't even own a car, you'll just summon one from the collective local compound via your communication device to take you where you want to go.
Car clubs are becoming more common, trouble is a lot of people are not very good at sharing.
[quote=tjagain ]in Edinburgh there is at least one housing estate where car ownership is banned
Which ones?
I think the Barbican Estate was built to be car free in the 1960s?
London generally has a very low rate of car ownership too, 70% of households in London have no car vs 25% for the UK I think.
entitlement
What would be an example of entitlement when driving a car?
I dunno - there’s a couple that live down the road from me that drive their daughter to school (same as my boy’s so I see them). The distance from their house to the school is 750m. Sorry, I know that’s not he point of the thread but when you see this happening every day, you really wonder what can be done to change a mindset like that.
They are both keen cyclists as well - she drives the daughter to school then drives back to the house and gets on her bike to ride to work. I can’t quite figure it out. 🙂
yourguitarhero - Member
tjagain » in Edinburgh there is at least one housing estate where car ownership is banned
Which ones?
Slateford Green development according to the Wikipedia link neilwheel posted...
The community of Amsterdam managed it, but it took over 400 children to die from car accidents in one year alone and a bunch of protesting:
It's an interesting story.
Cambridge is as close as I’ve seen in the UK. Bikes outnumber cars.
there’s a couple that live down the road from me that drive their daughter to school (same as my boy’s so I see them). The distance from their house to the school is 750m
My Mum lives within easy walking distance of three well-thought of private secondary schools and a primary school. Many of the pupils of these schools also live in the same area (although there's a significant percentage of the secondary pupils come in from places like Wandsworth, Beckenham & Penge by coach which just adds to the traffic problems).
Every morning, the roads are absolutely solid with 4x4s trying to get as close as possible to the various school gates. The family opposite her house drive their daughter the 600m to the school gates and it takes them 15 minutes.
There has been a shift recently, a noticeable trend away from the Volvo XC90 and Porsche Cayenne (the 4x4 of choice, nothing so crude as a Range Rover) towards Smart Cars, Prius, Nissan Leaf etc and the primary school has been leading a charge towards cargo bikes but that's been offset by an extremely vocal minority shouting about endangering children by putting them in such contraptions.
If only they understood that the reason the children were in any danger is because of the queue of 4x4s...
I'd hazard that Dunblane is a tricky demographic to convince.
A heady mix of entitled middle class Edinburgh and Glasgow commuters and wealthy retirees.
If my experience in the M&S Food car park is anything to go by - good luck with that. 😆
A lot of the reason why cars are more popular in the us and UK than Europe is geographic. We have quite a lot of urban sprawl and cities are less dense in the centre. It makes sense in Amsterdam to take the train into the main station then ride or walk because everything is within a few mile radius. Compare that with Manchester and you have 2 or 3 main
stations, an airport several miles away and the city spreads over quite a few miles.
there was a programme on bbc2 last night where kings Heath high st was 'revolutionized' for a day by replacing parking bays with trees, offering free bus travel and discouraging car use. it can work, but only if the demand is there and good alternatives are available. They've been cycling for years in China.
The Euros love their cars, and use them at every opportunity. But 'some' are prepared to use other less invasive systems of transport as well.
Small steps - I can remember cycling to work 20 years ago and I'd maybe see another cyclist once every 2 or 3 months. Now I see 10-15 cyclist each way everyday.
We have quite a lot of urban sprawl and cities...
I am not entirely sure this is true. Most of the cities I have been to in mainland Europe are pretty sprawling too, and as for the size of city centres most cities have several areas within the city centre.
I am in Hanover at the moment at it is definitely quite sprawling and has bad traffic at rush hour. I think the difference is when Hanover was flattened during the war, unlike the UK towns and cities, it seems to have been planned. There is a good tram system running up the centre of large roads with two lanes in each direction. All over the place the pavements are very wide with room for proper bike lanes. Plus many bike lanes away from traffic.
A big difference is the logical rule that if a bike lane follows parallel to a road it has the same right of way even when on a pavement. Another good rule is that on most back streets there is a priority to right rule this means everyone approaches junctions with care in case there someone about to arrive from the right.
What would be an example of entitlement when driving a car?
Last nights examples, bearing in mind there are 30 parking spaces within 100m, all on same road.
Driving on to pavement outside front door of hall so kid was as close as possible. Never mind they did so perpendicular and between two cars on double yellows, nearly hitting me and three kids. He was then upset that I suggested he should park up road and walk - he paid he car tax and council tax, and they hadn't provided a car park (at 150 year old church hall).
Parking on pavement, as road is double yellow, on blind sharp corner, forcing children to walk on dark road to get past. Again upset that thier child and they would be at risk having to walk on a pavement with so many cars on... 🙄
what I am saying is continental cities are denser ie a lot more high rise and then the countryside is much more sparsely populated. In answer to the question 'why do Brits use a car', this is one reason. obv there are exceptions like the Ruhr and northern Italy and the highlands of Scotland are remote.
I digress - I want to focus on what I can do to start a community moving out of so many cars....
Imagine if everyone on Ramoyle left their handbrakes off...
[url= http://peopleforbikes.org/blog/putting-bentonville-on-the-bicycling-map-interview-with-tim-robinson/ ]Bentonville, Arkansas [/url]
[url= https://www.pinkbike.com/news/the-unlikely-mountain-bike-mecca-of-bentonville-ar-2017.html ]Pinkbike article[/url]
Very off Road focused too
It would create more parking space around the Cathedral... 😆
But the Tappit may also damaged. 🙁
what I am saying is continental cities are denser ie a lot more high rise and then the countryside is much more sparsely populated.
I agree the countryside is frequently more sparsely populated but I don't agree Continental cities are more high rise. I am just thinking across the large towns and small cities I have worked in across Europe of similar size to to towns and cities in the UK, (not big cities as we have a weird balance in the UK with one big city of London and lots of small cities, no medium sized ones) and they are no more / less high rise than uk large towns / small cities. I think within the large town and cities is primarily a case of decades of incredibly poor town planning.
Edinburgh is very densely populated and small in physical size. Any point in the city to any other in 40 mins by bike. It has a highish amount of cycle use for a UK city but pitiful by dutch standards
Edinburgh has hills!
Saying that Cardiff is the flattest city in GB and nt much cycling here either.
Hmm if the folk clogging up Dunblane with their cars left those cars behind they'd be able to spend more time in The Tappit easing congestion and keeping a good pub open. Win/Win.
I digress - I want to focus on what I can do to start a community moving out of so many cars....
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The trouble as I see it is there is no real joined-up thinking about [s]the[/s] any problem in this country
Fixed that for you
This shows how the dutch did it. Before this started they had similar rates of cycling to the UK at that time. cycle use here fell, in the netherlands it rose.
Edinburgh is very densely populated and small in physical size. Any point in the city to any other in 40 mins by bike. It has a highish amount of cycle use for a UK city but pitiful by dutch standards
What I noticed this morning while on the bus* is there are fair few cyclists here**.... and that's the problem. They are not just people on bikes, using a bike as a mode of transport to get about. They are full-on cyclists, all the gear and most with the right idea. I think my point is, cycling to get places is still seen by the public as quite abnormal, rather than normal.
*for far too long time and going nowhere fast
**Edinburgh
I evicted a family of mice from the spare wheel well of my Astra once, not quite a community but close.
Funkmasterp I enjoyed that film. I share a van with a workmate. Possibly the only vehicle with 2 people in I see in the day! Not counting school runners. Eco friendly tradesmen hurray!
johndoh - Member
In Harrogate they have big signs saying 'Beat the Queues, Travel in Twos'.
Explains the amount of tits in cars I suppose.
I don't see what the problem is actually. In 10-15 years we'll all be in electric, self-driving cars. Onward from that it will become illegal to drive a car and then eventually you won't even own a car, you'll just summon one from the collective local compound via your communication device to take you where you want to go.
Won't make a difference, roads will simply be clogged with the same number of self driving cars. Actually more, as they will be driving themselves back to get other pickups instead of spending the day in car parks.
Some government will have to make some unpopular choices at some point in time.
In Harrogate they have big signs saying 'Beat the Queues, Travel in Twos'. However this doesn't help beat the queues, you just spend time stuck in the same queue but with someone you struggle to keep a conversation going with.
Majority of people in Harrogate are elderly, wedded to their cars, and retired, so spending all day sat in a traffic jam is no issue to them.
To fix it, Harrogate needs...
* Congestion charging
* Buses and trains that are affordable (5 min trips on the train > £3)
* Cycling infrastructure. There's none that I've seen despite a fair number of cyclists on the roads.
Hi Matt,
I think there are some good ideas here. I guess you need to check for your local campaign group. Cycling UK or Sustrans or Cyclescape may help, and get talking to the council.
The infrastructure needs to prioritise the bike, which most places don't. That takes time and money.
Bon Chance
dmorts - depends somewhat upon the part of the city. southsiude I see a lot more people on bikes rather than full kit cyclists. You do get folk on bikes in ordinary clothes a fair amount as well - 4 folk cycle regularly to my work - one in cycling kit the rest in including me in ordinary clothes and no helmet.
My Next door neighbour goes everywhere by car, soon her children's legs will drop off. She takes her eldest to school by car.
My next door but one neighbour has a child in the same school (same class) and walks her child to school (unless the weather is awful). These women are both housewives and have the time.
The shops around where we live are independent and about a 5 minute walk away. Neighbour 1. goes in the car, neighbour 2. walks. Aaarrgghhh.
I live about 1km away from my kids school. Easily done on foot or by bike. They are driven to school most days. It is not that I am [i]driving them to school[/i] but more the case that I drop them off as I drive to work. I would love to ride them in but I don't have time to ride them in, ride back home get changed then set off to work. They are too young to walk by themselves. Most people with young kids and full time working parents know that time is always tight, especially in the mornings.
My point is before you judge people for apparently driving their kids to school, perhaps consider what else the person may be doing with their car once they have dropped the kids off.
Frank - 1km = what 12min walking time, is it totally impossible for you to walk too and from school (say 25mins) & then drive to work?
franksinatra - Member
I live about 1km away from my kids school. Easily done on foot or by bike. They are driven to school most days. It is not that I am driving them to school but more the case that I drop them off as I drive to work. I would love to ride them in but I don't have time to ride them in, ride back home get changed then set off to work..
Home to get changed? Into what?
Most of the time there are ways and means to do it, if you really want to do it.
Frank - 1km = what 12min walking time, is it totally impossible for you to walk too and from school (say 25mins) & then drive to work?
Certainly not impossible very difficult.
25 mins 5 times a week equates about 2 hours. I can't drop the kids off at school any earlier so that means turning up at work later. The result is paying for more childcare, either breakfast club at school or after school club. The financial burden then outweighs the benefit.
I have tried organising walking trains but all of the neighbours with kids of a similar age are in the same position, working parents always in a rush.
I don't see what the problem is actually. In 10-15 years we'll all be in electric, self-driving cars
One of the problems is that it will be nothing like as soon as 10-15 years, more like 30 years. So what do you do in the meantime.
One of the problems is that it will be nothing like as soon as 10-15 years, more like 30 years. So what do you do in the meantime.
I disagree. I'd be very surprised if my kids first cars are not electric. I can see introduction of pay per mile vehicle tax with petrol and diesel cars being significantly more expensive to run. There will be a tipping point
Frank - you could park near the school the night before and then still walk them in the morning without loosing any time 😉
Lets not turn this into a why not thread. Am doing me best here in my employer. Stuff we're doing this year
training ride leaders and holding guided commutes in on 'safe' routes
asking people to commit to 1 day per week rather than full time, more achievable and then let them grow into it at their own pace
commuter strava group, looking into seeing if we can get a leaderboard based on number of commutes (distance not relevant in this case)
linking it in to wellbeing and environmental campaigns
Repetition of the message and provision of services/events
partnering with the local big shed cycle retailer to provide vouchers lights etc as incentives and promoting their maintenance services (would also work with LBS's)
We're still too wedded to the convenience of our cars unfortunately and I don't see too much hope coming from the next generation either. For me a bicycle was first and foremost a means of transport, but one son was put off from cycling to school after being labelled "bike boy" and only one of them used one for getting about whilst at uni - and that's from a pretty cycling favourable family 😳
you could park near the school the night before and then still walk them in the morning without loosing any time
Of course I could...
.. if I didn't need my car to ge to athletics club, piano lessons, cubs or attend mountain rescue callouts.
Look, I want to see car reduction as much as the next person. When my kids were pre-school I went 12 months car free, I cycled them to nursery with two in a trailer and one on a tagalong (road train with trailer attached to tag along). I use electric pool cars at work. At the weekends we cycle everywhere we possible can. I know the alternatives and how viable they are for me.
I also know that even if I walked the kids in to school, I will still drive past the school 15mins later when driving to work.
Yes, I probably am too tied to the car, and yes, in my heart of hearts I know I could probably drive fewer shorter journeys. But on the school run thing, for now, it is the right option for us.
franksinatra highlights something that is a real challenge - many of us are in a lifestyle and life choices (commuting etc) that causes real challenges for families.
I do believe that things can change, and there are practical things to be done such as the parking at school area the night before or a boss who understands I am in at 9am not 8:30am etc.
However I cannot impose that on people - they have to me motivated to do it for themselves. A bit like what we did with drink driving a few years back, we need to make sub 1km journeys by car seen as antisocial and unethical...
Yeah but you have to accept that it doesn't work for some people.
Also if you focus on a negative you'll harden attitudes, the push against drink driving was (almost) universally accepted as people were being killed by drunk drivers, [safely - which is everyone perceives that that THEY do] driving to get the paper won't cause anyone to die there and then so the imperative isn't there in the same way.
4 folk cycle regularly to my work - one in cycling kit the rest in including me in ordinary clothes and no helmet.
Sounds promising! South side too, but about as south as you can go. I find the cycle infrastructure is poor in comparison to the north, e.g. the old railway lines
I'd like to ditch the car. I have a 15 mile commute out of town, via the city bypass. However it's 30-40 mins in the car. 1 hour 37 mins (minimum) using public transport, that's bus-train-bus. Bike-train-bike may get that to 50 mins, looking to try that next week.
One thing that is clear is that franksinatra has clearly weighed up his options, thought about it and acts based on what he believes to be the best solution for him in his current situation, also evidenced by previously different behaviour (nursery etc.).
The key bit being missed is that [i]most [/i]people don't do this, they 'just jump in the car', they haven't weighed up the options and acted accordingly, they've just got in the car as it's their entrenched default action.
And it's that that keeps us/society in the position we're in now. We've gone past the point of people making decisions to drive, and into a time when people [i]don't[/i] make that decision. Unless forced, either by intneral or external factors that is unlikely to change.
It wasn't always the default action, and the reasons it has become so are many, but the reason it's hard to change is that it [i]is [/i]now a default. Changing default behaviour is hard to do without an external actor/influence. You could make all the well reasoned and sensible arguments you like to people individually, and they might not even disagree, but there's more to changing a default than that, it needs a decision to change, and that needs a reason.
What that reason needs to be is different for different people. For some it's financial, for some it's emotional, for some it's moral, for some it's convenience, for some it's health etc.
There are so many disincentives to riding. Cars are warm and dry. How many non-hardcore cyclists will cycle when it's cold or windy or raining or dark? And how many people can shower at work? And that's before you get to the cultural factors or the idea that cycling is dangerous.
Anyway, this is about Stevenage which apparently has had a great cycle network forever and no one uses it.: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/sep/19/britains-1960s-cycling-revolution-flopped-stevenage
Cars are warm and dry. How many non-hardcore cyclists will cycle when it's cold or windy or raining or dark?
This is a perfect example of the 'default' effect.
It's raining/windy [i]might [/i]be a valid reason to use the car today, but because it's a default, people will use it tomorrow as well, even if it's lovely and sunny, they won't ever even consider the inverse idea of "It's sunny today so why don't I walk/ride my bike in to work."
Also, contrary to popular belief the Uk isn't [i]that [/i]wet. I commute every day by bike, I can count on just over one hand the times when I've actually gotten properly wet in the last year. This is one of those things that's not actually a reason, but an excuse. And it genuinely is an excuse becasue there are plenty of people who do still walk to work/use the bus/ride a bike in bad weather, and they miraculously don't melt in the rain getting between their front door and work/the bus stops.
So even if bad weather is a good reason to use a car occasioanlly, it's not a good reason why the car gets used for the other 250 odd days a year.
But this goes back to my post above, it's a default behaviour for many, and the only way to change it is with a big enough reason to change. And at the moment using the car is cheap enough, convenient enough, and quick enough that there isn't a motivator for most people.
If traffic was worse and people were genuinely gridlocked for hours they [i]might [/i]start thinking about alternatives
If motoring was hideously expensive they [i]might [/i]start thinking about alternatives
If alternatives were both cheaper, quicker and easier they [i]might [/i]start thinking about alternatives
If people were more aware of the actual effects on health from mass car use they [i]might [/i]start thinking about alternatives
But all of those are 'might's and 'maybe's, and change wont happen until the motivator is big enough for people to [i]decide [/i]to change.
Inertia is certainly a thing.
I wonder what the average cycle commute length is in Amsterdam.
London springs to mind, only because driving anywhere in London during the working day is a great way to kill time.
On a more serious note, similarly congested US cities do rideshare schemes. Because SF is water on three sides there's obviously a limited amount of space in the city, so a colleague uses a car-share scheme from Oakland; essentially he waits at a designated spot and passing registered users that are driving will pick him up if there's space in their car.
I wrote my masters on this subject. I can't be bothered to go into it but it's political. It's not that hard to do. The goal is not to stop car use, they are exceptionally useful modes of transport , it is to use them appropriately , a balance. The balance is clearly wrong right now, but it can be changed, and has been changed in many places
Maybe the government could incentivise employers to incentivise their own employees to ride.
So cyclists get a free coffee, or cyclists get a desk by the window or something. Those unable to ride would need to not suffer penalty though of course.
Matt - is that lethal bit of road design as you come into bridge of allan from the m9 still there? You have a lovely cycle lane on a wide bit of road separated from the cars by a wide crosshatched area which ends before a roundabout and at the roundabout there is a pinch point? Working to improve that junction could be a good aim perhaps?
the push against drink driving was (almost) universally accepted as people were being killed by drunk drivers,
However the evidence of both air pollution AND unhealthy lifestyles is that car culture DOES kill us.
molgrips - MemberMaybe the government could incentivise employers to incentivise their own employees to ride.
So cyclists get a free coffee, or cyclists get a desk by the window or something. Those unable to ride would need to not suffer penalty though of course.
Edinburgh council tried to do that. IIRC it was a small financial incentive. Killed of by the taxman as a taxable benefit
its time, that is the incentive. All the cities that have had success, it is time that is the most important. Cycling across Copenhagen is rush hour is the quickest way to get from A to B. Make is safe (or so that people PERCEIVE it is safe) and its simple, it really is.
cost, weather, incentives like coffee, health , status, they all play a role, but time is the crucial factor.
7-8km is optimum distance in Europe is seems IIRC, over that, people start to turn to the car or other modes.
My OH hats bikes (understandable, she has to live with me). But rode an e-bike for the first time a fortnight ago and has since been badgering me to sort out my BC membership so she can get one on discount from halfords.
She could ride a normal bike (or walk, it'd still only take an hour where it could easily be 30-40min at rush hour by car) but I think e-bikes appeal as transport rather than as a hobby/exercise.
I think we need more carrots and less sticks too. £500 car tax or £60 weekly tanks of petrol don't seem to have any effect. Maybe swap the cycle2work scheme for a pence/mile rebate on council tax. The former is still a ~£700 cost to the individual and ~£300 to HMRC but wouldn't £300 for cycling 2miles each way for a year be a better investment?
Edinburgh council tried to do that. IIRC it was a small financial incentive. Killed of by the taxman as a taxable benefit
That's why it needs to be top level government.
Living in an old residential village which is basically a road with houses down each side ad no pavement but with a large and popular secondary/6th form school down the bottom the parents pee me off something chronic!
They are the ones that speed (as little billy is late) or are on their phones or drive to close to the school kids walking along the road or try to overtake when it's not safe and stop on the zig zags etc etc.
we need a 500m parent car exclusion zone around the school.
As for commuting - I would love to and if I go permanent at my current place I will probably try splitting my commute to 10-15 mile drive, dump the car somewhere not antisocial - eg layby away from houses and then cycle the remaining 10 miles. My commute is particularly nasty with some steep exposed climbs and 50/60mph roads in that first 10-15 miles that I wouldnt want to ride.
But it would still be cheaper for me to just buy a Leaf than drive me diesel car that 10-15 miles each way and a lot less faff. I would greatly benefit from the health effects of cycling 20 miles a day though so might just do it for those reasons.
Cardiff does have some plans to improve things...there is at least an understanding in the council that things have to change. A couple of bike routes are at the planning stage...the council have just started recruitment process for a specialist cycling engineer. How far will this initiative get...who knows...but worth showing the politicians behind it support.
We can help make it easier for politicians to support it by constantly asking them for better cycling and walking facilities and complaining about antisocial driving, speeding, pavement/cyclelaneblocking air pollution.
